Kuva lich stealing loot is a brilliant game design decision. Here’s why.

[(PSN)FK2P]

I’m a big dark souls fan, I like a game to feel unfair, because it switches my brain on. It makes me engaged. 

This game revolves around mindless loot, most people play the game half AFK. and so I believe if an enemy takes loot from you, that is a direct way to make you dislike the enemy. The more hated and feared an enemy is, the better it’s design.

This is good enemy design.

An enemy in game, isn’t supposed to be a loot container that you crack open, it’s supposed to challenge you, your supposed to feel the fear, and you aren’t supposed to enjoy the things that enemies do to you but you are absolutely allowed to enjoy killing it, and you will 4x as much after it has stolen precious items from you! I’m sad to see people upset with this design, I feel like if you dislike a particular enemy, it’s probably a well designed enemy, however I will say a few things about it:

I would prefer if the enemy steals loot directly from me instead of from the end of the mission. 

Overall I would like to see some more obnoxious and challenging entities in warframe. Things with more complex patterns that aren’t just giant hit boxes with different weapons. However I feel like most of the time when I take damage in this game, it’s AOE and random, I wish the game were more solid so that you could actively avoid damage, unless you make mistakes. I don’t exactly know what the kuva lich will be yet, but I hope it’s not just a bullet sponge, or I’ll just put on valkyr 24/7 🙂 (imagine a wolf of Saturn with energy drain) inaros meta 100%

anyway, very excited to see how DE can make me really dislike this new enemy and make me really enjoy killing it! 

Edited October 27, 2019 by (PS4)FK2P

[bl1te]

You dislike an enemy for its character, actions, responses, etc.

But here we are talking about mechanics, not the enemy itself. And these mechanics are made by developers. So people dislike developers.

I assume you made this thread after reading this one:

But I'm sure you haven't read all the replies there. Do it. There are more arguments and explanations on why it is bad.

Edit: The main point is that DE said that you will return most of your stolen stuff, they didn't say anything about 100% of stolen stuff. Imagine farming mutagen samples, Stalker/Zanuka pigments, rare mods and so on. Kuva L33ch steals it. You defeat him, but... stuff is gone.

Also this fact kinda interferes with people farming things with boosters. => wasted boosters and platinum (possibly real money) because of stupid mechanics.

Edited October 27, 2019 by bl1te

[MorradiX]

All I know is...if there is a chance of loosing something I spent alot of time and effort to get,I will be avoiding the encounter  if at all possible...  😞

[Genitive]

I don't know about this loot stealing thing. Some ideas sound good on paper, but fail in practice. But if it proves to be too annoying I guess DE will just get rid of it.

[Fallen77]

il y a une heure, (PS4)FK2P a dit :

I’m a big dark souls fan, I like a game to feel unfair, because it switches my brain on. It makes me engaged. 

Dark souls is not unfair, precisely the opposite, there are VERY FEW moments where the game drops you something by surprise.

For the HUGE majority of the games (dark souls 2 doesn't count obviously), you will be punished for not paying attention, but if you do, you'll never get ganked by something unfair.

I get that you are talking about the hard/challenging aspect of DS, but you litteraly open by saying that DS is unfair and nothing else, and that's completely incorrect.

 

[taiiat]

wait, you play Dork Souls, but you want games to be unfair?

but
Dork Souls usually isn't unfair.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

I’m literally crying at a majority of the community right now. So they are literally saying “if this enemy takes my loot I won’t fight him I’ll avoid him” LOL what is this man. The moment de presents some challenge and nerfs and the community has a fit. 

[Marine027]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Fallen77:

Dark souls is not unfair

I disagree, yes it has good mechancis and the story and maps are amazing in Dark Souls, gameplay tho, its average and sometimes bad, Dark Souls 1, enemys hitting trough walls why you can't as example, and the game purely relays on learnign all patterns without failing once, this is not challenging.

Don't get me wrong i like the games but people need to stop wanting every game like a Dark Souls game, people make mistakes, no one is perfect, stop wanting us beeing machines to learn one game blindly, i want variety on games not not a doctor work on one software. This is why continues and extra lifes exist, games should not be work, they should be fun.

[mcdoo]

I like the idea. Warframe had become boring for me, never into fashion frame I wanted good runs and stronger enemies. I might even reinstall to give it a try. 

I like how many people are either scared or preparing to rage whine after this drops. Hilarious. Reminds me why games die. 

[Acersecomic]

It will be so satisfying to pop that Kuva Lich and get an insane amount of loot from it. Imagine an hour long farming survival in an affected system, together with few other missions etc and then breaking open that Lich Container. It's a Borderlands Loot Shower ❤️

[Jiminez_Burial]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m literally crying at a majority of the community right now. So they are literally saying “if this enemy takes my loot I won’t fight him I’ll avoid him” LOL what is this man. The moment de presents some challenge and nerfs and the community has a fit. 

But when you consider someone could be farming for a specific mod for months (think CO) and then when it finally does drop a lich steals it, then that would incur a significant amount of understandable salt.  That person wouldn't have failed the mission, and maybe the lich has influence over the only efficient node for farming the item and as a result they lost the item they 'earned'.  If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable, but having an NPC take an item that is RNG is just stupid.  There will be a period of time after release where players don't have the items to deal with the liches and therefor have no counter to the lich stealing their stuff.  That isn't challenge, that's some bullS#&$.

[Airwolfen]

7 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

But when you consider someone could be farming for a specific mod for months (think CO) and then when it finally does drop a lich steals it, then that would incur a significant amount of understandable salt.  That person wouldn't have failed the mission, and maybe the lich has influence over the only efficient node for farming the item and as a result they lost the item they 'earned'.  If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable, but having an NPC take an item that is RNG is just stupid.  There will be a period of time after release where players don't have the items to deal with the liches and therefor have no counter to the lich stealing their stuff.  That isn't challenge, that's some bullS#&$.

By luck I get it. But why would you farm for CO on a Kuva lich tile at that point.

[Helch0rn]

I don't think it's brilliant game design.

But I also don't think it's terrible game design.

given the fact that we are drowning in loot, I don't care if those idiots take 50% of the rubedo I got in a mission.

30 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

But when you consider someone could be farming for a specific mod for months (think CO) and then when it finally does drop a lich steals it, then that would incur a significant amount of understandable salt.  That person wouldn't have failed the mission, and maybe the lich has influence over the only efficient node for farming the item and as a result they lost the item they 'earned'.  If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable, but having an NPC take an item that is RNG is just stupid.  There will be a period of time after release where players don't have the items to deal with the liches and therefor have no counter to the lich stealing their stuff.  That isn't challenge, that's some bullS#&$.

didn't DE say that Liches don't steal the rare mods? I might be wrong but I think I heard something like that

[bibmobello]

It could be fun if they can steal everything from your equipment, even a full modded weapon. The lucky guy who kill them take everything.

[-CdG-Piggles-]

53 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

> If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable

But, the Lich only steals stuff if you die to him, so you did do something wrong... ? Just don't die ... 

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m literally crying at a majority of the community right now. So they are literally saying “if this enemy takes my loot I won’t fight him I’ll avoid him” LOL what is this man. The moment de presents some challenge and nerfs and the community has a fit. 

This isn't a challenge its s dumb design that gives no challenge to the player but stealing their well earned loot but continue licking dev's boot

[BornWithTeeth]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Dark souls is not unfair, precisely the opposite, there are VERY FEW moments where the game drops you something by surprise.

For the HUGE majority of the games (dark souls 2 doesn't count obviously), you will be punished for not paying attention, but if you do, you'll never get ganked by something unfair.

I get that you are talking about the hard/challenging aspect of DS, but you litteraly open by saying that DS is unfair and nothing else, and that's completely incorrect.

 

Yeah, Derp Souls and its sister and descendant games are better described as ‘brutally, relentlessly fair’. Just about every time you die in a souls game, it’s because either the game is teaching you something or you made a mistake.

[RX-3DR]

When you think about it, this is one form of sustainable content. Even if you gotten everything new from them, there will always be reasons to go back to fighting them, to get back the stolen stuff. A year from now, we would still be fighting them semi-regularly to get whatever new resources are stolen back from them.

Funny enough, people don't see it as sustainable content because it's not their ideal version of sustainable, which is new content produced faster than it is consumed.

[HugintheCrow]

5 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

I’m a big dark souls fan, I like a game to feel unfair, because it switches my brain on. It makes me engaged.

Considering that Dark Souls series is one of the most fair games out there, this sentence makes no sense.

If you like unfair games, Warframe might be right up your alley. Only oneshots from nowhere here (or complete immortality).

[(PSN)Silverback73]

6 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

I’m a big dark souls fan, I like a game to feel unfair, because it switches my brain on. It makes me engaged. 

This game revolves around mindless loot, most people play the game half AFK. and so I believe if an enemy takes loot from you, that is a direct way to make you dislike the enemy. The more hated and feared an enemy is, the better it’s design.

This is good enemy design.

An enemy in game, isn’t supposed to be a loot container that you crack open, it’s supposed to challenge you, your supposed to feel the fear, and you aren’t supposed to enjoy the things that enemies do to you but you are absolutely allowed to enjoy killing it, and you will 4x as much after it has stolen precious items from you! I’m sad to see people upset with this design, I feel like if you dislike a particular enemy, it’s probably a well designed enemy, however I will say a few things about it:

I would prefer if the enemy steals loot directly from me instead of from the end of the mission. 

Overall I would like to see some more obnoxious and challenging entities in warframe. Things with more complex patterns that aren’t just giant hit boxes with different weapons. However I feel like most of the time when I take damage in this game, it’s AOE and random, I wish the game were more solid so that you could actively avoid damage, unless you make mistakes. I don’t exactly know what the kuva lich will be yet, but I hope it’s not just a bullet sponge, or I’ll just put on valkyr 24/7 🙂 (imagine a wolf of Saturn with energy drain) inaros meta 100%

anyway, very excited to see how DE can make me really dislike this new enemy and make me really enjoy killing it! 

Unless they go one step further and have your lich use your stolen loot to custom build/design an artifact/cosmetic/weapon etc unique to your Warframe experience to use against you and get reclaimed, this is an artificially forced incentive and/or risk that isn’t needed.

In a game all about rewarding time invested with progress, power, and loot, this will, at best annoy people.

The Lich has enough incentives built in.

If DE wants to pull a “power inversion play” with Requiem (Immortal) key-combo Mods and stack that on classic power-progression challenges of a lich that grows stronger per kill by player choice or is made an RnG stalker buddy at current strength, ok.

But just stealing your stuff to force you to get it back without it transforming into something more personal?  Ehhh...I vote to drop this or expand it into a transformative experience.

Have the Lich use said loot to build something uniquely personal to the player based on play style.

Just a first impression.

Edited October 27, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[GTX49]

5 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

most people play the game half AFK

Needless to say this is true.

Either way it's a genius design, but at same time it can either lead to two things; either players wont touch the Lich, or, if they do, they'll cry on the forums for the lost stuff!

[Fallen77]

il y a 23 minutes, Marine027 a dit :

I disagree, yes it has good mechancis and the story and maps are amazing in Dark Souls, gameplay tho, its average and sometimes bad, Dark Souls 1, enemys hitting trough walls why you can't as example, and the game purely relays on learnign all patterns without failing once, this is not challenging.

Don't get me wrong i like the games but people need to stop wanting every game like a Dark Souls game, people make mistakes, no one is perfect, stop wanting us beeing machines to learn one game blindly, i want variety on games not not a doctor work on one software. This is why continues and extra lifes exist, games should not be work, they should be fun.

Hitting through walls... Yeah... That's always been the biggest complaint uh ? Sure... There are so few times when it happens that's funny, the all game is not unfair for that... (Ofc new londo's ghosts are intended to work that way, they're ghosts).

Now, learning the ennemy paterns, you may like it or not, but it's not unfair either, and it IS challenging if you actually use your brain and don't face rush and die until your muscles learn the timing instead of your brain. Learning all paterns without failing once ? BS, there is so much lineancy for you to make mistakes, even at the very start you have way enough estus to misstime half your dodges and be perfectly fine. With any vaguely competent build, you should never get one shot before NG+3. I understand why you could dislike such system, but there is Nothing unfair in patern learning. And even if it really was "learn all the attacks perfectly, don't miss a single step and nothing else", it would be challenging (very), and even if you don't like the system (which is OK ofc), claiming otherwise is completely idiotic. It's not challenging in the way YOU would have wanted, but it would still be challenging, don't pass it as something else just because you don't like it, that's weak.

Again, Dark Souls is precisely one of the most fair game out there. There is no ennemy that you can't spot before he jumps you, no trap that you can't see ahead, there are so very few things you could qualify as "cheap". If you mess up, that's entirely your fault. (Again, I'm excluding Dark Souls 2 because it's a big anomaly in the franchise, does everything backward) All that makes Dark Souls a very fair game, and saying otherwise is the mark of someone that did not try to be carefull and play by the game's rules, because if you did, you'd know that such statement cannot be more wrong.

 

Now, you only quoted me, and all I said was that Dark Souls is fair. What does that have to do with people asking for more challenging game ? Nothing. But I'll still answer :

Why do you think people are always looking for the next " as hard as dark souls" game ? Maybe because a majority of the existing games are so easy that a toddler can complete it. "What bave you been playing ?", " Oh, that game where you just walk around and nothing can stop you from winning no matter how bad you are, no test of your skills nor whit, you just win, sounds fun right ?"

Variety has nothing to do with challenging, you made the correlation, but there is no causality here. There are very easy and repetetive games and very hard but varied games, that's a non statement.

Continues existed because you could buy one for a quarter, not because making a game easier was fun. They were there because arcade games were killing you in very cheap ways too. And we have them in WF because many unavoidable things can one shot you without any headsup, not because easy AF is fun, but to counter the cheapness of most deaths. Which isn't in dark souls because almost everything is fair in that game.

 

If you don't care whatsoever about being challenged, you are free to go watch TV, play candy crush and run Eprime. But don't advocate for less interactivity in an interactive software. Because when you make a game easier, you remove importance to gameplay aspects (positionning, taking damage, etc), up to the point where you don't have to interact with those systems at all, effectively rendering those obsolete, now there's less game in the game, cool...

 

When you're a kid, you can have a blast smashing appart a defensless lego construct. But when you grow up, people naturally stop having any interest in this, and start looking for challenges, to test and better there skills, that's the way it is. Give it enough time and you'll also be asking for more difficulty in WF, some people can take much longer to be bored of smashing the defensless lego construct, but we all get past it eventually.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

This isn't a challenge its s dumb design that gives no challenge to the player but stealing their well earned loot but continue licking dev's boot

Loot that you can get back... and even so if it’s no challenge then just go ahead and get said loot back???

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

5 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

But when you consider someone could be farming for a specific mod for months (think CO) and then when it finally does drop a lich steals it, then that would incur a significant amount of understandable salt.  That person wouldn't have failed the mission, and maybe the lich has influence over the only efficient node for farming the item and as a result they lost the item they 'earned'.  If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable, but having an NPC take an item that is RNG is just stupid.  There will be a period of time after release where players don't have the items to deal with the liches and therefor have no counter to the lich stealing their stuff.  That isn't challenge, that's some bullS#&$.

Let me ask you this? Do you really think that if warframe is going to make this accessible to everyone which they likely are were not going to be able to deal with these enemy? Of course they are. And even if it’s for vets I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to pop of for new players I’m speculating that they’ll prolly spawn in your instance and take your loot after you unlock the moon and your kid. As they’ll probably have kuva guardians. They’ll likely not effect everyone on release but the players who have the kuva fortress unlocked. In Essence if this is the case it’s fine. And again. If this mode is tailored towards the long standing wf player then.... most of us have these mods and even so you just kill said enemy to get the loot back of capture them... you guys are over complicating this with what ifs as if most of us don’t have something like co or br or something in that manner. Saying “what about the new player etcetc he might not be able to get it” when in reality you just don’t like the concept which is okay. But it seems like it’s a good idea to try

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

5 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

But when you consider someone could be farming for a specific mod for months (think CO) and then when it finally does drop a lich steals it, then that would incur a significant amount of understandable salt.  That person wouldn't have failed the mission, and maybe the lich has influence over the only efficient node for farming the item and as a result they lost the item they 'earned'.  If that person did something wrong then the loss of the item is reasonable, but having an NPC take an item that is RNG is just stupid.  There will be a period of time after release where players don't have the items to deal with the liches and therefor have no counter to the lich stealing their stuff.  That isn't challenge, that's some bullS#&$.

Also in response to you saying we won’t have the items to fight them... they are giving us or likley putting us through a quest to get the blade. You run the missions for the mods to kill them so.... you’re able to get the required items to kill them fairly easily. I’m sure they won’t take the mods from the assassins creed blade that’s needed to kill them because that would be quite redundant