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(XB1)ECCHO SIERRA

power isnt the devil.

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And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

 

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

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I really agree with this post. You can make and customize your loadout however you wish. You can optimize the fun out of the game, or play as gimped as you wish, I see no reason that someone with literally thousands of hours in game shouldn't be able to breeze through most enemies with their strongest weapons and frames modded out the ass.

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Much as I agree, we both know people are just too damn dense to understand this simple fact.

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If DE makes something that behind the scenes that halves your mods effectiveness, nobody would bat an eye.

If you ask the players to do it themselves, they are being personally attacked by the incompetent devs.

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The thing with Warframe is numbers/balance in its core gameplay is flawed.I really dont think DE should just nerf the player and just leave everything else alone cause that would be a terrible mistake.They have to nerf the players and balance every thing enemy/maps/AI accordingly which is obviously a big task.Why do you think DE is struggling to make any sort of endgame mode? why they cant make a good fun boss fight without complete ability immunity? the issue lies in the root and DE has been trying to get around it without actualy fixing it with stuffs such as arbitration drones but you know how everyone feels about that.

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Not sure if you've never played a game with a real endgame or are just ignorant of what makes endgame desirable.

There are players who like to minmax their gear, get as powerful and effcient as tehy can and then put that power to use. But you can't put that power to use because everything just crumbles away regardless of your effort. People have to do multiple hours long endless missions to get enemies at a level where they can actually enact their power, where such power is needed and where they feel rewarded for having put in the work to maximize their gear as it was needed to overcome such high level enemies. But hours upon hours of endless misisons are super impractical and there are also no rewards to incentivize or reward players who manage to got that far.

Just saying I only put 4 mods into my weapon to make things harder does not do anytihng for a player who wants endgame. Like honestly a sortie is plain trivial even with only 4 mods in your weapon or Warframe, but thats not the point.

This is a loot game, you play the game to get cool stuff and then quite naturally you want to put it to use and reach even higher. But the rewards people are currently getting exceed the content of the game so much in power that they are a dead end to the gameplay loop.

Now why are people suggesting nerfing stuff? Well, leaving people aside who would generally have the game regress to a state that is less similar to Dynasty Warriors, the numbers and scaling in this game are pretty damn broken. By "nerfing" or rebalancing the nubmers in the game, we could have an environment where we could have reasonable scaling, less abusable mechanics to push numbers almost indefinitely high and then establish enemies that are not just oneshot by cheese and not trivially easy to kill. Even if player numbers would be lower that still does not interfere with what endgame players want. They can still minmax their gear and would get to overcome challenges fit for that gear.

Obviously such content would ask for even more powerful rewards but with a healthier scaling you wouldn't skyrocket far and above the content and it would remain a decent playground for players to use that high end gear on. It doesn't have to be brutally hard and a constant unforgiving challenge. But it has to have a reasonable difficulty that doesn't make the majority of power in the game redundant.

Edited by Raikh
typos
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Some time ago i played using weapons that are not too powerful but i enjoy using ,

those being the Mios , the prisma grinlok and cyanex , using Baruuk.

They are well built but will not be out damaging any top tier weapons with min maxed rivens .

joined a public fissure match , it was a fissure MD i believe.

 

I spent the first 2 defenses without shooting any enemy , not because i am baruuk the pacifist. but because the enemies were getting killed by corridor catchmoons .

Would have left it at that no harm done and i am getting what i need,  i mean everyone is entitled to their weapon choice , cant blame em.

But then one of those catchmooners had to drop in the "lol why do you use that crap auto target weapon ? no wonder you aren't able to do do any damage , you must have gotten to MR 27 in hydron and not know how to actually build anything"

Suffice it to say my Baruuk lost his restraint and went away with more than half the damage of the mission.

 

The reason i want some challenge (that is not self inflicted) is to see how i compare with others in the game at similar levels.

 

I could surely find my own challenge by going solo , limiting the mods and playing in a way to add challenge.

Problem is, it wont work in a squad which will have a very different idea, me limiting myself for the challenge will make things inefficient for others.

Something that in a "co operative" game would be less than ideal.

And how the hell am i supposed to do challenging stuff in a squad if that one dude with the meta gear already killed everyone?

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There is one major problem with our strength that's usually overlooked. Enemy balancing. The stronger we get, the stronger the enemies get in order to counter that. These new stronger enemies pretty much require you use the strongest gear you can get in order to deal with them. It's because of this that people complain about insane enemy armor and damage scaling. So unless we get nerfed, the enemies can't get nerfed either. 

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Preach it to them father.

Although you can also weaken yourself while still using top tier stuff, just requires you to change your mindset a bit.

It is why i tend to like weird builds and combinations. 

Couple of weeks i was just running a pubbie fissure survival with a valkyr with twin rogga and a lesion while i got a mesa, saryn and equinox as my team mates. No biggy, i can just let them deal the damage while i can just pick them up when they go down as i just have fun.  Either those 3 nukes got damn lazy or were sleeping as i managed to outdamage them as i got around double the kills with the least amount of damage received.

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There's a difference between skill difficulty and number difficulty.Having to shoot, slash, press 4  3 times instead of 1 doesn't change much in my book.

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Are you happy that you ll never feel any kind of progression in the game? Are you happy that everything you ll get ll be useless in a way or another?

I dont understand people like you...

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People who don't play to the meta wholeheartedly aren't the ones complaining about being too powerful.  Personally, Warframe isn't a game that supports meta only playstyles and people who complain about being too powerful don't get that.  

 

 

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I wouldn't put much stock into what people say on the forums.  They do things like claim nyx is useless, yet I go into hydron with just nyx and some weapon I'm leveling and deal more damage then anyone that isn't a saryn/nuke with just chaos and my weapon.  

Edited by (XB1)COA Altair
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I agree wholeheartedly. If you want challenge, equip a extinguished dragon key and be capped at 25% of your total damage output. Try to compete with your squad mates while being gimped like that lol

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1 hour ago, belanya said:

Are you happy that you ll never feel any kind of progression in the game? Are you happy that everything you ll get ll be useless in a way or another?

I dont understand people like you...

Best part about this is that people do advance in the game, as no one is starting out with every piece of gear min maxed when they start playing as in the beginning you lack many, many mods.  People just complain that 'we're too powerful' once they have advanced through the star chart and have some gear that is maximized.  What did you expect, that you'd be stuck at the same level when you first started playing?  

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1 hour ago, belanya said:

Are you happy that you ll never feel any kind of progression in the game? Are you happy that everything you ll get ll be useless in a way or another?

I dont understand people like you...

I dunno if this is like a weird vet mindset I've yet to adopt, but I've had about a thousand hours of progress so far. My arsenal is massively improved over what I started with, I got cosmetics out the ass, and I've got all the quests completed. I genuinely don't know how making my character weaker would add any new progression to the game, aside from maybe a new grind to get as strong as I'm now. All progression must have an endpoint, otherwise you have an eternal power creep.

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While I agree with the sentiment, there's one problem:  Public play.  One can't control that someone else is bringing along a stacked Ember Prime to a kuva siphon run and bullet jumping through the mission ASAP while her 4 passively turns everything into charcoal.  You know... the type of player that SHOULD be playing solo because clearly the other peeps aren't even necessary, but isn't.

So while I'm happy to nerf myself because frankly, a Plinx/Magnus/Lex/Vasto with ~15-20 round magazine and a high RoF is pretty dang cool, I'd like to join a public game and not be rendered tileset decoration by a try hard min-maxer acting like hitting their WASD keys and shooting things is somehow an inconvenience in the Third Person SHOOTER that is Warframe, instead of, y'know... the point.  

So I'm going to keep pushing for energy availability to reigned in, as that's largely what's enabling most of the power-gaming behaviors like above in the first place.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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3 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Best part about this is that people do advance in the game, as no one is starting out with every piece of gear min maxed when they start playing as in the beginning you lack many, many mods.  People just complain that 'we're too powerful' once they have advanced through the star chart and have some gear that is maximized.  What did you expect, that you'd be stuck at the same level when you first started playing?  

I personally expect to have some sort of challenge, something to aim towards. What i want is a reason to have to get all those mods and those guns.

In a traditional RPG you know there's going to be a difficult final boss at the end which requires for eg [LvL: 60/100] gear, this is what i consider the Starchart to be. but in a lot of RPG's they also have a hidden "Final true boss" such as:
Persona 3's

Spoiler

Elizabeth Boss fight

and Final Fantasy Dissdia 2012's

Spoiler

Feral Chaos Fight

which demands the player to use their best gear ([LvL 100/100]) and make use of everything they've learnt while playing the game and i think this is what Warframe is missing for a lot of players. We've slaved away farming the best mods and Warframes striving to reach the apex but once we've reached there, there's nothing. What was the point? DE can release new mods and weapons stronger than the last for us to obtain but again, what's the point? Even the new gamemodes DE implements doesn't fill that gap for many players and comes off as just more boring content brain dead content and the endless require too much of a time investment leaving players bored and quitting before it starts getting fun.

 

Off-Topic

3 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

I wouldn't put much stock into what people say on the forums.  They do things like claim nyx is useless, yet I go into hydron with just nyx and some weapon I'm leveling and deal more damage then anyone that isn't a saryn/nuke with just chaos and my weapon.  

Your weapon is literally doing all the damage.
Nyx is a functional warframe but her kit is rather dated and her playstyle doesn't really fit her theme all too well.

[1] Pretty much does nothing to overall gameplay
[2] not enough content which requires its use
[3] Just Radiation(Has minor differences), even Oberon replicate this with hallowed ground and do more for your team
[4] You curl up into a ball and do nothing (augment is required for any semblance of fun with this ability)

Edited by Raqiya
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6 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

 

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

In a running race do you think you should have to run backwards against the opposition to feel challenged and have a satisfying race? Or would you rather sprint forwards giving it your all against a challenging opposition? Which do you think is more satisfying?

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I think people are upset they're used to operating at 200%, and are now at 193%.

Like any MMO, your skill and power comes from experience. Like when I discovered I could actually survive if I move around or incorporate my abilities instead of just face tanking everything like a noob.

Too be good at any game you need reflexes and button memorization.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

You have to be deliberately ignoring the reasons here.

If DE tying my hands behind my back is analogous with an across the board nerf to everything I own, and thus the game becomes more challenging, everything I own is still useful. Everything I've earned has a place, and there is still value in earning more.

This is a good thing.

If I tie my own hands behind my back and stop myself using certain items, then they lose value.

Why bother farming more defensive stuff? I'm already immortal. More damage? Bah, my staff one shots pretty much everything that isn't in an endurance run. Feeling too tanky? My Arcane Guardian loses value, because I 'stop' using it.

Or I would stop, but I won't, because gimping myself is a stupid thing to do and I'd rather play something that doesn't require it to be enjoyable.

Obviously it's never that simple, an across the board nerf does not immediately result in a better game, just as an across the board buff doesn't. It would take months of work from everyone, but you're only fooling yourself if you believe it's the same thing as us just denying ourselves a bit of power.

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Sodding sod sod.

Internet problems.

Edited by DeMonkey

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The problem isn't that we're powerful, its how much more powerful we are relative to everything else and how quickly that happens.

There isn't an outlet for even half of the tools we have access to. Everything in this game can be done without Primed frames/weapons, Primed mods, Rivens, Arcanes, Augments, or even Operators (except Eidolons but they literally force us to). Then to pile on the scaling potential of several frames and mods all culminate in our progression resulting in the entire game being trivialized several times over.

Catchmoon, Blood Rush, Condition Overload, or whatever else people are complaining about receiving nerfs would be perfectly fine if there was anything to use them on.

But to have content that would require even half of this would result in entirely different issues: people then complain that it's too hard or that they have to just through every progression hoop to go to said content. And if it didn't achieve the goal of being difficult enough to require our progression then the very group it was meant for will call it too easy yet again.

 

Power itself isn't the issue, power without purpose is. But if we're not receiving said purpose then the only alternative is to reign in our power.

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