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(PS4)LoisGordils

First Catchmoon... Ignis Next?

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It was announced that the Catchmoon would be getting a (much deserved) nerf.

What about the Ignis (Wraith)? A flamethrower that has very long range, great ammo economy, highest beam thickness of all continuous weapons and creates an AoE upon impact on top of absurd damage against mobs with no real aiming required is a bit off. Especially when entire rooms can be wiped out by this in nanoseconds. Not only that, the Heat proc rework will bring this gun to even more powerful levels!

In my opinion, Ignis should not have the range of a laser. The stream of fire should be much shorter, but the thickness be increased to compensate. Damage can stay the same.

Edited by (PS4)LoisGordils
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Ignis already got nerfed (no innate punch through for obstacles anymore).

Other than that, Ignis is just a decent weapon. Not bad, but not excellent as well

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8 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Ignis already got nerfed (no innate punch through for obstacles anymore).

Other than that, Ignis is just a decent weapon. Not bad, but not excellent as well

It's very powerful though and with very high range for what it is

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Just now, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

It's very powerful though and with very high range for what it is

Yes but this is true for lots of weapons. Ever seen Zephyr + Arca Plasmor? That would justify a nerf as well.

Or Tigris Prime as one of the strongest weapons overall can also be used far beyond Shotgun Range.

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The Ignis isn't anywhere near as destructive as you make it out to be. A crit catchmoon built for rad/cold or rad/toxin is going to inflict 88k damage on everything in front of it, approximately 1.5 times per second, requires no reloading and doesn't run out of ammo (assuming pax charge). That's what you're comparing it against.

Sure, a gas Ignis can toxin EVERYTHING around it, but that takes a while to ramp up and is utterly impotent when toxic ancients are nearby.

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Not knowing specific stats but I think that primary usage is not all hoarded on a single weapon. Ignis Wraith, Fulmin and Acceltra are probably competeting with each other for the top spot which is fine. 

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Pretty sure the biggest problem with it isn't it's overall strenght, but how it can destroy huge groups of enemies without aiming on any regular mission. Sure, it might not be as effective in Sorties/Arbitration/ESO/etc., but it's completely overpowered and braindead when used on pretty much anything else, just like Ember was (and some others that still are op in a similar way).

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46 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Ignis already got nerfed (no innate punch through for obstacles anymore).

Other than that, Ignis is just a decent weapon. Not bad, but not excellent as well

At very high level content, perhaps. Though I'm only basing that on my 6-mod build which can still run high-level content on the rare occasion I feel the need to use it (I really, really don't like it)

Thing is, it's a jack of all trades. ALL trades. It basically doesn't have a weakness or a drawback in most content, and it doesn't really take any input or engagement to use properly. Simply put, in terms of a player input : power output ratio, it's very off-balance.

Range: more than decent, higher than average in its class. Yes, seriously. 27, 30 if you count the blast radius. I calculated, and average range for beam weapons is more like 25-ish. Not much, but c'mon, it's a flamethrower.

Damage: Very decent. As of 'Old Blood' it will have innate armour stripping capabilities as well.

Supplementary: So-so crit chance, although definitely still usable due to rapid-fire, and above-average multiplier somewhat compensates. Status is excellent, enabling it to strip armour very well with a corrosive build (bear in mind, it will gain innate armour strip very soon). This makes it hybrid-viable. All together, can work efficiently on single-targets.

AoE  potential: Excellent. It doesn't gain any advantages when fighting multiple targets (unlike, say, Gas-built Napalm Grenades Penta, which loves the huge spread of extra gas procs to magnify damage) but has a 3-metre wide beam plus a 3 metre damage radius, letting it basically sweep up anything in the general forward direction. It also punches through enemies (Not hitting through walls isn't a drawback, most things can't do that)

Ease-of-use: Aiming need not apply due to the aforementioned AoE. Ammo is practically a non-issue as it is more than reasonably efficient. You point in the general direction and hold down the fire button.

 

I don't think it's Damage potential should be nerfed (It IS a flamethrower) but I think it should have its ease-of-use toned down, indeed in a similar manner to catchmoon. Reduce its range - possibly also its ammo economy? In other words - Flamethrower weaknesses.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

It was announced that the Catchmoon would be getting a (much deserved) nerf.

What about the Ignis (Wraith)? A flamethrower that has very long range, beam thickness and creates an AoE upon impact on top of absurd damage with no real aiming required is a bit off. Especially when entire rooms can be wiped out by this in nanoseconds.

In my opinion, Ignis should not have the range of a laser. The stream of fire should be much shorter, but the thickness be increased to compensate. Damage can stay the same.

No the other weapons they are looking into are the fulmin and the arca plasmor.

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Personally I think Ignis is in a good spot right now, it is not too powerful (especially because there are no OP rivens), but still a very good weapon. Although I do agree that a reduction in range could be in order, bringing it in line with other beam weapons is fine. But I very much think that nerfing its damage would destroy the weapon, because as it stands, it already can't hold a candle to other dps weapons in higher levels.

But, Loza03 raises one good point:

Quote

Damage: Very decent. As of 'Old Blood' it will have innate armour stripping capabilities as well.

I think this will need further testing once the heat proc changes go live, but it could be grounds for some Ignis adjustments.

Edited by bluepheonix13

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Considering fire procs will be Corrosive+ soon. I'd imagine the Ignis Wraith is high on DEs "to look at" list. 

The standard Ignis tho is a different story. 

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Ignis is nowhere near Catchmoon. 

Here, the thing about catchmoon is about how high its damage is being crit focused and all. 

Most of the content just straight up deleted just by a single press of a button, even further so with pax seeker.

But most importantly is how some enemies just straight up ignores everything like:

-Wolf of saturn six, he can't be cc-ed, status, or just about anything. making straight up critical radiation is the only way to go.

-Battalyst/Stalker/anything that adapt, sure you can use paracesis or spoiler mode but a good catchmoon can demolish usual stalker in like 3-4 shots, 2 if you're buffed.

-Some bosses that has weakpoint, like Lech kril, Sargas ruk, or Ambulas. Hell, i can even oneshot Razorback instantly it went down.

-Arbitration drone, this thing move abruptly and unaffected by any kind of cc and status. Its health is even robotic which is weak (25%) to radiation. This make catchmoon the go-to for arbitration for how consistent it is in dispatching these annoying flies.

That's the reason i prefer Corinth which is a crit shotgun rather than Boar/Strun/Sobek/ status shotguns.

One more thing, Catchmoon gain access to secondary mods which has the some of the best mods in the game. 

-Primed pistol gambit [+187%] highest critical chance boost excluding Grinlok's augment.

-Lethal Torrent [+60% multishot, +60% firerate] Do i have to explain?

-Barrel diffusion [+120% multishot] tied with Hell's chamber for the highest multishot mod

-Primed heated charge [+165% heat]  Radiation damage.

-Hornet strike [+220% damage] Highest damage boosting mod

Oh, and Chroma is my main. 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

It was announced that the Catchmoon would be getting a (much deserved) nerf.

What about the Ignis (Wraith)? A flamethrower that has very long range, great ammo economy, highest beam thickness of all continuous weapons and creates an AoE upon impact on top of absurd damage against mobs with no real aiming required is a bit off. Especially when entire rooms can be wiped out by this in nanoseconds.

In my opinion, Ignis should not have the range of a laser. The stream of fire should be much shorter, but the thickness be increased to compensate. Damage can stay the same.

Nerf all powerful or effective weapons to the ground? Killing all the fun in Warframe and kill the game? What’s wrong with you people asking all these nerfs in a PvE game? 

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1 minute ago, George_PPS said:

Nerf all powerful or effective weapons to the ground? Killing all the fun in Warframe and kill the game? What’s wrong with you people asking all these nerfs in a PvE game? 

Fun in PvE games comes from killing enemies. If a trigger-happy Ignis player sweeps through tiles, what is there left to kill? What fun are we having? No, playing Solo is not a solution. Besides, a range nerf will not kill the Ignis. Unless of course y'all are incapable of actually approaching enemies and aiming. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)LoisGordils:

Fun in PvE games comes from killing enemies. If a trigger-happy Ignis player sweeps through tiles, what is there left to kill? What fun are we having? No, playing Solo is not a solution. Besides, a range nerf will not kill the Ignis. Unless of course y'all are incapable of actually approaching enemies and aiming. 

How about we try to advocate for content then where Ignis doesn't oneshot everything while the dozens of higher dps weapons with less AoE just generate more overkill damage instead of atleast killing indivdual enemies faster.

The problem is not that the Ignis has all the damage and all the range. The problem is that you can barely make use of the higher damage other weapons do in the vast majority of missions. EVen if you have a weapon that does 10x Ignis' damage but doesn't have the AoE, you mgiht still just use the Ignis because the enemies die to Ignis jsut fine and the higher damage is useless to you.

Same for the Catchmoon. The Catchmoon is just that on a higher level and with the added bonus of being super good for dealing with arbitration drones.

Sure you can just nerf every weapon that can hit more than one enemy at once so you can enjoy the "fun" of oneshotting enemy by enemy for 100x their health but do you really want that?

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57 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Nerf all powerful or effective weapons to the ground? Killing all the fun in Warframe and kill the game? What’s wrong with you people asking all these nerfs in a PvE game? 

I would highly question if the Ignis Wraith is the 'fun' kind of powerful. Tigris is the fun kind of powerful. It's definitely a powerhouse, it can be modded to have some AoE potential, it oneshots a ton of enemies either directly or after the fact, and it's meaty to fire. But, critically, it's not overpowered - it's not mindless.

You get downtime every time you fire. At most every other if you have trigger discipline. No matter what, you are guaranteed to have a moment of vulnerability, meaning you need to think on your feet at times. Ignis? Well...

Image result for W+m1

42 minutes ago, Raikh said:

How about we try to advocate for content then where Ignis doesn't oneshot everything while the dozens of higher dps weapons with less AoE just generate more overkill damage instead of atleast killing indivdual enemies faster.

The problem is not that the Ignis has all the damage and all the range. The problem is that you can barely make use of the higher damage other weapons do in the vast majority of missions. EVen if you have a weapon that does 10x Ignis' damage but doesn't have the AoE, you mgiht still just use the Ignis because the enemies die to Ignis jsut fine and the higher damage is useless to you.

Same for the Catchmoon. The Catchmoon is just that on a higher level and with the added bonus of being super good for dealing with arbitration drones.

Sure you can just nerf every weapon that can hit more than one enemy at once so you can enjoy the "fun" of oneshotting enemy by enemy for 100x their health but do you really want that?

Power creep/meta-slavery.

That is what you are asking for. For a game where people either get the handful of viable builds or get out. In other words, a world inhabited entirely by Wolves of Saturn Six. And even then there will probably still be some BS thing that can stomp it without effort.

Alternatively, this will result in a world with even more abandoned content than now. You think DE abandons content now? I watched a video talking about Iceborne for PC, and whilst I am undoubtedly looking forward to that update (G-rank, WOO! Yeah, I know it's 'master rank' but it will always be G in my heart), it was sobering to hear "Yeah, don't bother grinding for any endgame loot from the base game. It will be worthless when Iceborne drops."

I know it's traditional, but I cut my hunting teeth on MH4U where I bought the game, and I had all the stuff which wouldn't be obsoleted in a year. Even Generations had that whole 'upgrade tree' system which I believe carried over to its Ultimate. Progression was progression, that was it.

That is the road of 'just add harder stuff to match player power'. The name is 'accretion', and Warframe already strays dangerously close to that line already.

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vor 25 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Power creep/meta-slavery.

That is what you are asking for. For a game where people either get the handful of viable builds or get out. In other words, a world inhabited entirely by Wolves of Saturn Six. And even then there will probably still be some BS thing that can stomp it without effort.

Alternatively, this will result in a world with even more abandoned content than now. You think DE abandons content now? I watched a video talking about Iceborne for PC, and whilst I am undoubtedly looking forward to that update (G-rank, WOO! Yeah, I know it's 'master rank' but it will always be G in my heart), it was sobering to hear "Yeah, don't bother grinding for any endgame loot from the base game. It will be worthless when Iceborne drops."

I know it's traditional, but I cut my hunting teeth on MH4U where I bought the game, and I had all the stuff which wouldn't be obsoleted in a year. Even Generations had that whole 'upgrade tree' system which I believe carried over to its Ultimate. Progression was progression, that was it.

That is the road of 'just add harder stuff to match player power'. The name is 'accretion', and Warframe already strays dangerously close to that line already.

You put it to an extreme I didn't put it to. There is a vast space between everything dies on sight and everything is only killable by the most minmaxed meta builds.

The point is to add something to the mix that rewards people for optimizing things, that gives a playspace to things of power that are currently overshadowed by ease of use because power is irrelevant.

Adding a different content with its own rewards that offers space for more optimized builds, does not make relics irrelevant, it doesn't make farming Endo in Abritrations/Rathuum irrelevant, it doesn't make Index irrelevant, it doesn't make ESO or Tridolons irrelevant.

Also, as someone having played plenty of MHW, its not a good comparison. YOu still need  HR weapons to upgrade tot he master rank weapons, so if you don't already own them, you ahve to go abck and farm them anyway. ALos having the high end gear will make transitioning into Iceborne easier as the gear is better offensively and more flexible than early Master Rank armor. (Aslo side note, MR has a way higher weapon diversity than the base game ever had in terms of "meta-slavery")
HR stuff is obviously not gonna be your go to for master rank endgame, but thats how every progression based game ever works. Thats how WF works, too. You don't go around doing stuff with a Bration. You don't use Soma but Soma Prime etc. The content has its place at a certain point in time and once you have cleared that content and moved on to the next you also want to have something that promotes using the new power you got.

Warframe doesn't need to be hardcore but it has a history of years upon years of adding player power without adding a way to exercise that new power. The relic system was even a step back in that regard. Its the difference that got too big, not that the general gameplay loop doesn't work. Warframe to a degree lives the exact opposite of an oppressive ever replacing progression and that is stagnation. We have come to a point where our power moves forward on paper but never in practice unless we go into multiple hour long missions.

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1 minute ago, Raikh said:

You put it to an extreme I didn't put it to. There is a vast space between everything dies on sight and everything is only killable by the most minmaxed meta builds.

The point is to add something to the mix that rewards people for optimizing things, that gives a playspace to things of power that are currently overshadowed by ease of use because power is irrelevant.

Adding a different content with its own rewards that offers space for more optimized builds, does not make relics irrelevant, it doesn't make farming Endo in Abritrations/Rathuum irrelevant, it doesn't make Index irrelevant, it doesn't make ESO or Tridolons irrelevant.

Also, as someone having played plenty of MHW, its not a good comparison. YOu still need  HR weapons to upgrade tot he master rank weapons, so if you don't already own them, you ahve to go abck and farm them anyway. ALos having the high end gear will make transitioning into Iceborne easier as the gear is better offensively and more flexible than early Master Rank armor. (Aslo side note, MR has a way higher weapon diversity than the base game ever had in terms of "meta-slavery")
HR stuff is obviously not gonna be your go to for master rank endgame, but thats how every progression based game ever works. Thats how WF works, too. You don't go around doing stuff with a Bration. You don't use Soma but Soma Prime etc. The content has its place at a certain point in time and once you have cleared that content and moved on to the next you also want to have something that promotes using the new power you got.

Warframe doesn't need to be hardcore but it has a history of years upon years of adding player power without adding a way to exercise that new power. The relic system was even a step back in that regard. Its the difference that got too big, not that the general gameplay loop doesn't work. Warframe to a degree lives the exact opposite of an oppressive ever replacing progression and that is stagnation. We have come to a point where our power moves forward on paper but never in practice unless we go into multiple hour long missions.

Frankly speaking - it's a slippery slope. Traditionally, that's a fallacy, but consider this:

If every time there is something that is stronger than the current 'norm' of power, the next batch of content is designed around that one, or that handful of things, then power creep happens and anything below it becomes irrelevant, just a stepping stone to abandonment, then that future will happen, because sooner or later no old content will be worth ever using. And sure 'oh, at some point it'll have to stop', that's the point of a slippery slope fallacy, that's why it's a fallacy - because generally speaking people are smarter than that. But... why not stop NOW? Why not stop before that line gets any thinner? We've already had the Wolf, after all. The line of 'people are free to use what they want within the bounds of progression' has already been pushed. The line of fewer and fewer things being viable, or more and more things just getting abandoned (and no, not just weapons, entire kinds of content, like non-endless missions).

It's a cycle many games have already gone through - a cycle that has already killed games. IIRC, there was a card game that Zynga acquired. They basically accreted everything prior to their first Zynga-made set through power creep. Guess what happened next?

According to the wiki:

Quote

As for now Warstorm.com is now closed, the exclusive source of Warstorm is located on Facebook, which is currently run by Zynga Austin, the department which is the reincarnation of Challenge Games, the founder of Warstorm being an Australia Company.

As of September 30, 2011, Warstorm on Facebook has been shut down by Zynga.

Yeah.

Hyperbolic example, yes. Warframe is much more gradual. But the fact remains, constantly adding stuff to match content just gets your playerbase to leave. If not in one big lump, over time. It can be sustainable, in theory, but it's a much more fragile and risky strategy that makes a game constantly harder and harder to get into. 

 

At some point, we have to put our feet down, and say "no, we must bring outliers in line".

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I would highly question if the Ignis Wraith is the 'fun' kind of powerful.

I’m not here to make a big argument about whether or not Ignis needs to be nerfed. But I do want y’all to keep in mind that fun, as with challenge, is relative. What some people consider lazy and “braindead,” others may consider a godsend. Someone using a controller isn’t going to have the capability of super quick pinpoint aim. Not everyone has the mechanical skill for very accurate weapons. Even something like the Tigris Prime can be highly demanding with the awkward, jerky movement enemies have in this game. And for me personally, I can aim, but chemotherapy left me with dulled reflexes, and headaches with a distinct pain in my throat whenever I have to concentrate really hard on aiming. An easy to use weapon like the Ignis is a much appreciated reprieve.

Edited by (PS4)sister-hawk
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Just now, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

I’m not here to make a big argument about whether or not Ignis needs to be nerfed. But I do want y’all to keep in mind that fun, as with challenge, is relative. What some people consider lazy and “braindead,” others may consider a godsend. Someone using a controller isn’t going to have the capability of super quick pinpoint aim. Not everyone has the mechanical skill for very accurate weapons. Even something like the Tigris Prime can be highly demanding with the awkward, jerky movement enemies have in this game. And for me personally, I can aim, but chemotherapy left me with dulled reflexes, and headaches with a distinct pain in my throat whenever I have to concentrate really hard on aiming. An easy to use weapon like the Ignis is a much appreciate reprieve.

AoE weaponry isn't the problem. I have absolutely 0 issue with weapons not being good at aiming. In fact, I myself have nervous twitches and tics in my hands, along with a slower reaction speed (especially when  I was younger).

Fact of the matter is, accessibility design =/= game design. DE can implement Aim-assist for controllers, or for people with  conditions like yours, just as Celesete offers such accessibility options. But it doesn't compromise on core game design tenants. Allowing something that's broken to persist isn't accessibility - actual accessibility features are.

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vor 32 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Frankly speaking - it's a slippery slope. Traditionally, that's a fallacy, but consider this:

If every time there is something that is stronger than the current 'norm' of power, the next batch of content is designed around that one, or that handful of things, then power creep happens and anything below it becomes irrelevant, just a stepping stone to abandonment, then that future will happen, because sooner or later no old content will be worth ever using. And sure 'oh, at some point it'll have to stop', that's the point of a slippery slope fallacy, that's why it's a fallacy - because generally speaking people are smarter than that. But... why not stop NOW? Why not stop before that line gets any thinner? We've already had the Wolf, after all. The line of 'people are free to use what they want within the bounds of progression' has already been pushed. The line of fewer and fewer things being viable, or more and more things just getting abandoned (and no, not just weapons, entire kinds of content, like non-endless missions).

It's a cycle many games have already gone through - a cycle that has already killed games. IIRC, there was a card game that Zynga acquired. They basically accreted everything prior to their first Zynga-made set through power creep. Guess what happened next?

According to the wiki:

Yeah.

Hyperbolic example, yes. Warframe is much more gradual. But the fact remains, constantly adding stuff to match content just gets your playerbase to leave. If not in one big lump, over time. It can be sustainable, in theory, but it's a much more fragile and risky strategy that makes a game constantly harder and harder to get into. 

 

At some point, we have to put our feet down, and say "no, we must bring outliers in line".

Absolute stagnation of content is also a slippery slope. And you argue about power creep. But power creep is already happening and has been happening in Warframe for years which caused the issue to begin with.

Just adding more stuff without offering new places to take it to or places that are basically beaten before being entered is killing a game just the same. Its a matter of balance, not a matter of absolutes. Irrelevance isn't a good choice maker. Being forced into a strict meta isn't a good chocie maker. And quite ironically even in suhc irrelevance people establish a meta. Its just that now not the mathemtically most damaging weapons are meta because the damage is irrelevant but their practicability and AoE potential is what makes them the top choices which is why people are crying for nerfs.
The exaggeration of power creep and the exaggeration fo stagnation lead ot the same result. Every action the game loses meaning, every item loses all value and the game dies. The art of game balance is to find the good spots in-between, so that people stay engaged and interested. That also always coems with two side,s providing interestign enw gear as an incentive and interesting new content to provide a paltform for both the new gear and the old stuff because running the same old missions with the same old gear is debilitating the game eventually.

I would alsoa rgue that the Wolf is an extremely bad example. First the Wolf has multitudes of ways to be completely trivialized, it doesn't even come close to a restricted meta. Second he is one of the best showcases why armor should not scale with level and how broken the numbers are, which hurts both current content and the endgame people like me desire. I haven't included it in the last posts here sicne my posts are already quite long for a quick froum read, but I don't approve of the mechanics which can make stuff "difficult" atm. I believe there needs to be a bunch of changes to how scaling works for both players and enemies so neither of the mentioned extremes are accidentally realized.

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31 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Absolute stagnation of content is also a slippery slope. And you argue about power creep. But power creep is already happening and has been happening in Warframe for years which caused the issue to begin with.

Just adding more stuff without offering new places to take it to or places that are basically beaten before being entered is killing a game just the same. Its a matter of balance, not a matter of absolutes. Irrelevance isn't a good choice maker. Being forced into a strict meta isn't a good chocie maker. And quite ironically even in suhc irrelevance people establish a meta. Its just that now not the mathemtically most damaging weapons are meta because the damage is irrelevant but their practicability and AoE potential is what makes them the top choices which is why people are crying for nerfs.
The exaggeration of power creep and the exaggeration fo stagnation lead ot the same result. Every action the game loses meaning, every item loses all value and the game dies. The art of game balance is to find the good spots in-between, so that people stay engaged and interested. That also always coems with two side,s providing interestign enw gear as an incentive and interesting new content to provide a paltform for both the new gear and the old stuff because running the same old missions with the same old gear is debilitating the game eventually.

I would alsoa rgue that the Wolf is an extremely bad example. First the Wolf has multitudes of ways to be completely trivialized, it doesn't even come close to a restricted meta. Second he is one of the best showcases why armor should not scale with level and how broken the numbers are, which hurts both current content and the endgame people like me desire. I haven't included it in the last posts here sicne my posts are already quite long for a quick froum read, but I don't approve of the mechanics which can make stuff "difficult" atm. I believe there needs to be a bunch of changes to how scaling works for both players and enemies so neither of the mentioned extremes are accidentally realized.

Just adding more stuff without anywhere to take it? No. Adding more stuff tuned to an extreme minority like Ignis and Catchmoon? Also no. Both roads lead to doom.

The answer is to balance the outliers. In other words, nerf the Ignis, and the Catchmoon.

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yeah, lets all go back to beat enemies with wooden stick and throwing stones at them...

seriously, the ignis is rather useless against really high levels, so there is no need to make it even more useless. those of you who think it overpowered, should stop playing on kindergarten level with it - where about everything that was formated a few times is over the top.

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..i don't think it's wise to go after it. do we even have an idea of it's use numbers as a starting point for this?

moreover, can we wait at least until the entire melee rebalance AND the secondary weapon post-catchmoon hit lineup settle?

What weapons are supposed to be fun if the ignis is supposedly less fun or boring? whenever I hear a "it's not a fun weapon" I question what is to those who say a certain weapon is not. personally i find the flamethrower amusing at least, even when i don't use it.

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