(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

[Hypernaut1]

12 hours ago, 00zau said:

Immolate has too much going on "under the hood" that players can't see in game.

When you're at max heat, the drain starts to increase over time, but there's no visible indication of what your current drain is. This means that players have to look directly at their energy bar to track it; the overheat indicator is useless because you can either be draining a trickle of energy, or be draining enough to empty your bar in 15 seconds. And there's no buff bar icon or anything to tell you what it's going to do, you either have to stare at your energy bar to track the drain rate or wonder why you've suddenly run out of energy.

Making that problem worse, the fill rate of the overheat bar is very opaque as well. Rather than directly adding to the bar, her 1 and 4 increase the fill rate, and on the flip side, her 3 reduces the fill rate in addition to directly reducing the bar. These effects all appear to stack, and none of them have any visible indicator. So once again, you can either have a heat bar that takes minutes to fill up, or takes seconds to fill up, and there's no visible indicator of what it's going to do other than staring at the bar. Worse, the buffs seem to last indefinitly. If you spam 1 or 4, you're going to have a massive fill rate until you spam 3 a similar amount. I spammed out a bunch of fireballs to increase my fill rate, then stood on an energy spawn in the sanctuary for several minutes, and my fill rate was still incredible after using 3.

We need visual indicator that let us see what's going to happen, not just the current state. A full energy bar might be empty in 5 seconds or be fine, but you can't tell at a glance. An empty heat bar could take 5 minutes to fill or 5 seconds, but you can't tell without staring at it to look at the rate of change. Give us buff icons to show us what level of drain Immolate has ramped up to, and another to show what our current fill rate is.

I'm also just not a fan in general of how fast Immolate can drain your energy. You're effectively punished for turning on an always-on ability because if you don't micromanage the heat bar it'll drain your energy at an absurd rate if you leave it maxed for any length of time. I think that the drain rate should be capped at 2-3x the initial rate so that it doesn't scale up to the "WTF where'd all my energy go" level. Managing your heat to minimize the drain should be rewarded with better efficiency, not be a requirement to play the frame at all.

I just want this to be visible again. Something needs to be done about all these unknown attributes of the meter. 

Either remove the increased energy drain, or keep the heat rate constant. Managing both is not fun

[PsiWarp]

Minelayer could use a lot more improvements. Although made for quantity and variety, the mines need to be quality enough to make this ability worth constant usage.

Tether Coil - increase the pulling force of the coils, release enemies that can't be pulled into the orb after 3 seconds, don't tether to dead bodies anymore.

Flechette Orb - increase damage proportional to the number of times an enemy has been hit by nails. The more hits to an enemy, the deadlier the nails become.

Vector Pad - apply an acceleration buff to Vauban and allies that used the pad. The longer the ally moves in a direction, the faster he moves.

Overdriver - applies its buff to the player and the companion, now also provides damage reduction which affects both shields and health. No longer jumps to mission objectives.

[MrFrog9]

6 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Overdriver - applies its buff to the player and the companion, now also provides damage reduction which affects both shields and health. No longer jumps to mission objectives.

Honestly I think just changing it so that it stays on the field and buffs everything in range instead of jumping to a single target would be a massive QoL improvement. It's decent when solo but sticking it on individual teammates is awkward.

[Icebreccer]

4 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

Honestly I think just changing it so that it stays on the field and buffs everything in range instead of jumping to a single target would be a massive QoL improvement. It's decent when solo but sticking it on individual teammates is awkward.

In my opinion best would be if it would stick to Vauban player and then just buff everything in range. It's awkward to use if it's a stationary buff.

[MrFrog9]

4 minutes ago, Judqment8 said:

In my opinion best would be if it would stick to Vauban player and then just buff everything in range. It's awkward to use if it's a stationary buff.

I agree although Vauban having exactly one ability that is specifically not a deployable ball that sits out on the field independently from him upsets me for reasons I don't understand.

E: FWIW the ability is called Minelayer but since only Vector and Flechette even vaguely function as mines that ship has long since sailed.

Edited November 9, 2019 by MrFrog9

[Icebreccer]

3 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

I agree although Vauban having exactly one ability that is specifically not a deployable ball that sits out on the field independently from him upsets me for reasons I don't understand.

E: FWIW the ability is called Minelayer but since only Vector and Flechette even vaguely function as mines that ship has long since sailed.

Well, it could be a floating/superfast ground roller that follows Vauban around. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Anything to make him less of a sitting duck.

If I'd get to decide I would just scrap the whole "Minelayer" crap and would just steal Volt's shield and give it to Vauban. BAM! A fitting ability that gives Vauban what he actually needs. I actually loved one of the ideas that someone suggested, a deployable "Glacis" shield that reflects incoming fire.

 

[Raqiya]

2 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

This is a very unpopular opinion and it's thus probably not worth bringing up at this point (especially because I think I've already said it earlier) but I like the speed pad a lot and don't want it removed/replaced, only buffed if anything.

But why? its just Bounce rotated 90 degrees and extremely clunky to use, serves little to no purpose.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

When are you guys going to let us move UI elements? Cause i like having my stuff big and that causes a lot of things bumping into each other. This is not the only time this has happened.

[FrigidMesa]

so i feel having played a lot of ember since the rework that everything is were it should be but one thing. the 4 augment is way too strong because it just drops way too much energy. i think the augment should be changed to regenerate energy based on enemies  currently under the effect of the 4. that way you would need some duration to take advantage of the augment instead of not having any duration. as it stands right now the energy output is just ridiculous making her one of the most lazy damage frames for mid game (20-40ish). i don't want embers 4 to be nerfed as i think it is right were it should be, but the augment should be looked at. 

[Nine]

I was very skeptical at first, but I am really enjoying the reworks. However, Vauban's 3 has had it's windup time / visual / sound removed and it was easily the most satisfying part of his kit. 
I really would appreciate it being reconsidered, without it everything seems very... paper thin gameplay wise.

Even allowing casting speed mods to speed it up might help assuage some while maintaining the original ability?

Also, Ember's rework is nice, her four feels very fast though, too fast... similar problem I suppose.
While I love the meteors of flame, a fire that spreads would be nice, from enemy to enemy, but the wider spread the more drain? Just here about the Vauban thing honestly.

[MrFrog9]

9 hours ago, Raqiya said:

But why? its just Bounce rotated 90 degrees and extremely clunky to use, serves little to no purpose.

If you actually think that and aren't just exaggerating for effect then you obviously don't get how hilariously worthless Bounce actually was. All it did was let you jump very slightly higher than normal or very briefly immobilise an enemy, for a whopping 50 energy cost. (E: This sounds way more confrontational than I intended but I'm too tired to think of a way to rephrase it)

Vector Pad, by contrast, does in fact let you move from place to place objectively faster than you could without or prevent enemies from moving through choke points and/or speed them towards a defense objective, and is in particular useful for quickly moving between Interception towers. I'm not saying the move is perfect -- the base speed boost is indeed pathetic (you need to at least slot in Intensify for it to be meaningful esp. considering the cast time) and I really don't get why Minelayer in general was given a casting animation -- but scrapping a really unique ability entirely instead of just polishing it so it works better seems excessive to me.

Although, like I said, this is an unpopular opinion, given very late (for better or for worse DE has likely already come to a decision regarding what to do about Minelayer and simply has yet to implement it), and I doubt DE's going to listen to one guy who likes pretending he's playing Mario Kart on PoE when 95% of the community hates the pad and wants a shield instead.

Edited November 10, 2019 by MrFrog9

[DrakeWurrum]

My feedback on Vauban:

• The way you combined Bastille and Vortex seems to have worked out well.
• I like that Bastille grants Armor to Vauban, but maintaining it costs a lot of Energy, and Bastille itself does not protect against damage from ranged enemies.
• I'm not really happy at all that Minelayer is still a thing, even after playing with him more.
• Tether Mine doesn't work as advertised - enemies are usually just tethered to one spot and are never grouped up. Bastille and Vortex are way better at doing its job.
• Flechette Orb does actually seem a bit useful at chokepoints, but it's damage is ultimately too weak. It's better to group with Vortex and nuke with Orbital Strike.
• Vector Pad seems like it could be useful, but I have to constantly spam it in front of me to run through missions with it, so it ultimately isn't satisfying.
• Vector Pad DOES seem like it can control chokepoints well - but Vortex is more effective at this.
• I like the idea of Overdriver, but in the end I don't use it because I'd rather spend my Energy elsewhere
• Tesla Nervos seem to be an improvement over the old design, but ultimately just don't do enough damage to matter. They need additional functionality to matter.
• It's annoying that I have to "charge" Tesla Nervos to get full functionality. I'd rather just cast and forget.
• Orbital Strike seems effective, useful, and... has it's own unique feel as an ability.
• Orbital Strike feels like it belongs in the first ability slot, since it's such a spammable nuke.
• Vauban is too squishy and dies too easily, even with Bastille's armor.

He needs more work, but he does seem improved. Right now he takes too much Energy to use effectively. I still have to try the Orbital Strike augment, but I feel like he needs a way to regain Energy. Maybe have it so when enemies die in Vortex, it consumes their matter and converts it to pure energy, restoring Energy for you per enemy? Or maybe while standing in Vortex, Vauban simply regenerates Energy.

I still very much feel that Minelayer needs to be completely scrapped. I feel like Vauban would do better if he had some kind of tech-themed armor that granted him a defensive bonus. Why not take the armor-stripping portion of Bastille and make that it's own self-buff ability for Vauban? An ability that, for a certain duration of time, causes Vauban to strip armor AND shields from enemies within range, and grant it to himself? You could include an augment that causes the buff to increase the damage of Vauban and nearby allies, based on how much armor/shields it has stripped. Obviously with maximum amount.

Then, for added defensive utility, make it so Tesla Nervos will actually regenerate health to Vauban when they damage enemies? Sort of like little roaming parasites. They don't need to do amazing damage if they are effective at restoring health.
Alternatively, maybe Tesla Nervos could be the way Vauban regenerates his Energy?

If you removed the "charge" mechanic and just let us cast 4 Nervos with a tap, you could change it so Tesla Nervos will build up a charge when damaging enemies. Then we could hold 1 to release said charge for a new effect - maybe it gives Vauban a temporary sprint speed buff. Or maybe it explodes the Nervos for damage (which is redundant with Orbital Strike). Or maybe that would cause them to release a burst of Energy. Whatever the benefit, it would be a more interesting mechanic.

Edited November 10, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Umquaptovis]

After some time with Vauban I actually like a lot of what has been done but there are a few things that need attention.

Tesla is nice but the ai seems to all target the same target when not thrown individually. more of a small thing though.

Why boost pad?

The tethers are nice but I just wish they grabbed 4 targets.

Now the big one. Overdriver. It should not cost 100 75 or 50 energy plus the cast times for a player to apply the buff to one teammate. every time I want to use this ability it rarely targets who I want to hit. i can throw it out there and its a 50/50 shot to even get it to latch on to other players over their pets, Khora just compounds the issue. its a good ability but I just want to throw it out there and have it land on a team mate when they need it and not their dog. In a team it is my preferred ability to use for mine layer but it waists so much time as it is atm.

[Mu_Gera]

Can the damage reduction on embers immolation not be tied to the overheat gauge? You can't make full use of the max percentage and the bonuses without having your energy absolutely chunked. Or atleast some kinda cap or grace period before the energy drain starts.

[Tatann]

Hi @[DE]Danielle

Can you tell us if the feedback on Ember and Vauban will be discussed by the dev team (dev stream, official post, ...) anytime soon(tm) ?

They've been quick enough to "readjust" Gauss after his release, I hope we'll see something similar for Ember and Vauban :-)

[MrFrog9]

2 hours ago, Tatann said:

Hi @[DE]Danielle

Can you tell us if the feedback on Ember and Vauban will be discussed by the dev team (dev stream, official post, ...) anytime soon(tm) ?

They've been quick enough to "readjust" Gauss after his release, I hope we'll see something similar for Ember and Vauban :-)

Considering that Gauss's "readjustment" involved the battery mechanic being trivialised and Gauss becoming invulnerable to most damage for a solid half of Redline's duration, I really hope not.

[Raqiya]

10 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

Vector Pad, by contrast, does in fact let you move from place to place objectively faster than you could without or prevent enemies from moving through choke points and/or speed them towards a defense objective, and is in particular useful for quickly moving between Interception towers. I'm not saying the move is perfect -- the base speed boost is indeed pathetic (you need to at least slot in Intensify for it to be meaningful esp. considering the cast time) and I really don't get why Minelayer in general was given a casting animation -- but scrapping a really unique ability entirely instead of just polishing it so it works better seems excessive to me.

I respect your opinion but it still doesn't convince me that it should be kept. 

-It has Tailwind(Zephyr) syndrome meaning you can't control its output leading you to crash into walls and be stuck to it.
-Its possible to effectively use to speed through a mission due to placement speed/travel time and clunky placement.
-Bastilee, Vortex and tether grenade already exists they all hold down choke/defence points and they're all far easier to use.
-Speeding up enemies is neat but again its too awkward to use and doesn't really help much unless its on a massive scale such as speedva.
-there's only a few interception maps where it is somewhat useful and pretty much in any other gamemode its not useful.

I don't see why we should have this as a ability when we could have anything else to make him more survivable for when enemies can't be CC'd

[alseltas]

2 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

Considering that Gauss's "readjustment" involved the battery mechanic being trivialised and Gauss becoming invulnerable to most damage for a solid half of Redline's duration, I really hope not.

His battery maintenance is still a thing, and in fact he is still squishy to elements some deadly enemies use(which is why many Gauss suddenly die in high level missions), but those are not to discuss here. I really hope the next Vauban adjustment is more than Gauss's one.

[(XBOX)Duke DEFCON]

I am on xbox, so I haven't seen the Ember rework yet, but I'm going to miss World on Fire.

I'd rather that they made the new immolate, a toggled skill like World on Fire, so that it's constantly shunting the heat as you near max gage. The perks are that it could make managing the heat gage easier, and constantly strip enemies of armor while lighting them on fire... but like other toggled abilities, will use your power and not allow you to benefit from Energizing Dash or Energy Siphon while active.

This has the added unique management dynamic since the ability gives damage reduction, but constantly reduces your gage, you are encouraged to spend energy on the other skills that ignite enemies to increase the gage. The trick will be to find a fine balance between the shunting of your gage and trying to build it while the skill is active depending on your energy levels and the situation.

Also, this concept will add value to team play, since Embers will constantly need energy from outside sources, like energy orbs that Hildryn and Khora generate, and Arcane Energize to boost the effect. Energy Vamping trinity would be an embers best friend! The constant replacement of energy while in their Toggled immolate would allow them to spam a bunch of other skills to keep their gage up and truly light the whole world on fire.

[TeaHawk]

Maybe I'm mistaking, but 2nd ability is quite broken. Its energy consumption after reaching the cap is not linear. It's getting faster and faster and swallow all energy in a second. It's purely uncontrollable as after casting 3 and dropping it to minimum, it gets to the cap faster and faster each time. I end up with instantly getting the cap whithout even casting anything. It's unreliable and impossible to manage. Maybe I'm mistaking, but could you explain how am I supposed to manage this. Even with 2 arcane energize I have all my energy wasted in a matter of milliseconds with 2. I can't use it at all.

[Zera]

Hey there!
I wanted to post my ideas to improve upon the current Vauban rework a lot more and address flaws that annoy me and perhaps others aswell. Since im not used to writing in a Forum and im more of a discord-esque person, excuse my lack of formatting.

General Changes: Make all abilities one-handed again and increase the casting speed to match the old one. A lot of previous vauban lovers/mains loved that he wasnt stuck or restricted in his movement while casting abilities and that they were fairly fast so the current problem is due to him not having a survivability buff(to which i will come soon), hes having huge problems moving fast and dropping bastilles due to the new longer casting/deployment time, making him vulnerable in the time he is casting it to enemy fire.

Tesla Nervos: Increase speed of rollers substantially to match enemy rollers, add AI so rollers attack to 4 different targets provided there are 4 targets alive, otherwise stack onto the last remaining enemy(ies). Also please add a bigger effect onto enemies that are stunned(including energy color), area of effect stunchance (think ferrox altfire discharge) and the augment(could just be volt's discharge beams) so its easier to see what enemy is affected. Currently i have to guess which ones it wherever the damage number is ticking, which breaks when theres a vortex however.

Mine Layer:
Tether Coil: Add max. targets of 5 but can only hold up to 2 at one time.
Flechette Orb: reduce damage by half and add damage scaling via either primary or secondary weapon mods akin to what vaporize got.
Vector Pad: fine really, only add some faster deployment time (probably general casting time is fine?)so u arent constantly forced out of sprinting to even get the speed.
Overdriver: add a damage reduction equal to the damage buff that caps at 50%. this would greatly improve his survivability which is his biggest flaw aside from the 1000 armor from bastille which dont seem to do all too much(imo).
Minelayer as it currently stands is/should be a high efford high reward ability, because ideally u should buff a few teammates, use tether coil to grab more enemies into some place, put down a flechette orb to deny and kill enemies from one path and use vector pads to move fast to another location as a team. So if you would only use overdriver, you'd sacrifice all other 3 abilities in stead and i think that is a fair trade.

Photon Strike: just make it more clear how the damage of it works ingame, its quite confusing atm. (damage x enemies = final damage?)

Bastille + Vortex: Increase base duration from 15 to 18 seconds, remove bastille automatically converting into a vortex on expiring. Add a new mechanic akin to wisps reservior teleports so u can safely choose which to collapse from range.
if not targetting a bastille and tapping: casting bastille
if not targetting a bastille and holding the ability: casting vortex
If targetting a bastille and tapping: convert targetted bastille into vortex
if targetting a bastille and holding: convert all bastilles into vortexes.

This could utilize wisps reservoir target mechanic more and give vauban players a lot more choice in how they want to use their 4th ability.
I hope that these ideas will be taken into consideration because the few biggest problems for me and most vauban players right now are his longer casting speed,
lack of survivability, slow movement of tesla nervos and that you can not cast a vortex while a bastille is up.

 

 

[Costanzafaust]

Here's some more Vauban feedback after spending some more time with him.

Vauban feels much more fun to play than before, but still squishy and slow to get moves off.  I can solo some small map high-level defense, mid-level interception without much trouble.  But on the Void Mobile Defense, which should be in Vauban's wheelhouse, I still struggle to survive and protect the objective.

His base stats still could use a slight boost. His look and speed suggest as much.  Animations are still a little on the slow side.  This guy doesn't really have room for Natural Talent on top of all everything else you need to mod for.

Teslas - Just let quick cast summon all 4.  Vauban has too many charge abilities.  Make the AI a little better about targeting.

Minelayer - Combine Overdriver with flechette so it gives everyone near the mine a damage buff.  Let tether target scale with ability strength. Make vector faster to deploy, with better steering and lingering speed buff.

Photon Strike - I really like the new quick cast.  However, I would not be opposed to adding charge throw for longer range.

Bastile : After playing around with it more, I would prefer that bastille not automatically collapse into vortex, and just make it so quick cast is cage, charge cast is vortex.  Repelling Bastille augment is not very good compared to the others.  

[Azrael_V]

I'm really enjoying the Vauban rework. He still has a few issues though.

He's extremely squishy for higher level missions eg Kuva Flood and Sortie 3. Mobile defence is especially brutal and you're basically a sitting duck or have to be in operator mode most of the time. I feel his base armor needs to be adjusted to at least 300 and/or he needs a defensive ability of some kind. It could be something similar to Mesa's Shattershield but implemented in terms of Vauban's Tech prowess. This would definitely help against Bombards and such. 

Tesla Nervos doesn't scale well at all. This is essentially Vauban's first line of defence but the rollers burn through their charges too quickly during high level matches.The damage also fizzles out pretty quickly especially against heavy units. This ability could use an overall buff. Having the number of charges based on Duration and not Power Strength is also not helping his kit in terms of modding. Have the ability depend on Power Strength for the charges and give the stun duration a static value if need be. 

 

[Titan0429]

Have to admit you RUINED Ember Prime when you took away the World on Fire mod. And the Ring of Fire mod is garbage now too. Pure junk

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Ember

I've been having fun playing around with the Ember rework in Fissures, Floods and Lich/Thrall missions. It seems good so far, though energy problems are somewhat frequent, even with 160% efficiency, Exothermic, and Arcane Energize.

For reference, here is my current build:

Spoiler

Overview:

• Passive - helps boost damage against groups of tougher/higher level enemies, seems good enough
• Fireball - doesn't really do much in comparison to Inferno. It does add less to the heat meter ramp up, but has to be spammed to build combo to deal good damage.
• Immolation - the damage reduction is really good, and a very welcome addition to Ember's kit
• Fireblast - much faster cast animation and the addition of armor strip is brilliant
• Inferno - solid damage, even in Floods and rank 4/5 Lich missions, visuals and audio are stunning too

Issues:

• Fireball lacks damage without combo, and is outclassed by Inferno
• Energy issues from Immolation's drain + Fireblast

Suggestions:

Fireball

1) Add a heat damage multiplier debuff to Fireball (aka Accelerant), that increases the damage affected enemies take from Heat damage to 2x (affected by strength).

This would:

• add a reason to cast her 1 and 4 in combination
• give Ember a targeted damage amplifier against heavier units
• re-introduce a reason to use Heat modded weapons with Ember
• increase the usefulness of Fireball Frenzy

(Extra note: if the heat damage -> heat proc damage double dips like Damage to Faction mods do, it might need to be a lower multiplier of something like 1.6x)

2) Increase the blast radius charge up from 2.0 - 2.4m to 2.0 - 3.0m

Reasoning: For doubled energy cost, the increase in blast radius is fairly small, even with the damage increase from full Immolation.

 

Immolation/Fireblast

Between the energy drain of Immolation (after about 6-10s of ramp up), and the need to cast Fireblast to keep said energy drain at bay, Immolation ends up making Ember's kit quite energy intensive to keep up.

For this, I have two different suggestions:

1a) Reduce the base cost of Fireblast from 75 to 50, and have the cost scale down based on the heat of Immolation, ranging from 50 at empty to 12.5 at full.

• This reduces the overall energy consumption of Immolation by reducing the cost to reset the drain ramp-up, and the cast cost of Fireblast in general
• An alternative here would be reducing the rate at which the drain of Immolation ramps up, maybe even the addition of a delay before the drain starts

1b) Remove the energy cost of Fireblast entirely, and have it cost 35% (up from 20%) Immolation gauge to cast it (unaffected by efficiency mods).

• This would turn Fireblast into more of a "byproduct" of casting 1 and 4 with Immolation active, with the energy cost being replaced with a larger drop in damage reduction and Immolation buff strength (charge speed/damage of 1, armor strip of 3)

 

Overall, the rework has been pretty good!

The only real issue is the energy consumption of 2 and 3, and Fireball being of limited usefulness, given Inferno.