(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

[Wrathz0]

So Vauban's rework is a side step.......

1.Tesla Nervos are ok with the augment but would love to see a 100% proc chance for some CC

2. MineLayer........Is literally still meme ability. Why couldn't this ability be changed into a more Survivability power. EX: Change the ability into a Drone that has different buffs/survivability. Drone 1 has Overdriver buff(Strength,Duration effects this ability), Drone 2 deploys a Shield dome that increases HP/Shield regen when entered(Strength,Range,Duration effects this ability), Drone 3 Jams enemy weapons(Range, Duration effect this ability), Drone 4 When deployed links with nearby enemies and when linked enemies are killed Drone 4 pulses energy to nearby Tenno(Range, Strength, Duration effect this ability).

3.Photon Laser, Bastille/Vortex animation speed needs to be quicker to cast. 

Thats really all I could see that needs to be changed with Vauban right now all I see him being good at is lower lvl missions. 

[Zalanore]

Had some time to play around with the new Vauban, put some more forma in him too. Overall I'm very impressed. Haven't fully tested his kit, but his 1, 3, and 4 are fantastic, he feels really good overall, he's very fun, his animations are amazing, and he didn't lose any of his functionality as the king of CC.

 

I personally thought Vaubon was balanced and fun before the update. I played him regularly in Mobile defense and interception. I'm glad he maintained that while becoming even more enjoyable to play.

 

I LOVE the feel of his 3. It's so satisfying, and the delay gives it even more impact.

 

I haven't tested it yet, but it would be really nice if reduced casting time affected that delay on his 3 for people who actually want to get kills with it. Right now he has nidus problems. Everyone kills the ball of enemies before the explosion goes off.

 

Thank you DE Scott for this rework.

[Hypernaut1]

49 minutes ago, Citan666 said:

Nope. She's far lesser now. "Objectively" (lol as if such thing was possible).

I completely agree with the other Tenno. Ember did only need ONE syndicate mod to be playable at high level, which was either the one on 3 or the one on 4. Besides that, she could be built in several ways and still be very enjoyable even at decently high level (never tried more than hour-long missions because I actually have a life ^^).

The only problem was that damage didn't scale enough overall, so you needed to rely on weapons ultimately if you wanted to deal competitive damage compared to other frames.

And going full melee with Firequake was not viable solo at end level because melee is single-target by essence and any enemy could one-shot you.

But she could be made a very strong ally with 1 and 4, build on STR and Range (and somewhat efficiency), crowd controlling while also opening up melee finishers for friends (or self sometimes), and otherwise using empowered weapons (1 with mod + 2 = crazy goodness) to deal good damage. Problems arised if you wanted to use all syndicate mods to really empower the "control" aspect. ^^

So, yeah, there were so problems with Ember. But resolving those problems could be easily made without basically creating a whole new frame.

Most of the ideas of defense/armor stripping effects could have been seamlessly integrated in regular abilities, exampls...

Accelerant -> strip armor bonus when fire abilities used on impregnated enemies,

Circle of Fire -> increasing armor buff / DR buff as you stay inside the ring for longer time, with lingering effect once you step out of it or circle ends, or maybe "cast as hold" to set self on fire for a duration based on number of enemies set on fire since last cast for example).

Wall of Fire -> while active, hold cast to "draw and absorb fire" from enemies, grabbing a small portion of HP and extra Armor (percentage based but fixed hard cap, buffable with power).

In short, before, Ember could be played in several different ways. Not all were equal in efficiency, sure (honestly is there a frame for which that assertion wouldn't apply?) but you had diversity, and you could fit in any group, change playstyle when you wanted different feeling, and you at least felt some uniqueness in that play. Now? It's like a sad mix between Gara and Saryn.

 

There old Ember kit could've been improved. For me, while she's still fun to play, she's lost her flavor IMO. Her abilities now really just feel copy paste. 

I don't own every frame that has been reworked, but I own quite a few that have. Ember is the only frame that feels like they threw out the old frame and gave us a new one. 

[Pryzmatiq]

After playing Ember and getting used to her new kit, I've noticed that her energy consumption in general is way to high, and in turn makes it to where you either need to super micro-manage her or simply not use Immolation at all to avoid the headache. A few ideas of mine are:

- Lower the activation cost of immolation to 15-25 instead of its current 50.
- Make it to where Fireblast costs 50-66% less energy if Immolation has max heat. (Fireball could also cost less based on the heat level as well)
- If Immolation's heat gauge is maxed and you manually cancel it, Ember could absorb the heat and convert it into energy or energy/sec.

Something along those lines would help tremendously.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pryzmatiq

[Rakosta_Kai]

Overall, I like the direction of the new changes with Vauban. I have some thoughts about a few of the skills though...

Tesla Nervo:

I definitely like the direction. I'd like to see each of the nervo Teslas act as mini Concussion mines when they die off as well though as a measure of extra defense

Minelayer:

Tether: seems a bit redundant and don't really see a use for it. Damage or defense would have been better as this one is unpredictable and Vauban has better tools. Maybe set it to have mobs tethered to it give Vauban health/energy directly or convey a Link effect for defense?

Flechette: Feels underpowered, and while I get the comparison to a bouncing betty, I would have preferred to see front loaded damage on a trap like this as opposed to the sustained damage mechanic it has currently. 

Vector Pad: I don't like it... It's not fun. Parkour makes a movement function like this fairly obsolete I see no uses for it. CC from it is redundant and not useful. A teleport would have been nifty or, preferably, a switch teleport that turns the switched enemy into a timebomb and camouflages it as Vauban to pull threat.

Vauban should be about control as a form of defense and damage mitigation through control with damage wearing opponents down through both imo. Some changes are definite improvements and some just don't.

[Javat.K]

Lights and shadows with Ember rework. I like the concept of this new Ember but I think is not well executed and gameplay becomes disappointing.

Fireball: Still useless. Like the before Ember, this abilitiy don't have sense because nobody are going waste time killing with this ability when we have powerful weapons. We don't need a 800-1600 fire damage and 300-600 area damage. This would be useful if the enemy with fire status had a fear debuff like Terrify from Nekros but not in area, only enemys hited with fireball. If you would be covered in flames you would run desperately trying to extinghis the flames right?

Immolation: I love it but happends something and I don't know if it's a bug or is done intentionally. With 175% efficiency drain/second is 2.5 but this is not true. When energy start drain, the drain/sec is every time more and more faster reaching more than 10 enersy/sec. It's frustrating when we use the next ability because... well... keep reading.

Fireblast: Why this ability use so much energy?? I like how works this but this consume too much energy and when we combine with Immolation 90% consuming 10 energy/sec... I think this need an adjusment

Inferno: Maybe the best reworked ability of Ember.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Javat.K

[WarRelic]

Loving Ember right now easily the best thing in this patch. Maxed Efficiency, Rage/Hunter adrenaline, Primed Flow, Intensify, 2 augments (2) and (3)... Fire Tank support that heal's it's self and can sustain 90% damage mitigation fairly well while giving 50% damage resistance to close buddies. Umbral viable. Range makes the bar harder to manage.

The Immolation bar could have 2 stages and double the capacity to make it easier to manage. The first bar being cost neutral and reaching 90% damage mitigation. The second bar having compounding energy cost right up to burning out in a phoenix death/rebirth concentric flame wall (nuke).  Otherwise I really like it.

[GreyEnneract]

3 hours ago, Citan666 said:

Confused individual.

You've said nothing to prove that she's weaker now than before. Which makes sense of course, seeing as you can't disprove reality itself.
If your complaint is just that you don't like her new playstyle, then it would be valid to just say that instead of being dramatic.
Because currently, the number of issues Ember has hasn't decreased, they've just traded places.

[Awazx]

Dear DE: I stayed out of the game for several months and the expected rework of Vauban motivated me to download the update. Result: I am very disappointed.

I can only define this rework as a disaster. It's amazing, but Vauban is now even more clumsy and slower than his previous version, which was also slow and clumsy:

1. You have converted 3 of your 4 skills to "load skills." Loading skills in an ultra-fast rhythm game like Warframe, where a fraction of a second can be the difference between dying or living.

2. No improvement in their survival. Vauban remains as fragile as its previous version, but at the same time, you have designed your skills to force Vauban to remain close to the epicenter of the battle.

Horrible, uncomfortable, counterintuitive, badly thought.

DE, I think it's amazing that after 6 years you don't understand your own game. What a mess.

[MrDangatang]

I dont want to play Vauban anymore. My heart just broke in half

Edited November 4, 2019 by MrDangatang

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, TheBatman17 said:

- He doesn't have an defensive ability, vauban is one of the most squis

Bastille gives everyone within it the armor it drains from enemies over time, up to 1,000.
You're still technically correct however, since his base health and armor pool aren't high enough to synergize perfectly with this to survive.

[MrFrog9]

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Inferno manages to be more restrictive than World on Fire, yet not that much more interactive, as the ability is just a button press for near-instant auto-targeted damage.

No you don't understand, having to constantly tap 4 to spam a one-off cast instead of pressing 4 once to toggle a channelled ability is way more fun and interactive. Feast your nearsighted, visibly jaundiced eyes on this exciting, engaging Ember gameplay:

Just watching it makes my left index finger cramp up from sheer excitement and engagement.
Sarcasm aside, I fully agree with this.statement. How does Inferno improve on even pre-nerf World on Fire from either a gameplay or balancing standpoint? It's just as mindless and boring; while I get that the idea is that making it a instantaneous cast is supposed to make it more engaging than a set-and-forget toggle, in practice the ability is so spammable that continually tapping 4 just becomes an unconscious tic (when I tried to play Vauban afterwards it actually took me a couple minutes to un-train myself from reflexively tapping 4 whenever I saw enemies). From a balancing standpoint it's arguably worse; though it loses WoF's full 360-degree coverage and ostensibly requires LoS (see addendum below), it also does way more damage (enough to be viable in lategame with proper modding) and both targets and ignites enemies far more consistently, and doesn't interfere with energy regeneration to boot.

(Incidentally, in the clip I posted one can see a couple instances in which a fireball drops on an enemy directly below me in the lower compartment through the floor, despite the enemy in question being unquestionably both offscreen and obstructed from view of both Ember and the camera. Working as intended?)

E: Link to the full clip since giphy cut a little bit off the end: https://imgur.com/Z0a9L7d

Edited November 4, 2019 by MrFrog9
changed .mp4 link to a giphy link to save people having to click through

[Citan666]

Il y a 2 heures, GreyEnneract a dit :

You've said nothing to prove that she's weaker now than before. Which makes sense of course, seeing as you can't disprove reality itself.
If your complaint is just that you don't like her new playstyle, then it would be valid to just say that instead of being dramatic.
Because currently, the number of issues Ember has hasn't decreased, they've just traded places.

Please, learn to read before you try and diminish other people's argument by useless ad hominem attacks.

My problem is not, in core, that she would be weaker than the old one. I wouldn't really care that much to be honest. It's that Ember lost its identity for a mechanic that manages to be BOTH bland and clunky. 

You have much less versatility than before, you basically either just spam 4, or simply alternate abilities to avoid overheat. Worse, some abilities anti-synergize (like Fire blast pushing people away when you'd like to on the contrary pull them together for upcoming Fireball or easier Meteor) But all crowd control is effectively gone. Ember is "just fire damage" now, with a bit of strip armor. Yaaay... Or not at all.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Citan666

[Citan666]

sorry double click, my mistake, post to remove.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Citan666

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Citan666 said:

Please, learn to read before you try and diminish other people's argument by useless ad hominem attacks.

The irony in this response makes it worth upvoting, it being a double-post even more so. 
If you're not constructive to the topic in your replies, the mods will come after you though.
Prove me wrong while keeping the focus on Ember and Vauban, please.

[Citan666]

il y a 2 minutes, GreyEnneract a dit :

The irony in this response makes it worth upvoting, it being a double-post even more so. 
If you're not constructive to the topic in your replies, the mods will come after you though.
Prove me wrong while keeping the focus on Ember and Vauban, please.

Well, if you'd like, I'd be happy to ask them how saying that someone is a "confused individual" is respectful or contributing to a constructive argumentation. 

Focus yourself first. ^^

il y a 44 minutes, MrFrog9 a dit :

No you don't understand, having to constantly tap 4 to spam a one-off cast instead of pressing 4 once to toggle a channelled ability is way more fun and interactive. Feast your nearsighted, visibly jaundiced eyes on this exciting, engaging Ember gameplay:

Just watching it makes my left index finger cramp up from sheer excitement and engagement.
Sarcasm aside, I fully agree with this.statement. How does Inferno improve on even pre-nerf World on Fire from either a gameplay or balancing standpoint? It's just as mindless and boring; while I get that the idea is that making it a instantaneous cast is supposed to make it more engaging than a set-and-forget toggle, in practice the ability is so spammable that continually tapping 4 just becomes an unconscious tic (when I tried to play Vauban afterwards it actually took me a couple minutes to un-train myself from reflexively tapping 4 whenever I saw enemies). From a balancing standpoint it's arguably worse; though it loses WoF's full 360-degree coverage and ostensibly requires LoS (see addendum below), it also does way more damage (enough to be viable in lategame with proper modding) and both targets and ignites enemies far more consistently, and doesn't interfere with energy regeneration to boot.

(Incidentally, in the clip I posted one can see a couple instances in which a fireball drops on an enemy directly below me in the lower compartment through the floor, despite the enemy in question being unquestionably both offscreen and obstructed from view of both Ember and the camera. Working as intended?)

E: Link to the full clip since giphy cut a little bit off the end: https://imgur.com/Z0a9L7d

Hahaha. Nice illustration.

Also I don't get the hate on World on Fire. There are *plenty* "set and forget" or "cast once, enjoy 20+ sec" abilities in Warframe, and nobody seem shocked by this. 

As for World of Fire being "an ability requiring no engagement, killing without risk", I daresay people who make those assertions never really tried to play high level missions. 

Even Sorties are enough to make Ember die from an unlucky one-shot, or simply being focus-fired by trash mobs (speaking pre-rework here). You definitely needed to jump around and pay attention to your surroundings, while fire became insufficient to kill them. 

So you needed Firequake for it to be really useful, which was kinda a problem indeed (no Warframe should need Syndicate mod to have useful and enjoyable abilities imo). But just as a crowd control it was largely worth it.

As for low level, I don't get how having World on Fire "kill as you move" being more problematic. Any Warframe can instakill anything below level 50 with abilities anyways.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Citan666

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Citan666 said:

Well, if you'd like, I'd be happy to ask them how saying that someone is a "confused individual" is respectful or contributing to a constructive argumentation. 

Focus yourself first. ^^

If the reply was solely that quote, you'd be correct.
You're doing it again by the way, but thank you for editing your post before this one.
As a heads up, enemies that are already on fire aren't blown away by Fire Blast.

[Citan666]

il y a 7 minutes, GreyEnneract a dit :

If the reply was solely that quote, you'd be correct.
You're doing it again by the way, but thank you for editing your post before this one.
As a heads up, enemies that are already on fire aren't blown away by Fire Blast.

I usually write my posts in two times simply because I multitask and often want to quote several posts too.

Also, I'm never the one starting to be disrespectful, but I have no trouble adjusting to someone else's level. Just FYI.

Good point stressing the "safeguard" of Fireblast on enemies on fire. But that does mean you already used either the 4 or the 1. I don't get how this could be useful then? Plus, imo, you canno consider "crowd control" a simple (and sometimes not working) short knockback. IMO.

Pre-rework Ember could make enemies flee (with 3), or perma-knock them (with 4). That is decent (not even great tbh ^^, when compared to other frames) crowd control.

(Anwyays, last edit for me, time to go to sleep. Good night all)

Edited November 4, 2019 by Citan666

[ZenHare]

Ember

Very impressed. These are some interesting changes. She is much more team orientated without it being crippling.

Fireball - Your average first ability. It goes a little more damage than I would expect for a first ability. I don't think any players are going to complain. However, let's talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Fireball Frenzy. Did you seriously... *takes a breath* Did you seriously take a D/C ranked warframe and push her all the way up into the Infinite Club with an augment of all things? Now if Gara the leader of that club, then Ember is a honorary member along with Mag and her almost-infinite DPS tricks, but still a member. In practice, people's PCs will probably catch on fire before you could gather enough mobs to really make the power gain obnoxious. However, it is something I would keep an eye on because us players are sneaky bastards.

Immolation - Decent defense for a frame that was infamous for being a glass cannon. Her fluctuating damage resistance isn't that bad when compared to other caster frames. Mesa's 90% resistance is worthless against melee. Nova's resistance fluctuates constantly between a possible 90% to 0%. To keep some control over it, Nova has to use an augment mod. (That sucks.) Zephyr's 100% avoidance is useless against melee and AoE attacks. Octavia's invisibility doesn't protect her from AoE attacks that hit her teammates while they are running by her. There is a nice bar to show the level along with a character effect which looks very good. There are nice visual cues. At higher levels, the ability works very well with Adaptation and Arcane Guardian. Overall an A+. I wonder if people are running with older builds that have less than 100% duration and efficiency and that is going to be crippling with this rework. The augment is interesting as it lets you add 50% to almost 100% to everyone's effective hit points. Now whether that is worth the mod slot is open to debate.

Fireblast - Not bad. For levels 1-40, it will probably be all the armor stripping you will need. At levels 40-60 and as long as one or two other people have Corrosive Projection in additon to Fireblast, you probably still won't have any issues with armor. The damage is enough to kill low level mobs on the first few planets. That is a common theme for warframe where abilities that do static damage just lose their effectiveness as you level. On the other hand, the CC is good for all levels. Whew! It wasn't a slow or a disarm. The augment is good. A nice heal that you use on demand rather than it being a random proc. Once you get access to operator arcanes, then you may not need it any more.

Inferno - It's a nuke. It's pretty. What more to say. I expect it is useful for the same levels where all the other nukes are useful which is generally under level 60. I have not tested the augment as I am past the level where I would find Inferno useful. I will just have to make myself use it more as it does have a low energy cost. Warframe has just trained me that nukes = a lot of energy to use. I would prefer to see the nukes originate from Ember and arc towards their targets, but with a lot of enemies I could see how that might blind some people. 

LoS - I think LoS checks should be used on a lot more abilities.Would the various AoE nuking warframes been anywhere as annoying or disruptive if their abilities required LoS? Could we have avoid some unnecessary nerfs? As a Mag player, it hurts a little to say this. But on the other hand, I shouldn't be able to do 80% of all the damage on a small map leaving the other players with little too do.    

[MrFrog9]

30 minutes ago, Citan666 said:

As for World of Fire being "an ability requiring no engagement, killing without risk", I daresay people who make those assertions never really tried to play high level missions. 

That was part of the issue with WoF tho; it was cheesy on low-level missions where anything that came within x meters of Ember would instantly die yet its terrible damage scaling made it nigh-on-useless at high levels even with Accelerant. It was the worst of both worlds.

Also because I've done literally nothing but b*tch about Ember in here for 2 days here's me making a meme of that one Interception map everyone hates with Vauban's speed pad (ignore the neon green Opticor that goes with my fashion not at all, lol):

219% power strength. The diagonal and horizontal jumps are doable with 150% but are obviously slower. I don't think the lengthwise jump is doable with much less sadly (you can see that I barely made it over the fence lol).

Speed pad is conceptually fine IMO; it's silly fun and I'd be really sad if it was taken out like some people are asking. All it really needs is higher base power because right now you kind of have to build for strength to get the boost to a useful level (the base boost of 25 m/s is indeed very sh*t). I do like the idea someone floated of having it disarm enemies that step on it, because that'd synergise nicely with its potential to function as a discount Speedva on Defense missions.

[Helmed]

Embers Overheat ramps up too fast 

Make it twice as slow or let it die out on its own like gauzes speed

Edited November 5, 2019 by Helmed

[KenthNisshoku]

Vauban

Photon Strike needs to hit faster or instantly because before the strike hits my targets others would have gunned down the enemies caught in the aoe of my ability before it hits them making the ability look cool but not really helpful also would be better if radiation than blast. Also the animation throw in mid air needs to be faster because the time needed to throw and the time needed for the strike to hit makes it a hassle to use while in mid air.

Flechette Orb needs to be slash because puncture is a weak status that doesn't really help anybody.

Vector Pad needs to add a duration speed bonus and not just a horizontal launch pad.

Edited November 5, 2019 by KenthNisshoku

[VolkerxD]

Please keep embers heat gauge the way it is, after a certain level you need it rising that quickly in order to deal with armoured  enemies. but please reduce it's energy cost I'm running 170% efficiency and 128 power duration and after around 2+ minutes with so much on fire it drains too quickly. the build up speed is fine as at level 100+ I need the one second recharge to deal with heavily armoured enemies entering the room just after a cast. but after a while I do need to turn it of to reset at level 100+ that is really bad, and I run zenurik and one maxed out arcane energize. Please do not change the charging speed of the heat gauge just the energy consumption around the mechanic.

Edited November 5, 2019 by VolkerxD

[Tatann]

8 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Bastille gives everyone within it the armor it drains from enemies over time, up to 1,000.
You're still technically correct however, since his base health and armor pool aren't high enough to synergize perfectly with this to survive.

You're right about that, his stats are too low to benefit from armor. He should have gained DR so that at least his shield had some use

Being inside bastille should bring you a basic DR (if it can stop enemies, it can slow bullets), maybe 30% and build up to 90% quickly if enemies are stuck in it. Something like 5% per enemy per second (scaling with power strength). So if you "bastille" 4 or 5 enemies, you're at full DR in a few seconds

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Tatann

[trigon360]