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TR-EightR

Baruuk - Possible winner and loser of Melee phase 2?

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Lets take a quick look at how the upcoming mainline might impact Baruuk (my favourite boi)

First ability - This ability after the mainline update will become an already even more dead button than it currently is! Why is that? Well the new 100% blocking from melee is essentially a better version of this ability. Yes it can achieve greater range (up to 360) and erodes restraint, but you can't attack just like regular blocking and it costs energy. It is also a channeling cost making it even worse... you can't benefit from zenurik dash while this is active. Essentially you never want to push 1 because his 2 and 3 are much better at eroding restraint with minimal impact on your rotation. My rating after the mainline -2/10 worst ability in the game

Second ability - Remains relatively the same being mostly a niche ability (most useful for mobile defense, defense, or sleep solo builds) or as one of your main energy dumps for restraint erosion. With maybe very minimal negative or beneficial impacts from the mainline due to the weapon buffs. My rating after the mainline 3 or 4/10

Third ability - Same treatment as the second ability little to no impacts due to this upcoming mainline (unless DE has withheld some tweaks for Baruuk *fingers crossed*). In general though this ability can at times be considered Baruuk's most defining ability. Providing great dmg reduction, disarm, great restraint erosion, and annoyingly jumps to allies. My rating after the mainline 7/10

Fourth ability - Now this one stands to gain the most from this mainline update! Many may have missed it, but I believe Reb responded to a question in the latest prime time near the end, if Excalibur's exalted blade would benefit from the combo counter and she said yes. With that it's safe to assume that Baruuk will also get this treatment! This means that yes combo counters lose the dmg scaling, but I hope we could look forward to the use of blood rush and weeping wounds (This might be a stretch). Next, we saw a nice buff to condition overload meaning even with low status chance we can easily put 3 status procs on enemies and gain benefits (I can't recall if the wind waves benefit from condition overload but I'm assuming they do). Finally, it was stated in the dev workshop on the melee update that exalted weapons will be getting the stat buffs as well!!!! Meaning if we can see the introduction of IPS spread dmg, increased attack speed, increased status chance, and increased crit dmg we could be in a very powerful position (even just 2 of those buffs would be insane)! My rating after the mainline 9/10 (very dependent though)

 

Overall, Baruuk stands to gain a lot when it comes to his 4th ability and might even be the winner in this mainline update (minus ember and vauban). On the other hand, if we don't see many changes to his 4th his 1st ability just becomes a dead button and he takes (IMO) the crown for the new worst warframe in need of a dire update! I'd love to hear the communities thoughts as well!

Edited by TR-EightR
Correction and clarification
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The only benefit Serene Storm is getting from Phase 2 is the massive damage increase. And I just hope it’s enough to allow it to perform at the same level as the other exalteds are now. Otherwise it’ll just continue on holding Revenant back.

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tbh I've never had an issue with Serene Storm damage. Then again I haven't done more than a few hours in 1 run with him. Even into Arby's a 1-3 forma build on Serene Storm can keep up for about an hour in just damage with just standard melee waves, not including finishers.

I think people tend to forget that other than maybe Gauss in highly specific situations, Baruuk has the highest ehp in the game regardless of damage type. So his damage output has to be balanced against that. But yeah a somewhat decent buff to it wouldn't hurt either I don't disagree with that much.

Edited by AntiMomentum
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Did they really state that the acolyte mods are now usable for exalted weapons? Why i believe it would make sense, at the same time DE hasn't enabled thme for years and I haven't heard them even talking about the subject.

Furthermore Exalted Blade already benefits from the combo counter. Its just that the energy waves, same as Baruuk, don't cause the combo counter to go up, only direct hits with the weapon increase it (and the Excal Slash Dash Augment, which is highly recommended).

I can see energy waves stacking the combo counter with the energy waves for both, since otherwise those weapons just don't work with the heavy attack system but that doesn't even remotely imply blood rush starting to be available for them.

I don't see Barruks exalted to ever be useful in its current state. Its literally worse than a well built melee, especially with a riven and is just insanely lackluster. The constant knocking around is detrimental to your damage and the low status chance just causes you to miss both the ability to forgo or strip armor with status effects. It jsut completely fails against higher levle armored enemies and while the baseline buff will benefit it mroe than other weapons, since it could never really get the combo counter going I have my doubts that being enoguh to push it even past a strong normal melee weapon because its jsut so much worse right now.

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11 minutes ago, AntiMomentum said:

tbh I've never had an issue with Serene Storm damage. Then again I haven't done more than a few hours in 1 run with him. Even into Arby's a 1-3 forma build on Serene Storm can keep up for about an hour in just damage with just standard melee waves, not including finishers.

It does fall off, but mostly only against huge armor totals, for most content it is pretty powerful.

Overall the issue I have with it isn't quite the damage, but rather that it just feels a bit too slow without a ton of attack speed or too weak without a ton of damage mods.

If it just had a buff to one of the two's base stats players could either make up for the lower damage with fast Shattering Impact or make up for the lower attack speed with just big base numbers.

My personal idea was giving it a natural Shattering Impact effect (though the per-hit reduction would be higher than the mod to account for the slower speed) and leaving the attack speed the way it is.

Though if they ever go through with the armor scaling readjustments that Steve mentioned this all may wind up moot.

Edited by Aldain
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10 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Furthermore Exalted Blade already benefits from the combo counter. Its just that the energy waves, same as Baruuk, don't cause the combo counter to go up, only direct hits with the weapon increase it (and the Excal Slash Dash Augment, which is highly recommended).

I don't see Barruks exalted to ever be useful in its current state. Its literally worse than a well built melee, especially with a riven and is just insanely lackluster. The constant knocking around is detrimental to your damage and the low status chance just causes you to miss both the ability to forgo or strip armor with status effects. It jsut completely fails against higher levle armored enemies and while the baseline buff will benefit it mroe than other weapons, since it could never really get the combo counter going I have my doubts that being enoguh to push it even past a strong normal melee weapon because its jsut so much worse right now.

"Futhermore" point: I think the combo counter should just build with the waves. That's probably the only buff that's arguably needed. Even a set cap combo amount per wave would do it.

"I don't see" point: It's still cc regardless of armor or level. Even has a multiplier for true damage. Used with his Lull and enemy radar of all things it happens to keep most defense objectives clear for a while even without finishers. You just need to know where the enemies are coming from when used with Lull.

Edited by AntiMomentum
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vor 1 Minute schrieb AntiMomentum:

"Futhermore" point: I think the combo counter should just build with the waves. That's probably the only buff that's arguably needed. 

"I don't see" point: It's still cc regardless of armor or level. Even has a multiplier for true damage. Used with his Lull and enemy radar of all things it happens to keep most defense objectives clear for a while even without finishers. You just need to know where the enemies are coming from when used with Lull.

Agreed. They have been overly careful about Exalted Weapons both with the combo counter itneraction and the acolyte mods and it just wasn't necessary  Have to see though how useful it is, if the waves now build the counter, given that the combo counter will only benefit heavy attacks once the patch hits and we don't know how good those are.

I usually associate weapons with killign stuff, so calling it useless is over generalizing. The damage of the weapon is pretty bad though. Sure it kills unarmored stuff for days, like every melee in the game. It just falls off earlier than normal melees and is in terms of effective damage jsut compeltely outclassed due to a lack of the combo counter due to a lack of status procs, especially slash and given that melee crit mods kinda suck if can't use Blood Rush.
You can bully some enemies with the CC it has but generally it would probably be more efficient kill speed wise to just not use it, keep your EHP up and just get a good long range melee to kill enemies and that is a pretty bad state to be in for an exalted weapon since they have to pay for your normal weapon and an ultimate ability another frame would have in its place.

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well i mean his first ability can be modded to have 360 degrees of immunity, so there's that, at least.

I'd be curious to see if blocking a bombard rocket in melee phase 2 will also negate the explosion

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would be nice if enemies killed that were disarmed by his 3 would give you the knife back. then at least I wouldn't have to kill range and his 2 just to keep a decent DR. If that alone was changed he'd be in a lot better place

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2 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

tbh I've never had an issue with Serene Storm damage. Then again I haven't done more than a few hours in 1 run with him. Even into Arby's a 1-3 forma build on Serene Storm can keep up for about an hour in just damage with just standard melee waves, not including finishers.

I think people tend to forget that other than maybe Gauss in highly specific situations, Baruuk has the highest ehp in the game regardless of damage type. So his damage output has to be balanced against that. But yeah a somewhat decent buff to it wouldn't hurt either I don't disagree with that much.

Wukong is far more unkillable than Baruuk and deals more than 3x the damage he does. Being good at one thing does not justify being terrible at other things.

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2 hours ago, TR-EightR said:

and it costs energy. It is also a channeling cost making it even worse

A literal trivial issue when he has base 200 energy and Elude costs practically nothing to maintain. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

A literal trivial issue when he has base 200 energy and Elude costs practically nothing to maintain. 

I would disagree at any stage of the game energy maintenance is extremely important and especially when maintaining his 3 as the enemies start to scale higher and if you're trying to maintain restraint using 2 more often. Every bit of energy and energy source becomes extremely valuable.

Edited by TR-EightR
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His 4 has the shortest range  ( as listed in the stream) of all the exalteds, worst damage type, and no indication it will have any damage value compensation.  It is tied for worst arc size for damage blocking, and every indication will be that the 1 will conflict with the combo count effect if you let them shoot at you.

 

Since the waves don't increase the counter and the range is so incredibly minimal, he will likely remain the hardest to utilize the new heavy attacks/counter with, which is a huge potential damage loss across the board.  This is leaving aside the realistic possibility of his knock back effects being reworked in a not great way, which could easily keep him from being able to complete at all.

 

This isn't even touching the issues with the long casts on his 2/3 and the prerequisites to start using his 4 in the first place.

 

Look, I really have enjoyed Baruuk, and I hope I am wrong.  I have every intention of playing with him once the patch drops and trying to figure it out, but I strongly suspect he will be effectively DOA, then get patched to functional in a few weeks/ a bit longer.  It is a shame because he has been my general purpose frame for a few months now, and I wish I wasn't going to likely put him back on the shelf.  We will just have to see, though.

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8 hours ago, TR-EightR said:

might even be the winner

P sure Calibro and Wukong are the very very clear winners here.

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10 hours ago, TR-EightR said:

First ability - This ability after the mainline update will become an already even more dead button than it currently is! Why is that? Well the new 100% blocking from melee is essentially a better version of this ability. Yes it can achieve greater range (up to 360) and erodes restraint, but you can't attack just like regular blocking and it costs energy. It is also a channeling cost making it even worse... you can't benefit from zenurik dash while this is active. Essentially you never want to push 1 because his 2 and 3 are much better at eroding restraint with minimal impact on your rotation. My rating after the mainline -2/10 worst ability in the game

This completely ignores how Baruuk's 1 becomes significantly less popular the moment the block range is less than 360 degrees, due to the area of vulnerability it leaves behind. Melee blocking will cover an even narrower angle.

10 hours ago, TR-EightR said:

Fourth ability - Now this one stands to gain the most from this mainline update! Many may have missed it, but I believe Reb responded to a question in the latest prime time near the end, if Excalibur's exalted blade would benefit from the combo counter and she said yes. With that it's safe to assume that Baruuk will also get this treatment! This means that yes combo counters lose the dmg scaling, but I hope we could look forward to the use of blood rush and weeping wounds (This might be a stretch). Next, we saw a nice buff to condition overload meaning even with low status chance we can easily put 3 status procs on enemies and gain benefits (I can't recall if the wind waves benefit from condition overload but I'm assuming they do). Finally, it was stated in the dev workshop on the melee update that exalted weapons will be getting the stat buffs as well!!!! Meaning if we can see the introduction of IPS spread dmg, increased attack speed, increased status chance, and increased crit dmg we could be in a very powerful position (even just 2 of those buffs would be insane)! My rating after the mainline 9/10 (very dependent though)

It is worth noting that the problem with Serene Storm isn't its raw damage, but the fact that its damage is exclusively Impact, which scales horribly into higher levels. This is unlikely to change with the melee update.

10 hours ago, TR-EightR said:

Overall, Baruuk stands to gain a lot when it comes to his 4th ability and might even be the winner in this mainline update (minus ember and vauban). On the other hand, if we don't see many changes to his 4th his 1st ability just becomes a dead button and he takes (IMO) the crown for the new worst warframe in need of a dire update! I'd love to hear the communities thoughts as well!

There are a whole bunch of warframes with one or even two dead abilities who I'd say are in less dire need of an update than others: Chroma doesn't use his 1 or 4 at all, for example, but arguably still needs a rework less than the likes of Hydroid, Banshee, or Nyx (and this isn't counting Ember and Vauban, due to their imminent reworks). Thus, I think it would be a bit of an exaggeration to say Baruuk would be in the direst need of an update even if his 1 were to become useless, which I doubt for the above reasons. I can agree that he needs a rework, though, as his current kit is clunky, full of anti-synergies, and ultimately not especially contributive to his team.

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The only benefit that I can see Baruuk gains from the melee update is that the combo restructuring might allow him for more forward movement when performing specific combos.  As one of the primary annoyances for me with him is that his fantastic AoE clearing with his waves can't easily extend because he's like a turret when doing most melee combos.  They mentioned no extra touches to his melee moves like they did for Valkyr or excalibur so i'm not holding my breath.

The only thing Baruuk is being robbed wise is slam attacks now giving the lift effect.  Which was Baruuk's best cc.  Excalibur's exalted already benefits from combo counter.  It's his waves that do not build it.  Same goes for Baruuk.  If both now build that it would be cool.  But as I understand the combo counter doesn't boost damage anymore.  So.

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*has read the patch notes for The Old Blood*

Welp, Baruuks doomed.

the only thing he’s getting is the parry angle and a 0.2 increase to range.

I can only display my displeasure in the form of this gif

disappointed bummer GIF

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28 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

*has read the patch notes for The Old Blood*

Welp, Baruuks doomed.

the only thing he’s getting is the parry angle and a 0.2 increase to range.

I can only display my displeasure in the form of this gif

disappointed bummer GIF

Looks like no Exalted received an increase in damage.
In my eyes they're all doomed lmao.

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29 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

*has read the patch notes for The Old Blood*

Welp, Baruuks doomed.

the only thing he’s getting is the parry angle and a 0.2 increase to range.

I can only display my displeasure in the form of this gif

disappointed bummer GIF

I feel the same way 😞 Barruk is the loser of the patch

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7 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Looks like no Exalted received an increase in damage.

We also didn't get combo building on energy waves, which makes it much harder for Baruuk or Excal to use the heavy attacks, and they still can't use Shadow Debt mods for some reason. 

And that last little tidbit makes less and less sense as time goes on. Like c'mon. EB can still use Condition Overload, but these weapons still can't use (the heavily nerfed) Blood Rush? What's up with that?

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1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

We also didn't get combo building on energy waves, which makes it much harder for Baruuk or Excal to use the heavy attacks, and they still can't use Shadow Debt mods for some reason. 

And that last little tidbit makes less and less sense as time goes on. Like c'mon. EB can still use Condition Overload, but these weapons still can't use (the heavily nerfed) Blood Rush? What's up with that?

Blood Rush is still exponential, due to how crits work, while CO no longer is. CO also now applies additively after Pressure Point.
Meaning Blood Rush is still good, while CO is almost irrecognizable. Not worth a slot anymore.
You should test them out.

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8 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Blood Rush is still exponential, due to how crits work, while CO no longer is. CO also now applies additively after Pressure Point.
Meaning Blood Rush is still good, while CO is almost irrecognizable. Not worth a slot anymore.
You should test them out.

I've tested them a bit. 

CO is now a replacement to Pressure Point if you can get more than 2 status effects, which is absolutely trivial.

BR takes longer to become really good, but its max potential seems higher than before if it's in isolation. But when you're stacking different crit chance boosts, it isn't as broken. Which is okay, because old BR had some really broken math. I honestly don't know why they didn't make it additive with other crit boosts sooner. 

But none of this changes that no Shadow Debt mods on Exalted melees really just doesn't make sense anymore. 

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Baruuk needs the Gauss treatment so bad, it needs a buff badly, not only is the exalted not very good, but you spend more time keeping the meter full/empty than using the melee.

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