Jump to content
[DE]Danielle

(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

Recommended Posts

On 2019-10-31 at 7:52 PM, SkeletonJehova said:

New vauban just kinda sucks.

Tesla nervos doesn't really do anything, I ran several missions and always casted it first. I'd see my 4 balls latch to something, stun them for a bit, do a little AoE explosion and then I didn't see them after that. Couldn't recast either as it said I still had 4 nervos.

Minelayer feels entirely useless aside from flechette mine, which is kind of just an "oh S#&$" button and overdriver

THE CAST TIMES. THE ANIMATIONS. I almost never want to use Bastille or Photon Strike just because it takes vauban, such a squishy frame, and forces him to stand around and take fire to do either an AoE attack that relies on enemies not moving in the 40 years it takes you to cast the ability or bastille/vortex. Even with a maxed natural talent on him it still feels absurdly slow

It's to the point with his cast times that flechette mine is probably more useful than photon strike, because you can throw that while shooting and it takes effect before everything moves away.

From a stat perspective it's confusing what you even want to build him for. Go into strength for photon strike? Well you want the duration for Bastille and his mines. Go into duration for bastille and the mines? Well you need strength to get the most out of photon strike, nervos and the flechette mine. Then range is important on his 3 and 4, leaving you with three things you want ALONGSIDE cast time

Also, he is not endgame viable, he has no damage reduction ability, an lvl 60 enemy can 1 shot him easy.

In exterminate, rescue, assault and other types of missions that are fast-paced, Vauban Bastille buff is useless, making him easy to kill, unless you give him a Rage+Primed Flow+Quick Thinking build.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if you guys are still reading this thread for feedback, but I've finally spent several hours playing as Vauban and he seems fine. He does a ton of damage, he has good CC and utility. The only thing is he is pretty squishy. I know you can improve his survivaibility by gaining 1,000 armor by standing inside bastille, and you have 10 seconds to recast bastille to maintain the buff, so that's alright. Just a bit tricky sometimes.

In regards to some feedback I've seen from other players - the animation speed was fine before. I don't think you needed to speed it up. But whatever, you've done it now, so I can understand if you're hesitant to bring it back to the slower animation speed.

I have seen a lot of people complain about his damage, especially the little spike balls. Those things do a TON of damage. I don't know why people are complaining about it. I just finished a mission where someone magnetized the lich, I dropped a few of those spikey ball things near it and the lich was covered in so many darts that it looked like pinhead.

Image result for pinhead"

I came out with over 60% of the teams damage and the vast majority of my damage was done with abilities. 

He DESTROYS infested. Just drop the vortex and throw some little spikey balls into there. Boom, instant meat-grinder. You can even have 4 going all at once to cover 4 different entrances. 

 

He's fine. Please don't cave in to the complaints about this and that. The only thing I see being a weakness with him is his survivability - holy smokes he can go down fast. I ran some arbitrations with him and went down surprisingly quick sometimes. But then again I'm accustomed to playing super tanky frames.. I think it's a fine tradeoff. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the Vauban rework. I haven't touched Grendel because I don't think it's worth my time investment to build anymore warframes unless they are primed variants. 

*edit* oh yeah one more thing. His speed boost ability has been super "meh" to me but I think that's okay. It's okay to have a weak ability on a frame that has so many other good abilities. I mean you guys wrapped ...what 8 different abilities into him? He's fine. Having 1 ability that's just for the memes when you have 7 other serviceable abilities seems fair to me.

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
  • Haha 4
  • Woah 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Vauban: I went from not playing him at all to playing him. I'm enjoying the rework thoroughly. He has one serious weakness though: high level enemy fire. My personal litmus test for any frame is the Level 5 POE and Fortuna. Its not fun when a AOE attack blows you out of the water. Bombards etc. Most other frames like Gauss I use Adaptation for damage mitigation. It helps. With Vauban he has no room for it. How about an ability that works in a similar manner or an ability like Mesa's Shattershield. Well at this point any tankiness would be welcome.

Edited by Azrael_V
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Not sure if you guys are still reading this thread for feedback, but I've finally spent several hours playing as Vauban and he seems fine. He does a ton of damage, he has good CC and utility. The only thing is he is pretty squishy. I know you can improve his survivaibility by gaining 1,000 armor by standing inside bastille, and you have 10 seconds to recast bastille to maintain the buff, so that's alright. Just a bit tricky sometimes.

In regards to some feedback I've seen from other players - the animation speed was fine before. I don't think you needed to speed it up. But whatever, you've done it now, so I can understand if you're hesitant to bring it back to the slower animation speed.

I have seen a lot of people complain about his damage, especially the little spike balls. Those things do a TON of damage. I don't know why people are complaining about it. I just finished a mission where someone magnetized the lich, I dropped a few of those spikey ball things near it and the lich was covered in so many darts that it looked like pinhead.

Image result for pinhead"

I came out with over 60% of the teams damage and the vast majority of my damage was done with abilities. 

He DESTROYS infested. Just drop the vortex and throw some little spikey balls into there. Boom, instant meat-grinder. You can even have 4 going all at once to cover 4 different entrances. 

 

He's fine. Please don't cave in to the complaints about this and that. The only thing I see being a weakness with him is his survivability - holy smokes he can go down fast. I ran some arbitrations with him and went down surprisingly quick sometimes. But then again I'm accustomed to playing super tanky frames.. I think it's a fine tradeoff. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the Vauban rework. I haven't touched Grendel because I don't think it's worth my time investment to build anymore warframes unless they are primed variants. 

*edit* oh yeah one more thing. His speed boost ability has been super "meh" to me but I think that's okay. It's okay to have a weak ability on a frame that has so many other good abilities. I mean you guys wrapped ...what 8 different abilities into him? He's fine. Having 1 ability that's just for the memes when you have 7 other serviceable abilities seems fair to me.

The Flechette Orb(s) do not do a ton of damage, unless you're farming level 10-20s. And if that's the case, an unmodded pistol will be best for faster clear. Mesa 4 does a TON of damage. At 50+ you begin to see the Orbs down fall as the damage slowly trickles even with damage boost; once again exposing another weakness with his ability. Yes it will do maybe 2.1k damage per needle, but it doesn't scale, even with the 25% passive. Also, once an Infested Ancient is on the field, Flechette Orb will do 1-10 damage. With his Engineer "theme" he could have adapted his abilities to that defense..... maybe not.

He is NOT fine. His kit is exposed in lich runs. There is a frame, Khora, who can hold down a room with the tap of a button, do more damage with her Strangledome, and it does more cc with less work than 5 of Vauban's abilities (Nervos, Flechette Orb, Bastille, Speed Pad on enemies and Tether Coil). This gives her the "freedom" to engage in combat, instead of spending more time setting up, positioning abilities and cycling through them before you have to refresh it again. On top of dealing with a horrible Overdrive throw design, a meme ability that you're clearly fine with, and junky Nervos that cc mobs for 20 damage randomly from afar. Don't forget tether doesn't grab enemies well like Khora's cage, but he is an .... engineer frame? 

The current kit has similar problems to the old. Instead of going that mobile cc route, he remains stationary. Bastille is "effective" when enemies are held for stripping armor and gaining its buff, but, without any type of damage reduction or healing he gets one shotted by a level 2 ranged mob waiting for the armor to scale, and that's it. For a 100 power ability, it's weak and an actual nerf compared to the old spam survive. Don't get me wrong armor strip is wonderful, but useless nothing is inside, and Vauban dies before the armor is completely gone from the enemy making the ability useless. Limbo and Frost still outshines Vauban on Nod Defense. Don't forget that you have to spend more time and energy to set up multiple Tether Coils (2 mobs pulled max) in order to grab ranged mobs, too. Once again a 1 tap ability from Khora makes things smooth and more effective. His Nervos, buff with high Ability Strength and Overdrive, is completely useless. It's actually an annoyance rather than a helpful ability, since it goes out and randomly searches for enemies, while dealing 20 damage per shock with no scaling and no synergy to other abilities; making it useless for stationary and mobile defense. Octavia's Resonator deals more damage, better AI design, and scales. For the augment to work, you have to follow the Nervos and kill mobs held, but you also forgot how weak he is to low - high levels, so getting a kill is a lot more annoying compared to a sim room for testing on stationary targets. Should have been a rolling turret with scaling damage (I wrote some things about this in this forum about combining abilities into others giving his kit more room), but they, "Devs", didn't want the AI to work for you yet we have Octavia's abilities, Khora's pet, the new Wukong AI rework, Umbra Ex, etc. But hey, fun frame.

So, if you had problems with the old kit and think this is good, lawd half mercury. Yes he got new abilities, but he is still weak defensively, spam overdrive to buff a single player when in fact you have to spam it to actually hit that player instead of their pet. But, Wisp and Octavia use 1 ability to buff the WHOLE team. Once again making Vauban work harder for 20% base damage ability that doesn't refresh? Remember, you have to cycle through to use it??? Iron-man kit is way better than Vauban's. You have to run and throw speed pad in front of you, though I don't use it and just bullet jump, just to go.... fast? You have Wisp drop her Haste Reservoir that last longer and is less tedious PLUS you gain other buffs that will keep you alive while on the move or stationary.... but Vauban...?????? I don't get it. Even if the pad were to move enemies forward or away, just get Khora to fill all this work with more reward. So basically we got a useless troll meme ability that could have went to something useful, but is except-able? To be honest, it seems Octavia is more of an Engineer frame than Vauban. All in all his kit has no survivability, still remains stationary, too many similarities to the old, abilities are stretched out making his kit entirely tedious for less reward rather than combing them to other abilities, abilities offer punishment rather than reward, lacks mobility (Rework was suppose to fix that, but I guess that's what Speed pad was for?), lacks synergy, abilities offer less reward for more time used for ability placement compared to other frames whose ability do more for less, scaling damage is horrendous, Bastille for a 4th still provides less, augments are horrible, and I'm sure others can point out what I'm missing. 2.5/10 rework, this is (Yoda).

Edited by Mardomus
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-11-22 at 4:49 PM, Judqment8 said:

Another update and another week and no changes to Vauban. You gave us hope and promises 3 weeks ago for more tweaks to Vauban, but nothing has happened since then.

This was on 26.0.4 patch notes which was 3 weeks ago. How much deeper you have to dive in to make some tweaks for this rework? Heck, even Garuda got buffs in the latest patch. Sure DE got lots on their hands, but I sincerely hope I don't have to wait for months to see some improvements to Vauban's messy kit. Or maybe I'm just too hopeful for my own good, better check back in few years to see if this rework is getting reworked at all...

As somebody who's been here and with Vauban since Update 7.11, don't hold your breath. I have a sneaking suspicion with all the silence that this is the swan song for Vauban, considering this is the first major update and rework he's had in the past...*counts* SIX YEARS!

But enough bile, back to the grind mines for obedient Tenno.

Edited by Dojutrek
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Not sure if you guys are still reading this thread for feedback, but I've finally spent several hours playing as Vauban and he seems fine. He does a ton of damage, he has good CC and utility. The only thing is he is pretty squishy. I know you can improve his survivaibility by gaining 1,000 armor by standing inside bastille, and you have 10 seconds to recast bastille to maintain the buff, so that's alright. Just a bit tricky sometimes.

In regards to some feedback I've seen from other players - the animation speed was fine before. I don't think you needed to speed it up. But whatever, you've done it now, so I can understand if you're hesitant to bring it back to the slower animation speed.

I have seen a lot of people complain about his damage, especially the little spike balls. Those things do a TON of damage. I don't know why people are complaining about it. I just finished a mission where someone magnetized the lich, I dropped a few of those spikey ball things near it and the lich was covered in so many darts that it looked like pinhead.

Image result for pinhead"

I came out with over 60% of the teams damage and the vast majority of my damage was done with abilities. 

He DESTROYS infested. Just drop the vortex and throw some little spikey balls into there. Boom, instant meat-grinder. You can even have 4 going all at once to cover 4 different entrances. 

 

He's fine. Please don't cave in to the complaints about this and that. The only thing I see being a weakness with him is his survivability - holy smokes he can go down fast. I ran some arbitrations with him and went down surprisingly quick sometimes. But then again I'm accustomed to playing super tanky frames.. I think it's a fine tradeoff. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the Vauban rework. I haven't touched Grendel because I don't think it's worth my time investment to build anymore warframes unless they are primed variants. 

*edit* oh yeah one more thing. His speed boost ability has been super "meh" to me but I think that's okay. It's okay to have a weak ability on a frame that has so many other good abilities. I mean you guys wrapped ...what 8 different abilities into him? He's fine. Having 1 ability that's just for the memes when you have 7 other serviceable abilities seems fair to me.

I'm happy that you're having a good time with Vauban. A vast majority of us on this feedback forum are not.

Vauban, as you have pointed out, can be very good in some situations. The buff to the range of his vortex was a huge boon to his general usability. The armor buff, if managed well, is a very welcome benefit. Vauban can be very good and very fun to play for a large portion of the game's content. He is not unusable, but he is comparatively mediocre.

I find your conclusion of "he's fine" troubling because the evidence you provided for his doing "a ton of damage" included an example of Mag's "Magnetize" ability which has been known to shred things regardless of damage input. Further, the fact that you did the majority of a squad's damage in an isolated scenario is anecdotal, and shouldn't be considered.

Yes, he can delete Infested with Vortex and a melee weapon of any decent caliber. He could do that before the rework. The rework, however, removed his "Concuss" grenade, which could negate the issue of overlapping healer auras causing the infested inside the Vortex to be immune to ragdoll, creating a very dangerous cluster of monsters. The same issue applies to corrupted enemies.

You did not mention Tesla Nervos.

You did not mention Overdriver.

You did not mention his inability to CC many enemies that can be easily disabled by other Warframes. (Liches, namely)

You did not mention his inability to participate in (let alone benefit a squad) during Grand Boss fights.

Vauban can do nothing that other Warframes can do significantly better. There is absolutely no reason to choose Vauban other than the enjoyment of his playstyle during standard, low-level mission types. He's fun, we wish he was better.

Please understand that even if you're satisfied with the rework, that does not mean that he is "fine". I already made a post on page 17 of this forum about how Wisp's first ability is better than Vauban's entire kit, numerically and fundamentally. If we could start seeing some additional numbers and versatility in Vauban's kit that come remotely close to those of other Warframes's kits/stats, then the number of us complaining would be far fewer. The fact that a majority of these posts express dissatisfaction with the Vauban rework should be enough evidence to conclude that his rework was unsatisfactory.

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

  • Like 4
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So some time has passed since my last post, and I've both played more with- and as the reworked Ember.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of the opinions I have in my previous post about her rework still stand:
 1) Her 1 (Fireball) - while it scales better - is still way too boring and sub-par to use. Why use fireball when you can just spam 4?
 2) Her 2 (Immolation) ability drains too much energy on full heat, removing any window of opportunity to play around with her kit since you're out of energy before you know it.
 3) Her 3 (Fire Blast) and 4 (Inferno) abilities are just way too simple and 'fire-and-forget', you can just spam them non-stop without any effort and still get rewarded massively for it.

But now I've noticed a new problem with this rework... Or rather, a problem she had in olden times as well:
 4) I find that whenever I see her in one of my games, players are reduced to just spamming 4 everywhere. This is not only very monotonous and non-interactive for the player playing Ember, but more than anything it's incredibly boring for those playing with her in the team as well. I've played a few endless missions and a few sanctuary onslaughts with an Ember in my team, and let me just say, there's nothing quite as boring as watching an Ember bullet jump across the map and press 4 on everything... While I'm just standing there, unable to get any action at all in. I've played Ember myself as well, and I can definitely notice something... Why do anything at all when I can just spam 4 now? Activate your 2 (immolation), then just spam 4 (Inferno) until your heat nears full capacity, then activate 3 (Fire Blast) maybe a few times to prevent complete energy depletion (due to heat build-up). None of this requires any aiming, prep, risk, etc of you at all. It's as simple as bullet-jumping into a room, spam, then bullet jump away again. It gives massive damage rewards too, in addition to a big (or complete) armor reduction and heat procs (that deal DoT and CC) everywhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we've seen this problem before, not only with Ember, but other frames as well. Difference with old Ember was that at a certain point, her World on Fire didn't scale well enough anymore and could barely kill anything efficiently anymore. So we stopped seeing Ember. Other frames had the same problem, like old Saryn ultimate. Luckily, this was fixed in a very nice way by making a lot of the damage scale with the amount of spores present. It still does a lot of damage, you now just have to work a little for it. Nova ultimate is another example of how it can be done a bit better, where it doesn't deal any direct damage, it will only do so when enemies are killed.

But, I will say that this Ember is still a step in the right direction. While there are still a lot of (big) problems with her, she's at least better than her previous iteration.

Edited by Zerathos_Dagon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Acquire_Manatees said:

I'm happy that you're having a good time with Vauban. A vast majority of us on this feedback forum are not.

[Snip]

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

I just want to take a moment to appreciate your thoughtful, respectful, and well written reply. We need more of that on this forum. We need more people to follow examples like this when disagreeing with one another.

 

Anyway, I did a lich hunt from beginning to end using vauban, it took me several hours. I took him to wave 9 on elite sanctuary onslaught. I took him into some longer (25ish minute) requeim relic disruption runs. Some of that was solo but most of it was with other players. I've been using him on high level content and have improved my skill at using him in these "end game" scenarios. I still think he's fine, but he's also not as strong as some other frames. Hildryn can lock down a huge zone, force enemies to drop energy orbs, and tank. So yeah, there are more powerful options. I agree. I am still satisfied with my experience playing as vauban. 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
  • Satisfied 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Il y a 20 heures, Flying_Scorpion a dit :

He's fine. Please don't cave in to the complaints about this and that.

Because of comments like this the game is getting worse.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 3 minutes, Flying_Scorpion a dit :

Ídem.

No, not "idem." 80% of the people who write in this thread agree that Vauban is a disaster and you are asking DE directly not to listen to them.

For my part, I respect and appreciate that you enjoy the new Vauban, but I will not ask DE not to listen to you.

Edited by Awazx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps DE can integrate short surveys into the game. I have a hunch that if a player has a negative experience, that they are more likely to come to the forums and complain, than those who are happy and satisfied with their experience. I believe that is an underlying factor in why there are more complaints than praise in this thread with regards to the vauban and ember rework. 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
  • Haha 1
  • Applause 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive been enjoying ember's rework immensely (especially since a 0 forma ember prime can tank t5 lich missions with EASE (adaptation plus full immolation) and her overall kit is fun to use (apart from fireball, i just never use it and never really have)

my ONLY complaint is that there is NO UPPER LIMIT TO HER 2 ENERGY DRAIN. this means that you HAVE to cast her 3 multiple times to get it to cool down after using her 4 a bunch (I have her built with 175% efficiency and use exothermic for energy gain from her 4). there NEEDS to be an upper limit of no more than double the UI shown drain rate (im my case it is 2.5 energy/sec after full charge before any casting of 4 or 1). OR at the very least add numbers to the UI to indicate that is an ever increasing amount per cast of 1 or 4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

Ive been enjoying ember's rework immensely (especially since a 0 forma ember prime can tank t5 lich missions with EASE (adaptation plus full immolation) and her overall kit is fun to use (apart from fireball, i just never use it and never really have)

my ONLY complaint is that there is NO UPPER LIMIT TO HER 2 ENERGY DRAIN. this means that you HAVE to cast her 3 multiple times to get it to cool down after using her 4 a bunch (I have her built with 175% efficiency and use exothermic for energy gain from her 4). there NEEDS to be an upper limit of no more than double the UI shown drain rate (im my case it is 2.5 energy/sec after full charge before any casting of 4 or 1). OR at the very least add numbers to the UI to indicate that is an ever increasing amount per cast of 1 or 4.

Have you tried turning it off and back on again?

  • Woah 1
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Have you tried turning it off and back on again?

obviously. that still doesnt change the fact that there is no mention of an ever increasing energy drain (not that hard to counteract using rage, but still) to get back up to full quickly you have to do a quick off/on then around 3-4 casts of 1 or 4. its just a ton of management that feels really unnecessary. That doesnt mean i dont like the rework though. I love it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to venture deep into this, since it's a Feedback thread, but if you perform the same type of response/energy;

On 2019-11-23 at 8:31 PM, Flying_Scorpion said:

He's fine. Please don't cave in to the complaints about this and that.

obviously you'll get the same type of energy back. A lot of what people have pointed out about Vauban has been said during the live stream when showing off his abilities, and before the rework till now. They (Devs) wanted us to write out the Feedback once he (Vauban) was released, but we all already knew after seeing it on stream it wasn't going to be great. So, to ask Devs not to cave in on what we got from Vauban's rework is disrespectful especially after writing this; 

4 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I just want to take a moment to appreciate your thoughtful, respectful, and well written reply. We need more of that on this forum. We need more people to follow examples like this when disagreeing with one another.

I think this may have been direct at my post responding to yours, but I saw no disrespect there, but everyone takes Feedback differently, I guess. However, moving on. If you want to discuss this more, I'm willing to do so though in-game message.

Edited by Mardomus
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mardomus said:

I think this may have been direct at my post responding to yours

It took me a few minutes to figure out what you are saying here but I think I get it now. I did not reply to you before, this is your second reply directly to me so I'm guessing you want me to acknowledge you. Hello. To be honest, I have a hard time following your writing. And when I read the following:

 

12 hours ago, Mardomus said:

without any type of damage reduction or healing he gets one shotted by a level 2 ranged mob

I noticed hyperbole in your statement and I don't want to engage with that. Combined with the difficulty I am having with understanding what you are saying, I would prefer to just not say anything at all. Acquire_Manatees speaks a "language" that I feel more comfortable engaging with. I respect the way he speaks, I feel like I understand what he is saying. He seems to stick to the facts, (without using hyperbole or making mountains out of molehills or the opposite). I am tempted to go back to page 17 to read his post there but my time is limited, and farming liches takes a LOT of time. So I'm going to make a little bit more progress on my next lich now. Goodbye 🙂

  • Woah 2
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

It took me a few minutes to figure out what you are saying here but I think I get it now. I did not reply to you before, this is your second reply directly to me so I'm guessing you want me to acknowledge you. Hello. To be honest, I have a hard time following your writing. And when I read the following:

 

I noticed hyperbole in your statement and I don't want to engage with that. Combined with the difficulty I am having with understanding what you are saying, I would prefer to just not say anything at all. Acquire_Manatees speaks a "language" that I feel more comfortable engaging with. I respect the way he speaks, I feel like I understand what he is saying. He seems to stick to the facts, (without using hyperbole or making mountains out of molehills or the opposite). I am tempted to go back to page 17 to read his post there but my time is limited, and farming liches takes a LOT of time. So I'm going to make a little bit more progress on my next lich now. Goodbye 🙂

Well for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to do other things than farming liches, you sure took your time to come here and try to neuter weeks of feedback from other players. So goodbye indeed ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Mardomus said:

The Fet Orbs do not do a ton of damage, unless you farming level 10-20s. And if that's the case, an unmodded pistol will be best for faster clear. Mesa 4 does a ton of damage. At 50+ you begin to see the Orbs down fall as the damage slowly trickles even with damage boost. 

They -do- deal a ton of damage. There's some kind of hidden component of their damage calculations, like they take on one of your weapon's mods, but their needles still do 1K per hit on 140 corrupted heavy gunners, while still oneshotting lvl 60 grineer on a crit. Yes, your weapons are stronger, as all weapons are compared to abilities, but that is the beauty of Flechettes: you can use both at the same time. And Flechettes + gun is always better than just your gun. 

Seriously, Flechettes have become one of the strongest tools in the game somehow. Conditional, sure, but a serious powerhouse.

17 hours ago, Mardomus said:

Instead of going that mobile cc route, he remains stationary

That is good, though. We have other frames for mobile cc, and Vauban doesn't need to be changed into them. Instead, he specialises in locking down multiple areas, off-handed. This makes him a really strong pick for interception, defense, mobile defense, even survival! Not every frame needs to be an exterminate speedrunner. 

 

17 hours ago, Mardomus said:

Yes he got new abilities, but he still weak

There's hardly any frames that make their abilities feel as reliable and solid as new Vauban's. He rocketed up from the worst frame in the game to my new absolute favourite. He's a very solid pick who needs just a bit more polish.

17 hours ago, Mardomus said:

To be honest this rework feels more like a nerf. 

How would that even be possible, now that he has one full additional ability, and minelayer was really harshly buffed? Or did you think old minelayer had literally any good tool in it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ember is ok so far. But Vauban...hu...can only say those animations are cool. the rest, still not worth it to bulid a prime for spending 15 Nitain Extract, 2 Argon Crystals, 7000 Oxium and 9000 Cryotic. plus the prime part including the blue print are all rare, even the prime vault change some of it down to uncommon and common but still those skill are not efficiency enough.

  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

They -do- deal a ton of damage. There's some kind of hidden component of their damage calculations, like they take on one of your weapon's mods, but their needles still do 1K per hit on 140 corrupted heavy gunners, while still oneshotting lvl 60 grineer on a crit. Yes, your weapons are stronger, as all weapons are compared to abilities, but that is the beauty of Flechettes: you can use both at the same time. And Flechettes + gun is always better than just your gun. 

Seriously, Flechettes have become one of the strongest tools in the game somehow. Conditional, sure, but a serious powerhouse.

If you're stacking 4 Flechette Orbs in one spot, yes they will do a good damage. At 183% Strength plus 25% from growing power, and 45% form Overdrive Flechette does 2.1k damage; about. As enemy level increases, the damage remain the same meaning enemies will start walking past them with strong defenses making the Orbs ineffective at higher levels. Flechette is decent to an extent. 

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

That is good, though. We have other frames for mobile cc, and Vauban doesn't need to be changed into them. Instead, he specialises in locking down multiple areas, off-handed. This makes him a really strong pick for interception, defense, mobile defense, even survival! Not every frame needs to be an exterminate speedrunner. 

From what I understand, the rework was to build Vauban up to Warframes current "fast" pace style. If you look at his kit there isn't much movement beside Nervos and the Speed Pad. The rest of his kit remains slow pace, stationary, and setup cycled version as the old kit. Interception, yes just drop Flechette Orb. For Defense drop Fletchette Orb, Overdrive, Bastille, Tehter Coil, Vortex, Speed pad, and refresh, while Khora drops her dome. As levels get higher your energy becomes effected especially if you're running Quick Thinking due to his lack of survival skills. On top of that, you have to refresh a 100 energy ability to keep armor (70 energy at 130 Efficiency), and tether coils while rolling around because you have nothing to heal you unless you use health restore. Mobile Defense, drop Flechette Orb around tunnels or mobbed spawn areas. But, Flechette Orb becomes limited because at higher level content, including mobile defense. Vauban has to setup Bastille, drop 4-6 Tether Coil, maybe 2-3 Flechette Orb, Overdrive, and dodge around to avoid a one shot from a 50+ ranged mob. Once he dies, he has to set that up again defending a nod on top of energy drain from Quick Thinking and spamming cycled abilities. Remember, there are frames that do less and reward more compared to Vaubans stretched out kit. 

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

There's hardly any frames that make their abilities feel as reliable and solid as new Vauban's. He rocketed up from the worst frame in the game to my new absolute favourite. He's a very solid pick who needs just a bit more polish.

I'm glad you view him as your favorite with the current rework, but if you have Frames that can do what Vauban can do with 1-2 abilities from his whole kit and live with better reduction or supportive abilities. Vauban is my most used Warframe. His 1 and 2 needs to be reworked. I would say change his 3 to 4 and 4 to 3 increasing the scaling of Photon Strike for more energy since that's the only ability that has really good synergy with Vortex or other frame group stacking. 

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

How would that even be possible, now that he has one full additional ability, and minelayer was really harshly buffed? Or did you think old minelayer had literally any good tool in it?

To be honest, both Minelayers aren't good. Overdrive buffing "1" player is horrible, and the chances it even hits an ally is 50/50. That could have been a Nervos group buff as long as Nervos remains out. Flechette Orb could have been added into Nervos instead of the status stun. Tether Coil could have been an Augement for Bastille. Speed Pad could have been added into Nervos as a group wide Buff or into the new 2nd ability that could have been more supportive adding a new survival kit for Vauban and allies. Wisps Reservoirs should have been Vauban's Minelayer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

If you're stacking 4 Flechette Orbs in one spot, yes they will do a good damage. At 183% Strength plus 25% from growing power, and 45% form Overdrive Flechette does 2.1k damage; about. As enemy level increases, the damage remain the same meaning enemies will start walking past them with strong defenses making the Orbs ineffective at higher levels. Flechette is decent to an extent. 

No, I'm using 169% strength without overdrive. Flechettes still crit for 1K on level 100 grineer. These things remain relevant for pretty much all content. Having four of them just allows you to utterly crush one area or solidly lock down two. Lower levels or squishier enemies means you can lock down more areas. Again, I don't know what it is or how it works, but the Flechettes do way more damage than just the power strength + overdrive calculation. 

17 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

For Defense drop Fletchette Orb, Overdrive, Bastille, Tehter Coil, Vortex, Speed pad, and refresh

You -really- do not need everything. Flechette can just be dropped into chokepoints to prevent enemies from getting close to the target. If enemies move in through two spots, just drop two Flechettes on either spot and you're done. Vortex isn't needed, Tethers aren't really needed, Vector pad is entirely without use. 

Now, I do have a somewhat energy heavy build with Zenurik + Energize, but I've not had any real energy issues with him. And that's on just Streamline.

19 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

drop 4-6 Tether Coil

You can't drop more than 4 tether coils.

21 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

because you have nothing to heal you unless you use health restore

Run Rejuvenation. It's a small amount of HP regen, but on armour based frames, that small amount becomes valuable. And with Bastille's armour buff, Vauban does become an armour frame.

22 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

you have Frames that can do what Vauban can do with 1-2 abilities from his whole kit and live with better reduction or supportive abilities.

And we also need to realise that frames like Inaros, Mess and Saryn are -broken- and not a good basis to work off of. ALL frames are godawful when lined up against those. Do not compare frames amongst each other but judge them next to the content they are meant for. Vauban is bad in large, open areas and somewhat underwhelming when you are on the move. But for any kind of point-defense, which Warframe does have quite a bit of, he is -amazing-. I don't care that Saryn is stronger and easier, Vauban is still -good-. 

24 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

To be honest, both Minelayers aren't good. Overdrive buffing "1" player is horrible, and the chances it even hits an ally is 50/50. That could have been a Nervos group buff as long as Nervos remains out. Flechette Orb could have been added into Nervos instead of the status stun. Tether Coil could have been an Augement for Bastille. Speed Pad could have been added into Nervos as a group wide Buff or into the new 2nd ability that could have been more supportive adding a new survival kit for Vauban and allies. Wisps Reservoirs should have been Vauban's Minelayer.

What Vauban actually needs...

1) Tether coil needs to simply teleport the two enemies farthest from it onto itself every 3 seconds. The pull system isn't working due to a new elasticity format not providing sufficient pull, and since it remains attached to the enemy, it has trouble synergising with Bastille. If it simply teleported enemies to itself, it'd snag them into Bastille, which works to augment its range.

2) Minelayer needs a control scheme improvement. Either Vector pad gets deleted and Minelayer turns into a toggle that replaces 1, 3 and 4, or Minelayer becomes a sort of drop-down menu. Press 2, then 1 to immediately drop a tether. 2, 2 again for Flechette, 2, 3 for Vector, 2, 4 for Overdriver. This allows quicker and more controlled deployment of the full arsenal.

2a) If the second control scheme is adopted, Vector pad needs to be replaced by a useful ability or reworked.

3) Bastille's armour buff duration needs to be doubled. It is too short for its conditional nature.

In spite of all of this, however, Vauban is doing a lot of work. He's squishy, yes, but Bastille does counter that. While he has no big map-wipe, the Flechettes, if placed well, do an awful lot of work. Tesla Banked Nervos are a fantastic DPS booster, and he's still got the awesome control he's always had. Altogether, he is much more of a force to be reckoned with and I feel comfortable bringing him onto just about any mission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First i wanna say i absolutely enjoy the new playstyle for Ember, it's really satisfying to drop inferno and just wipe the floor with groups either because they die outright or because they lose so much armor from it that my ignis just mops up after (or you know more infernos) and are only a few issues i see with the new design.

1: While fireblast is a useful tool and i do use it i don't use it for its intended function. The idea is to weave blast in with inferno to balance your heat out BUT the issue is that it  doesn't slow down the heat build up, IE it just keeps climbing back up to 90% in seconds and while it does reduce heat, it's FAR more efficient to turn your 2 off, and back on and reset your heat back to 0 and start spamming 4 again.

2: Fireball is still pretty useless over all, is no real reason to use it it just doesn't do much, and is generally a waste of energy.

Solutions

1:FireBlast either needs to RESET your heat, back to 0 and reset your heat generation per tick back to 0 or, there needs to be some sort of benefit to using it outside of just resetting your heat. I think a better idea for it would be to have it add damage to your next inferno based on how much heat you vent. so Venting at 90% will make your next inferno hit that much harder but you lose out on your damage reduction entirely.

2: I think immolation should work in reverse of the way it does now, starting at 90% damage reduction baseline and slowly melting your armor away, as you gain heat and adding damage as you ramp up your heat. A Max heat you would have a substantial boost to power but, also an increase to power consumed as you bleed power but should be able to obliterate everything around you. Ember should be a glass canon, of sorts i dont think making her tanky was a great solution. That's not to say she shouldn't have some form of survivability, but i think it should come from enemies being you know DEAD.

3: Fireball needs to work like the ogris augument, throw out a fireball have it explode on impact and do minor damage COVER an area in a patch of fire, so you can ignite doorways, and spawn points for  a low cost. The damage shouldn't be high MAIN idea is that it is used to spread fire debuffs. Maybe have fireball strip more armor if enemy is effected by inferno, or have inform strip more armor if the enemy is effected by fireballs fireproc something along those lines.

Small changes would do a world of good, i don't mind the back and forth balance play of ember i rather like it i just find myself not really balancing as much as refreshing immolation for more 4 spam as it's more efficient. My thoughts from what i've played of her, and how i'd like to see her change going forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

No, I'm using 169% strength without overdrive. Flechettes still crit for 1K on level 100 grineer. These things remain relevant for pretty much all content. Having four of them just allows you to utterly crush one area or solidly lock down two. Lower levels or squishier enemies means you can lock down more areas. Again, I don't know what it is or how it works, but the Flechettes do way more damage than just the power strength + overdrive calculation. 

 

Not sure what it is, but from my usage what I wrote above are the numbers I got. It may be broken, who knows. 

28 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

You -really- do not need everything. Flechette can just be dropped into chokepoints to prevent enemies from getting close to the target. If enemies move in through two spots, just drop two Flechettes on either spot and you're done. Vortex isn't needed, Tethers aren't really needed, Vector pad is entirely without use. 

Now, I do have a somewhat energy heavy build with Zenurik + Energize, but I've not had any real energy issues with him. And that's on just Streamline.

This depends on the level of Defense, as I wrote above. Plus, you're using just 1/9 abilities for said content that alone tells you about his other abilities. Since Defense has no time limit, of course Flechette Orb works at check points, but that would be another Survival AFK. What I wrote is the process of using almost all his abilities, given that's what DE wants. Sadly in survival after 30-40 minutes Flechette Orb will take longer to kill, alone, unless you're using other abilities and weapons

37 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

You -really- do not need everything. Flechette can just be dropped into chokepoints to prevent enemies from getting close to the target. If enemies move in through two spots, just drop two Flechettes on either spot and you're done. Vortex isn't needed, Tethers aren't really needed, Vector pad is entirely without use. 

Now, I do have a somewhat energy heavy build with Zenurik + Energize, but I've not had any real energy issues with him. And that's on just Streamline.

Let it be 1-4 it's still tedious work for what another frame does for 1 ability.

37 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Run Rejuvenation. It's a small amount of HP regen, but on armour based frames, that small amount becomes valuable. And with Bastille's armour buff, Vauban does become an armour frame.

Yes, along with Quick Thinking, and Rage/Hunter still limiting him to builds. The Bastille armor buff works if you can survive enemy damage trying to get them into Bastille, wait for the buff, and drop tether. Plus the duration is very low for the buff. Having Quick Thinking still has a higher chance or draining energy leaving you starved, but chances of Survival is high. 

41 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Run Rejuvenation. It's a small amount of HP regen, but on armour based frames, that small amount becomes valuable. And with Bastille's armour buff, Vauban does become an armour frame.

Actually I'm not talking about Inaros and Saryn. I'm aiming to Wisp, Frost, Limbo, Khora, Octavia, etc. I explained Khora and Octavia in my previous posts. 

43 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

What Vauban actually needs...

1) Tether coil needs to simply teleport the two enemies farthest from it onto itself every 3 seconds. The pull system isn't working due to a new elasticity format not providing sufficient pull, and since it remains attached to the enemy, it has trouble synergising with Bastille. If it simply teleported enemies to itself, it'd snag them into Bastille, which works to augment its range.

2) Minelayer needs a control scheme improvement. Either Vector pad gets deleted and Minelayer turns into a toggle that replaces 1, 3 and 4, or Minelayer becomes a sort of drop-down menu. Press 2, then 1 to immediately drop a tether. 2, 2 again for Flechette, 2, 3 for Vector, 2, 4 for Overdriver. This allows quicker and more controlled deployment of the full arsenal.

2a) If the second control scheme is adopted, Vector pad needs to be replaced by a useful ability or reworked.

3) Bastille's armour buff duration needs to be doubled. It is too short for its conditional nature.

In spite of all of this, however, Vauban is doing a lot of work. He's squishy, yes, but Bastille does counter that. While he has no big map-wipe, the Flechettes, if placed well, do an awful lot of work. Tesla Banked Nervos are a fantastic DPS booster, and he's still got the awesome control he's always had. Altogether, he is much more of a force to be reckoned with and I feel comfortable bringing him onto just about any mission.

I rather not have teleportation for the Tether Coil. Minelayer still seems to have problem being a stretched kit even with a different cycle setup. I agree on Bastille Armor, and would like it to have 20% reflection of enemy attacks for a 4th ability. The other things, I already wrote about it, but if it works for you, "shrug". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

Yes, along with Quick Thinking, and Rage/Hunter still limiting him to builds. The Bastille armor buff works if you can survive enemy damage trying to get them into Bastille, wait for the buff, and drop tether. Plus the duration is very low for the buff. Having Quick Thinking still has a higher chance or draining energy leaving you starved, but chances of Survival is high. 

I don't use Quick Thinking or Rage, either. Just Primed Vigour. Bastille has to do the heavy lifting, and you're absolutely right that the duration is too low. I think that is something that everyone can agree on and I hope DE will address this.

36 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

Actually I'm not talking about Inaros and Saryn. I'm aiming to Wisp, Frost, Limbo, Khora, Octavia, etc. I explained Khora and Octavia in my previous posts. 

I don't think Flechettes are properly comparable. Khora's strangledome is moderately close, but the Flechettes can cover four different angles, and they're only one quarter of an ability as opposed to an entire ultimate. Flechettes are also actually immune to nullifiers -and- will actively break them down. Most others with off-handed continuous damage cannot cover as much space and can't rely on them as much as Vauban can.

38 minutes ago, Mardomus said:

I rather not have teleportation for the Tether Coil. Minelayer still seems to have problem being a stretched kit even with a different cycle setup. I agree on Bastille Armor, and would like it to have 20% reflection of enemy attacks for a 4th ability. The other things, I already wrote about it, but if it works for you, "shrug". 

Can you explain why you wouldn't want the tether teleport? I've tried to use Tethers, but they, along with Vortex, do not possess enough pull strength to actually do their job. And if they do, they can't work with Vortex or Bastille because the Tether overrides their CC. 

Minelayer being a stretched kit is a thing, but I don't think that's a bad thing. We couldn't have Flechettes -and- Overdriver without it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...