This could be a way of make ash playable.

[Alseiker]

Here ya go.

Shuriken: mostly same, but it can marks the enemies they hit (like when you have 4 active and pass your mouse over the enemies).

Smokescreen: same ability.

Teleport (Now BladeStorm) : If are enemies marked in the map, it become active. When you press it, you teleport and kill every enemy like always (but only the marked one's).

Blade Storm (Now Exalted Dagger) :  you can use another weapon equipped and still use covert lethality in this dagger, when you kill x enemies with this you get buff with extra dmg in your primary and secondary.

You are not going to oneshot a entire room (because Saryn and nuke frames exists), but this way can give you a more rewarding way of playing and doesn't categorize Ash as some kind of nukeframe.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Neoriek

[Circle_of_Psi]

Interesting small tweak, I do have my own ideas on how to change him, but it will be a massive rework, not just a power swtiching

[Tyreaus]

May just be me, but I'm quite "eh" about the exalted dagger concept. Besides the fact they likely wouldn't allow CL on it as they're moving it to the Parazon, is there something "more" it could do that isn't just numeric? Peacemakers has auto-aim, Artemis Bow has a huge shotgun of arrows, Iron Staff has giant range, Exalted Blade has the energy waves, Hysteria has invulnerability.... Just adding a damage multiplier feels kind of lame.

[Alseiker]

Quote

Just adding a damage multiplier feels kind of lame.

The problem i face with giving him something else is that the majority of stuff i thought wouldn't fit his thematic, things like invulnerability seems almost broken in this kit, and Ash has invisibility in his smokescreen so having the same ability in two places feels kind of off. The good part of buffing primary and secondary dmg is that it rewards you for using those weapons and don't gives you the illusion of spam shuriken and blade storm is the way to go (maybe damage falloff would make it viable too).

Quote

May just be me, but I'm quite "eh" about the exalted dagger concept.

The exalted Dagger is more a workaround to make him don't lose his niche as assassin and make him viable to play with others melee weapons, but i guess that you could be right in that part.

Quote

Besides the fact they likely wouldn't allow CL on it as they're moving it to the Parazon

I Didn't know that.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Ash hasn't not been playable for quite a while now...

35 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

Shuriken: mostly same, but it can marks the enemies they hit (like when you have 4 active and pass your mouse over the enemies).

Cool idea as people who lean on shuriken do so for the augment as it is. Nice QoL.

38 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

Teleport (Now BladeStorm) : If are enemies marked in the map, it become active. When you press it, you teleport and kill every enemy like always (but only the marked one's).

No... Just no.

This is basically a slick way of saying you don't like Teleport and so finding a way to adjust it to your flavor.... Others like it as-is just fine. 

37 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

Blade Storm (Now Exalted Dagger) :  you can use another weapon equipped and still use covert lethality in this dagger, when you kill x enemies with this you get buff with extra dmg in your primary and secondary.

That's a no go for a few reasons.

1. CL is going away from daggers afaik.

2. The discussion of Ash and exalted weapons is an already thoroughly beaten dead horse. IIRC... it was between that idea, dance dance revolution BS, and clones with Clones winning.

At this point, if you don't like Ash as-is, you'd really be better off campaigning for a new melee oriented frame using exalted daggers.

 

[kapn655321]

44 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

Shuriken: mostly same, but it can marks the enemies they hit (like when you have 4 active and pass your mouse over the enemies).

 I've had a similar idea.

If you could hold to charge, while marking targets. Greater damage for charge.
Additional 4 energy cost per marked target like Blade Storm, reduced cost to 2 while in Smokescreen.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

CL is going away from daggers afaik.

That was reconsidered. Covert Lethality will still exist, but have a different function.

[Aldain]

Just give Ash a small cone for targeting with Bladestorm, like the smallest size that Mesa's can get.

Seriously it is just the targeting being painfully slow/obnoxious waving of the mouse that is the problem, everything else at least works.

[---Occam---]

23 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Besides the fact they likely wouldn't allow CL on it as they're moving it to the Parazon

Last Prime Time, Megan and Rebecca said that due to feedback from the community they are keeping Covert Lethality for daggers. 

[maddragonmaster]

i would suggest an exalted parazon. or a exalted weapon that is a mix of parazon and dual daggers. maybe having a special ability of generating a smoke screen upon stealth kill.

[Alseiker]

Quote

This is basically a slick way of saying you don't like Teleport and so finding a way to adjust it to your flavor.... Others like it as-is just fine.

Well, is literally a ripoff of Loki's Switch Teleport without the Zoom animation and with a finisher attached using a augment, that is only useful when you go augment+full efficiency and to get into the Blade storm animation, but i get your point.

[Olphalarepth]

Am I the only Ash main who thinks he is perfectly fine?

The only issue I have with him is the teleport augment sometimes not working when the enemy is on irregular ground (hills, too close to an object).

[(XBOX)Rylor Threev]

1 hour ago, Neoriek said:

Teleport (Now BladeStorm) : If are enemies marked in the map, it become active. When you press it, you teleport and kill every enemy like always (but only the marked one's).

Blade Storm (Now Exalted Dagger) :  you can use another weapon equipped and still use covert lethality in this dagger, when you kill x enemies with this you get buff with extra dmg in your primary and secondary.

Had a similar idea when I was discussing ash "nerf" with friends, my idea was basically turn his 4th into an exalted dagger but keep the Blade Storm, instead of instantly jumping to another target, ash would remain in the air like if he was under rhinos stomp effect for a while (affected by duration mods) and you would need to aim and select your new target, each target consumes energy and/or the exalted dagger consumes energy per second. Something like that

[Autongnosis]

I wouldn't really bring out another exalted weapon into ash, bladestorm works fine enough as is. 

If anything, Ash could really use more integration of marking into his kit. Some ideas i had a while ago:

1) shuriken marks the target if unmarked when 4 is active OR shuriken fires 2 shurikens plus one at each marked target

2) smoke screen blinds enemies in the stagger AoE if they are marked / marks enemies in the aoe if they're not marked when 4 is active

3) teleport retains functionality even when 4 is active, and the "join in" function gets moved to hold 4. Teleport kills on marked enemies add 1s to smokescreen up to a cap. 

4) targeting reticle becomes a small cone affected by power range. Hold 4 now allows you to join in. Any enemy within bladestorm radius that is currently bleeding is marked at reduced energy cost. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Autongnosis

[Alseiker]

Quote

Had a similar idea when I was discussing ash "nerf" with friends, my idea was basically turn his 4th into an exalted dagger but keep the Blade Storm, instead of instantly jumping to another target, ash would remain in the air like if he was under rhinos stomp effect for a while (affected by duration mods) and you would need to aim and select your new target, each target consumes energy and/or the exalted dagger consumes energy per second. Something like that

I really like the idea, but the problem is that is too slow paced to make fully use in a full squad enviroment (except solo play). The thing i had in my mind when i was thinking in this was a shifting of his kit without needing to design too much new ideas (because coding a entire new mechanic isn't easier) and make his kit faster without making him meta for clearning rooms.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

47 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

The problem i face with giving him something else is that the majority of stuff i thought wouldn't fit his thematic, things like invulnerability seems almost broken in this kit, and Ash has invisibility in his smokescreen so having the same ability in two places feels kind of off. The good part of buffing primary and secondary dmg is that it rewards you for using those weapons and don't gives you the illusion of spam shuriken and blade storm is the way to go (maybe damage falloff would make it viable too).

The exalted Dagger is more a workaround to make him don't lose his niche as assassin and make him viable to play with others melee weapons, but i guess that you could be right in that part.

I Didn't know that.

They stated that they are not moving CL to the Parazon, but they are completely changing covert lethality. I forgot the changes, but I know one of its two functions is 16(?)% damage per combo multiplier. I think the other one is 100% more damage on finishers, basically what fatal teleport does if you don't have a dagger equipped. I really like your idea of his abilities marking enemies, and I know a clanmate if mine would love it too. I'm not sure about the exalted dagger. I'm even less sure seeing how daggers are probably going to be even more useless now. Maybe an exalted Chakram that hits enemies and bounces back to you. DE could make it really cinematic, especially given how Bladestorm with Teleport is already amazingly cinematic. I would change your Bladestorm to a "press once to summon shadow clones to attack enemies (as it is right now), press again to join in in the onslaught." I feel that would work much better. Teleport is really cool, but it isn't practical for Warframe's gameplay style of kill kill kill (Kyle reference for anyone who gets it.)

But I think your tweaks are ON POINT. Really amazing tbh.

Edited October 29, 2019 by (NSW)FlameDivinity

[Alseiker]

Quote

"press once to summon shadow clones to attack enemies (as it is right now), press again to join in in the onslaught."

Actually, i was thinking the same since i forgot about the times where you wouldn't like to go into the enemy or finishing a enemy flying above a fall. 

[(XBOX)Rylor Threev]

33 minutes ago, Neoriek said:

I really like the idea, but the problem is that is too slow paced to make fully use in a full squad enviroment (except solo play). The thing i had in my mind when i was thinking in this was a shifting of his kit without needing to design too much new ideas (because coding a entire new mechanic isn't easier) and make his kit faster without making him meta for clearning rooms.

I know, my idea was to give him the same treatment as Mesa's 4th. Instead of the current press 4, have a seizure, then press 4 again, you would know what you're doing, the enemy (or at least a general direction)

[KennBone]

As a Ash main, i love how it works now dont touch something inst broken

[mraz641]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Ash hasn't not been playable for quite a while now...

Cool idea as people who lean on shuriken do so for the augment as it is. Nice QoL.

No... Just no.

This is basically a slick way of saying you don't like Teleport and so finding a way to adjust it to your flavor.... Others like it as-is just fine. 

That's a no go for a few reasons.

1. CL is going away from daggers afaik.

2. The discussion of Ash and exalted weapons is an already thoroughly beaten dead horse. IIRC... it was between that idea, dance dance revolution BS, and clones with Clones winning.

At this point, if you don't like Ash as-is, you'd really be better off campaigning for a new melee oriented frame using exalted daggers.

 

i think his ability kit is great, he doesnt need more power because he deals insane amounts of dmg already with his passive and everything. he doesnt need rework now or in any forseable future. thats just my 2cents dont kill me pls. Only people who want him to be nuking everyone with a press of a button says he needs rework. he is engaging and fun to play.

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, mraz641 said:

i think his ability kit is great, he doesnt need more power because he deals insane amounts of dmg already with his passive and everything. he doesnt need rework now or in any forseable future. thats just my 2cents dont kill me pls. Only people who want him to be nuking everyone with a press of a button says he needs rework. he is engaging and fun to play.

You are all good with me Tenno.

FWIW, I don't think the OP is trying to campaign for a nuke frame insomuch as he is trying to make Ash more fun to play in his opinion and using a measure of hyperbole to get eyes to do so.

The OP has every right to their opinion and so do you. Hopefully, I haven't left anyone with the impression that I am abusing them merely for having one.😁

 

 

[Fenr3r]

The majority of what I would change for ash would be centered around supporting his 4, having minimal change to his kit. Having his other abilities help mark enemies would speed up his game play. Similarly having shuriken, smokescreen, and teleport mark enemies while his 4 is toggled. Further boosting the mark cost reduction while invisible. Changing his passive to a health regen on slash procs, as it is a bit too similar to saryn's for my taste. Potentially having teleport able to target terrain if no enemies or objects are around. Finally, giving him the ability to use his hidden blades as melee weapons if none is equipped, akin to Garuda's claws.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Ash is already playable.  Sadly with this melee rework we'll see where that ends up being, as ash's augment for his 4 is based on the old combo multiplier.  

[seventhwalker]

Ash skill's basic mechanics are fine for me, use him a lot, and would only buff them up in terms of numbers and:

 

1. Aside from Shuriken getting higher damage on more str,  allow it to throw multiple stars per shot. Needing the

augment to strip armor makes it mandatory to carry it around, perhaps it could be baked-in even at slightly lessened numbers.

 

2. Right now Smokescreen is a short duration Invisibility with an augment that can stealth nearby allies. 

Baking-in the current augment doesn't seem to be OP if its still capped at 8s max regardless of mods. Perhaps to have a small

diversity in the usual Str-based Ash build, a new pilfer augment to increase drop rates to enemies blinded could lead to

+range +duration farming Ash variant.

 

3. Fatal Teleport combo on special enemies / bosses being non-effective: have a secondary effect for them like extreme slowed movement/

attack speeds.

 

4. Echoing what others said, make Bladestorm targeting into a cone-ish area and make the higher lvls of BS allow several more clones attack

simultaneously on different targets, making it much more streamlined. Even with attack speed mods, after tagging 10+ enemies, it would

still take a long time to dispatch of them because of the current clone limit.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by seventhwalker

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

this is just an excuse to slip CL onto something. CL is busted and accept that it is leaving.