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Laudator

Regarding the recent Catchmoon nerf

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First of all, I'm okay with the nerf. As for me, as long as DE don't touch the crit chance, I'm perfectly fine.

The reason 50% of MR27 players are using Catchmoon is indeed because it provides the most efficient way of killing HORDS of enemies. You see the problem? There are simply too many enemies. 

Most weapons in Warframe can be modded to one-shot enemies, but because there's simply so many of them, weapons like the Arca Plasmor, Catchmoon and Fulmin become our favorite. What would you choose between killing 1000 enemies 1 by 1 or 20 with 1 click of a button? 

This is  also the reason why people prefer long range melee over gun play because it hits so many enemies with 1 swing. Melee 3.0 phase 2 looks cool and all, but as long as there remains this many enemies, people will just smash buttons finding no joy at all, those fancy lifting animations are just for show, it's less effective. 

Why don't you just focus on making the enemies smarter instead of just more and more? 

We know that if you are in your operator and aim at Excalibur Umbra, he will crotch so he doesn't block your view, why not give this feature to enemies? Add a cool down like 2 seconds or so. So every time you aim at them they'll just crotch or dodge out of the way. 

Maybe only adding this to higher tier enemies like Heavy Gunner, Bombard. Butchers and Lancers will stay the same. 

Right now, Warframe doesn't feel like a shooter at all, that's why sometimes I prefer soloing low level extermination missions to get a feel of it. Reduce the number of enemies, make them smarter and stop nerfing our guns. 

 

Edit: My point is about gameplay and if you think lower enemy counts will result in lower life support drop (as in survival missions) or lower resources/mods drop (as in farming), that's a whole different issue. Those can be rectified by increasing the drop rate if the enemy spawn rate is lower, but we're not discussing that here. Simply which is more fun in Warframe? Hordes of generic enemies which can be killed by 1 click of a button or some smart enemies that you have to make an effort to kill them? 

Edited by Laudator
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I agree about having fewer but smarter enemies, but not about Catchmoon. It's not that it's the best CC secondary, it's just way overpowered, even when facing single enemies it outperforms most guns. Maybe if they buff the rest of the secondaries along with the nerf there wouldn't be so much salt over it.

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i'd buy that for a dollar. if 90-95% of the Enemies exist to be useless, then it's hard to blame the Players when they are semi-AFK in their process of being tasked to Kill these completely uninteresting Enemies.
and as always, more interesting types of Enemies do already exist, but almost everything that Spawns is the generic, uninteresting, ineffective stuff.

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5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No. if anything increase the amount of enemies.

And why do you want that? To get more resource or a Condition Overload from farming? Let's say if drop chance is out of the question, would you agree that fewer but smarter enemies are good for the game in the long run? 

Also, so many enemies is precisely why Saryn another room nuking frames are so hated, their ability out performs everything we have access to. 

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35 minutes ago, Laudator said:

You see the problem? There are simply too many enemies. 

That's not the problem, the game is a horde shooter.

The problem is that players have so much power that they can remove all hordes in a second or less. That's pretty antithetical to the game.

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Disagree about a couple parts. Only reason I use a Catchmoon now is for Arbitration and those drones. For regular missions, other secondaries are better or at least more fun.

Reduce the amount of enemies? Definitely no, that should not happen. 

Enemies spawns are already garbage especially solo. If anything they should double or triple the amount of enemies that spawn.

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33 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'd buy that for a dollar. if 90-95% of the Enemies exist to be useless, then it's hard to blame the Players when they are semi-AFK in their process of being tasked to Kill these completely uninteresting Enemies.
and as always, more interesting types of Enemies do already exist, but almost everything that Spawns is the generic, uninteresting, ineffective stuff.

That's what long range melee and things like Ignis do better.

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I thought the nerf is gonna be bigger but they will just reduce its effective range. In that case its still gonna be good for whats it used for: shooting through goups of low lvl enemies

The biggest issue for catchmoon and why its so good thats its bearly worth using other secondaries is its large projectile with innate punch through. Imo if all the weapons had some innate PT the usage % would be more blanced

Still i dont get why ppl use it so much. It gets pretty boring and not so good on lvl 100+ enemies. Personally i only use it for arbitrations and if i forget to change it for smtg more fun 😛

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6 minutes ago, Laudator said:

And why do you want that? To get more resource or a Condition Overload from farming? Let's say if drop chance is out of the question, would you agree that fewer but smarter enemies are good for the game in the long run? 

Also, so many enemies is precisely why Saryn another room nuking frames are so hated, their ability out performs everything we have access to. 

To have more fun and not kill the game. And while a bit smarter heavies (and more importantly well designed ones like nox, half the ghouls OV hyenas or even bursas which have their own tiny nitpicks, instead of "lets give it 2 cc moves the enemy keeps spamming making the map more annoying than just not playing" and add 200 more armor or 300 more shields, hp and base damage on a generic gun thus enemies lying about their level as was the logic with the vast majority of OV enemies) and more common mini bosses certainly would be good spice, reducing the already "closer to Destiny than Diablo" amount of spawns (for all planets with levels 10+, ESPECIALLY KUVA AND levels above 50 or 60 if one wants to scale by arbies instead of sortie start) is just counter productive. Hell a solid chunk of the game modes themselves already encourage you to bullet jump past enemies, reducing the amount of them and the small bursts of gratifying feeling when cleaving down 7+ enemies with a big infested stick or blowing up 4 lancers into particles via opticor or just nailing them to a wall would be as big of a derp move as DE did when they didnt have nightwave intermissions prepped as a thing after removing alerts (tho that was medium goals/gratification steps, not in game loop ones which are even more important).

E.g. of derp design with "smart" ai on the other hand being a extreme waste of time: Plains Thumpers, in design similar to many a enemy since early Doomclone days of shooters, but best incarnated in Borderlands Crystalisks. Only issue: their body is flat out immune to damage instead of only extremely resistant along with their "leg" hitbox being tiny/clearly designed by someone that only uses guns (making melee almost impossible to damage the damn legs because it treats the hits as armor hits), their lack of proper ranged movement pressure could have been excused with mobility however their mobility is in the vast majority of time spammed to reposition or worse (charge out into their despawn distance), their only vague threat assumes you cant hit what feels like a 5 hp gun that can only do burst damage and worst of all, they are fast enough with both turn rate and animation to keep facing you/keep one not-yet-killed leg facing away most of the time. That only encourages less engagement in the full variety of gameplay WF has.


P.S. Both grineer and corpus can and do crouch (and lean) behind cover and walls and any enemy with arena AI will attempt to dodge once or twice when running at you if you dont catch and stagger them.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Raskol said:

I thought the nerf is gonna be bigger but they will just reduce its effective range. In that case its still gonna be good for whats it used for: shooting through goups of low lvl enemies

The biggest issue for catchmoon and why its so good thats its bearly worth using other secondaries is its large projectile with innate punch through. Imo if all the weapons had some innate PT the usage % would be more blanced

Still i dont get why ppl use it so much. It gets pretty boring and not so good on lvl 100+ enemies. Personally i only use it for arbitrations and if i forget to change it for smtg more fun 😛

Nah, innate PT isnt the main draw (tho certainly good for increasing net damage, especially on secondaries where there is no shred equivalent), its just the large projectile size and base damage it had, which is (or soon will be) 30% at minimum pre end of falloff (aka within the size most map rooms are and within range you fight enemies in bases on the 2 open maps) higher than prior best in slot damage was without conditionals and no downside (other than fashion). Its closest non-kitgun competition all have serious recoil that isnt stable within fire rate, longer reloads, higher spread (or both spread and falloff as with shotgun secondaries).

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48 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

That's what long range melee and things like Ignis do better.

notice that i didn't say anything about specific Weaponry or tools. only talking about the grand scheme of the design.

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13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

notice that i didn't say anything about specific Weaponry or tools. only talking about the grand scheme of the design.

My point was that this isn't the reason people use Catchmoon.

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"Reduce enemies" Hell NO ! Survivals are already broken if you solo them due to the lack of enemies and the drops of life support.

Equip a punch-through mod and learn to aim.

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9 minutes ago, Fellas92 said:

"Reduce enemies" Hell NO ! Survivals are already broken if you solo them due to the lack of enemies and the drops of life support.

To be a little fair here, this can be mitigated if you play survival missions if there happens to be a fissure. The extra enemies that spawn from fissures just barely give you enough enemies that you can play solo and sustain life support. Of course the accessibility of these missions are very limited, since you have to rely on chance for them to appear.

I sure wish DE didn't nerf solo enemy spawns, but the last thing solo players need are even less enemies.

11 minutes ago, Fellas92 said:

Equip a punch-through mod and learn to aim.

The argument OP is making (which I don't agree with), is not that punch-through and aiming is the problem. Catchmoon is pretty much like Arca Plasmor, where it can hit several enemies if the "center" of it doesn't touch anything, giving it a pseudo punch-through effect. They're arguing that DE should lower enemy spawns.

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4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Catchmoon is pretty much like Arca Plasmor, where it can hit several enemies if the "center" of it doesn't touch anything, giving it a pseudo punch-through effect.

I think there's more to that:

  • Like all other Kitguns and Zaws, the ability to equip Arcanes. Pax Seeker in particular
  • Secondary Mods instead of Shotgun mods.
  • More range than the Arca Plasmor

I don't mind about the other Kitguns such as the Tombfinger, where you do have to put in effort of using it. People who wants other Secondaries to get buffed to the level of Catchmoon, that will rip the balance out even more in a worse way. Should Primary Kitguns release, I really hope this doesn't involve a very similar case of the Catchmoon.

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55 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

My point was that this isn't the reason people use Catchmoon.

it's a big component - the Damage Stats are too, but ofcourse that's since the Playerbase would consider an Ignis to be incapable of dealing any Damage at all and is just for breaking Pots, so it's not that surprising that a Weapon would need to perform like Catchmoon for them to be able to Kill anything with an AoE spam type Weapon.

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39 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

To be a little fair here, this can be mitigated if you play survival missions if there happens to be a fissure. The extra enemies that spawn from fissures just barely give you enough enemies that you can play solo and sustain life support. Of course the accessibility of these missions are very limited, since you have to rely on chance for them to appear.

I sure wish DE didn't nerf solo enemy spawns, but the last thing solo players need are even less enemies.

The argument OP is making (which I don't agree with), is not that punch-through and aiming is the problem. Catchmoon is pretty much like Arca Plasmor, where it can hit several enemies if the "center" of it doesn't touch anything, giving it a pseudo punch-through effect. They're arguing that DE should lower enemy spawns.

I don't think to increase enemy spawn rate for the sake of more life support drops makes any sense. This is about gameplay, if you want more life support, we just increase the dorp rate, that's a whole different issue. I simply want to argue which one is better, less enemies but they are smarter which you need to make an effort to kill them or hordes of generic enemies you just smash buttons and they all die. 

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2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

That's not the problem, the game is a horde shooter.

The problem is that players have so much power that they can remove all hordes in a second or less. That's pretty antithetical to the game.

Previously you said this is a horde shooter and that's the issue, I believe Warframe is not, this is not some kind of Zombie game, where the horde gives you a sense of pressure. If there's a horde of enemies, people will seek the most effective ways to kill them, either you balance everything or there will be a meta, but as long as room-clearing abilities, long range melee and AoE weapons exist, they will out perform everything else and if they nerf those, we will spend more time completing a mission and people are already complaining how bad the reward system in Warframe is right now, I don't think it helps at all. The only way to break is solve the horde problem. 

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3 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

I agree about having fewer but smarter enemies, but not about Catchmoon. It's not that it's the best CC secondary, it's just way overpowered, even when facing single enemies it outperforms most guns. Maybe if they buff the rest of the secondaries along with the nerf there wouldn't be so much salt over it.

Not really. Most lists of highest DPS list it as like #7. Rattleguts outperforms it on single, and overall it's the arca of secondaries. It kills weaklings but struggles elsewhere.

Yeah I didn't hear them talk about how the other 102 weapons(many with sub .01% usage) maybe just maybe needed a buff in it's place. How about looking at the DPS compared to primaries and melee and adjusting it from there?

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13 minutes ago, Laudator said:

Previously you said this is a horde shooter and that's the issue, I believe Warframe is not, this is not some kind of Zombie game, where the horde gives you a sense of pressure. If there's a horde of enemies, people will seek the most effective ways to kill them, either you balance everything or there will be a meta, but as long as room-clearing abilities, long range melee and AoE weapons exist, they will out perform everything else and if they nerf those, we will spend more time completing a mission and people are already complaining how bad the reward system in Warframe is right now, I don't think it helps at all. The only way to break is solve the horde problem. 

So criticize how grindy the game is, making the game even more boring for solo or team missions (especially if frames like Saryn are with you) by reducing enemy numbers is not how to solve the problem.

20 minutes ago, Laudator said:

either you balance everything or there will be a meta, but as long as room-clearing abilities, long range melee and AoE weapons exist, they will out perform everything else

I agree. The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe we should balance these broken AoEs while thinking it's okay to also criticize about how grindy the game is. 😛

25 minutes ago, Laudator said:

The only way to break is solve the horde problem.

This is a deflection. Catchmoon is a problem, no amount of enemies you reduce the spawn counts of is going to make people use it less. It is among the most powerful weapons in the game, doing nothing about it means people will continue to use it far more than anything else. And no, we don't need more Catchmoons, weapons that are as broken as this kitgun. By nerfing the most broken things players have access to, it means they will have an interest to use something else they might enjoy more.

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3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is a deflection. Catchmoon is a problem, no amount of enemies you reduce the spawn counts of is going to make people use it less. It is among the most powerful weapons in the game, doing nothing about it means people will continue to use it far more than anything else. And no, we don't need more Catchmoons, weapons that are as broken as this kitgun. By nerfing the most broken things players have access to, it means they will have an interest to use something else they might enjoy more.

I think weapons like Catchmoon are born precisely because there's so many enemies and just like DE said, spin-to-win slide attack will remain in the game, but they are buffing everything else so you'll have a different option, this direction is right. It's boring and people will still use it, but other options will be just as effective. It's the same thing here. Of course you can kill lower amount of smart enemies with Catchmoon, but just like slide attack, it's boring, but other side-arms in this case will have a chance to be more fun and just as effective. 

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I agree. The difference between you and I, however, is that I believe we should balance these broken AoEs while thinking it's okay to also criticize about how grindy the game is. 😛

I believe the game is grindy too, I just think if enemies are fun to kill, then it feels relatively less grindy. 

10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

So criticize how grindy the game is, making the game even more boring for solo or team missions (especially if frames like Saryn are with you) by reducing enemy numbers is not how to solve the problem.

I believe lower the amount of enemy will actually solve the problem, right now you need map control so you have to use nuke, like Volt spamming his 4, you know those players right? Just stay in one place and 444444444, but if there's less enemies, his 1 will be just as effective. Of course people will still do that, but we're back to that topic again, it's boring, people will do that too, but other options will be just as effective. 

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1 hour ago, Duality52 said:

I don't mind about the other Kitguns such as the Tombfinger, where you do have to put in effort of using it. People who wants other Secondaries to get buffed to the level of Catchmoon, that will rip the balance out even more in a worse way. Should Primary Kitguns release, I really hope this doesn't involve a very similar case of the Catchmoon.

I do, the other kitguns (even gaze post chain buff, tho its closest to ok being "flex better atomos") are still flat upgrades to pretty much every secondary per category that isnt a tool (aka everything but staticor, zakti, weak self damage sticks, faction procs/realistically just the energy ones, high status high tick guns/the pox, embolist, cyanex and aksi prime AND maybe, just maybe the ballistica prime to get more scans at once). We even saw all 3 of the others in the top secondaries.

Edited by Andele3025

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4 hours ago, Laudator said:

We know that if you are in your operator and aim at Excalibur Umbra, he will crotch so he doesn't block your view, why not give this feature to enemies? Add a cool down like 2 seconds or so. So every time you aim at them they'll just crotch or dodge out of the way. 

Maybe only adding this to higher tier enemies like Heavy Gunner, Bombard. Butchers and Lancers will stay the same. 

Don't know if this is already mention, but DE already added that for years. You would see it more prominent with infested charger and leaper if u aim at them.

The thing is that if you can always one-shot enemy, they would never be able to live long enough to prove that they are "smart", and by the time you cant oneshot them and they can prove they are indeed "smart", the game already reach the point where you are the one being one shot. It's a deadlock that prevent any meaningful change coming out of an improvement on AI.

If you played long enough, you might remember back when everybody still go all the way to 20 waves in hydron for exp. Right after DE introduce Nox, and make less enemy spawn, people start to drop it down to 10, right before Nox start to spawn a lot, that is one out come for the "less enemy, but tankier" mentality that i believe undesirable, so u might want to get more specific on what you are recommending

Edited by FireSegment
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8 hours ago, Laudator said:

First of all, I'm okay with the nerf. As for me, as long as DE don't touch the crit chance, I'm perfectly fine.

The reason 50% of MR27 players are using Catchmoon is indeed because it provides the most efficient way of killing HORDS of enemies. You see the problem? There are simply too many enemies. 

I'm pretty sure Catchmoon is dead. And good riddance - I believe it is my most used secondary at this point. It was simply overpowered; for a time I used nothing else, even killed Eidolons with it.

Catchmoon is equal to Maiming Strike. 0% Effort, 100% results. Just a pity for all the Forma and Kuva I spend on this thing.

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