Empyreon Concerns...

[DOOMPATRIOT]

Am I the only one that things Railjack will be just like Lunaro?

DE themself said that Conclave and Archwing were a mistake and the player base really hate it.

Yall remember when Lunaro arrived?, it was kinda fun for the 1st 2 weeks, then banish, nothing at all, nobody played that, why? you might ask, because Lunaro was centred in Conclave, a gamemode that was hilariously bad and not fun (for the majority of the community), don't get me wrong, the concept of Lunaro is/ was really good, but that beeing in Conclave was what really killed it, to make it worse DE really tried pushing players to play Lunaro and had like 2 months of updates surrounding It.

Now let's move to Empyreon, a gamemode centred in Archwing, we all love Archwing right?

Do yall see my concern, hystorically speaking DE isn't very good at making gamemode that last more than a month.

I just hope DE doesn't make the same mistake, hope they can make Archwing more fun or something before/ when they realise It, otherwise it will become just like Lunaro, forgotten and untouched again.

Let me hear yall thoughts.

Edited October 27, 2019 by DOOMPATRIOT

[Lazarow]

I feel like you are wrong. Because railjack will have loot and likely it will be only obrinable there like mods or weapons unlike conclave which gives skins so there is no real reason to go in  conclave. But if they put some real nice mods/weapons in railjack I see people wanting that for collection or mastery

[AnOldAlias]

I personally think Empyrean will be different.

It has a lot going for it, if they do this right it will be a pretty insane boost to Warframe's playability.
We'll have to wait and see obviously, but, for me personally, I am excited.

I am bit concerned about why it's taking so long, though, but it is understandable from such a high-risk potential high-reward update.
 

[lukinu_u]

Do you have sources about them saying Archwings was a mistake ?

From what Steve said, space ship battle like Empyrean will be was the initial goal of Warframe and Archwings was a step into this direction. A lot of players sure hate it, but Archwings never was considered as a mistake because it was planed to lead toward Empyrean.

[Uhkretor]

There's something that people have a serious difficulty understanding about loving or hating archwing... Archwing is nothing more than a space personal transportation method, like the K-Drive is. The "Experimental Flight" method is actually interesting and would improve Archwing experience if we could use a joystick to take advantage of the Experimental Flight method, while keeping our use of Keyboard & Mouse.

The maps themselves could've been better, but its the control method itself that ends up being the main reason of either loving it or hating it.

 

Empyrean, apparently, seems to integrate Archwing into it. And it makes sense, if they keep all the stuff they showed at Tennocon (and possibly more additions) in it. The only thing I ask is to allow us to use a joystick to take advantage of the Archwing's Experimental Flight method, while keeping our use of Keyboard & Mouse.

[ExcaliburUmbra]

28 minutes ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Now let's move to Empyreon, a gamemode centred in Archwing, we all love Archwing right?

Let me hear yall thoughts.

My thoughts are that you’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Archwing is being changed to become integrated into Railjack, not the other way around. Empyrean is the center, while Archwing will be a “side-feature” of the mode. 

Plus, the devs have been pretty clear that they’ve learned from the mistakes of Archwing. They’ve been claiming that Empyrean won’t be some “island” of content isolated from the main game, but rather something that connects it all together. Whether they realize that claim will remain to be seen, but they’re at least saying the right things imo.

11 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

The only thing I ask is to allow us to use a joystick to take advantage of the Archwing's Experimental Flight method, while keeping our use of Keyboard & Mouse.

This would be so cool. Almost too cool to actually happen. Now I’m sad that this isn’t a thing currently.

Edited October 27, 2019 by ExcaliburUmbra

[o0Despair0o]

My only concern is how well they implement the ability to play solo.

 

If I gotta leave my Railjack every 40 seconds to do something else, I wonder why I even bothered to farm the materials for one.

Heck, I don't even wanna know how expensive that stuff is gonna be.

[Hixlysss]

15 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

My only concern is how well they implement the ability to play solo.

 

If I gotta leave my Railjack every 40 seconds to do something else, I wonder why I even bothered to farm the materials for one.

Heck, I don't even wanna know how expensive that stuff is gonna be.

From my understanding Solo play will be next to impossible, between the docking bay being a Clan Dojo item, you still need at least one other person for the other systems of the ship. That is, unless DE implements the ability for us to purchase NPC's who do these jobs for us...

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Railjack is centered around a giant ship. Archwing is only a small part of it.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Railjack is centered around a giant ship. Archwing is only a small part of it.

Yep, think of Archwings like fighter jets launching from a carrier.

Or in some cases, being shot out like a breaching charge to take over another ship entirely.

I have at least some faith that DE realized what was wrong with Archwing, the controls were one (and I can't say I know if they have done anything different for that) and lack of a purpose for them was the other.

At least if they are changed to an accessory rather than a fully dependent mode it might be easier to balance because it isn't a core focus of a mode.

[Uhkretor]

Just now, Aldain said:

being shot out like a breaching charge

... heh...

 

... That sounds just like a certain sentient living being's physiological need... xD

[-Krism-]

2 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

DE themself said that Conclave and Archwing were a mistake

ⓧDOUBT

Edited October 27, 2019 by Xenox_Ilz-ot

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Am I the only one that things Railjack will be just like Lunaro?

DE themself said that Conclave and Archwing were a mistake and the player base really hate it.

Yall remember when Lunaro arrived?, it was kinda fun for the 1st 2 weeks, then banish, nothing at all, nobody played that, why? you might ask, because Lunaro was centred in Conclave, a gamemode that was hilariously bad and not fun (for the majority of the community), don't get me wrong, the concept of Lunaro is/ was really good, but that beeing in Conclave was what really killed it, to make it worse DE really tried pushing players to play Lunaro and had like 2 months of updates surrounding It..

Apples to oranges

Conclave is unpopular because a lot of players come to Warframe to AVOID more PvP gameplay. On top of that Lunaro was always a transparent ripoff of Rocket League

Railjack by contrast is traditional PvE gameplay that the fanbase wants. It could theoretically be said to be inspired by games like Elite Dangerous or FTL, but it's not some transparent ripoff and seems to be DE's own creation first and foremost

[LSG501]

My view...

I can't exactly say I'd seen many people screaming for a large scale ship based battle mode (with what looks to be overly convoluted control setup) where players then need to go deal with the more interesting part of the mission (which is essentially the same as we already have) while 1 person is stuck in the large scale ship doing very little (based on video's)....

Honestly apart from the new cut scene I've seen nothing in railjack that couldn't have been done with just an archwing in all honesty.  When you boil it down (based on video's) the railjack ship is essentially the 'taxi' to the main mission which is at a basic level just a variation of sabotage/spy....

My biggest concern, even after the delays, is that based on previous 'big updates' DE is going to release something half baked and then basically 'ignore' the issues while they go work on their next big release in the duvari plains (which is also likely behind schedule).  Even worse is it might not live up to the 'hype' that DE have given it all and potentially not be 'good enough' for the players considering how long they've taken to release it. 

 

@HixlysssDE have said it should work in solo too, can't remember exactly but it essentially boiled down to an autopilot for the ship.  As to the other parts, kind of makes sense to stick the dry dock in the dojo (group farming resrouces) but at the same time it seems like a strange choice in terms of where you would keep your own ship when you already have a big 'ship' housing the liset etc....

[DOOMPATRIOT]

hace 5 horas, lukinu_u dijo:

Do you have sources about them saying Archwings was a mistake ?

From what Steve said, space ship battle like Empyrean will be was the initial goal of Warframe and Archwings was a step into this direction. A lot of players sure hate it, but Archwings never was considered as a mistake because it was planed to lead toward Empyrean.

It was in an interview (don't remember which one), Rebecca said: "We created Archwing and Conclave, which turns out nobody played..." something like that, you must have watched it before...

Sounds really interesting the thing you say Steve said, was it in an interview or a Devstream? (Really curious).

hace 42 minutos, LSG501 dijo:

My view...

I can't exactly say I'd seen many people screaming for a large scale ship based battle mode (with what looks to be overly convoluted control setup) where players then need to go deal with the more interesting part of the mission (which is essentially the same as we already have) while 1 person is stuck in the large scale ship doing very little (based on video's)....

Honestly apart from the new cut scene I've seen nothing in railjack that couldn't have been done with just an archwing in all honesty.  When you boil it down (based on video's) the railjack ship is essentially the 'taxi' to the main mission which is at a basic level just a variation of sabotage/spy....

My biggest concern, even after the delays, is that based on previous 'big updates' DE is going to release something half baked and then basically 'ignore' the issues while they go work on their next big release in the duvari plains (which is also likely behind schedule).  Even worse is it might not live up to the 'hype' that DE have given it all and potentially not be 'good enough' for the players considering how long they've taken to release it. 

I feel the same, Even tho it was supposed to be overhyped, but frankly I see more people that are more hyped about TNW instead of Empyreon, also I do think DE is going to drop it and then forget it exists, also looking forward to that beeing Solo.

hace 5 horas, ExcaliburUmbra dijo:

Plus, the devs have been pretty clear that they’ve learned from the mistakes of Archwing. They’ve been claiming that Empyrean won’t be some “island” of content isolated from the main game, but rather something that connects it all together. Whether they realize that claim will remain to be seen, but they’re at least saying the right things imo.

Hope DE can make that happen, honestly, and I ain't saying DE hasn't learn from Archwing.

hace 5 horas, Lazarow dijo:

I feel like you are wrong. Because railjack will have loot and likely it will be only obrinable there like mods or weapons unlike conclave which gives skins so there is no real reason to go in  conclave. But if they put some real nice mods/weapons in railjack I see people wanting that for collection or mastery

Archwing gives you loot aswell (you like it or not), I think you mean rewards?, but DE doesn't really know how to make  good rewards (at least right now), honestly apart from Kuva ,what do you consider a good reward in Warframe?

[Althaline]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

It could theoretically be said to be inspired by games like Elite Dangerous or FTL, but it's not some transparent ripoff and seems to be DE's own creation first and foremost

Honestly, when I first saw the gameplay the first similarity I thought of was Everspace. The fact that we can liken it to so many other games is a good indicator that it's its own beast.

 

6 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

we all love Archwing right?

The issue with Archwing was always that it was so disconnected from the rest of the game. From what DE have said, Empyrean and the Railjack are supposed to fix that and finally Make Archwing Great Again^TM.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

hace 16 minutos, Iamabearlulz dijo:

The issue with Archwing was always that it was so disconnected from the rest of the game. From what DE have said, Empyrean and the Railjack are supposed to fix that and finally Make Archwing Great Again^TM.

They also said that Plains of Eidolon were supposed to be a nightmare in night time...

I really wish they can keep up with the promises, but historycally speaking DE kind of forget about their promises.

[Kimimoto]

7 hours ago, Lazarow said:

I feel like you are wrong.

 

[LSG501]

6 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

They also said that Plains of Eidolon were supposed to be a nightmare in night time...

I really wish they can keep up with the promises, but historycally speaking DE kind of forget about their promises.

They also said that Orb Vallis was supposed to fix the issues we had with PoE.... most of them are still there. 

The issue seems to be that DE has a different idea of how we should play the game and putting it simply, it's not how we want to, or actually play the game a lot of the time.

[0_The_F00l]

lets see  and hope,

[Endrogue]

The way I see it is like this:

The planets are like cities or dungeons you'd find in games like Skyrim or the Outer Worlds and empyreon is all the wilderness in between. You might want to just fast travel between the locations but might also want to 'walk' there to see what u encounter, to explore, or just to grab extra loot along the way. I don't think it will be all that forgettable or dreaded. 

I don't think it will be ruined by archwing. Archwing is to empyreon what swimming is to the ships in Sea of Thieves or the grappling-hook in Worlds Adrift (RIP), it's just a flexible way of jumping from your ship to something else and back, seeing as the combat doesn't seem to have much to do with archwing, and if you ask me archwing is better than swimming or grappling. And if you're worried that jumping out of and back in archwing will be a chore, remember that 1) that ship will pick up items, you don't have to jump out to do that and 2) you have an item to teleport back to your ship.

If you want to get a bit of a feel for what empyreon is like, try a game call 'Angels Fall First'. I think it is a decent comparison. I know I'm making a lot of comparisons to other games, but it goes to show that these systems can work if done right. Tell me if I'm overlooking something

[(PSN)cardinalphoenix]

I think part of the reason more people don't engage with Conclave is due to the rewards attached. Obviously, it has to do partially with combat balancing as well, but at the risk of being controversial, Lunaro is one of the best things about Conclave. It's an actual "game," it's unique to other games' PvP. You say Lunaro being in Conclave is the problem, but where's it supposed to be? Are people just supposed to break out into Lunaro games after a mission? It's supposed to be in Conclave. The problem is, the rewards that are offered from Conclave aren't enough to encourage people to go for it. They're basically just cosmetics, and if you get to the highest rankings, you can purchase base starter Frames. If there were regular events in Conclave that offered Forma, potatoes, even Rivens, people would force themselves through it. Hell, even though plenty of Warframe players scoff at Destiny, their Crucible PvP faction at least offers bounties, XP and PvE usable rewards. There's plenty of things Conclave could offer as purchasable reward sources to get people in there more.

As for Archwing, I think it was a nice idea that didn't have much purpose, that much can be said. But over time, they're trying to give it more purpose. Arch Guns on the ground, flying around open world areas, and now Empyrean featuring ships to fly out of and around. Some have said that Archwing was originally meant as a part of a bigger update like Empyrean, and that seems entirely valid.

I don't know, I think DE has put a lot of little things into Warframe that may not have had much purpose or reason to be there outside of them being neat concepts. But just listening to Steve get excited about it, the Dark Sector game from almost 20 years ago was originally supposed to be Empyrean. DE has been trying to make Empyrean pretty much for as long, and I think they're passionate enough about it to make it live up to the hype.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 10 heures, DOOMPATRIOT a dit :

Sounds really interesting the thing you say Steve said, was it in an interview or a Devstream? (Really curious).

It was at Tennocon 2018, don't remember if it were during the stream or not though.

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)cardinalphoenix said:

As for Archwing, I think it was a nice idea that didn't have much purpose, that much can be said. But over time, they're trying to give it more purpose. Arch Guns on the ground, flying around open world areas, and now Empyrean featuring ships to fly out of and around. Some have said that Archwing was originally meant as a part of a bigger update like Empyrean, and that seems entirely valid.

Their mistake with Archwing was making it a game mode. What they did in Open Worlds and Atmosphere Archguns was what they should have done from the start.

The major problem at the time was: there was no way to use those weapons and Archwings in normal missions, they were completely separete, different games if you will.

If the changes to ships are what I imagine, then the gamemodes are being scrapped and gone and we will be able to go into Archwing whenever we want during the mission.

We will see.

[(PSN)cardinalphoenix]

20 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Their mistake with Archwing was making it a game mode. What they did in Open Worlds and Atmosphere Archguns was what they should have done from the start.

The major problem at the time was: there was no way to use those weapons and Archwings in normal missions, they were completely separete, different games if you will.

If the changes to ships are what I imagine, then the gamemodes are being scrapped and gone and we will be able to go into Archwing whenever we want during the mission.

We will see.

Yeah, I can agree with that. I'm not entirely sure giving us access to everything in Archwing in every mission was necessarily feasible when it first launched, but you're right, it was very isolated from the rest of the game. And even if it's really cool, a lot of people felt like it didn't have much purpose beyond just "stuff to level."

Same could be said about Railjacks probably, though we'll have to see what major purpose they're given and how grand the scale will be. I don't think the star map or associated mission nodes are going away with Empyrean, nor should it since a lot of people are used to ground-only mission combat. To me, it seems like a new space map overlaid on top of the old, giving rise to new places to visit and engagements to partake in.

Which hopefully link up to the events coming in the New War. After all, they did imply that we'd need these new ships to tackle the larger Sentient threat we'll have to deal with.