Make Conclave Fast Again! (And add Aim Assist to make it engaging)

[Tachmag]

22 minutes ago, ByroSphere said:

My profile doesn’t say much, because I’m a returning player starting from scratch. There is not much skillful dodging, other than jumping and rolling at random spots. Newbes are about as hard to tag as veterans when on the move. The only difference there, is that veterans don’t slow down nearly as often, because they have polished their aim enough to work with the speed.

There is also the weapon dynamic which affects my judgement for the need of aim assist for some weapons. Snipers and other high damage single shot weapons, works fine as they do, because although it’s hard to hit often, it’s still pretty viable to hit an opponent “sometimes”, while these single shot weapons got high DP to kill on those “sometimes”, while it’s mostly those types of weapons that I see veterans using.

Weapons like machineguns or rifles however, are too underperforming on today’s meta, even when they should be stat wise  be balanced compared to every other weapon class. And that’s because the high fire rate/low damage pershot dynamic, does not work in a game where the average players will only hit “sometimes”. So why not fix those weapon types in a way that they could work, without turning them op with buffs/nerfing everything else? Why do we have to  nerf the whole way we move in this the game, when some weapons simply needs to become more viable than they currently are?

The fact that this is a PC game matters not, multihit weapons are underperforming because they can’t reliably hit multiple times. Not even veterans who have polished their aim will bother to use rifle types much, because snipers makes their great skill already that much more lethal.

So why not make it (as in the rifles) beginner friendly and viable with aim assist?

Autos are bad because they are inaccurate af. They can't do their job reliably because even if you were to have your crosshair perfectly on target, every auto no called the Baza will lose out on a lot of damage due to inaccuracy. If DE wants autos to be useful, they should buff their accuracy.

In contrast, you have beam weapons. Who have perfect accuracy and due to that kill faster than autos even though on paper their dps is much lower.

 

[ByroSphere]

Just now, Tachmag said:

Autos are bad because they are inaccurate af. They can't do their job reliably because even if you were to have your crosshair perfectly on target, every auto no called the Baza will lose out on a lot of damage due to inaccuracy. If DE wants autos to be useful, they should buff their accuracy.

In contrast, you have beam weapons. Who have perfect accuracy and due to that kill faster than autos even though on paper their dps is much lower.

 

Even with better accuracy stats, the average rifle wouldn’t do much better than now, because the average player accuracy sucks. While players who got good aim rarely use automatic weapons, so even if they use those weapons decently, they mostly likely just dump them for any random sniper or bow, or even shotguns or other AoE weapons that does auto weapons’ role much better.

What auto weapons needs is not a“paper accuracy” buff, but a practical accuracy buff. Even if we say no to a functional aim assit, I’d bet that a wider but more concentrated bullet burst + higher ammo count (bassically turning them into rapid firing shotguns) would do better than a simple stat boost.

[Tachmag]

3 hours ago, ByroSphere said:

Even with better accuracy stats, the average rifle wouldn’t do much better than now, because the average player accuracy sucks. While players who got good aim rarely use automatic weapons, so even if they use those weapons decently, they mostly likely just dump them for any random sniper or bow, or even shotguns or other AoE weapons that does auto weapons’ role much better.

What auto weapons needs is not a“paper accuracy” buff, but a practical accuracy buff. Even if we say no to a functional aim assit, I’d bet that a wider but more concentrated bullet burst + higher ammo count (bassically turning them into rapid firing shotguns) would do better than a simple stat boost.

Then the average player needs to learn how to aim. If DE stopped making Catchmoons and Ignises top tier weapons and made weapons that require accuracy top tier, then maybe the average accuracy would be higher.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Tachmag
bmade a typo

[ByroSphere]

38 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

Then the average player needs to learn how to aim. If DE stopped making Catchmoons and Ignises top tier weapons and bmade weapons that require accuracy top tier, then maybe the average accuracy would be higher.

I don’t see how removing guns that doesn’t take much skill to be used effectively, would encourage people to aim better. While even if we say that it somehow does, it wouldn’t make auto weapons any less underperforming.

It’s already one shot weapons role to be all about precision, to be so much more reliant on player accuracy. If you want a diverse game where not everybody plays like a sniper, then the other weapons mustn’t work like the sniper.

 I mean, not even in cover shooters, which is where most of this anti aim assist comes from, demands auto weapons to be as accurate or skill bound as the snipers. They are simply supposed to be the rapid shooting gun that compensates low damage per bullets and low precision for a more rapid spread out of shots with a more constant dealing of dps.

The Warframe autos have simply failed, cause as said, they have nothing that makes the player hit targets reliably often (which is what none precision assault weapons are supposed to be about). They are not snipers so they shouldn’t have the same skill requirements, but in this game they somehow still do, even though they are not good for the same role.

[Tachmag]

2 hours ago, ByroSphere said:

I don’t see how removing guns that doesn’t take much skill to be used effectively, would encourage people to aim better. While even if we say that it somehow does, it wouldn’t make auto weapons any less underperforming.

It’s already one shot weapons role to be all about precision, to be so much more reliant on player accuracy. If you want a diverse game where not everybody plays like a sniper, then the other weapons mustn’t work like the sniper.

 I mean, not even in cover shooters, which is where most of this anti aim assist comes from, demands auto weapons to be as accurate or skill bound as the snipers. They are simply supposed to be the rapid shooting gun that compensates low damage per bullets and low precision for a more rapid spread out of shots with a more constant dealing of dps.

The Warframe autos have simply failed, cause as said, they have nothing that makes the player hit targets reliably often (which is what none precision assault weapons are supposed to be about). They are not snipers so they shouldn’t have the same skill requirements, but in this game they somehow still do, even though they are not good for the same role.

Do this:for a month, instead of dedicating yourself to play PvE, use that time to learn to play PvP a little better. Then, come back to this post and check if you still believe aim assist is the solution.

[ByroSphere]

2 minutes ago, Tachmag said:

Do this:for a month, instead of dedicating yourself to play PvE, use that time to learn to play PvP a little better. Then, come back to this post and check if you still believe aim assist is the solution.

Alright, so it's a month + the 2 years I had previously played? Look, Warframe is a looter shooter game with many game modes besides the conclave. If a game mode is particularly hard, unless it has some really good rewards, the general reaction here tends to be to skip it, not try hard till they get good. Not saying that I'm personally like that, but when the idea is to encourage others to join in, I can't just think about what I'm willing to compromise with.

I think that the auto weapons at the very least could use aim assist, all so that it can use it's technical advantages. Player skill wont change it, because that skill is not tied to the weapon, and if you are not tied to a weapon you can always use the better one, with the former one remaining bad.

But if the idea is to just keep the Conclave gameplay wise as is but still bring more players, then I guess the push should be more into improving the rewards to maintain the spirit of looting. Maybe then people will try to get good instead of just doing something else.

[ByroSphere]

In either case, I really just find it so strange how people can prefer nerfing the mobility´(which is one of the main hights of this game) to the point that it doesn't feel as fun anymore, instead of giving a underperforming weapon class aim assist... I just can't understand. Isn't it supposed to be fun in the end? 

[ixidron92]

hace 4 horas, Tachmag dijo:

Do this:for a month, instead of dedicating yourself to play PvE, use that time to learn to play PvP a little better. Then, come back to this post and check if you still believe aim assist is the solution.

You know, I hate that S**ty argument, and no matter what you're talking about, it always pops up, in every discussion, anywhere. Next time you wanna criticize the government, come back after you've had presidential experience.

I'm sorry, but I've seen comments like those in dozens of forums and discussions and I really have no patience left to explain to people who wouldn't be happy unless the top one of the world come down and told them in the face that the system is crap and needs a major rework, why their argument is just one of the many logical fallacies that sound good but mean jack sh*t in a debate.

hace 3 horas, ByroSphere dijo:

In either case, I really just find it so strange how people can prefer nerfing the mobility´(which is one of the main hights of this game) to the point that it doesn't feel as fun anymore, instead of giving a underperforming weapon class aim assist... I just can't understand. Isn't it supposed to be fun in the end? 

Because it works in other games. That's why. Aim assist is just a clutch. People need to be able to hit stuff, and aim assist is not the way to do it, it's a literal cheat and players dislike it. People will attribute every kill to lack of skill and AI assistance instead of skill and there will be #*!%ing riots. You're not fixing a problem, you're creating another one. At least, if mobility is up to standard with other games, projectile weapons will have a chance, because you know what? Assault rifles are 10 times better that the ignis or the arca plasmor or whatever other AoE weapons in terms of raw damage per shot and overall DPS, and once you can actually hit something with a rifle, you can learn the game, acquire experience and learn to aim, which is the opposite of what you can do with aim assist or the current system.

right now, people get in, see other people zooming around, dodging everything and spamming AoE, miss all their shots, quit and don't even bother coming back.

What you're proposing will turn the experience into the following: Noob gets in, someone snipes him full auto from across the map, newbie blames the stupid built in aimbot, quits and doesn't try again, because, yeah, when you give everyone aimbot, it all boils down to who knows how to abuse it better. And know what? aimbot sucks for projectile and short range weapons. Specters have aimbot, give them a projectile weapons and watch the miss every shot.  People who want to use bows will rage because the built in aim assist is screwing with their shots, and people who get shot from across the map will rage because other people are making impossible shots thanks to a freaking computer program and not their own skill.

In the end, computer assisted aiming only degrades skill and makes everyone mad.

Edited October 28, 2019 by ixidron92

[ByroSphere]

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

You know, I hate that S**ty argument, and no matter what you're talking about, it always pops up, in every discussion, anywhere. Next time you wanna criticize the government, come back after you've had presidential experience.

I'm sorry, but I've seen comments like those in dozens of forums and discussions and I really have no patience left to explain to people who wouldn't be happy unless the top one of the world come down and told them in the face that the system is crap and needs a major rework, why their argument is just one of the many logical fallacies that sound good but mean jack sh*t in a debate.

Because it works in other games. That's why. Aim assist is just a clutch. People need to be able to hit stuff, and aim assist is not the way to do it, it's a literal cheat and players dislike it. People will attribute every kill to lack of skill and AI assistance instead of skill and there will be #*!%ing riots. You're not fixing a problem, you're creating another one. At least, if mobility is up to standard with other games, projectile weapons will have a chance, because you know what? Assault rifles are 10 times better that the ignis or the arca plasmor or whatever other AoE weapons in terms of raw damage per shot and overall DPS, and once you can actually hit something with a rifle, you can learn the game, acquire experience and learn to aim, which is the opposite of what you can do with aim assist or the current system.

right now, people get in, see other people zooming around, dodging everything and spamming AoE, miss all their shots, quit and don't even bother coming back.

What you're proposing will turn the experience into the following: Noob gets in, someone snipes him full auto from across the map, newbie blames the stupid built in aimbot, quits and doesn't try again, because, yeah, when you give everyone aimbot, it all boils down to who knows how to abuse it better. And know what? aimbot sucks for projectile and short range weapons. Specters have aimbot, give them a projectile weapons and watch the miss every shot.  People who want to use bows will rage because the built in aim assist is screwing with their shots, and people who get shot from across the map will rage because other people are making impossible shots thanks to a freaking computer program and not their own skill.

In the end, computer assisted aiming only degrades skill and makes everyone mad.

Specters may have aimbot, but they don’t have the accuracy of a mouse. Most players are capable of following a target with their sights, what they generally suck at is to compensate lack of natural speed with pinpoint accuracy.

If aim assist exsted for the low damage pershot auto weapons, all it would do is reduce the skill requirement from needing to be pixel accurate, to just cursor accurate. Snipers would still remain the better weapon for aces even if only auto weapons got aim assist, because snipers would still kill you faster if you were skilled enough to aim with it (which most veterans already are). Auto Weapons simply would become more viable and beginner friendly, but it’s downside of having low dps in bursts, would still balance it out with the other weapon classes.

I know that this works, because I have experience of playing games that solve the issue of relative high speed with better practical accuracy, and some of them only give aim assist to low damage but high fire rate weapons, all so that they can counter high damage single shot weapons who are more player accuracy reliant. Aim Assist is more than a clutch when it has been proven to work in multiple games, you just gotta look outside of that 1 game genre were it’s uncommon.

Also as far as slowing the playstyle down is concerned, we already had it once. And although it kinda did make even the auto weapons more useful, this slowdown also made the game more stale, because people were relaying on the aim glide more than everything. Everyone was using about the same tactics there and that felt boring. Now that it’s fast, even though the dodging isn’t that skill demanding, people where shown to be more innovative in how they manuever around with the ADS aimgliding restrictsion, and although I was getting my bum kicked more than usual, it just felt so dang cool to see those sick changes in moves, plus the general rush of power that this speed general gives the players. It’s just that newbs have no way to reliably hit their opponents, even when veteran aces already have their ideal weapon class, which means only veterans gets to enjoy any considerable kills with weapons that suits them.

The idea to slow Conclave down because “slow playstyles work in other games”, is no excuse when there also exist fast games that works. Again, why not use other games that have solved the speed issue without slowing down, as an example, instead of games who are slow by nature?

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-10-27 at 1:26 PM, ByroSphere said:

Just wanted to note that it seems like they made Conclave fast again. And I gotta say, it feels awesomely fast! There just are little things that can compare to the rush that this neatly smooth mobility fills me in the soul!

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37 minutes ago, ByroSphere said:

...

Also as far as slowing the playstyle down is concerned, we already had it once. And although it kinda did make even the auto weapons more useful, this slowdown also made the game more stale, because people were relaying on the aim glide more than everything. Everyone was using about the same tactics there and that felt boring. Now that it’s fast

...

🤨

Not sure what you're on about, but the way mobility is handled in the Conclave hasn't changed in years.

Also, autos are viable weapons already. Proper tracking is quite demanding, especially against the faster frames, but it can definitely be learned.

[ByroSphere]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

🤨

Not sure what you're on about, but the way mobility is handled in the Conclave hasn't changed in years.

Also, autos are viable weapons already. Proper tracking is quite demanding, especially against the faster frames, but it can definitely be learned.

It can be learned, but the current atmosphere is not very beginner friendly. While the aim that an assault have, should not be as skill demanding as a sniper, who rewards high recoil/low fire rate/low/ammo/reload time with very high precision and damage pershot.

You say that the game hasn’t changed in years, but in the last week I noticed a big change from how the was played when it was slowed down vs when it was fast. People naturally use the ADS and aimgliding, but when the game was slow, aim glide was spammed more often by everyone in the match. While ehen the game became fast again, aim glide was still used, but instead of moving in straight lines, more people used jump cancels or aim cancels to manuever around in multiple ways.

My thesis as for why, is because the aim glide in slow gameplay is not punished nearly as much as when the game is fast. When everything is fast, you will die if you are too predictable, so you are forced to be more creative with how you move (not much mechanical skill, but I guess there is tactical ones). But when the game is slow, then the way to move that grants you the most accuracy will be the most effective.

Would rather choose one that requires you to manuever in multiple ways, than one where aim gliding alone is good enough to be decent.

[ixidron92]

hace 2 horas, ByroSphere dijo:

Specters may have aimbot, but they don’t have the accuracy of a mouse. Most players are capable of following a target with their sights, what they generally suck at is to compensate lack of natural speed with pinpoint accuracy.

If aim assist exsted for the low damage pershot auto weapons, all it would do is reduce the skill requirement from needing to be pixel accurate, to just cursor accurate. Snipers would still remain the better weapon for aces even if only auto weapons got aim assist, because snipers would still kill you faster if you were skilled enough to aim with it (which most veterans already are). Auto Weapons simply would become more viable and beginner friendly, but it’s downside of having low dps in bursts, would still balance it out with the other weapon classes.

I know that this works, because I have experience of playing games that solve the issue of relative high speed with better practical accuracy, and some of them only give aim assist to low damage but high fire rate weapons, all so that they can counter high damage single shot weapons who are more player accuracy reliant. Aim Assist is more than a clutch when it has been proven to work in multiple games, you just gotta look outside of that 1 game genre were it’s uncommon.

Also as far as slowing the playstyle down is concerned, we already had it once. And although it kinda did make even the auto weapons more useful, this slowdown also made the game more stale, because people were relaying on the aim glide more than everything. Everyone was using about the same tactics there and that felt boring. Now that it’s fast, even though the dodging isn’t that skill demanding, people where shown to be more innovative in how they manuever around with the ADS aimgliding restrictsion, and although I was getting my bum kicked more than usual, it just felt so dang cool to see those sick changes in moves, plus the general rush of power that this speed general gives the players. It’s just that newbs have no way to reliably hit their opponents, even when veteran aces already have their ideal weapon class, which means only veterans gets to enjoy any considerable kills with weapons that suits them.

The idea to slow Conclave down because “slow playstyles work in other games”, is no excuse when there also exist fast games that works. Again, why not use other games that have solved the speed issue without slowing down, as an example, instead of games who are slow by nature?

What I meant when I talked about specters is that compensating for slow projectile is not something you want at all. Imagine for the sake of the argument that Junkrat had Soldier76's ult. It would be stupid, wouldn't it? You need to arc the grenades, you need to predict where the target will be, but the stupid aimbot keeps pointing dead center at a target that's too far away and moving too fast. Well, the same could be said here if you use the Tonkor or Penta and have that stupid aim correction.

Look, aim assist simply doesn't work in shooters, and you might be the only person I've ever read requesting it. No one wants to get killed by something that is simply considered a cheat by most people, and I doubt developers of any serious shooter would consider giving aim assist to anything but console players that use a controller. Hell, people complained about the Overwatch aim assist because console users were using a special keyboard and mouse that lied, telling the console it was actually a controller so they could keep mouse accuracy+aim assist and it was chaos.

Seriously, go in-game, ask people if they'd like aim assist for conclave. The global answer is gonna be a resounding and collective NO. Meanwhile, ask them what their main concerns about conclave are (something I did). The answers were: 1-mobility too fast making the gamemode too frustrating 2-Lack of dedicated servers giving the advantage to the host.

Edited October 29, 2019 by ixidron92

[ByroSphere]

40 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

What I meant when I talked about specters is that compensating for slow projectile is not something you want at all. Imagine for the sake of the argument that Junkrat had Soldier76's ult. It would be stupid, wouldn't it? You need to arc the grenades, you need to predict where the target will be, but the stupid aimbot keeps pointing dead center at a target that's too far away and moving too fast. Well, the same could be said here if you use the Tonkor or Penta and have that stupid aim correction.

Look, aim assist simply doesn't work in shooters, and you might be the only person I've ever read requesting it. No one wants to get killed by something that is simply considered a cheat by most people, and I doubt developers of any serious shooter would consider giving aim assist to anything but console players that use a controller. Hell, people complained about the Overwatch aim assist because console users were using a special keyboard and mouse that lied, telling the console it was actually a controller so they could keep mouse accuracy+aim assist and it was chaos.

Seriously, go in-game, ask people if they'd like aim assist for conclave. The global answer is gonna be a resounding and collective NO. Meanwhile, ask them what their main concerns about conclave are (something I did). The answers were: 1-mobility too fast making the gamemode too frustrating 2-Lack of dedicated servers giving the advantage to the host.

The global answer may be no, because most people here have only played cover shooters, one of  few game genres where aim assist isn’t applied in any form besides ADS. Most players would simply be too uninformed to give a well thought opinion, because unlike what you are saying, there actually ARE a lot of third person shooters where aim assist works (mostly japanese mech games).

Also, you seem to forget that there are different degrees of aim assist. Not all aim assists means “autolock on with 100% aim accuracy”, some aim assist basically just means a bigger crusor that allows you to hit targets so long as you can manually keep them on sight vs needing to keep them in sight + also having the personal mechanical skill of being pixel accurate.

People can get better with practice sure, but there are limits in what can be trained. If we are just gonna talk about tactical skills, like the type of mindset you need to be good at the game, how you should think or react in given situations that presents itself in said games. Then yeah, that can be trained for everyone, cause you would only need to know what you are doing, to apply those skills (the hard part is coming up with new tactics).

But when you are asking people to hit highly mobile targets more than 5 times with pixel accuracy, and also are pressureing them to be good with weapons that at least needs 20 successful hits to grant a kill (when landing 5 was difficult enough), you are not asking them to train tactical skill, you are asking them to improve their mechanical skills. When the promblem with requiring people to improve mechanical skill, is that mechanical skill is something directly tied to the player’s physical limitations, it’s just a terrible idea to base a game’s average skill requirement on something that can’t be that readily improved.

Cover shooter works, because they are slow enough for the average mechanical skill to work, but Warframe is naturally faster than that. You can make Warframe slower, but what’s the point of it, if it won’t be Warframe anymore? You can solve the exact same problem and keeping Warframe as Warframe with a minor aim assist, so slowing down is just not the best solution.

[ByroSphere]

Not quite a month have passed, but after playing a while with the now reduced speed, I gotta say I guess that it’s not too bad.

I still think that Aim Assist will be needed for some weapons if they plan to make Conclave fast again, but the current levels are fine enough. Most weapon types seem to work, while although noobs are still pretty easy predictable targets, any moderate veteran is fun enough to pose a challenge.

Might not have the blinding speed that gives that special rush that Im seeking, but at least it’s fast enough that light characters actually feel like they are light.

So all in all, although my views haven’t quite changed, I no longer think that the way that the Conclave is played, should be a priority when it comes to make it more worthwhile for newcomers.

Edited November 9, 2019 by ByroSphere