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(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

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22 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

 

Augment: Repelling Bastille

Repels new enemies away while in Bastille mode. Vortex mode gets increased by 70% of max duration for each additional vortex thrown in. Nothing more to say.

Rating : Excellent

 

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except this.  Vauban is already so starved for mod space, with the need to run survivability + range + power + duration (and maybe Natural talent), and this one is so outclassed by the other augments you would Never choose it.  I guess maybe it's useful if you run negative power strength , but I would still consider it Poor or Mediocre.

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Are we going to adress the insane energy ramp up on Grendel 1st and Ember 2nd ability at 90% even with 175 efficiency or not ?

Plenty of feedback on that regard, 2 core abilities and yet there's still radio silence on the matter.

Grendel 1st is the backbone and prerequisity for any of his other abilities to function, while Ember 2nd while being more manageable is still boosting dmg to her other abilities and it's a 90% dmg reduction getting hit hard by the ramp up.At max efficiency It should stay at 2.5 drain per second constantly , or whatever is the value set for the efficiency lvl used, not hit lvls of drain comparable to even 40/50/60 a second.

I don't see why other frames can cast and forget similar dmg reduction abilities with no negatives, and the only ramp up justified is on Valkry Histerya which is giving INVULNERABILITY, not just a mere dmg mitigation.In that case it's balanced but on Ember's Immolation the insane drain is overly exagerated.

Edited by arm4geddon-117
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Vauban is very good!

 

 

 

 

 

(if you play in levels from 0 to 20)

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8 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

It (the scaling dmg change) probably slipped through Rising Tide or its hotfixes. Since behind the scenes, we have Scott and team heavily focusing on getting Railjack gameplay ready and out the door, while also (hopefully) adjusting Ember, Vauban, and Grendel with the flood of feedback and in-game data they've gathered in these 3-4 weeks.

Just need more testing done I suppose, but I sorta hoped a Photon Strike "explosion on beacon hit only" change came first.

I'm guessing the change was made in the Friday hotfix, since looking back through the thread people started to notice that it was doing crazy damage on Saturday (although it's more that I hit the limits of my desire to play e-detective about 2 pages back). Granted, I myself only found it out last night and at that only because I accidentally used the wrong mine while messing around in the simulacrum. It is entirely possible that this is how they've always been and we're all idiots.

I'll also note that Bastille and Photon Strike appear to be one-handed actions specifically when cast on the ground (not in the air). I am almost positive this is not how they worked before but then again I would not characterise myself as being very attentive so who knows. Of note is the fact that their animations are very obviously not designed to work with firing a weapon and it looks very bad when you do; whatever weapon is held is waved around offhandedly during the animation leading to the fire tracing some very odd paths towards the targeting reticle from the weapon's muzzle. It's especially noticeable with the Glaxion because it's a beam weapon with a long barrel.

I think the idea behind the buffs is sound (make Flechette not complete garbage, free up Vauban during his casting animations) but the execution was really haphazard in an implementation and transparency sense.

E: I agree that this almost certainly has to do with the final push to Railjack sucking up all of the team's attention. Failures in communication, both with us and internally, are to be expected.

Edited by MrFrog9

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While they tinker around with Flechette, I am hoping to see some more changes to the other mines too...

Tether Coil's pull should be strong enough to bring enemies directly onto the mine; if blocked by obstacles, release that enemy and look for another. The extra coils stuck to dead enemies just have to go, they are visually chaotic and probably lowers performance too. Ability Strength affecting the target cap but dipping no lower than 1 target per coil, would encourage Strength-focused build diversity.

Vector Pad is fairly effective against enemies. On Vauban and allies, utterly pointless without a fair amount of Strength. Its "one-use while on top" nature begs for more functionality to benefit players in the long term. Increase the base speed boost to 30-40 meters, add a timed buff that increases parkour distance, as well as a projectile speed bonus for ally gunfire + ability projectiles as a buff. In the short term, allies are propelled at a reasonably fast speed for using he pad; in the long term, they would travel further with parkour and hit their marks much faster. Vauban would also throw his ability balls much faster! In a way, a Natural Talent that increases ball speed rather than animation speed, making the mod still a viable option but giving Vauban an innate fast-ball trick.

Overdriver is a nice damage buff, but incredibly fickle in choosing its targets to buff. Drop it onto the ground and it goes right for the objective nearby or a Companion, rather than players that can use the buff right now. Players should be prioritized at all times when in range of an Overdriver mine. Also, to add extra flair, I think it should also buff status chance. Otherwise it is a pretty good mine.

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Overall I like the Ember rework, but it does have some issues. The main problem is the exponentially increasing energy drain on her 2. It means that you can't leave her at max heat for very long without losing all of your energy, which means you can't benefit from that 90% damage resistance very much. And unfortunately due to the poorly designed enemy scaling, anything less than 90% dr in high level missions might as well be 0%. Right now when playing anything above level 60, you have a choice: lose all your energy, or die. The equation of how much her 1 and 4 accelerate her heat increase, how much her 3 decreases it, and how much energy it drains at max needs to be rebalanced.

Her 1 also feels incredibly weak and pointless now. It needs to get back the ability to leave a ball of fire at the impact point, because that was really the only purpose it had before. It certainly can't kill anything as of right now, unless maybe you get a headshot with it. Which brings me to the next point, and this was true before the rework, the targeting of her 1 needs improvement. It's far too easy to whiff, especially when the enemy is right in front of you. And this is particularly true when playing with a controller, because you can't really aim it since you must take your thumb off the right stick in order to press the ability button. This makes the charged version of her 1 utterly useless. I would suggest giving it a control method like Garuda's 4, where the initial tap of the ability button is all that is required to initiate a charge, and holding the charge only requires holding the ability menu button instead of holding both buttons at once.

Edited by (PS4)sister-hawk

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On 2019-11-26 at 6:18 PM, Costanzafaust said:

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except this.  Vauban is already so starved for mod space, with the need to run survivability + range + power + duration (and maybe Natural talent), and this one is so outclassed by the other augments you would Never choose it.  I guess maybe it's useful if you run negative power strength , but I would still consider it Poor or Mediocre.

Already changed the rating and added a new suggestion of tweaks in the "Tweaks" section.

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18 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Vector Pad is fairly effective against enemies. On Vauban and allies, utterly pointless without a fair amount of Strength. Its "one-use while on top" nature begs for more functionality to benefit players in the long term. Increase the base speed boost to 30-40 meters, add a timed buff that increases parkour distance, as well as a projectile speed bonus for ally gunfire + ability projectiles as a buff. In the short term, allies are propelled at a reasonably fast speed for using he pad; in the long term, they would travel further with parkour and hit their marks much faster. Vauban would also throw his ability balls much faster! In a way, a Natural Talent that increases ball speed rather than animation speed, making the mod still a viable option but giving Vauban an innate fast-ball trick.

I tried using it against enemies and, I gotta say, pushing enemies away is surprisingly effective. Even eximus and support/buff units. I can imagine running away from an invincible enemy and tossing Vector Pad to push him away for a dozen meters away.

Also, edited the rating and description.

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Something that'd be neat for Vector Pad would be if shooting over it in the given direction would buff the shot somehow (more flight speed, more crit, etc.). I also saw someone suggest in another thread that the pad also deflect enemy shots that go over/near it as a compromise for the people who want it replaced with a shield.

Edited by MrFrog9

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On 2019-11-25 at 6:30 AM, Acquire_Manatees said:

What would help the development team is relevant/repeated/succinct gameplay analysis and numerical data to support it. I have chosen to take the position that Vauban, in comparison to every other Warframe, is still at a numerical/practical disadvantage across the board with significant ability overlap.

(popping this in because it occurs to me that a lot of players might not be aware of this)

Warframe's servers actually do compile exhaustively detailed gameplay statistics, ranging from obvious things like the stuff you see in the mission progress tab to usage statistics based on MR to minutiae such as how often players are killed by the laser trap in Void Defense (very, apparently). While I don't know the full extent of the statistics they gather, it is more than likely that if Vauban is truly underperforming in terms of dealing damage, staying alive, and/or aiding his team DE can see it reflected in the numbers they've gathered. It's stated directly in the OP that DE will be using these statistics in tandem with player feedback to direct their handling of the content introduced in The Old Blood.

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6 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

Something that'd be neat for Vector Pad would be if shooting over it in the given direction would buff the shot somehow (more flight speed, more crit, etc.). I also saw someone suggest in another thread that the pad also deflect enemy shots that go over/near it as a compromise for the people who want it replaced with a shield.

Like a velocity wall, reducing damage of shots that pass through it against its direction.

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16 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Like a velocity wall, reducing damage of shots that pass through it against its direction.

I like the idea but the size and the fact that it works in one direction (maybe with a wide angle) isn't very practical

Also Bastille kinda does the same (bonus armor means damage reduction when inside the Bastille, problem is you need to build the DR)

For the damage bonus, I think that since Vector Pad could accelerate projectiles, it should give punch through too (could be nice to clean corridors)

Although overall, I'd still prefer it to be removed for a good non-trolling survivability ability (shield bubble, healing pylon)

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9 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

Warframe's servers actually do compile exhaustively detailed gameplay statistics, ranging from obvious things like the stuff you see in the mission progress tab to usage statistics based on MR to minutiae such as how often players are killed by the laser trap in Void Defense (very, apparently). While I don't know the full extent of the statistics they gather, it is more than likely that if Vauban is truly underperforming in terms of dealing damage, staying alive, and/or aiding his team DE can see it reflected in the numbers they've gathered. It's stated directly in the OP that DE will be using these statistics in tandem with player feedback to direct their handling of the content introduced in The Old Blood.

I am not sure that this would help us generate our own feedback. Vauban is numerically underperforming in comparison to other Warframes. As an example, I have compiled a detailed comparison to Wisp's first ability on page 16 of this forum . Based on the data readily available to all of us, Vauban could never be as useful as any other Warframe in the majority of traditional mission types and none of the newer Grand Boss / Kuva Lich missions. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban still has overlapping abilities. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban has comparatively mediocre team buffs. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban still lacks basic durability let alone adequate damage resistance/mitigation provided by abilities. Though I'm absolutely positive that the usage statistics will reflect this trend, I feel as if I must reiterate that Vauban is mediocre regardless.

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

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Taken feedback from page 22 and updated tweaks. See page 21.

Here's my version of Vector Pad:

2nd ability - Make Vector Pad into a propulsion shield. If you pass through the shield, it will send you forwards with a movement speed and parkour buff. Allies shooting through the shield will boost the projectile speed. Enemies shooting through the shield will deal 50% reduced damage, has 50% for the shots to be deflected and will push enemies away if they try to pass through it.

Edited by RobRalneR
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3 hours ago, Acquire_Manatees said:

I am not sure that this would help us generate our own feedback. Vauban is numerically underperforming in comparison to other Warframes. As an example, I have compiled a detailed comparison to Wisp's first ability on page 16 of this forum . Based on the data readily available to all of us, Vauban could never be as useful as any other Warframe in the majority of traditional mission types and none of the newer Grand Boss / Kuva Lich missions. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban still has overlapping abilities. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban has comparatively mediocre team buffs. Regardless of usage statistics, Vauban still lacks basic durability let alone adequate damage resistance/mitigation provided by abilities. Though I'm absolutely positive that the usage statistics will reflect this trend, I feel as if I must reiterate that Vauban is mediocre regardless.

Thank you for your consideration,

-Manatees

Breh I wasn't trying to debate or debunk you (I am not nearly intellectually or emotionally competent for that), I was just stating a fact that I wasn't sure you were aware of. I don't know why you're responding so confrontationally.

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

So.... garuda got a buff to her skills.

DE: what's your feedback on vauban

community: vauban is in dire need of help

DE: ok heres a buff to garuda

Community:😑

They may have been working on Garuda months ago and release it now, just like they may be considering Vauban's feedback right now but will release buffs/reworks on some aspects in January. That's (sadly for us) how software development works.

Buffs to charge delay on tesla and photon strike were quick wins, that's why we got them so fast. I still think some improvement could be made by number tweaking (durations, values of damage/armor buffs) but maybe they prefer a re-rework instead of gradual updates. Maybe they have a new skin coming with it and hope for sales if the re-rework is praised

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27 minutes ago, Tatann said:

They may have been working on Garuda months ago and release it now, just like they may be considering Vauban's feedback right now but will release buffs/reworks on some aspects in January. That's (sadly for us) how software development works.

Buffs to charge delay on tesla and photon strike were quick wins, that's why we got them so fast. I still think some improvement could be made by number tweaking (durations, values of damage/armor buffs) but maybe they prefer a re-rework instead of gradual updates. Maybe they have a new skin coming with it and hope for sales if the re-rework is praised

Fair 

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So, let me just say this straight up: I don't understand Ember anymore.

Lots of text to set this up. TL;DR at the bottom if you don't care about that.
 

So, fresh off the rework, I tried my old build (this with an Aura forma and 2 maxed Arcane Energize), found it non-viable - given how much casting she needs to do, the strength gain wasn't worth the eff hit on energy cost (not even the AEs countered that), forget the max-heat manaburn. Switched to this, which (puts her as my most forma'ed frame, at 11, and) is miles more usable, but I officially give up.
Her kit doesn't make sense, and I just cannot figure how to do damage with her.

* Fireball has both a combo meter and a charge mechanic, and they conflict with each other unless you've got Natural Talent and 150%+ duration, or ~210% duration. On top of which, Fireball casting has the same 'non-start' that charge weapons (e.g. the Ogris) used to have - there's a "cooldown" after firing so you can't immediately start another.
* Immolation I'll get to in a bit when I start on the heat meter.
* As if the LoS shenanigans making it miss things it really shouldn't weren't bad enough (e.g. Fireblast in front of a group, front lines go sprawling, back lines stay standing and keep firing despite the front lines falling on them, forget geometry/cone-of-vision shennanigans), Fireblast also has a propagation time around as long as the 'standing up' animation. Unless there are no lines of fire longer than ~20 meters, it will always leave something shooting at you, even if it knocked everything down.
* Inferno. A conal, range-limited, LoS restricted and-none-of-this-is-reflected-in-the-UI nuke that A) doesn't innately contribute to Conflagration and B) wants to be spammed. The first is annoying, the second is not a problem in-and-of itself... but this brings us to the heat meter.

So, some notes on the heat meter:
* No abilities give a flat +# heat, just +# Fill rate. Fireblast, conversely, reduces both flat heat and fill rate.
* Fill rate, as far as I can tell, is uncapped. Further,
* Fill rate does not reset when your meter hits max.
* Whether actually-in-practice or merely in effect, the manaburn from a capped heat meter ramps up indefinitely.
* From testing, you need 3 Fireblasts to counter the fill rate of 2 Infernos.
* Your Heat meter does not affect your ability damage.

Immolation, effectively your only survivability (due to Fireblast's unreliability) gives you %DR based on your current heat level, with a minimum of 50% DR at empty and 85% DR at full, subject to power str and capping at 90% - which 7.5% str will get you.
The minimum, however, isn't affected by Power Strength, meaning that you're entirely reliant on your heat level for your %DR, and that - with regards to this - even an Intensify is overkill, and that before Conflagration.

Further, Fireblast drops your heat by 50% current, dumping you to somewhere between 50% and 75% DR.

So either you're spamming Infernos (with anywhere between another 0.25 and 1.5 Fireblasts per cast, depending on whether you're trying to be not-capped or at neutral fill, respectively), or you're going passive so you can have some %DR without the manaburn, leaving you an ability-less off-tank in a game that rewards neither.

 

TL;DR-
So.
We have a frame with 50% DR and nothing else as reliable, passive defenses (due to the fluctuating level of Heat, and Str-independence of Immolation's minimum %DR), and nothing reliable by way of active defenses, due to Fireball's limitations and Fireblast's restrictions.
We have a frame that needs positive Strength to do damage and nothing else.
We have a frame that needs neutral-or-better range (and LoS, dear lord) to actually hurt things with her nuke and nothing else.
We have a frame that breathes Efficiency if you intend to do any active casting with her.
On the bright side, Duration you can dump. The only detriment is the debuff's duration on Inferno, which you're probably spamming anyway.

This is definitely an improvement, modding-wise, over her previous MAD (esp with the shrinking WoF), but her kit itself just doesn't seem to work.
Fireball's two mechanics conflict with each other, and spamming (let alone holding) a 1 is awkward to use while moving.
Immolation is a passive that either does nothing or give you an inconsistent level of %DR and eats all your energy. You're better off ignoring it and parkouring/dodgerolling all the time.
Fireblast is delayed, unreliable CC, but will set things on fire (and strip armor if Immolation's up) if it hits them.
Inferno will eat all your energy, cap your heat meter to eat all your energy, or force you to sprinkle Fireblasts and occasionally toggle your Immolation (and lose even the 50% DR) so it doesn't passively eat all your energy.

Maybe I'm just "doing it wrong", but that's my feedback.

Edited by Chroia
Links and this editor, ffs.

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14 hours ago, Tatann said:

They may have been working on Garuda months ago and release it now, just like they may be considering Vauban's feedback right now but will release buffs/reworks on some aspects in January. That's (sadly for us) how software development works.

Gauss took not so long to become current state. So hopefully, we would see Vauban gets a love in the second half of December.

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15 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

I was just stating a fact that I wasn't sure you were aware of. I don't know why you're responding so confrontationally.

Hostility is not my intention. I appreciate your input, especially considering that the usage statistics kept by DE are not something I take into account in my previous posts. I am not as tactful as I'd like to be, but I hope that my responses and criticisms are never taken as personal attacks.

Thank you for your patience,

-Manatees

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On 2019-11-25 at 3:26 AM, Tatann said:

I'll consider Vauban an armored frame when the armor buff from Bastille doesn't take 10 second to be maxed (if your allies doesn't kill the enemies in Bastille first) and if its base duration is buffed to 30 seconds like Wisp motes

Right now it's to situational and high maintenance to be a permanent buff, so it doesn't really make Vauban an armored frame imho 

As usual, a simple tweak to numbers could easily make him bearable survivability wise, without making him a tank god

Being honest, I'd rather see that armor buff take the form of a permanent buff to armor that has to be stripped off from hits over time and can be refreshed with enemies trapped in another Bastille similar to Wukong's armor buff.

Vauban is still entirely too squishy after the re-work and survivability has always been his main issue imo.

 

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