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(PS4)LoisGordils

Grendel: A lackluster passive and a terrible third skill

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Disclaimer: Yes, I am aware that I haven't actually played Grendel. However, enough has been shown in order for me to provide this feedback. 

DE allowed some content creators (I'm assuming there were several, yet I only saw one) to test him prior to release. He is quite survivable, yet has two major issues: his passive and his third skill.

1. Passive: The more enemies he ingests, the higher the armor value.

The issue: The passive only works on enemies that have been eaten by Grendel. The only way to ingest them is with the use of his first skill. The problem? It's not a passive, it's an aspect of his first ability. Passives cannot solely be triggered by abilities. They have to be able to be triggered through other means. Even with Octavia, her passive can be triggered with the use of Transference.

My suggestions: Move the armor bonus per ingested foe perk to his first skill (since it already is one). Next, his passive could be that, Grendel, being a glutton, can pick up resources and ammo in order to gain health, shields and/or energy. Note, the player still gets the benefits of the drops, they simply will give Grendel some health, shields and/or energy. Additionally, when Grendel dodges, enemies he makes contact with are knocked over because of his bodyweight. 

2. Regurgitate: Hurl a vile covered enemy as a toxic projectile.

The issue: An ability that has no use without having first used the first skill. Again, it's not synergy, it's dependence. Again, like his passive, Regurgitate is an aspect of his first. To add insult to injury, Feast can already throw up enemies, dealing Toxin damage. Regurgitate simply does this with higher projectile speed. Groundbreaking. This is EXACTLY why Wisp's original third skill was changed. It had NO use without using Reservoirs first.

My suggestions: Regurgitate is a tap/hold. Tap causes Grendel to vomit a stream of stomach fluids that deals Corrosive and Toxic damage in a cone and is a channeled skill. Should Grendel have enemies ingested, these will ejected out of his mouth by holding the ability key.

The video

 

Edited by (PS4)LoisGordils
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22 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

The issue: The passive only works on enemies that have been eaten by Grendel. The only way to ingest them is with the use of his first skill. The problem? It's not a passive, it's an aspect of his first ability. Passives cannot be solely triggered by abilities. They have to be able to be triggered through other means. Even with Octavia, her passive can be triggered with the use of Transference.

Not true, but I see your point.

Atlas's rubble is not obtainable without use of at least one of his abilities, and needs at least 2 of them in order to obtain it efficiently. That's also true for Nidus stacks, requiring abilities.

I think what they're doing is transitioning the terminology to those types of "passives" towards being a secondary resource that is built through some abilities and consumed by others, but they are still "stored" passively without needing to maintain a toggle.

Edit: Limbo also used to need an ability to access his passive, but they reworked it to be truly passive through his dodge.

Edited by (PS4)Ozymandias-13-
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9 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Atlas's

His passive is immunity to knockdowns while on the ground. Rubbles are a resource tied to his abilities.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Nidus

His passive is constant health regen. His mutation stacks, like Atlas' Rubbles, are resources tied to his skills

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I think what they're doing is transitioning the terminology to those types of "passives" towards being a secondary resource that is built through some abilities and consumed by others, but they are still "stored" passively without needing to maintain a toggle.

The thing is, Grendel's "passive" drains energy. Passives NEVER drain energy. That's why they are passives

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

His passive is constant health regen. His mutation stacks, like Atlas' Rubbles, are resources tied to his skills

A small correction:
Nidus' passive is the mutation meter and being unkillable for a while after taking lethal damage (while having enough stacks). His HP regen is a stat (like HP, shield, armor, etc.)

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

His passive is immunity to knockdowns while on the ground. Rubbles are a resource tied to his abilities.

His passive is constant health regen. His mutation stacks, like Atlas' Rubbles, are resources tied to his skills

Ask DE if they agree with either of those statements, because the game disagrees with you. They are the ones that have officially designated them as passives. 

1 minute ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

The thing is, Grendel's "passive" drains energy. Passives NEVER drain energy. That's why they are passives

This one I can agree with you. Remove energy drain *BAM* falls in line with other frames. Honestly they could make the armor slowly decline as he "digests" them hehe. Then it would be identical to Atlas in implementation.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Honestly they could make the armor slowly decline as he "digests" them hehe.

This is neat-o 🙂

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Grendels 3 needs to do A LOT of damage in a very good range in order to justify its existence.

Also his 2 does insta kill. Awesome.

 

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

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2 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

His passive is constant health regen. His mutation stacks, like Atlas' Rubbles, are resources tied to his skills

Heath regen isn’t part of Nidus’s passive. It’s just a thing he has.

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To be perfectly honest, Grendel feels like a frame that's going to be fun just to roll around with...but, otherwise, not used for much else. His roll looks fun as hell.

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While I personally think it's fine for abilities to depend on 1 abilities, provided there's appropriate Energy cost factoring and whatnot, I fully agree that Grendel's proposed passive is basically just an added effect to his 1. The former is because every frame will always have their 1, so they'll always be able to use it, but the latter is because passives are supposed to cover a frame's playstyle across their abilities: passives can be ability-dependent, but so long as they depend on multiple abilities, that's fine, and an elegant way of describing a mechanic that a frame's abilities play into. If a mechanic plays into only one ability, that's not really a frame passive, that's just a bonus effect.

If there is one problem with inter-ability dependence right now, though, it's that it compounds the potential issues with those abilities: Grendel's 1 in particular looks like it's going to suffer heavily against ability immunity/nullification, which means that in missions with Corpus in them, he might just end up being limited to rolling around in his 4 (and he won't even be tanky, as his armor bonus requires him to eat people). This is something that can only truly be fixed by dealing with ability immunity itself, but it also means that releasing Grendel in the game's current state is likely to give him some very inconsistent gameplay, depending on faction.

Oh, and side note, but I feel Grendel's 1 should probably be his passive, where moving into an enemy below a certain health threshold automatically eats them, and builds up some counter. That way, he could then have more ability slots to do stuff with what he's eaten, like give himself durability, buff teammates, spit out enemies, etc., and perhaps gain some more Oni-like abilities in the process. Seeing how his 4 is supposed to have its own eating effect, it would also combine the two neatly.

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16 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grendels 3 needs to do A LOT of damage in a very good range in order to justify its existence.

Also his 2 does insta kill. Awesome.

 

Bet you never thought of simply launching your victins into holes in maps that instantly kills them ? Or using them to CC a group of mobs that just came from around the corner, so they don't spread out?

Maybe that's just me but sounds like something people might use.

Also his 2 insta-kills mobs one by one. Still kinda broken but I'm not going to believe someone will be running around the map only pressing 1&2 all the time.

On the other hand, spin2win exist so I might be wrong.

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hace 16 horas, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:

Grendels 3 needs to do A LOT of damage in a very good range in order to justify its existence.

Also his 2 does insta kill. Awesome.

 

His 2 does not instakill, specially in higher levels, confirmed byt hose who tested him with DE's permission. Works more like a cc ability.

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my point of view is that "passive" is just whatever the effect the devs think that warframe should have, either for the sake of theme or game flow, without needing to justify it as a skill (4 skill and one energy bar ain't enough for them, obviously). So the "drain energy" technically make it feel too much like a skill i guess

i don't like grendel from what i know about him so far so i don't invest enough in him to actually make any meaningful feedback, but i would say the passive as we said here clearly make his ... err .. effects neither satisfy the technical box he should fit in, nor does it really enhance his theme. In my opinion the later alone is enough to have a reconsider from the devs, so yeah, completely agree with u

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4 hours ago, Trickster_God_Loki said:

Bet you never thought of simply launching your victins into holes in maps that instantly kills them ? Or using them to CC a group of mobs that just came from around the corner, so they don't spread out?

 

Pretty sure throwing them over a cliff just spawns them back on top.

 

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13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Pretty sure throwing them over a cliff just spawns them back on top.

 

There are spots in certain tiles that a ragdolled enemy won't stand up in. After a while the game just kills them instead.

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Now this topic shows some real analysis. Let's hope he gets adjusted before the console release. Still waiting on those Gauss buffs that PC got.

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