Regarding the recent Catchmoon nerf

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'm pretty sure Catchmoon is dead. And good riddance - I believe it is my most used secondary at this point. It was simply overpowered; for a time I used nothing else, even killed Eidolons with it.

Catchmoon is equal to Maiming Strike. 0% Effort, 100% results. Just a pity for all the Forma and Kuva I spend on this thing.

Well when you think of it it had:

• Very good punch thru basis meaning its great for corridor-mobs, plus a spread so chonky, them having that `shotgun clipping bug` with structures causing it to pop if they touched the edge just further added to that, once the buggie interaction was gutted.
• Highest damage per shot out of all the other kitgun barrel types. Coupled with things like Magnum Force(since it had the magical, give zero care to accuracy value), on top of the usual norms helped to attribute to that.
• Able to achieve basically 100% crit before you even apply a riven or second critical chance mod, plus have chunky critical damage to boot. Which unlike Primary `shotguns`, Secondaries have 2 Primed Critical based mods.
• Plenty of content that demands big shot bangs: Arbitation, ESO, Index, ESPECIALLY DISRUPTION DEMOLYSTS, Heck if synovias were likely not such a pain to hit, i believe catch moon was once used for eidolon hunting, just like how people used arca plasmor for a while in the early days. But then realized using tombfinger was a better idea, as a alternate.
• Throw in Pax Charge, which unlike other guns that use a battery recharger setup, actually worked since you could easily make a low reload size kitgun to have that chonky `reload to recharge modifier bonus` really work well.

Its kind of expected on why i stuck with that gun for so long, might still use it since i can just use opticor vandal or acceltra if i want something to hit further then 8 meters, since i mainly used catch moon by running towards enemies and mass killing the mob anyway. Which if the damage value is already 2 to 5 times the health of a bunch of enemies, a little fall off might not make a noticable difference till the higher level enemies, but running tankie builds let one easily do the JOJO meme and getting up in someone`s face to punch`m out.

Speaking of which, isn`t there a way to deal with falloff, something about increasing projectile flight speed/range? Plus are we not getting ``weapon exilus mod slots next update???`` me haps thinks its gonna be rather easy to counter the nerf a great deal if i am thinking correctly on what might be the type of mods, present in the the weapon exilus mod types.

But seriously people, might want to invest in Jet Stream, and be blackie burd zephyr mains, prepare capacity to slap on Lethal Momentum on your catch moons or have your riven mod include flight speed positive modifiers if that is the case.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Avienas

[Traumtulpe]

10 minutes ago, Avienas said:

projectile flight speed

Yes, but actually no. As I understand it, the range effectively gets reduced to something like ~33%. So Zephyr might work, but mods won't do enough.

[Avienas]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Yes, but actually no. As I understand it, the range effectively gets reduced to something like ~33%. So Zephyr might work, but mods won't do enough.

It still tweaks the scaling so the fall off is a good deal difference, plus riven mod still exist plus we are getting a free `utility slot` to stack with that. Currently on the .5 disposition with riven mods its possible to get 41-49%ish on a riven mod`s flight speed with a 2 line effect, so combined with the pistol mod of that can roughly get one to 80~90%, which should be a considerable notice on things. No-life spamming kuva farmers already do absurd amounts of rolls to get those god-rolls, not gonna hurt them to do a bunch more to chase a `optimal roll` instead.

[Traumtulpe]

That would be 9 Forma and a perfect Riven to get a Catchmoon with about half the range and less damage than it has now. I'll just use another weapon, as was the intention.

[Duality52]

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

By nerfing the most broken things players have access to, it means they will have an interest to use something else they might enjoy more.

Bingo; the main reason I'm still playing even after reaching MR 27. Sticking to "metas" just gets so stale, and it's no wonder people call anything overshadowed "trash" or "garbage" due to that. Play what you enjoy, no matter how "ineffective" it is. A favorite of mine is the Battacor, which I rarely see but it packs a mean punch. 

If you're merely playing to get the reward while not having fun, you're having some issues. The truth matters more over the results.

[BloodRavenCap]

I disagree, I think the problem is more tied to scaling. It's not that we have a lot of enemies, it's that we can't kill them fast enough consistently with everything else. Just look at the armor Grineer units start to pack at some levels. There are a lot of them and if we had other ways to kill them fast, it would be a lot better if we had more enemies. But at this point, nerfing Catchmoon won't solve the problem, it will just anger everyone and will make the gameplay more of a chore. I mean, I really started to have fun with the game when I built Catchmoon and started to use it. It has a lot of problems, but the overpowered aspect is what makes the weapon fun.

The way is not to nerf the meta, the way is to buff everything else or just turn down scaling of enemies a bit. Just look at the bows, they instantly became accessible and interesting the moment they received a buff. I had such a blast playing with Dread and slicing enemies in pieces - and I hated bows with burning passion before.

And as this thread proves, players will still find a way to return to previous numbers. So everyone else will still continue to burn, while new meta will crawl on the top.

Edited October 27, 2019 by BloodRavenCap

[Andele3025]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Catchmoon is equal to Maiming Strike. 0% Effort, 100% results. Just a pity for all the Forma and Kuva I spend on this thing.

Unlike meme strike, the kitguns dont have any downtime or ramp period.
For sake of comparison a pure Slash non-weeping Meme atterax needs to sit at 3x combo and never go for more than 13s without a enemy to rival what catchmoon does baseline or a tombfinger does with a non PT build (or on headshots with a PT Seeker build for aoe when enemies arent vortex or larva clumped).

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

Nerfing the Catchmoon… this is the normal response of a Dev instead of fixing the rest of the secondary's. If you balance the Secondary's ( no matter if they are a Kit Gun, built, regular, etc.) then  more people will choose a secondary that is more appealing to them (vice just for power). This is the real problem, and the real work would be DE Dev's actually having to balance the secondary weps. Until they stop being lazy, this will be a repeating occurrence. 

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX said:

Nerfing the Catchmoon… this is the normal response of a Dev instead of fixing the rest of the secondary's. If you balance the Secondary's ( no matter if they are a Kit Gun, built, regular, etc.) then  more people will choose a secondary that is more appealing to them (vice just for power). This is the real problem, and the real work would be DE Dev's actually having to balance the secondary weps. Until they stop being lazy, this will be a repeating occurrence. 

How do you "fix" secondaries that doesn't equate to buffing them to be as broken as Catchmoon? We don't need more broken OP weapons, we need less.

[Miyabi-sama]

25 минут назад, Pizzarugi сказал:

How do you "fix" secondaries that doesn't equate to buffing them to be as broken as Catchmoon? We don't need more broken OP weapons, we need less.

Clearly turn Lex Prime magazines in makeshift grenades, exploding in proximity of enemy without direct hit.

Huge AoE crit boom, no self da... oh wait, there's Staticor for that. Just what scrubs deserve to play with. 

[xxswatelitexx]

I think the issue is weapon design.

AoE weapons like Tonkor \ Lenz meant for hordes just are not worth the risk of using. 

Arca \ Catchmoon essentially are "safer" options where you don't risk killing your self. 

[Peter]

But we got fluffs!

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

20 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

How do you "fix" secondaries that doesn't equate to buffing them to be as broken as Catchmoon? We don't need more broken OP weapons, we need less.

Buffing them is what you do, you make them *Viable* as a secondary. The reason so many are using the catchmoon is because it has some OP-ness to it. If you bring other secondaries *up to par*, without going overboard, then you will see more people not choosing the catchmoon but a plethora of secondary's being used. DE's reasoning, as stated by Pablo was because TOO many are using the Catchmoon (58%) vice any other secondary. So make other secondary's better and that fixes itself.
For you to say buffing them and make them broke is a reach. To bring them up to par doesn't equate to breaking them, that's absurd to even interject that as something that would result in the re-work.

[Pizzarugi]

18 minutes ago, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX said:

For you to say buffing them and make them broke is a reach. To bring them up to par doesn't equate to breaking them, that's absurd to even interject that as something that would result in the re-work.

All secondaries are viable right now. You don't need them to be Catchmoon-level or similar power to encourage people to use them. The hardest this game officially gets is Kuva Flood and Sortie 3, which is level 100, but you can only run them every 1-24 hours. The average missions you'll be running will go as far as 70, if we're counting the new "Requiem" Fissures coming with the Kuva Liches. Barring Mk1 weapons, all secondaries can tackle this content.

There's no need to bring these weapons "up to par", they don't need to be strong enough to 1shot everything in order to compete with Catchmoon. What needs to happen is to have the Catchmoon nerfed so people don't feel forced into using one hyper meta weapon

[(XBOX)SiwawerPower]

DE please do better on making guns, balance the damage on all weapons, I understand about Catchmoon, but it is efficient that is why most people use it, think about fixing the other guns for players to accept it, not destroying what actually works, Your guns are not equally have the damage the players wanted, you are taking advantage of that by introducing Riven Mod, player’s payed high in marketplace so why make the players who spent money suffer more pain, it Riven business right. Here’s a piece of advice if you don’t wanna balance the guns, just hire bad developers really sucks in making guns so you don’t have to NERF later.

[Educated_Beast]

Well, maybe in a couple years when catchmoon is dead, the riven disposition may increase ....

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

All secondaries are viable right now. You don't need them to be Catchmoon-level or similar power to encourage people to use them. The hardest this game officially gets is Kuva Flood and Sortie 3, which is level 100, but you can only run them every 1-24 hours. The average missions you'll be running will go as far as 70, if we're counting the new "Requiem" Fissures coming with the Kuva Liches. Barring Mk1 weapons, all secondaries can tackle this content.

There's no need to bring these weapons "up to par", they don't need to be strong enough to 1shot everything in order to compete with Catchmoon. What needs to happen is to have the Catchmoon nerfed so people don't feel forced into using one hyper meta weapon

- All secondary's are not viable, especially as you progress closer to end game content. Simple fact of the matter is, if they were, you wouldn't have the current 58% of the people using the Catchmoon over everything else.

- No where did I ever state that bringing other secondary's "up to par" that they should match (equal) the power of the current Catchmoon. Not once, however you continue to insert that concept from thin air, so let me assist you one more time by quoting myself from my most recent post, (HINT read the last 3 words)

"If you bring other secondaries *up to par*, without going overboard"

- The catchmoon does need to be brought down just a bit. However that is not the answer DE should be giving, instead they should focus on the other end of the spectrum.
By not doing this, you will still see an overwhelming percentage of the player base choosing 1 specific secondary again, and this will continue to happen until DE actually does a re-work on secondary's, and brings others up to par, so they become viable.
However.. If you feel your MK-1 Furis is viable in end game content, please continue to use it. 🙄 😜

Edited October 28, 2019 by Xxx-Shinobi-xxX

[Miyabi-sama]

9 минут назад, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX сказал:

feel your MK-1 Furis is viable

Perfectly viable. There's lots of frames giving enormous damage to any weapon. And furis series has augment.

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

Perfectly viable. There's lots of frames giving enormous damage to any weapon. And furis series has augment.

You have to rely on having specific frames in order to get any remotely close. That doesn't make it viable, it makes it dependent on other outside circumstances. Viable means it can stand on its own.

[Miyabi-sama]

24 минуты назад, Xxx-Shinobi-xxX сказал:

Viable means it can stand on its own.

"Viability - ability to work as intended or succeed." Cambridge dictionary.

I dunno what imaginary world you live where DE slap your hands every time you want to use abilities or other means to make a weapon work as intended or succeed, but in existing endgame parody Furis is perfectly viable.

And yes, MK-1 weapons are a noob fodder being seriously gimped versions of normal guns. This fact makes your argument unviable.

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

3 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

"Viability - ability to work as intended or succeed." Cambridge dictionary.

I dunno what imaginary world you live where DE slap your hands every time you want to use abilities or other means to make a weapon work as intended or succeed, but in existing endgame parody Furis is perfectly viable.

And yes, MK-1 weapons are a noob fodder being seriously gimped versions of normal guns. This fact makes your argument unviable.

2

Def 1

 capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately

EX: viable alternatives

Def 2

 capable of existence and development as an independent unit

EX: The device is now viable.

Def 3

having a reasonable chance of succeeding

EX: a viable candidate

(Meriam Webster Dictionary)

I'm not sure what delusional world you live in where you only choose 1 definition (comprehension) of a word, and use it as the only definition.

We will have to agree to disagree on the Mk-1 Furis being end game content viable (without extenuating circumstances).
However since I need to explain this further to you, I use the MK-1 Furis (MR/noob fodder) as the example because of the blanket statement "All secondary's are viable", they are NOT all viable.

The fact that there is a severe amount of disparaging usage towards just one right now, (from DE's reporting), makes my example very accurate and spot on.
I would say my statement, not argument, is viable indeed.
Thanks for playing though!

 

 

 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

I didn’t even think that the catchmoon was any better than the other kitguns

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

Yeah unfortunately it is. It does need to be brought down a peg or two by itself (it is OP), however if they made other guns a bit better we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, I personally like my AKMagnus, I like the way they look and they do a good job. 😀

[Miyabi-sama]

Oh, that's where the evil lies. I use english language, and you american. Ok. And I picked the definition by context, not copypasting the whole dictionary page to prove "i can google" for my further embarassment, but "agree to disagree".

So judging by your very definition, Cupthcmun is not viable in this game since it performs unadequately. It is unadequately strong relative to other guns. And the brainless simplicity of using it trivializes the whole purpose of shooter. I can compare it to unlimited BFG in DOOM.

And may I remind you about a massive buff for primaries and secondaries long ago. Including akmagnus. Does it need to be buffed even more? Turn every gun in Rubico?

Lastly, your nitpicking just straight infuriating. Yes I told "all secondaries viable". Do I need to be clarifying there is obvious exceptions, like weak noob guns or some other weapons (Stug anybody?) that in dire need of revisit, for every noname trying to beat me in wits for some reason?

[Xxx-Shinobi-xxX]

3 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Oh, that's where the evil lies. I use english language, and you american. Ok. And I picked the definition by context, not copypasting the whole dictionary page to prove "i can google" for my further embarassment, but "agree to disagree".

So judging by your very definition, Cupthcmun is not viable in this game since it performs unadequately. It is unadequately strong relative to other guns. And the brainless simplicity of using it trivializes the whole purpose of shooter. I can compare it to unlimited BFG in DOOM.

And may I remind you about a massive buff for primaries and secondaries long ago. Including akmagnus. Does it need to be buffed even more? Turn every gun in Rubico?

Lastly, your nitpicking just straight infuriating. Yes I told "all secondaries viable". Do I need to be clarifying there is obvious exceptions, like weak noob guns or some other weapons (Stug anybody?) that in dire need of revisit, for every noname trying to beat me in wits for some reason?

Yes you chose the definition that best supported your view point, that's something you shouldn't do, as I showed you , can look up the rest of the definition of the word, which debunked your view point. Don't blame me for doing what you did first.

I will say this again, what D.E. SHOULD be doing, is not nerfing a gun so bad, as much as, they should be taking the other approach and bring up some (SOME) of the other secondary's to make them MORE viable. This would allow a large portion of the players to choose a secondary different than the Catchmoon, without feeling they are at a disadvantage in a gun fight.

Does the AkMagnus need to be buffed? I would say NO, I like it the way it is right now.

My statement was when you say ALL... that's ALL, if you didn't mean ALL , than don't try to "over-extend" your words by making a blanket statement. That's not nit picking, that is putting holes in your debate/response statement. If you wanted to say there are exceptions, then don't use the word ALL. It's a very simple word, with a very simple definition. (Whether you get it from the Cambridge Dictionary or not. 😀 ).