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(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

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1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

No, I'm using 169% strength without overdrive. Flechettes still crit for 1K on level 100 grineer. These things remain relevant for pretty much all content. Having four of them just allows you to utterly crush one area or solidly lock down two. Lower levels or squishier enemies means you can lock down more areas. Again, I don't know what it is or how it works, but the Flechettes do way more damage than just the power strength + overdrive calculation. 

You -really- do not need everything. Flechette can just be dropped into chokepoints to prevent enemies from getting close to the target. If enemies move in through two spots, just drop two Flechettes on either spot and you're done. Vortex isn't needed, Tethers aren't really needed, Vector pad is entirely without use. 

Now, I do have a somewhat energy heavy build with Zenurik + Energize, but I've not had any real energy issues with him. And that's on just Streamline.

You can't drop more than 4 tether coils.

Run Rejuvenation. It's a small amount of HP regen, but on armour based frames, that small amount becomes valuable. And with Bastille's armour buff, Vauban does become an armour frame.

And we also need to realise that frames like Inaros, Mess and Saryn are -broken- and not a good basis to work off of. ALL frames are godawful when lined up against those. Do not compare frames amongst each other but judge them next to the content they are meant for. Vauban is bad in large, open areas and somewhat underwhelming when you are on the move. But for any kind of point-defense, which Warframe does have quite a bit of, he is -amazing-. I don't care that Saryn is stronger and easier, Vauban is still -good-. 

What Vauban actually needs...

1) Tether coil needs to simply teleport the two enemies farthest from it onto itself every 3 seconds. The pull system isn't working due to a new elasticity format not providing sufficient pull, and since it remains attached to the enemy, it has trouble synergising with Bastille. If it simply teleported enemies to itself, it'd snag them into Bastille, which works to augment its range.

2) Minelayer needs a control scheme improvement. Either Vector pad gets deleted and Minelayer turns into a toggle that replaces 1, 3 and 4, or Minelayer becomes a sort of drop-down menu. Press 2, then 1 to immediately drop a tether. 2, 2 again for Flechette, 2, 3 for Vector, 2, 4 for Overdriver. This allows quicker and more controlled deployment of the full arsenal.

2a) If the second control scheme is adopted, Vector pad needs to be replaced by a useful ability or reworked.

3) Bastille's armour buff duration needs to be doubled. It is too short for its conditional nature.

In spite of all of this, however, Vauban is doing a lot of work. He's squishy, yes, but Bastille does counter that. While he has no big map-wipe, the Flechettes, if placed well, do an awful lot of work. Tesla Banked Nervos are a fantastic DPS booster, and he's still got the awesome control he's always had. Altogether, he is much more of a force to be reckoned with and I feel comfortable bringing him onto just about any mission.

I'll consider Vauban an armored frame when the armor buff from Bastille doesn't take 10 second to be maxed (if your allies doesn't kill the enemies in Bastille first) and if its base duration is buffed to 30 seconds like Wisp motes

Right now it's to situational and high maintenance to be a permanent buff, so it doesn't really make Vauban an armored frame imho 

As usual, a simple tweak to numbers could easily make him bearable survivability wise, without making him a tank god

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Regarding Vauban I currently play I noticed that the Telsa Nervos do not work properly.

Example on Earth in Coba the Nervos end up very quickly locked in an element of the ground. They end up in a circle on one of the platforms next to the defense zone and they end up not even attack enemies in range.

Another problem Telsa bank does not seem to work.

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Has anyone tested Vauban's armor buff from Bastille with Rhino/Frost ?

I wonder if it buffs Iron Skin (or Snowglobe) upon casting. At least if Vauban remains squishy, it could make him best bud with Rhino (in return Rhino's Roar could be nice on Flechette, and he can revive Vauban anytime an enemy sneezes on him ^^)

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I'm really mixed on how Ember plays. As someone that enjoys guns more than warframe powers, the damage reduction from the Overheat(or whatever it's called) is pretty nice. It's almost too strong unless you're going for some seriously high level enemies. It even passively builds very slowly if you aren't using her skills. This gives you a long time before you have to vent heat with Fire Blast(is it still called Fire Blast?). I'm actually pretty surprised how much heat is vented, though. It seems extreme. At least, it does until you start using her abilities....

However, if you want to engage with any of her abilities, the heat gauge goes through the roof. This is where I start to dislike the changes quite a bit. Casting abilities causes the heat gauge to max out and cost energy. Using her energy, causes her to lose more energy. How do you stop the energy loss? Use more energy with Fire Blast. It's pretty ridiculous just how much energy you can burn with Ember, no pun intended. I tried playing without using Energizing Dash from Zenurik and it was basically impossible. Energy pads were not consumed either. I felt extremely handicapped. I absolutely hate playing anything resembling this style and ability spam. It is micromanagement annoyance.

The last thing I don't like so much is the fire effects on Ember herself as the heat gauge increases. This gets noticeably more intrusive as it maxes out. Some people like to see their fashion at all times. Some people like to see their warframe period. Maybe this is just me.

I will say that the replacement for World on Autoplay is very welcome. It feels extremely satisfying to explode a room full of enemies. The casting speed increase on Fireball is just awesome, too. Outside that, I'm not really won over. Fire is my favorite element and it just doesn't suit my style in this game unfortunately. It's not bad necessarily, it's just not for me. That's okay, though. Not everything will be.

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7 minutes ago, Balder45 said:

Regarding Vauban I currently play I noticed that the Telsa Nervos do not work properly.

Example on Earth in Coba the Nervos end up very quickly locked in an element of the ground. They end up in a circle on one of the platforms next to the defense zone and they end up not even attack enemies in range.

Another problem Telsa bank does not seem to work.

I've had trouble seing Tesla Bank work off host too. I'm almost never hosting cause I play with a friend with a better connection, and I barely see it works so I use Repelling Bastille instead (or Primed Vigor if higher content).

Concerning the Nervos(es ?), I just recast them every time I'm on the move (Mobile Defense, even Interception) but I agree this shouldn't be a necessity for an ability with infinite duration (thanks DE btw, not being sarcastic). 

I've suggested earlier that they should teleport back to you whenever you're at some distance (affinity range / 50m seems alright), cause casting an ability with 25 charges (for my build cause you need duration on Vauban) but getting just a few of these charges before you need to recast is frustrating.

Or they could go the other way and make increased duration increase the frequency of the charge, dealing faster "damage" (against level 30 corpus ^^) and proc'ing more frequently (since we don't deserve a 100% proc chance), but I'm sure some players would complain it would reduce the Nervos lifespan (which seems paradoxical)

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3 hours ago, ATL4SPLU2 said:

Ember is ok so far. But Vauban...hu...can only say those animations are cool. the rest, still not worth it to bulid a prime for spending 15 Nitain Extract, 2 Argon Crystals, 7000 Oxium and 9000 Cryotic. plus the prime part including the blue print are all rare, even the prime vault change some of it down to uncommon and common but still those skill are not efficiency enough.

Oxium Prime! At least it isn't the Hema, right? I respect your position, and I agree that Vauban doesn't have a very good Oxium/DPS ratio. However, if the Nitain cost were removed, I'd be happy to farm 50,000 Oxium in its place. I think that's an opinion topic for a new thread, but I couldn't resist.

Thank you for your patience,

-Manatees

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40 minutes ago, schilds said:

Vauban was already best buds with Frost due to Globe + Bastille combo.

How that ? Never seen in action, is it globe

to block ranged weapon damage and bastille to prevent melee enemies to enter the globe ?

Sounds a bit overkill imho since you can sit in the globe and shoot/melee incoming enemies

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I'm ok with people being "satisfied" with reworks... but for ther love of God DO NOT try to discredit everyone else who is not happy (the majority of us). It's extremely disrespectful to everyone who has put time into this thread.  

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14 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

I just want to take a moment to appreciate your thoughtful, respectful, and well written reply. We need more of that on this forum. We need more people to follow examples like this when disagreeing with one another.

 

Anyway, I did a lich hunt from beginning to end using vauban, it took me several hours. I took him to wave 9 on elite sanctuary onslaught. I took him into some longer (25ish minute) requeim relic disruption runs. Some of that was solo but most of it was with other players. I've been using him on high level content and have improved my skill at using him in these "end game" scenarios. I still think he's fine, but he's also not as strong as some other frames. Hildryn can lock down a huge zone, force enemies to drop energy orbs, and tank. So yeah, there are more powerful options. I agree. I am still satisfied with my experience playing as vauban. 

I would like to take a moment to appreciate your courage in posting a genuine, albeit unpopular opinion on a public forum.

Obviously, I'd like to see changes. Vauban falls short of every single other Warframe in kit utility. This is something I can and would be happy to defend numerically and conceptually.

Something I did not mention was how much fun I think that Vauban is to use in "standard" gameplay. There's something about his kit, his aesthetic, etc. that always leaves me feeling like I had fun, and that I enjoyed my time in the mission. Requiem survivals are especially rewarding because of their "mobile defense" type of gameplay combined with narrow hallways and predictable enemy path-finding. Something about it never gets old for me. I only hope that eventually, with any luck, I'll be able to have that same "fun" factor incorporated into the rest of the game. To clarify, I'm referring to Grand Boss fights, Certain missions on Orb Vallis, those sorties where Lephantis ends up with "augmented enemy armor", and the alike which are currently inaccessible to Vauban without great/unnecessary effort. (It is possible, It is miserable)

I think Vauban is fun, and Vauban can have a huge impact in certain scenarios. I wish there was that same "fun" that could be had in those other mission types. I think improvements could easily be made to Vauban's kit/stats that could bring him up to being a universally competent Warframe. I don't think it is too much to ask because I believe it has already been asked, and answered. It was answered poorly.

I don't think that my opinion would be very helpful to the developers because I can't put a number and a timestamp on "it makes me happy".

What would help the development team is relevant/repeated/succinct gameplay analysis and numerical data to support it. I have chosen to take the position that Vauban, in comparison to every other Warframe, is still at a numerical/practical disadvantage across the board with significant ability overlap.

He is the Warframe that never gets old, but collects the most dust. I can't overstate my disappointment.

To summarize, I love using Vauban, and I'm glad to hear that you find it as rewarding and enjoyable as you do. I wish I could use him more.

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

I'm ok with people being "satisfied" with reworks... but for ther love of God DO NOT try to discredit everyone else who is not happy (the majority of us). It's extremely disrespectful to everyone who has put time into this thread.  

If someone could provide me with solid, credible evidence that Vauban is actually on-par with most other Warframes, and I could test this and find to my satisfaction that they are correct, I would happily be discredited. I don't mind contradicting feedback either, because a difference of thought is not something I like to take personally. I think the point of a public forum like this is to provide a methodical analysis of the reworks and strengthen our communal position based on the feedback of our peers. To what end I'm not quite sure, because there has been only one tweak to Vauban's kit thus far despite the extensive community feedback and no developer/community management communication to speak of on this forum. This is disappointing.

If we are faced with disagreement, our position should be able to defend itself with little in excess. If there is a substantive, credible counterargument that is not addressed in our position, we can use the feedback from our peers in a constructive way to adapt, and strengthen our position on the reworks to ultimately provide better feedback to our community managers, and by proxy, our developers.

I don't think that it is disrespectful at all to provide feedback that doesn't align with our position. It is either useful or it isn't, based on credible evidence provided. If it isn't useful to our position, I don't think it's of any concern. If it is useful, then this type of feedback is the most useful.

Please, everyone. Be kind to your fellow Tenno. We all clearly care about this game enough to share our thoughts in public. It is our duty to provide DE with the most constructive feedback that we can. Whether or not the majority of this feedback is heard by the development team is still up to question, but we can certainly make sure that our part is done with the upmost professionalism.

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

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17 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

Perhaps DE can integrate short surveys into the game. I have a hunch that if a player has a negative experience, that they are more likely to come to the forums and complain, than those who are happy and satisfied with their experience. I believe that is an underlying factor in why there are more complaints than praise in this thread with regards to the vauban and ember rework. 

This 100%. 

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5 hours ago, Tatann said:

Has anyone tested Vauban's armor buff from Bastille with Rhino/Frost ?

I wonder if it buffs Iron Skin (or Snowglobe) upon casting. At least if Vauban remains squishy, it could make him best bud with Rhino (in return Rhino's Roar could be nice on Flechette, and he can revive Vauban anytime an enemy sneezes on him ^^)

Yeah it works, me and my brother tried it yesterday, he needs his 1s AI tweaked

 

2 a proper rethink/rework

 

3 a few more stat adjustments, explode on contact rather then after  2 seconds would be one 

And 4s armor buff duration/build up needs buffing

 

Otherwise he is great

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Ok, here's my quick review about Vauban and his rework. At the bottom I will write what tweaks are needed to make him more useful and enjoyable to play.

It's my opinion so feel free to criticize.

Review of current Vauban's abilties and augments

My rating system (from 1-5): Useless, Bad, Mediocre, Good, Excellent.

Passive: Dismantle - 25% damage increase towards incapacitated enemies.

The passive needs no changes and synergizes with Overdriver.

1st ability: Tesla Nervos

An upgrade over the pre-rework Tesla. You can deploy 4 of those rollers, they can stun enemies with shock status and they follow you around.

Rating: Excellent

Augment: Tesla Bank

Very powerful is used right. Any enemy without armor near the rollers vicinity can be one shotted by killing the target who's got the roller attached. Best strategy is deploying Bastille, attach the Tesla Nervos drone on to an enemy and, if the enemy has no armor, headshot the enemy which will cause a chain reaction, killing any enemy nearby.

Rating: Excellent

2nd ability: Minelayer

1. Tether Coil

A simple mine that catches enemies in a ragdoll state. Perfect for executing with melee finishers. It will continue catching enemies as long as the duration doesn't run out. So you can keep killing enemies who are caught by the mine and it will catch new targets. However, it can only catch 2 enemies at a time.

Rating: Good. Could be better.

2. Flechette Orb

A mine that acts as a 360° turret. When Vauban rework was first launched, the ability sucked because the damage didn't scale. Even Overdriver didn't help. Now, it scales based on enemy level and it's much better now. It can also crit and, sometimes, it can headshot enemies. Overdriver makes it more stronger.

Rating: From bad to excellent.

3. Vector Pad

A mine that acts a boost pad. Pushing enemies away and can catapult you to a shown direction. Ok, many dislike this one and I agree. It could be useful if it gave you bonuses such as Evasion, temporarily increased movement and sprint speed or something else. I have ideas on how to improve it but many prefer something else, like a mine that buffs shields or armor, a teleporter mine that can teleport Vauban and his teammates to a different location by pressing the interact button near the mine, or a mine that works similar to pre-rework Concuss, but better.

Rating: Mediocre, if you want or need to get to certain location and fast like the Void Tower obstacle courses. It can also, surprisingly, push enemies away, but it can be used to troll other teammates.

4. Overdriver

A mine that can buff Vauban and his teammates' weapons. This ability is a nice and synergizes well with Vauban's passive and Flechette Orb. Good for crit-based weapons. If Vauban has the 300% strength bonus in arbitrations, he can give himself and his teammates a 100% damage boost. Unfortunately, it can't be refreshed and throwing Overdriver to yourself or an ally that already has this buff will be wasted.

Rating: Good

Overall rating for Minelayer: Good. If the Vector Pad is either buffed or changed to something else, the minelayer could be the great addition for Vauban.

3rd Ability: Photon Strike

Throw a mine that acts as a beacon for an orbital strike. It scales based on enemy level and can synergize with Bastille's Vortex or Tether Coil. You must remove the armor from enemies with Bastille in order for this ability to be effective.

Rating: Excellent

Augment: Photon Repeater

If you hit at least 5 enemies with Photon Strike, this augment will grant you a next free cast. Nothing more to say.

Rating: Excellent

4th Ability: Bastille / Vortex

Throw a mine that creates a suspension field, holding enemies in the air. Granting armor while at the same time stripping enemies' armor. After duration is done, it will turn into a Vortex mine, sucking in enemies in one place. Perfect for headshotting enemies while suspended and perfect for melee finishers or using Photon Strike while stuck in Vortex.

Ok, my main issue with this ability is that it's the only ability that grants Vauban and squishy frames some form of tankiness which is also tied to CC. The total amount of extra armor you can get from Bastille is 1000. Alright, not bad. And you can have that buff as long as you're inside the range of Bastille, but when you get out, you only have 10s (base) to retain this buff before it vanishes. Sure, it can be refreshed at any time as soon as you step inside the Bastille, but this means in order to retain it for more than 10s while in motion, you have to keep triggering Bastille every 8 seconds (or more) just to retain your only buff that makes you tanky enough against high level enemies. And it costs 100 energy per Bastille. Wukong, however, has better protection with 1500 armor, lasts for 25s (base) and costs 50 energy. I get it, it's a team buff. It's supposed to be expensive and it's supposed to have limitations but comparing it to Oberon or Nezha in terms of duration for protection, Vauban is outclassed. But the ability itself is great in terms of CC. I'm fine with retaining the armor buff by recasting Bastille, but 10s (base) is too short.

Rating: Good

Augment: Repelling Bastille

Repels new enemies away while in Bastille mode. Vortex mode gets increased by 70% of max duration for each additional vortex thrown in. Nothing more to say.

Rating (edited) : Mediocre. Because all it does is push new enemies away while also increasing max duration for Vortex. It could be somewhat useful if you run negative strength builds but none of the builds I used have negative strength because almost all of Vauban's abilities are centered towards power strength. This includes: 1st ability with the augment, 2nd ability, 3rd ability and 4th ability for armor stripping.

Tweaks

1st ability - None

2nd ability - Make Vector Pad into a propulsion shield. If you pass through the shield, it will send you forwards with a movement speed and parkour buff. Allies shooting through the shield will boost the projectile speed. Enemies shooting through the shield will deal 50% reduced damage, has 50% for the shots to be deflected and will push enemies away if they try to pass through it.

As for Tether Coil, increase the number of enemies for the mine to catch to 3.

For Overdriver, make it refreshable. I don't see a reason not to make it do that.

3rd ability - None

4th ability - Increase the armor buff duration to 15s, 20s, or 30s (Wisp's mote duration).

Augment for Bastille - Instead of pushing new enemies away and increasing duration for Vortex, make Bastille's augment add radiation status for suspended targets and new targets who enter Bastille when the number of suspended enemies is full. This makes it so that suspended and new enemies within Bastille's radius are free of any buffs from enemies' support units and eximus units.

Edited by RobRalneR
Updated 2nd ability tweaks.
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Observed problem with Ember's new kit: Toggling Immolation off and on shouldn't be the optimal way to play her.

I'm not going to make suggestions about what to change because I don't want to step on the developers'(s) creative vision, I'm instead only going to bring awareness to the most critical problem.

I understand that the intended cycle is to build meter and then spend energy to avoid hemorrhaging all of your energy, however because of the cost for Fireblast being 75 energy the intended gameplay loop isn't fun. Ember's immolation is often much too fast and frequently requiring three, sometimes four, casts of Fireblast to return the burnrate to normal. Without efficiency mods that's 225~/~300 energy spent through back-to-back casts. Ember can't sustain herself without constantly being conscious of energy when modding. She needs either max efficiency and wasting slots, or her augment, or Energize, or a Zaw with Exodia Brave. Some players I have talked too suggest others build loadouts with combinations of what I listed.

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(Ps4) Ember fire blast is isn't procing on all hits, it also doesn't hit all enemies in line of sight. But enemies it does hit, doesn't always proc. thank you

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On 2019-11-25 at 8:31 PM, Acquire_Manatees said:

Oxium Prime! At least it isn't the Hema, right? I respect your position, and I agree that Vauban doesn't have a very good Oxium/DPS ratio. However, if the Nitain cost were removed, I'd be happy to farm 50,000 Oxium in its place. I think that's an opinion topic for a new thread, but I couldn't resist.

Thank you for your patience,

-Manatees

or maybe there's a short cut... able to control or disable the mobility of those demo unit for a few sec

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*blinks*

Why the hell does Flechette Orb scale off of enemy level? Was it always like that? Am I losing my mind?
In any case, it is very possible to create a 25+m radius autokill zone by popping a Vortex and a Flechette Orb into an open area. Enemies get pulled onto the vortex, at which point they are directly on top of the orb and get hit by every single nail, taking massive amounts of scaling damage. This incidentally also renders Photon Strike worthless, as Flechette does the exact same thing but at less cost over a continuous duration with an element that isn't awful against armor.

In any case, I am extremely impressed that DE managed to create a new afk frame at the same time as they got rid of one.

(I haven't been following this thread so I assume this has already been touched on, and most likely praised as a wonderful design decision.)

E: Yep, it goes off of enemy level, in a similar manner to Grendel's Regurgitate. Every 10 levels plus one adds 1 to the damage multiplier. In other words, against a level 100 enemy the damage would be multiplied 10x. Since Flechette seems to fire about 4 nails per second, this comes out to about 300 x 10 X 4 = 12,000 unmodded damage per second against level 100 enemies, dealt completely autonomously for 25 seconds (modded by Duration). Yay?

E2: You can also have up to 4 Flechettes out at once, so that comes out to 48k maximum flechette damage.

Edited by MrFrog9
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26 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

*blinks*

Why the hell does Flechette Orb scale off of enemy level? Was it always like that? Am I losing my mind?
In any case, it is very possible to create a 25+m radius autokill zone by popping a Vortex and a Flechette Orb into an open area. Enemies get pulled onto the vortex, at which point they are directly on top of the orb and get hit by every single nail, taking massive amounts of scaling damage. This incidentally also renders Photon Strike worthless, as Flechette does the exact same thing but at less cost over a continuous duration with an element that isn't awful against armor.

In any case, I am extremely impressed that DE managed to create a new afk frame at the same time as they got rid of one.

(I haven't been following this thread so I assume this has already been touched on, and most likely praised as a wonderful design decision.)

E: Yep, it goes off of enemy level, in a similar manner to Grendel's Regurgitate. Every 10 levels plus one adds 1 to the damage multiplier. In other words, against a level 100 enemy the damage would be multiplied 10x. Since Flechette seems to fire about 4 nails per second, this comes out to about 300 x 10 X 4 = 12,000 unmodded damage per second against level 100 enemies, dealt completely autonomously for 25 seconds (modded by Duration). Yay?

E2: You can also have up to 4 Flechettes out at once, so that comes out to 48k maximum flechette damage.

To be AFK, you need to stay alive. Vauban isn't currently good for that.

I don't think removing one of the good things about his rework (scaling damage) is a good idea.

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1 minute ago, Tatann said:

To be AFK, you need to stay alive. Vauban isn't currently good for that.

I don't think removing one of the good things about his rework (scaling damage) is a good idea.

this community impresses me

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So it does. It seems to scale in damage a bit too efficiently though, maybe per 25 levels would be more "balanced" like Regurgitate used to do.

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13 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

So it does. It seems to scale in damage a bit too efficiently though, maybe per 25 levels would be more "balanced" like Regurgitate used to do.

This. I don't think it's unreasonable against weaker enemies, and it'd be nice for Flechette to at least function as supplementary damage at higher levels, but as it is pretty much anything Corpus or Infested regardless of level just gets blended. Even armor isn't a problem if you bring an Embolist modded for corrosive and just spritz the ball occasionally.

Assuming it's not a bug, because it seems very weird to me that such a huge change (assuming it was changed and I'm not just stupid) would go unmentioned in patch notes

E: Addendum to my previous calculation: the flechettes also seem to have a very high critical chance and deal double damage on a crit, so it will actually deal significantly more than the 12k per second per orb that I calculated above (although I suppose that is balanced by the fact that not all of the nails will usually hit).

Edited by MrFrog9

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It (the scaling dmg change) probably slipped through Rising Tide or its hotfixes. Since behind the scenes, we have Scott and team heavily focusing on getting Railjack gameplay ready and out the door, while also (hopefully) adjusting Ember, Vauban, and Grendel with the flood of feedback and in-game data they've gathered in these 3-4 weeks.

Just need more testing done I suppose, but I sorta hoped a Photon Strike "explosion on beacon hit only" change came first.

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