power isnt the devil.

[DrakeWurrum]

7 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

You're getting this very wrong.

The game allows us, and encourages us, to build up power and get as powerful as we can. The game constantly rewards us with things that increase our power.

We should feel good about that. We shouldn't have to actively refuse to get more powerful to have challenge. The game should provide us with more challenge to match our increasing power.

If players have to arbitrarily limit themselves rather than making use of the game's systems for improving your character, then the game is designed badly. The choice to be powerful or weak is not a choice.

It makes literally NO sense to gimp yourself just so that you can feel challenged while pursuing rewards that make you powerful, only to not make yourself more powerful.

26 minutes ago, trst said:

Power itself isn't the issue, power without purpose is.

^this

Edited October 27, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[ReshyShira]

The problem isn't really the "challenge" of the game, it's the fact the gameplay loop gets very stale very quickly.

[Lost_Cartographer]

55 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

You're getting this very wrong.

The game allows us, and encourages us, to build up power and get as powerful as we can. The game constantly rewards us with things that increase our power.

We should feel good about that. We shouldn't have to actively refuse to get more powerful to have challenge. The game should provide us with more challenge to match our increasing power.

If players have to arbitrarily limit themselves rather than making use of the game's systems for improving your character, then the game is designed badly. The choice to be powerful or weak is not a choice.

It makes literally NO sense to gimp yourself just so that you can feel challenged while pursuing rewards that make you powerful, only to not make yourself more powerful.

^this

Problem is the power curve gets to the point where players are forced effectively nullify the enemy's ability to fight ASAP, at which point, there can be no challenge.  When your answer is "shut down the AI" what's giving them more health going to do?  What's giving them more damage going to do when they're already 1-shotting over half the roster?

It's not something that can be solved by simply improving AI or introducing new enemies.  The player fundamentally needs to have their ability spam nerfed into the ground before getting that challenge is even possible.

So yeah, while solo, if you want challenge, nerf yourself, because I guarantee sticking to your guns, pun not intended, and demanding a challenge for all of your power is just going to backfire because either you're going to cheese the hell out of it such that it feels like everything else anyway or they'll have to cheese right back (see: nullifiers, healer ancients, etc.) and just smear you into the floor right back.

If you're playing with others though, might as well META it.  I can also guarantee there will be one guy in the cell that will dictate the pacing of the entire mission for the other 3 players (and this is a problem as well.)

If you're waiting for nerfs to the player, I wouldn't want to hold my breath for that long.  If you expect DE to somehow introduce challenge without first nerfing us though, keep dreaming.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[Alvengerz]

It's called pseudo-challenge. Complicating yourself by limiting the power you have on your hand is not really a challenge. What I consider challenge in this game is the difficulty sourcing from the game itself. That's the thing that encourage me to get better at this game with all I already have in game, without limiting anything that's actually useful when used in missions.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Alvengerz

[Kimimoto]

10 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

Not even using top tier loadouts, the game isn't challenging. Sorry you're 100% wrong here. No amount of discussion or whiteknights giving you upvotes will change that.

[Goodwill]

If I wanted to play by my own rules, I'd code my own game. But it's more fun to challenge other people's games rather than my own.

As a kid, I use to play with cheats on all the time. For my short attention span, it was fun but as you grow older, some of us like to be challenged. No, not to challenge ourselves but for someone to challenge us. To give us a challenge we must overcome.

[goatwin]

When you guys see the term "nerf across the board" brought out by some players,  are you really so shallow to think it means no more feeling like a powerful god? Why so afraid of having to put effort into feeling like a god? 

Last but not least, with a system where more power is constantly given to players there will come a point where every frames and weapons will wipe out maps in a single button press or something. At that point, every youtube montage will just be a collection of players sitting in place with numbers popping in and out of the distance as the game is reduced into "who can press 4 the fastest before anyone else takes away your chance to feel like a god". 

[T.Hoagie]

15 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

 

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

All these screams for nerfs are giving me horrible flashbacks to Mass Effect 3's multiplayer back in the day, not gonna debate the merits or whatever of the game, the multiplayer however was actually fun.

But there was a problem with it, and that problem was everyone and their mother screaming for nerfs. And Bioware bent over backwards so hard to appease them that they literally shoved their heads up their butt after their spines snapped.

Every single week a new nerf was applied, good weapons, good characters, rendered into garbage. Because "Muh Power creep!", "Muh Need challenge", "Too OP!, NERF NOAW".

We even had a guy that outright lied to the Devs, that we debunked HARD and they listened. This guy claimed that with the one Assassin character, on the one map notorious for having a good defensive position could stand behind the desk and spam its wave attack and be invincible and thus OP in a "farming situation". Which wasn't true at all, it was a mediocre ability at best, and when he tried to prove it in a video, all he proved was he was so blind that he couldn't see the Geth stalker walk right up to him and shotgun him to death before he could react.

DESPITE the proof to the contrary, Bioware nerfed that ability.

It got so bad with the nerfs that when they finally introduced the Collectors as an enemy faction, they had to undo practically all the nerfs they did cause it rendered the game unplayable.

Now someone's gonna probably say "Well, you're just wrong, this won't happen to Warframe!". And they will completely overlook the fact that even if DE doesn't pull a Bioware on this game, they're still screaming to have the game altered to suit them, which screws over other people.

It's pretty much all I've seen for days, having energy is cheating, zenurik/pizza's=cheating, Rivens need to be removed, whole game needs to be turned into something else that isn't Warframe. I mean holy crap it's exhausting to watch.

Edited October 27, 2019 by T.Hoagie
simple error

[George_PPS]

12 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

 

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

ALL NERFERS need to read your post and memorize all words and learn to be good at modding,  it nerfing others so I can be as good as others. If they have power creep problems, they should equip fewer mods! Problem solved! 

[Yamazuki]

12 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

I'm not sure why you think stronger mods is synonymous with rewards. Nightwave mostly rewards cosmetics, consumables (forma, kuva, etc) and a couple mods that alter weapons, and people stress out over getting the rewards anyways. People have also asked before for cosmetic rewards tied to harder content before too.

Even if DE is only capable of rewarding us with more stats, the issue becomes that DE never provides content catered to the increased stats. Warframe isn't the only game that has its players constantly gaining stats over the course of the game's life; the difference is, other games continue adding content catered to each new power level, rather than maintaining the same initial power level.

As our stats increase, there should have been new content with missions that match it.

[George_PPS]

32 minutes ago, T.Hoagie said:

All these screams for nerfs are giving me horrible flashbacks to Mass Effect 3's multiplayer back in the day, not gonna debate the merits or whatever of the game, the multiplayer however was actually fun.

But there was a problem with it, and that problem was everyone and their mother screaming for nerfs. And Bioware bent over backwards so hard to appease them that they literally shoved their heads up their butt after their spines snapped.

Every single week a new nerf was applied, good weapons, good characters, rendered into garbage. Because "Muh Power creep!", "Muh Need challenge", "Too OP!, NERF NOAW".

We even had a guy that outright lied to the Devs, that we debunked HARD and they listened. This guy claimed that with the one Assassin character, on the one map notorious for having a good defensive position could stand behind the desk and spam its wave attack and be invincible and thus OP in a "farming situation". Which wasn't true at all, it was a mediocre ability at best, and when he tried to prove it in a video, all he proved was he was so blind that he couldn't see the Geth stalker walk right up to him and shotgun him to death before he could react.

DESPITE the proof to the contrary, Bioware nerfed that ability.

It got so bad with the nerfs that when they finally introduced the Collectors as an enemy faction, they had to undo practically all the nerfs they did cause it rendered the game unplayable.

Now someone's gonna probably say "Well, you're just wrong, this won't happen to Warframe!". And they will completely overlook the fact that even if DE doesn't pull a Bioware on this game, they're still screaming to have the game altered to suit them, which screws over other people.

It's pretty much all I've seen for days, having energy is cheating, zenurik/pizza's=cheating, Rivens need to be removed, whole game needs to be turned into something else that isn't Warframe. I mean holy crap it's exhausting to watch.

Well said! Nerfing killed many games. Hopefully it isn’t killing warframe slowly. From what I understand and have checked nerfers’ profiles again and again, most nerfing requests are players asking DE to nerf others’ best frames and most powerful weapons. It’s almost universally “if I don’t have it or I don’t know how to build it to be as strong as others using those gears, DE please nerf them so I can kill more” mentality.

This is extremely toxic in a game that isn’t mostly PvE and not much PvP. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by George_PPS

[Marvelous_A]

TLDR: CoOp gAMe dOeSn'T nEed BaLAncE

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Players just don’t know how to play PvE Co-Op, they prefer Strength before Brain or they just go Solo.

Edited October 27, 2019 by (PS4)Onder6099

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Well said! Nerfing killed many games. Hopefully it isn’t killing warframe slowly. From what I understand and have checked nerfers’ profiles again and again, most nerfing requests are players asking DE to nerf others’ best frames and most powerful weapons. It’s almost universally “if I don’t have it or I don’t know how to build it to be as strong as others using those gears, DE please nerf them so I can kill more” mentality.

This is extremely toxic in a game that isn’t mostly PvE and not much PvP. 

Balance and nerfs / buffs are essential in every game. And I can say wf is more likely to buff then nerf given that balance is a mess and has been for years. The power creep has ensued too much and players can’t fathom de reeling their game back in to something that’s balanced. PvP or PvE a game where you have the player interact with..... anything requires balance. And it’s fine that they are doing so. What happened to all the people saying it’s DEs game let them make the game how they want it or cut them some slack or it takes a lot to make a game if you can’t do it don’t comment. I swear just a week ago that’s the only responses I got from similar issues on the buff nerf spectrum. But now since the catchmoon a very very very strong weapon is getting toned down it’s the end of warframe and they are killing the game? I find this hilarious. I’m all for balance and them bringing the catchmoon in line with other weapons is fair. Remember we had a damage rework that could have possibly negated all of this turmoil but the community was in an uproar. So it didn’t happen.... the players and myself included aren’t helping the state of the game or letting the devs do what they want in terms of fixing their game

[Gabbynaru]

10 hours ago, belanya said:

Are you happy that you ll never feel any kind of progression in the game? Are you happy that everything you ll get ll be useless in a way or another?

I dont understand people like you...

What sort of progression is that where no matter how many hours you put in and how hard you try, enemies will always be better than you? What value do items even have in a game like that?

I don't understand people like you either...

2 hours ago, goatwin said:

Why so afraid of having to put effort into feeling like a god?

Afraid to put in effort? Mate, you do realize people put in hundreds, it not thousands of hours to get to this state, right?

[Aldain]

If trivial difficulty is good why don't we just have DE make a gun that kills everything in the tileset when you pull the trigger?

Or even better, how about we just have every enemy die when the player loads in?

After all some people play the game to feel godlike powerful right? What is more powerful than things dying without you needing to do ANYTHING, not even press a button?

If the sarcasm isn't obvious enough then here's your big loud disclaimer for it. /SARCASM

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

What sort of progression is that where no matter how many hours you put in and how hard you try, enemies will always be better than you? What value do items even have in a game like that?

I don't understand people like you either...

Afraid to put in effort? Mate, you do realize people put in hundreds, it not thousands of hours to get to this state, right?

Name one game with difficulty where the enemy’s are always better then you. If so that game would be impossible to beat the idea of harder enemies is that they aren’t better then you but they aren’t a pushover as well.

 

i can say personally after 2 months of starting a new wf acc I was at that state my gf a mr-5 player with not all the mods or strong weapons as I is at that state. My 9 year old brother mr -4 on Nintendo switch is now at that state. Wf doesn’t require any effort after the first 300 hours tbh 

[844448]

9 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Best part about this is that people do advance in the game, as no one is starting out with every piece of gear min maxed when they start playing as in the beginning you lack many, many mods.  People just complain that 'we're too powerful' once they have advanced through the star chart and have some gear that is maximized.  What did you expect, that you'd be stuck at the same level when you first started playing?  

Sounds like destiny 2, no matter if you're at 750 power or 960 you won't kill that one vex goblin or hive thrall any faster

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, 844448 said:

Sounds like destiny 2, no matter if you're at 750 power or 960 you won't kill that one vex goblin or hive thrall any faster

I mean at 960 with my maxed out gear and build i do shred mobs a lot faster. But then again I’m still running riskrunner and a thunder coil with a arc hunter 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If trivial difficulty is good why don't we just have DE make a gun that kills everything in the tileset when you pull the trigger?

Or even better, how about we just have every enemy die when the player loads in?

After all some people play the game to feel godlike powerful right? What is more powerful than things dying without you needing to do ANYTHING, not even press a button?

If the sarcasm isn't obvious enough then here's your big loud disclaimer for it. /SARCASM

We meet again 

[844448]

13 hours ago, Raikh said:

But it has to have a reasonable difficulty that doesn't make the majority of power in the game redundant.

Here's the question for you, what is the thing you consider as reasonable difficulty? So far endgame content on other games always utilize nonsensical system as difficulty from invincibility to one hit kill/team wipe and with how strong our warframe is, how do you make it reasonable?

[Gabbynaru]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Name one game with difficulty where the enemy’s are always better then you.

Pretty sure that's Destiny 2 in a nutshell. Didn't beat the game cause it didn't feel like I was making progress, so why bother.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Wf doesn’t require any effort after the first 300 hours tbh 

That's still 300 freakin' hours, dude. Not a walk in the park. Heck, most games get you to this point in 20, maybe 40 hours at best, but Warframe takes many times that. No effort required my a**.

[Aldain]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

We meet again 

Its a small forum after all.

[844448]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I mean at 960 with my maxed out gear and build i do shred mobs a lot faster. But then again I’m still running riskrunner and a thunder coil with a arc hunter 

So technically using weapons with AoE then, and people complain about amprex and ignis wraith in warframe.

Try doing it using khvostov 7G-02, and see if you can see any difference between killing at 750 and 960 with a new character because surely I don't see any difference

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

13 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So technically using weapons with AoE then, and people complain about amprex and ignis wraith in warframe.

Try doing it using khvostov 7G-02, and see if you can see any difference between killing at 750 and 960 with a new character because surely I don't see any difference

Probably honestly. I also have a fire ace of spades build and some dope builds with exit strategy or the new raid weapons. PvP and pve. And I’m fairly new at d2 and yeah it’s a big difference depending on what your building in. I usually run max discipline and high mobility on my hunter and I tested max strength max regeneration on my warlock and I can say if you put in the work mobs are wet paper in d2 but the progression to get to that is very nice 

edit and while riskrunner is aoe to an extent I put myself in a near death situation to proc it and use it if there is no arc enemy’s. I also use the pluperfect a lot past 960 because it’s a solid ar and can shred if ur builds right 

Edited October 27, 2019 by (PS4)sweatshawp