Why Warframe has such a great playerbase

[Flying_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Gamemodes either struggle to give more than one Player something to do at a time or are setup so that Players can stand in locations nowhere near each other for the entire Mission?

Dang bro, you hit the nail on the head with my experiences lately. I actually think this is good feedback. This is why I've been asking for more challenging content - enemies with enough hitpoints to sustain fire for a few seconds from 4 players at the same time, and that do enough damage that force players into actually taking cover or putting a tank in front. 

[Flying_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

it's possible, but it hinges on there being actual challenges to push Players there, rather than the 'participation award' that is the summary for basically the entire game so far, where simply Logging in and clicking Play means you win.

omg you sound kind of like a jerk but I identify with what you are saying same time hahaha. I agree :S I didn't say it in any of my previous posts but it really does feel like you win for just participating and yeah...I have seen the childish and weak attitudes from those who fear a challenge.

 

I'm seeing now the contradictory messages here though. I like Warframe because I am not reliant upon other players. But I also agree with you that challenging content that requires teamwork is not really there (with some exceptions such as Eidolon hunting) - most of the time it's like 4 players running around solo and occupying the same space. Even if I'm playing a support character like Oberon or Harrow, I am forced to run AWAY from my team mates sometimes in order to actually keep my energy levels up. (rage on Oberon and Harrow is...Harrow)

 

Just off the top of my head, in some games enemy hit points scale up with # of players. That's one way other games deal with this problem. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Flying_Scorpion

[Sloan441]

14 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Just off the top of my head, in some games enemy hit points scale up with # of players. That's one way other games deal with this problem. 

This is one way that Diablo 2 dealt with scaling. Every player added 100% to the AI's hit points. Things got pretty sporty pretty quickly if you were on your own in an eight player game. Think it was eight. It's been awhile. However, if you were an advanced player, this sort of thing was quite doable. 

I'd like to see such a thing in WF. 

Another alternative would be a difficulty slider like what you see in Diablo 3. Again, you could really crank the difficulty if you had the gear. 

The problem WF faces, is your enemies don't really drop loot. You don't get new gear with new difficulties. You buy your equipment from the market or farm tokens to get it and then use your mods to make it do what you want. At a certain point, new stuff doesn't really mean that much. You already have the widgets to make it strong, it's just a matter of plugging in the correct widgets and you're good to go. 

Still, a slider for hit points or some other form of scaling would be welcome, but then you have the issue of how do you filter teams? Personally, I'd go the hands off route and just let the player beware. That's how the game was six years ago and you did get the occasional rude awakening when you were pushing at the star chart or into NM missions. 

[Flying_Scorpion]

9 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

Another alternative would be a difficulty slider like what you see in Diablo 3. Again, you could really crank the difficulty if you had the gear. 

Yeah I posted a thread about this here:

 

 

And someone else put a lot of work into an idea similar to this here:

TL;DR- use the Fortuna alert level system but let it go to infinity. So you have control of letting it scale both up and down dynamically during the mission itself. 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Flying_Scorpion

[Gentleman_Bird]

Players: "We want more challenge"

Also players: "Stop nerfing the best guns"

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

Found the Negative Nancy....

It's a freaking game. If someone is not playing up to your par that you invited, help them get there not DAS BOOT them so they now have the experience of being kicked.

People remember the negative more than positive as the world gives them more negative.

The game had much more positives such as the OP when it first came out. People realized it was a small community and helped out since they recalled how it felt to be the new kid on the block. As the game aged and other found it from other games (CoD, Battlefield, Minecraft) the attitude changed more from helping out to getting rewards as fast as possible. This was in part from the PvP attitudes, DE changing the Void to Relics and traces, and the time limits placed on how long each Fissure would last. No more of the go do runs for the fun and get something for playing. Now it's run as fast as you can and if you don't have a Relic, you don't get Jack.

And ....that is the reason RANDOM ACTS such as these barely happen anymore....

Small communities and fresh games tend to lead to better player experience, but once a game goes long on enough, you are going to get them negative elements in some way(Scammers, RMT spam, over powered loadouts such as with pvp would be guns that can two-three shot kill you when other guns of the same category would normally take 5-7). I just simply have two major gripes that stand out the most on warframe, more so then the others i would call more as nit picks: Market chat and what i would like to say `people having lack of enthusiam when doing a grind of sorts.`, which mainly applies to those that rarely want to do more then one rotation of exp/loot. Despite the fact on hydron, you get progressively more affinity per rotation due to the higher enemy scaling, then just spamming wave 5 rotations only. The other being those who do not really notice how much time you waste reloading the mission, even when the enemies are so weak that you could likely one shot them still in wave 45, yet they rather reset at 15 every time, even if the fissure is already closed.

Best ways to fix those issues? Former is to have a market system that keeps the `social element` as non-existent as possible, which warframe kind of ruined that opp for something as simple as a Search item, buy item to get item or list item and let it get sold easy system. Later being the simple Give benefits for going longer in endless type missions that far outweigh the enemies scaling up, Only thing D.E. has with that is Fissure`s mini boosters, but i feel like those need to get jacked up to +25% to +50% and each round focus on resource boosters only and each 10th round should provide a bonus pack of traces with much higher base value then the bad scaling traces give. Plus just plain put the current one for fissures in all endless missions period, especially the `bonus relic` on the 4th or so rotation, just like how bounties actually give you a bonus loot pool for perfect clearing a bounty mission.

Granted, it would of probably help if D.E. designed the loot in a better way then absurdly low drop chances, such as maybe have it where you go longer in endless missions, the odds of getting the rarer loot would scale up would scale expontially till you reach a point of getting a 100% chance to get a rare item and probably throw in getting multiple bits of loot on said longer rotations.

If Borderlands series taught one thing, people LOVE IT when they get a LOOT-EXPLOSION of goodies. 

....Plus a actual tissue system on the higher level content like arbitations would be also a nice step in the right direction, maybe slap a special sticker on it, so it basically declares: `You got this loot by doing this mission 99 times and that declares you put the effort to get it, even despite rngsus decided to screw you over in the worst way possible.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Avienas

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

This is why I've been asking for more challenging content - enemies with enough hitpoints to sustain fire for a few seconds from 4 players at the same time, and that do enough damage that force players into actually taking cover or putting a tank in front. 

eh, that's not challenging, just bigger numbers. just octupling the Health of everything wouldn't make Enemies more interesting to fight, and not really encourage teamwork still. there are Enemies that actually do things than just soak up one bullet in the game, we just don't see many of them. i.e. more advanced Enemies that have more Abilities and features exist, but they're like 5-10% of the Enemies we see. with the rest of the Enemies existing to be useless.

changing that, would dramatically increase the perceived difficulty, reaching moderate levels without needing to just add two zeros to the end of Enemy Health&Damage.

2 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I'm seeing now the contradictory messages here though. I like Warframe because I am not reliant upon other players

sure, it's nice to be capable of playing without full support from 3 other Players. i wouldn't want to be unable to play without 3 other people ready to work with me. i just want something in the middle where the Player is encouraged to and there's a reason to bother doing it, but that you can still 'get to the end' by yourself.
so traditional MMO's often fill the side of "8 people doing this this this that and this in this order" being a necessity, and Warframe currently generally filling the side of "just walk to the end of the Mission". both of these are something lame, but something in the middle would work nicely here.
then the game actually pushes back, rather than not pushing at all and just cheating to be 'difficult'. :)

 

 

18 minutes ago, Avienas said:

`You got this loot by doing this mission 99 times and that declares you put the effort to get it, even despite rngsus decided to screw you over in the worst way possible.

i don't see that as any sort of benefit, as the entire game is about collecting stuff for the sake of collecting stuff. if the game throws you a gimme, you collected the things faster, so that you can have nothing to do, faster.
not that i want 0.01% 'Drop Chances', but collecting things is the only thing the game has to offer, so ways to make it faster to collect the things doesn't really improve the Gameplay experience in the long term unless it's some sort of 'skill check' or active things that the Player is doing to collect the things faster.

Edited October 28, 2019 by taiiat

[Avienas]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't see that as any sort of benefit, as the entire game is about collecting stuff for the sake of collecting stuff. if the game throws you a gimme, you collected the things faster, so that you can have nothing to do, faster.
not that i want 0.01% 'Drop Chances', but collecting things is the only thing the game has to offer, so ways to make it faster to collect the things doesn't really improve the Gameplay experience in the long term unless it's some sort of 'skill check' or active things that the Player is doing to collect the things faster.

The benefit is based on FF14 and similar games which used the mechanic to allow people to GUARANTEE they would get it after doing it for so long. Its one of the best ways to offset absurdly bad drop rates, such as chasing Extreme tier bosses for mount whistles where it could take up to 5 to 20 times before you see a whistle drop and then more then likely you have to compete with 7 other people to roll the highest number out of 100 to get the item.

Plus if we had to do a comparison to similar content in warframe, imagine doing a nightmare raid of Law of Retribution solo with excalibur and you are stuck using a braton and you auto fail the mission if you die once. Thats how difficult it was to do extreme primal boss fights in FF14 when they were released. It gets way easier when you get higher level ilevel gear(plus everyone learning how to do the fight perfectly), but that`s mainly since you reach a point you can skip entire phases of absurdly hard to do mechanics, which can range from invisible AoE nukes to literally running around the entire battle arena to not get caught in the explosion that could be telegraphed in some pattern.

Plus i said 99 for a reason, you Literally had to clear the fight 99 times to get that guaranteed mount(not even counting when you needed to get between 5-7 of them for each expansion for the super version of those 5-7 mounts per Primal boss), and due to how difficult the fight can be, its not something people want to do more then a few times and even worst to keep preparing a new group, unless it was the first week of when that content drop, where most likely have zero idea on how to do the fight, which makes it even worst to farm for the tissues.

But granted, This is why i mentioned expotential reward scaling in endless type missions, which actually will challenge players to bring sturdy builds that let them kill high level enemies and increasingly up the odds to be more favorable to get what they want. Practically all the content does not really follow that logic outside of just figuring out which type is the best to farm, which pretty much dumbs down to disruption these days for general relics or when bounties do not have the specific relic you want. Before that, excavation speed running, interceptions like xini eris for neo/axis, etc.

Not really much `FUN` alternatives to chase after relics, nor much of a way to take one`s experience to greatly improve the pacing to get said relics.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Uhm yea....I met a bored vet who was playing another game and he or she has probably given me 1000 plat worth of stuff since I've been playing lololol.

Gave me some halfway maxed basic mods so I wouldn't waste my endo. Taught me how to do eidolons, gave me more mods for my smeeta, gave me a pax charge and 2 nullifiers for eidolons as well. 

I wouldn't be where I was without the guy!

[Kimimoto]

9 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

It stays that way as long as you avoid the forums.

Almost like the forums are the vocal minority, even if they claim otherwise

[Xzorn]

10 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

EQ was a very cooperative game. You could do very little on your own and were almost absolutely dependent on others for progression. Consequently, there was NO tolerance for foolishness of any sort. The game penalized failure very heavily through massive experience loss. Needless to say, the community was very quick to ostracize That Guy--and they made it stick.

 

Bad Players were called out and could earn server-wide reputations forcing them to learn, be respectful and do their best? How awful.

Guilds were incredibly important in EQ having players to stick up for you, put up with you and teach you. If the player made no effort into getting into a guild for these aspects and just wanted the phat lewtz then they would be treated as such. There were non-raid friend guilds, casual guilds and raiding guilds. All types to fit a player's fancy.

EQ, among all is amazing features and in-game interactions. Player driven economies, transportation services, buff services, ect had one very fatal flaw and it wasn't one you exactly mentioned. Raids in that game where a stats smashing game. Bosses were immune to everything so individual players actually had very few options out of a slew of abilities. Hmm.. sound familiar? This turned the high end into social favoritism rather than performance. In many ways the opposite of your claims.

There's nothing wrong with having favorites but performance must also play a part. In EQ Raiding it did not which resulted in disrespectful, unskilled and generally foul players getting what they want simply because they were friends with Officers. I maintain the best parts of EQ were the dungeon crawls. Not the Raids, Not the Exp camps but those times when you'd get 10 people together and just go  "Hey lets see how far we get".

I still play p99 for that reason. Sure I have two fully Raid geared characters but Raids kinda suck. They didn't age well and Raid management also sucks. I join a collection of multi guild friends each night to dig deep into a dungeon and have a good time. Places where enemies aren't immune to everything, player skill stands out and everyone knows their teammates and thrust them to do their job without micro managing. As a Druid our Chanters never have to call out for healing because they know I'm watching and already on it. Likewise I never have to ask for C because they have that timed out perfectly. I say "Need a pet", chanter stuns, debuffs, I charm + buff. Done. I say "Lost my pet" someone spot heals me while I re-charm. Hardly any actual game commands. It's a well oiled machine and it's great fun leaving plenty of time to goof around and talk.

That's the sweet spot I feel every MMO should aspire to hit. Warframe had that for a blink of an eye. Long ago.

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

Players: "We want more challenge"

Also players: "Stop nerfing the best guns"

 

The two intersect on occasion but they do far more often than they should in Warframe because Difficulty never goes up.

Challenge as a result can never actually be challenging. You simply can't have challenge without difficulty. It just comes out feeling like chores instead.

[fatpig84]

Your mileage will vary, but generally players are not utter $&*^s as Warframe is cooperative, you never know even a lowly MR3 picks you when you blow yourself up with a 6 forma penta (like myself).

However, forum and reddit is much more intense as everyone has their own way of balance and playing, so disagreements tend to be... harsh.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 1 heure, (XB1)TyeGoo a dit :

I disagree, this forum sucks ass..

In my experience, despite all the circlejerks etc it's still one of the best community forums I've been a part of. 

 

Compared to other online games i played (ie world of tanks) this place is golden.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Autongnosis

[0_The_F00l]

It doesn't really have abetter community , its like every other community with decent and not so decent players,

there are just less reasons for one player to piss another one off that are prevalent in other games.

and its relatively easier to communicate in game (one of the best lobbies in the industry ,by far, allowing you to get S#&$ done and chat while still being connected without actually playing in missions) and ask for help , and being a large community 1 out of a hundred is bound to assist , the other 99 wont even care to respond rather than say something rude.

 

Once again it is not a bad community and can be helpful at times, but lets not say its the best one out there.

[MPonder]

There is no best or worst community, there is just one single gamer community.

 

If a game has fail chance with any form of punishment like ranked games (Overwatch, League), people will get pissed off and will trash talk each other.

If it is a Warframe game with 0 chance to fail a mission unless you try really hard to fail, and you can carry the mission by yourself while facerolling the keyboard, then there is almost no reason for people to trash talk each other.

[Sloan441]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

EQ, among all is amazing features and in-game interactions. Player driven economies, transportation services, buff services, ect had one very fatal flaw and it wasn't one you exactly mentioned. Raids in that game where a stats smashing game. Bosses were immune to everything so individual players actually had very few options out of a slew of abilities. Hmm.. sound familiar? This turned the high end into social favoritism rather than performance. In many ways the opposite of your claims.

Yes and no. 

I was mostly referring to the leveling process, whether it was grinding for actual levels or AA. Raiding...bosses were mostly a bag of hps on an enrage timer. As the game went on, this changed to some degree, but it was still mostly a game of aggro management and if your raid group was geared well enough to beat the timer. The bar was fairly low, but even then it seemed out of reach to a lot of people--and you would be blackballed very quickly if you were troublesome or couldn't get with the program. The time investments in doing anything were huge, so you simply couldn't afford idiocy. 

As for favoritism...eh, there were guild politics and it could get ugly. People being people with all that entails and it could appear in any guild, social or raiding. I had the dubious pleasure of going through this a few times in both sorts. Unsurprisingly, a lot of the drama centered around loot. However, a successful guild needed it's members well-geared. You weren't going anywhere unless everyone were of roughly equivalent power. 

[Sloan441]

7 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I disagree, this forum sucks ass..

 

Heh, you can always tell the young'uns. 

This forum is all butterflies and rainbows compared to any Blizzard forum, almost any MMORPG forum, and even interest-based message boards. DE moderates pretty closely, but believe me this one is about as civil as it gets when it comes to the internet. 

I've said this many times and I guess it bears repeating: if you like a game, stay away from its forums. The negativity will pull you down. This advice was given to me many years ago by an online friend (it was mostly concerning EQ and Diablo 2). It's valid. I don't follow it because this stuff doesn't really affect me all that much, but it's something to keep in mind. 

[(NSW)1kSakura]

Pffft HAHA. I'm legit cry laughing right now 😂

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

As for favoritism...eh, there were guild politics and it could get ugly. People being people with all that entails and it could appear in any guild, social or raiding. I had the dubious pleasure of going through this a few times in both sorts. Unsurprisingly, a lot of the drama centered around loot. However, a successful guild needed it's members well-geared. You weren't going anywhere unless everyone were of roughly equivalent power. 

 

What made guild politics esp problematic was the whole non-instanced encounters. There were at best 2-3 guilds that dominate a server. Sometimes even just one for long periods until they inevitably destroy themselves from within and form the new dominant guild. So if some Officer's jerk buddy didn't like you because you don't put up with their attitude then didn't matter how good you could play your class or how pleasant a player you were to the rest of the community.

Raid bosses being nothing but HP bags and a stat bashing encounter is kinda my purposeful comparison to Warframe of today. The contrast to my experience with friends delving deep into dungeons where all out abilities still work and back when the Void first came out and a similar situation was present. Both similar in that when you take away a player's options and the variety in their class / builds how do you even know if they're good at the game? There's no longer a standard. Just smash.

....and that's why I just spin in circles with Ignis 🤪

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 18 heures, Gentleman_Bird a dit :

Players: "We want more challenge"

Also players: "Stop nerfing the best guns"

The two groups are generally not the same people. 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

When you come to the forums you see the toxic side of warframe is the majority more than some of the time

[Fire2box]

The reason Warframe has a great player base is we need each others help to understand several of the basics of the game. 

For instance get a friend to try warframe and don't help them, don't let them ask anybody for help, no looking up guides and see how confused they get and how quickly.  

 

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

On 2019-10-27 at 4:04 PM, taiiat said:

roughly about the same in every game, and everywhere on the internet.

so, the anti-social nature of it by Players not having any reason to co-operate with each other in Gameplay? or that other Players mostly exist in your Missions to give you more l00t or to react when they see a Revive indicator on their screen, plus that they inject activity into the Chat? or that Gamemodes either struggle to give more than one Player something to do at a time or are setup so that Players can stand in locations nowhere near each other for the entire Mission?
Warframe is pretty anti-social, yo. being social isn't encouraged in 99% of the game and the Community by large has childish, toxic views on the 1% of the game that does.

I see you aren't in that 1% then.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I see you aren't in that 1% then.

amusing, but i seek out the 1% of the content in the game that allows for some actual social interaction and teamwork. that's.... the content that i login for on most days infact. the other AFKFarming zero challenge content that's the rest of the game i play pretty infrequently because i'm bored of standing around and doing essentially nothing, i already have been playing that for 5.5 years to some degree (and especially in the past 4 years since the last content additions that actually made an impact on the game as a whole stopped being Developed).