Is crit useless on glaives? How to build it?

[Kaleidoomscope]

When I play Glaive Prime I do one of:

1. direct throw attack

2. dual wield, throw and press E to detonate the glaive

 

Both seem to guarantee a yellow number damage (like the normal crit)  and Organ Shatter which increase crit dmg by 90% has no effect on those numbers at all. Even when I used Power Throw and Quick Return and hit a wall to let it explode there is no difference with and  without Organ Shatter.

 

So are Crit Chance and Crit Damage really useless on Glaives? But since detonation guarantees a status proc wouldn't status chance be useless also?

And what could be an optimal build for Glaive (including riven)? 

 

Thank you for helping.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Kaleidoomscope

[taiiat]

Thrown Melee due to being a Melee Weapon, is apt for getting Stealth Multipliers. so what you're seeing with your Glaive, is a Stealth Multiplier. Crits are calculated separately from that.
are Crits useful? they can be. it's your choice.

'optimal' for a Thrown Melee is 'it depends'. good Status Chance is desirable, but you don't need to have max or anything.
Glaive only forces Slash on Throw contact, and Blast on detonation - there's far more that you could do with Status than that.

Crits can be useful, but you don't need to have them. Crits kinda necessitates a Riven though, otherwise the Crits are not going to come into play on the Throws much.

 

the only standout must haves IMO as someone that uses Glaive probably 40-50% of my Equip time for Melee Weapons, is....
Power Throw because otherwise your Throw doesn't have Punch-Through. that's the only reason left to use it but it's an important reason to be able to deal with larger numbers of Enemies better.
some Attack Speed is useful since it seems to apply to the Throw thesedays, making the Weapon more responsive overall. Glaive Prime w/ Primed Fury is also right about perfect for speed when using the Stance too IMO (Astral Twighlight that is, if you use Gleaming Talon your preferences may differ).

[Kaleidoomscope]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Thrown Melee due to being a Melee Weapon, is apt for getting Stealth Multipliers. so what you're seeing with your Glaive, is a Stealth Multiplier. Crits are calculated separately from that.
are Crits useful? they can be. it's your choice.

'optimal' for a Thrown Melee is 'it depends'. good Status Chance is desirable, but you don't need to have max or anything.
Glaive only forces Slash on Throw contact, and Blast on detonation - there's far more that you could do with Status than that.

Crits can be useful, but you don't need to have them. Crits kinda necessitates a Riven though, otherwise the Crits are not going to come into play on the Throws much.

 

the only standout must haves IMO as someone that uses Glaive probably 40-50% of my Equip time for Melee Weapons, is....
Power Throw because otherwise your Throw doesn't have Punch-Through. that's the only reason left to use it but it's an important reason to be able to deal with larger numbers of Enemies better.
some Attack Speed is useful since it seems to apply to the Throw thesedays, making the Weapon more responsive overall. Glaive Prime w/ Primed Fury is also right about perfect for speed when using the Stance too IMO (Astral Twighlight that is, if you use Gleaming Talon your preferences may differ).

First, thank you very much for your reply. I am still confused about how crit can be useful on it, could you explain more about it?

 

The riven I have is +crit chance +crit damage +melee damage and - slide crit (this is why I worry about crits so much).

And the other 7 mods: Primed Fever Strike, Primed Pressure Point, Power Throw, Voltaic Strike, Conditional Overload, Organ Shatter, Buzz Kill

 

Would you give me any suggestion on improving my build if you have time? Thanks. 

[Tyreaus]

56 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Power Throw because otherwise your Throw doesn't have Punch-Through. that's the only reason left to use it but it's an important reason to be able to deal with larger numbers of Enemies better.

One thing to clarify is that dual-wielded charge-throws do have Punch Through. They won't pass through Lancer shields, but throwing it over their head and detonating is usually more than enough to handle them.

37 minutes ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

The riven I have is +crit chance +crit damage +melee damage and - slide crit (this is why I worry about crits so much).

And the other 7 mods: Primed Fever Strike, Primed Pressure Point, Power Throw, Voltaic Strike, Conditional Overload, Organ Shatter, Buzz Kill

I'm guessing you're intending on exclusively throwing, e.g. with dual wielding or melee charge attacks, right?

Because of new changes to melee potentially capping CO at 3 statuses, and the guaranteed impact + slash procs (plus blast on detonate) when thrown, additional status procs aren't going to be as important. You may be able to drop Voltaic Strike for a 90 elemental if you can manage the mod capacity. It's not the biggest change and if you've already forma'd for voltaic, I wouldn't worry about putting in the effort. Likewise, Buzz Kill is sub-optimal for Glaive Prime's stat distribution (you tend to want >75% slash, and not only is Glaive Prime below that at 70%, its guaranteed slash procs mean you don't have to worry a lot about trying to mod for slash procs). Another 90 elemental would be more effective, and at least that one you can swap out without polarizing.

The CO cap is also where crit is going to shine, because Glaive Prime's 3 guaranteed procs maxes out Condition Overload. That means you might as well mod up as much damage and crit as you can, because extra status won't do a great deal to your damage output.

I would also, personally, lean toward viral over corrosive if you decide to crit-focus rather than status: the odd chance that viral procs means your guaranteed slash procs are doing double the damage, and because the explosion is a second instance of damage, you have two damage ticks that can proc viral.

And as I kind of mentioned above, whether you add in Power Throw depends on your dual-wielding preferences. I use dual-wield all the time and get the punch through on the charge attack a vast majority of the time, so the extra punch through isn't useful for me. You might want to swap it out for Primed Fury if you aren't running a melee-attack-speed-buffing Warframe (if you are, then I would suggest not to, since it can and will mess with your throw timing very badly and can get genuinely glitchy), since it affects charge times, which means a higher attack rate and greater DPS.

IDK if that helps but if you have more questions, lemme know!

[Kaleidoomscope]

30 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

One thing to clarify is that dual-wielded charge-throws do have Punch Through. They won't pass through Lancer shields, but throwing it over their head and detonating is usually more than enough to handle them.

I'm guessing you're intending on exclusively throwing, e.g. with dual wielding or melee charge attacks, right?

Because of new changes to melee potentially capping CO at 3 statuses, and the guaranteed impact + slash procs (plus blast on detonate) when thrown, additional status procs aren't going to be as important. You may be able to drop Voltaic Strike for a 90 elemental if you can manage the mod capacity. It's not the biggest change and if you've already forma'd for voltaic, I wouldn't worry about putting in the effort. Likewise, Buzz Kill is sub-optimal for Glaive Prime's stat distribution (you tend to want >75% slash, and not only is Glaive Prime below that at 70%, its guaranteed slash procs mean you don't have to worry a lot about trying to mod for slash procs). Another 90 elemental would be more effective, and at least that one you can swap out without polarizing.

The CO cap is also where crit is going to shine, because Glaive Prime's 3 guaranteed procs maxes out Condition Overload. That means you might as well mod up as much damage and crit as you can, because extra status won't do a great deal to your damage output.

I would also, personally, lean toward viral over corrosive if you decide to crit-focus rather than status: the odd chance that viral procs means your guaranteed slash procs are doing double the damage, and because the explosion is a second instance of damage, you have two damage ticks that can proc viral.

And as I kind of mentioned above, whether you add in Power Throw depends on your dual-wielding preferences. I use dual-wield all the time and get the punch through on the charge attack a vast majority of the time, so the extra punch through isn't useful for me. You might want to swap it out for Primed Fury if you aren't running a melee-attack-speed-buffing Warframe (if you are, then I would suggest not to, since it can and will mess with your throw timing very badly and can get genuinely glitchy), since it affects charge times, which means a higher attack rate and greater DPS.

IDK if that helps but if you have more questions, lemme know!

Thank you very much sir,

That really helps because I use dual wielding detonation the majority of times, and that seems better than power throw+quick return.

 

So I am considering a build of:

Riven: +97.1 cc +203% melee dmg +110% cd -80% slide crit

Primed Fever Strike, North Wind, Primed Pressure Point, Conditional Overload, Organ Shatter

 

That leaves me 2 slots to choose. The area of explosion seems more than enough to me so I am not really considering Power Throw.

True Steel adds only 60% cc and the riven already has cc so this mod does not add much value. Should I go for radiation then?

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Kaleidoomscope said:

True Steel adds only 60% cc and the riven already has cc so this mod does not add much value. Should I go for radiation then?

IMO I don't think Radiation will help a ton, since it is more of a CC element and you have that in spades with Blast - assuming you detonate on targets, at least. The timing's tricky, I won't lie. The 60% CC isn't great, but every little bit does add up, especially if you've got a large CD multiplier.

You may want to consider waiting on investing any forma into a build until the melee rework drops sometime next week as well. Build how you can with what you have right now. I think they mentioned something about Glaive throws adding to the combo counter, at which point Blood Rush becomes very spicy as a crit booster. But if it's considered a heavy attack, or if the charged throw specifically is considered a heavy attack, that could change things as well. For example, they say that Killing Blow buffs heavy attacks. Does that count regular Glaive throws? Glaive charge throws? Both? Not sure.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

The riven I have is +crit chance +crit damage +melee damage and - slide crit (this is why I worry about crits so much).

And the other 7 mods: Primed Fever Strike, Primed Pressure Point, Power Throw, Voltaic Strike, Conditional Overload, Organ Shatter, Buzz Kill

you can replace Buzz Kill with another Elemental. outside of that it looks fine for your Throw only goals, if you want to use Crits.
Sacrificial Steel is ofcourse an option, which is potentially desirable, for consistent Weakpoint Crits.

3 hours ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

Riven: +97.1 cc +203% melee dmg +110% cd -80% slide crit
Primed Fever Strike, North Wind, Primed Pressure Point, Conditional Overload, Organ Shatter

That leaves me 2 slots to choose. The area of explosion seems more than enough to me so I am not really considering Power Throw.
Should I go for radiation then?

Viral is fine too, sure. whichever Damage Types suit your situations - as the only thing to note outside of matching situations is that Radiation Status can let your Glaive get Stealth Multipliers more often, even right in the middle of combat.
though, not pushing Status up to pair with Viral, does leave something on the table.

so you could do Rad/Viral i suppose. currently it's equally as important to pick Damage Types that are useful but also not what your Guns already have, for use with Condition Overload.
we'll... see if they nerf that aspect of the game into AFKFarming levels of zero mechanics, though.

not having Power Throw will hurt you, but it's your decision. i wouldn't be using it if i didn't need to have it Equipped, i'd love to drop it for something more related to Damage (in a situation that my Throws can get PT without it).

 

there's certainly a lot of potential to offer from a Glaive ofcourse though, whether as a Melee Weapon or as a Gun that you throw.
here's a couple spur of the moment Screenshots i took a while ago (before Nightwave was added i think, heh), as a worst case scenario of sorts. since i keep Rad/Ice on my Glaive, and don't even use full Elementals. Damage Types which Infested are resistant to. and even so:

since your Riven lets you do better things with Crits than mine does, you could have quite the potential when it comes to Weakpoint Crits. as those hits shown weren't Crits.

 

 

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

One thing to clarify is that dual-wielded charge-throws do have Punch Through. They won't pass through Lancer shields, but throwing it over their head and detonating is usually more than enough to handle them.

yes, 'Dual Wielding' does allow you to have PT, though that's not all Weapon situations and since Dual Wielding is a downgrade to have now that we have instant switch... i'm not excited about having it anyways.
would sooner see the 'feature' just be deleted (or integrated into Glaives innately as a default feature and still deleting 'Dual Wielding') because it's been superceded.

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I think they mentioned something about Glaive throws adding to the combo counter, at which point Blood Rush becomes very spicy as a crit booster.

assuming that Glaive Throws suddenly become able to use Blood Rush, that is.

[Tyreaus]

31 minutes ago, taiiat said:

yes, 'Dual Wielding' does allow you to have PT, though that's not all Weapon situations and since Dual Wielding is a downgrade to have now that we have instant switch... i'm not excited about having it anyways.
would sooner see the 'feature' just be deleted (or integrated into Glaives innately as a default feature and still deleting 'Dual Wielding') because it's been superceded.

I wouldn't call it a downgrade, at least in its current implementation - it gives access to charged throws that have over double the damage and increased crit chance, crit damage, status chance, and explosion radius stats; works with mid-air throws that can be done at any angle, even straight down; and doesn't require an initial swing. And some people may prefer the stance difference, though that's more subjective.

It would be nice to have those things implemented in the new melee system, where holding regular attack performs a regular throw and holding heavy attack performs a charged throw with those advantages listed above (so that the timing glitches with excessive attack speeds don't remain a thing - it can flat out cancel throws sometimes).

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

assuming that Glaive Throws suddenly become able to use Blood Rush, that is.

Naturally.

[taiiat]

42 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I wouldn't call it a downgrade

And some people may prefer the stance difference, though that's more subjective.

It would be nice to have those things implemented in the new melee system, where holding regular attack performs a regular throw and holding heavy attack performs a charged throw with those advantages listed above (so that the timing glitches with excessive attack speeds don't remain a thing - it can flat out cancel throws sometimes).

i would, simply because before we gained features but didn't lose any. but instant switch means that you always have easy access to your Melee Weapon so 'Dual Wielding' means you... lose access to it.
that's just kinda dumb. i like the features that it brought in, but the majority of the reason it was brought over has been made obsolete by that QoL aspect that is instant switch. related to Stats, only the extra Damage and PT are significant, the minor Crit/Status increases are... hardly worth mentioning. 

i can't imagine how not having access to your Melee Stance would be seen as a positive. that's... just objectively a con.

doesn't need to be multiple buttons as far as i'm concerned, with very high Attack Speed my experiences has been that doing a normal Throw just automatically does a Charge Throw(because of Attack Speed now affecting the Charge Speed), rather than preventing you from doing it. which was quite convenient, to say the least.

[Tyreaus]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i would, simply because before we gained features but didn't lose any. but instant switch means that you always have easy access to your Melee Weapon so 'Dual Wielding' means you... lose access to it.
that's just kinda dumb. i like the features that it brought in, but the majority of the reason it was brought over has been made obsolete by that QoL aspect that is instant switch. related to Stats, only the extra Damage and PT are significant, the minor Crit/Status increases are... hardly worth mentioning. 

I feel we'd have to agree to disagree in that case, because I don't think there's much ability to compare things like increased damage to stance changes, e.g.:

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i can't imagine how not having access to your Melee Stance would be seen as a positive. that's... just objectively a con.

I kind of like the dual wield stance a bit more because it has a circular AoE more often than Astral Twilight and I think procs knockdown, or something to that effect. Does that make it the better "stance" (since it's not really a stance)? Does that make it worse? They seem like different beasts with different use-cases. Does the fact that we can still switch to primary weapons and get the melee stance back at any moment factor into things? Moreover, does that combined with the damage increase and punch through on the throw make it better than the standard melee stance without those things? When comparisons start to pit things like more damage versus melee stance, waters get muddied.

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

doesn't need to be multiple buttons as far as i'm concerned, with very high Attack Speed my experiences has been that doing a normal Throw just automatically does a Charge Throw(because of Attack Speed now affecting the Charge Speed), rather than preventing you from doing it. which was quite convenient, to say the least.

It may be a framerate issue, but with Primed Fury plus Wisp's 1 I've had varying results from "only doing the regular throw" to "cancelling the throw altogether", especially in Orb Vallis. If it were consistent in doing the charge throw, I'd be for that. Not so much if it remains buggy, however.