Here me out, WF dungeons and pvp dungeons

[(PSN)night_san03]

Okay, so we have exterminate missions, we have the index, we have assassinate, we have free roam. So, what if we did an amalgimation of these modes with a mix of the puzzles for the halls of ascension on lua, and put all that together to make a challenge onslaut for players to get things like vaulted relics and ayatan sculptures(basically the sortie rewards but also a lil extra to get players intrested). With a system like this, orokin challenge rooms could be added to the mix and we could have unique items like zaw and kitgun parts as rewards(also tenno amp parts too, like any of the modular items)!

After every handfull of rooms/the end of a dungeon floor, there could be a boss fight from any of the faction assassinations or even new ones entirely! It would also be a great place for our kuva litch targets as it would allow for some amazing content. Let's not forget the possibilities of the all kinds of new weapon blueprints and prime grind this could add to the game.

Not only this, but there could be pvp dungeons too, in which players can choose to work together or fight to the death with other squads they encounter in the dungeons. These dungeons would add that bit of flavor that conclave is dry to but for some reason the simulcrom and dojo deuls have access to: PvP with mods. No, not just those tacky zoom mods and blast radius ones, but also rivens and chaos builds! Conclave is also increadably limited by things like it's small reward pool and just general lack of fun. These pvp dungeons could be the new conclave, offering exciting rewards for players who think their builds are some tough stuff to go against each other and see who really comes out on top. Plus, make there be a reward for taking down another squad while leaving it unnecessary, this way players can be enticed to take on rival squads(matchmaking based on party size and CR(calc based on group stats, short for challeng rate and based on theoretical damage tanking ability + dps output)), but also know that they can just run to the next challenge. By making the PvP encounters seperate from the PvE encounters, players can have balanced and fair duels that they can choose to face off in or run away from as they see fit.

In a PvP room, an item in the center, an objective of some sort, will have to be interacted with in order to confirm engagement in the encounter. If a squad triggers the encounter, the rival squad cannot leave until they fight. However, if a squad does not wish to fight there could be a mechanic in which a consensus could be made and both parties can be on their ways.

[Rawbeard]

Quote

pvp

nope

[(XBOX)GlitchygamerKC]

Sounds fun, but conclave has those limitations for a reason.

For example: Once upon a time, a nightmare mission appeared with friendly fire.A Dreamer and a Memer embarked on this mission. The Memer possessed the power of The World, and froze their ally in time on numerous attempt.
You see where this is going.

Overall, i LOVE the idea!

[(PSN)night_san03]

On 2019-10-28 at 7:30 AM, (XB1)GlitchygamerKC said:

Sounds fun, but conclave has those limitations for a reason.

For example: Once upon a time, a nightmare mission appeared with friendly fire.A Dreamer and a Memer embarked on this mission. The Memer possessed the power of The World, and froze their ally in time on numerous attempt.
You see where this is going.

Overall, i LOVE the idea!

Yes, and that's where an algorithm that uses team composition, Mastery Rank, and other factors to find suitable match-ups. There would also be ways around being frozen, like in a pvp scenario, an enemy Limbo's "Stasis" ability would not completely freeze an enemy player, but would still make things more difficult on the afected player. Also, it's different to have friendly fire and be rewarded for taking/ignoring PvP encounters. The memer, in this scenario, would get his tin head blown off until he learned while the dreamer would simply lose hope until he gets a decent squad.

Put simply: it's a very different concept that could work if executed properly than previous atempts. It works like the simulcrome in the sense that you can use your mods for pvp. Also, nightmare missions still exist with friendly fire, they're called radiation hazard and bringing a fulmin to one of those is fun~ 😃

[Sevek7]

On 2019-10-28 at 12:54 AM, (PS4)lordofthenight03 said:

Okay, so we have exterminate missions, we have the index, we have assassinate, we have free roam. So, what if we did an amalgimation of these modes with a mix of the puzzles for the halls of ascension on lua, and put all that together to make a challenge onslaut for players to get things like vaulted relics and ayatan sculptures(basically the sortie rewards but also a lil extra to get players intrested). With a system like this, orokin challenge rooms could be added to the mix and we could have unique items like zaw and kitgun parts as rewards(also tenno amp parts too, like any of the modular items)!

After every handfull of rooms/the end of a dungeon floor, there could be a boss fight from any of the faction assassinations or even new ones entirely! It would also be a great place for our kuva litch targets as it would allow for some amazing content. Let's not forget the possibilities of the all kinds of new weapon blueprints and prime grind this could add to the game.

Not only this, but there could be pvp dungeons too, in which players can choose to work together or fight to the death with other squads they encounter in the dungeons. These dungeons would add that bit of flavor that conclave is dry to but for some reason the simulcrom and dojo deuls have access to: PvP with mods. No, not just those tacky zoom mods and blast radius ones, but also rivens and chaos builds! Conclave is also increadably limited by things like it's small reward pool and just general lack of fun. These pvp dungeons could be the new conclave, offering exciting rewards for players who think their builds are some tough stuff to go against each other and see who really comes out on top. Plus, make there be a reward for taking down another squad while leaving it unnecessary, this way players can be enticed to take on rival squads(matchmaking based on party size and CR(calc based on group stats, short for challeng rate and based on theoretical damage tanking ability + dps output)), but also know that they can just run to the next challenge. By making the PvP encounters seperate from the PvE encounters, players can have balanced and fair duels that they can choose to face off in or run away from as they see fit.

In a PvP room, an item in the center, an objective of some sort, will have to be interacted with in order to confirm engagement in the encounter. If a squad triggers the encounter, the rival squad cannot leave until they fight. However, if a squad does not wish to fight there could be a mechanic in which a consensus could be made and both parties can be on their ways.

Sounds interesting! I would definitely try it out, and it might breathe new life into the game for the veterans who feel like they have nothing to do. PvP is desperately needed in warframe since the natural player progression ends at PvP for veterans of all online games, if there's no worthwhile PvP then those veterans instead just end up complaining about "content drought." (This sounds a bit familiar!) 

 

On 2019-10-28 at 1:08 AM, Rawbeard said:

nope

Good thing the game can have both PvE and PvP! Unless you're suggesting that there shouldn't exist PvP? Please don't be another of those people who insist "It's not enough that I should get what I want, I also demand that others don't get what they want!" That is obviously childish, so I expect that's not what you're implying here 🙂

 

[Rawbeard]

4 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

there shouldn't exist PvP

exactly.

[Sevek7]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

exactly.

Ah, well then I'm disappointed. I hope that you will reconsider your position, since a healthy PvP community is good for the game - even pure PvE players benefit from the existence of popular PvP. If you can't see that, then perhaps you'll understand that warframe can cater to multiple audiences, and one audience insisting that the other should be neglected is obviously childish. If you can't understand that, well, then we really don't have much to talk about, since an intelligent conversation will likely be impossible. 

[Excaulibar]

9 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Sounds interesting! I would definitely try it out, and it might breathe new life into the game for the veterans who feel like they have nothing to do. PvP is desperately needed in warframe since the natural player progression ends at PvP for veterans of all online games, if there's no worthwhile PvP then those veterans instead just end up complaining about "content drought." (This sounds a bit familiar!) 

 

Good thing the game can have both PvE and PvP! Unless you're suggesting that there shouldn't exist PvP? Please don't be another of those people who insist "It's not enough that I should get what I want, I also demand that others don't get what they want!" That is obviously childish, so I expect that's not what you're implying here 🙂

 

I'm pretty sure what they are saying is to make the PvP better and much more enjoyable. 

[Uhkretor]

10 hours ago, (PS4)lordofthenight03 said:

that's where an algorithm that uses team composition, Mastery Rank, and other factors to find suitable match-ups.

and this is where it fails, because there's no algorithm that can stop trolls forcing themselves onto those that want to have nothing to do with them.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Uhkretor

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, Excaulibar said:

I'm pretty sure what they are saying is to make the PvP better and much more enjoyable. 

That's what I was hoping too, but if you read their reply you can see that it was not the case 😞 

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

and this is where it fails, because there's no algorithm that can stop trolls forcing themselves onto those that want to have nothing to do with them.

Good point, but what if there was an algorithm that could do that? What if we implemented something that kept track of every players' wins and win/loss ratio (and maybe other variables like k/d), and using those variables placed them in various "ranks." Then we could have matchmaking only put players with others of the same rank. 

Obviously, trolls could get around this in two ways:

1) They could purposefully lose matches to keep their rank down, and then get easy wins. I don't think this is realistic because they have to pay for their wins by first incurring losses, which is a level of dedication that trolls usually don't go for. We could also build the algorithm so that it's easier to go up in ranks than it is to go down, so that on average a troll would need to purposefully lose 5 matches in order to get just a single easy win match. (That's just an example, the actual numbers could be worked on later)

2) They could make a new account and join the bottom rank. I think locking the PvP system until players have finished some quests, or have reached a certain MR, would solve this. Again, some trolls may be dedicated enough to do all those quests and level enough weapons in a brand new account. But, all they get is a few easy wins until they rank up, at which point they have to either make another brand new account, or employ method 1). 

So, I think a matchmaking system can be made that will prevent this type of abuse, at least in the vast majority of cases! 

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

45 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

That's what I was hoping too, but if you read their reply you can see that it was not the case 😞 

I hate to say this, but until PVP is as profitable as PVE has been, the future for it is as bleak as one can imagine. Any future where an unplayed mode gets a random update is as likely as Konzu himself becoming an early lunch for a ghoul pack.

[Sevek7]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

I hate to say this, but until PVP is as profitable as PVE has been, the future for it is as bleak as one can imagine. Any future where an unplayed mode gets a random update is as likely as Konzu himself becoming an early lunch for a ghoul pack.

*Pours Grokdrul all over Konzu and pushes him out of the Cetus gate*

Yeah you're right, PvP has little audience in warframe and we shouldn't expect the developers to focus large resources on the smaller audiences (although they did spend resources on Shawzin / frame fighter / other memes). It's a shame because PvP in online games is typically the final state for players who have completed all the PvE content. So we'll have to get used to the fact that veterans will either leave the game entirely, or will stick around and complain daily about "content drought." 

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Good point, but what if there was an algorithm that could do that?

There isn't going to be one because, despite the fact that I'm not taking PvP in consideration because its useless in a PvE game like Warframe, even if someone attempts at making an algorithm there will always be those cases that won't be covered by it.

 

... Dude, its not a bad idea, but you should probably think about it a bit more.

[Rawbeard]

7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

since a healthy PvP community is good for the game

[Sevek7]

7 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

There isn't going to be one because, despite the fact that I'm not taking PvP in consideration because its useless in a PvE game like Warframe, even if someone attempts at making an algorithm there will always be those cases that won't be covered by it.

 

... Dude, its not a bad idea, but you should probably think about it a bit more.

You're right, I came up with that matchmaking system in 5 minutes, I'm sure we could come up with something better 🙂 

PvP is useless in a primarily PvE game? You state that like it's a self-evident fact. I'm going to need a bit more evidence than that before I give up on warframe PvP entirely 😉 

[Sevek7]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

Nice meme 🙂 

[Uhkretor]

17 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

PvP is useless in a primarily PvE game? You state that like it's a self-evident fact. I'm going to need a bit more evidence than that before I give up on warframe PvP entirely 😉 

... I think you're misunderstanding something here... Warframe isn't a "primarily PvE game". Its a "PvE game". PvP is there because its fashion to have PvP in a PvE game.

You can choose to give up on it or not, despite whatever evidence you may or may not see and you may or may not accept (I'm not even going to bother myself to collect proof for someone that is so interested in getting proof, then he/she should just get it instead of asking others to do it for them).

 

However:

7 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

you should probably think about it a bit more.

... on the whole thing. Its like I said, its not a bad idea.

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

.. I think you're misunderstanding something here... Warframe isn't a "primarily PvE game". Its a "PvE game". PvP is there because its fashion to have PvP in a PvE game.

You might be correct. It's clear that warframe was intended to be a cooperative (PvE) game from the start, that much is obvious. But, as games grow, they branch out, and try new things to cater to multiple audiences. So sure, if we take the narrow view that every game belongs in either the PvE basket or the PvP basket with absolutely no overlap then warframe belongs squarely in the PvE basket. But what if it's not that simple? What if games can have both successful PvE and successful PvP? Warframe could dip its toes in both baskets, getting both kinds of players - thus broadening its appeal. In a large game there will always be parts that vibe with some players and not with others, so if a game wants to remain relevant for a long time they must try different things to get that broader appeal.

Let's consider an analogy: We could say the same thing about fishing - warframe was obviously not intended as a fishing game from the beginning, but now it has fishing! And mining, and exploring (semi) open worlds, and pet-breeding, music-making, skateboarding, space battling, the list goes on and on! Why is it okay to branch into those areas to attract more players, but not okay to branch into PvP? There are several things in that list that I don't enjoy, but it's okay because I understand that it's not for me. It's for someone else who does like that. 

Let's try to apply that same logic to PvP. Let's say that I'm a big PvE fan but don't ever want to PvP. Then I will say once again: Okay, I don't like the PvP, but I understand it's not for me. It's for someone else who does like that. Can you explain to me why you think the logic doesn't work this way? Notice they even lock progression (weapons, warframes, mastery rank) behind all those other things (pets, k-drives, mining, fishing, etc...) but they don't lock any progression behind PvP. I'm sorry but you're going to have to do a lot better to convince me that warframe shouldn't have PvP than by just saying "It's a PvE game." 

I would suggest that if warframe didn't have this great track record of constantly branching out and trying new things (that don't always succeed, but that's part of trying new things!) then it's likely the game wouldn't even be around today. So, a mentality of "Don't cater to new audiences if you already have an audience" is, I would suggest, not a good one.