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(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

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Ember burns energy way too quickly even with max energy. Her heart guage fills too quickly with inferno and fire blast doesn't remove enough time[as in it needs to reduce how quickly it fills better]. I suggest swapping heat gauge numbers between her 3 and 4. 

And the energy cost after max heat is ridiculous. I suggest cutting in half

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Waiting with anticipation for tonight (Europe) devstream, I hope they talk about the feedback on Ember and Vauban, and especially announce some tweaks coming soon (TM), or even "mini-rework" :-)

Still testing some new builds on Vauban, ability strength isn't so bad on him in the end, problem is it's hard to upgrade every aspects (range, duration, strength, efficiency and survivability)

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2 hours ago, Tatann said:

Waiting with anticipation for tonight (Europe) devstream, I hope they talk about the feedback on Ember and Vauban, and especially announce some tweaks coming soon (TM), or even "mini-rework" 🙂

Still testing some new builds on Vauban, ability strength isn't so bad on him in the end, problem is it's hard to upgrade every aspects (range, duration, strength, efficiency and survivability)

If they replace speed vector pad with a corpus bubble and have its number of hits correspond to power strength he would be able to have a nice build set up.

Also Bastille is not an effective form of defense/survivability for vauban.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

 

If they replace speed vector pad with a corpus bubble and have its number of hits correspond to power strength he would be able to have a nice build set up.

Also Bastille is not an effective form of defense/survivability for vauban.

Bastille with adjusted values to its armor buff (cap at 1500 and 30 second base duration outside of Bastille) would be an effective form of survivability for Vauban AND allies (if they get it from Bastille)

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I feel they should do that, but also just give a flat 500 armor regardless if enemies are in it or not. 

Cuz wisps 1st ability greatly outshines it.  (Bonus health plus regeneration plus PERMANENT FOR 25 ENERGY).  Its too reliant on enemies having armor (mainly grineer) for it to be worth while.  In orb valise it's not much use imo. 

I will say if they do the shield bubble and make it good then im.fine with Bastille as is (as it would be icing for his defense not the main source).  Hell if they did that and made it synergize with Bastille giving him armor on top of the shield that would be good plus #synergy.

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

I feel they should do that, but also just give a flat 500 armor regardless if enemies are in it or not. 

Cuz wisps 1st ability greatly outshines it.  (Bonus health plus regeneration plus PERMANENT FOR 25 ENERGY).  Its too reliant on enemies having armor (mainly grineer) for it to be worth while.  In orb valise it's not much use imo. 

I will say if they do the shield bubble and make it good then im.fine with Bastille as is (as it would be icing for his defense not the main source).  Hell if they did that and made it synergize with Bastille giving him armor on top of the shield that would be good plus #synergy.

 

If they do the Nullifier bubble, sure Vauban won't really need armor that much, but it's still a missed opportunity.

Also, contrary to description, Bastille grants armor even if enemies don't have any (Corpus, Infested). Maybe it's faster with Grineer, but it's still ramping fast with Corpus with 155% strength.

Instead of a flat base armor (requiring no enemy ?) I think a base 50 armor per enemy (scaling with strength) would suit more. At least it makes you use Bastille against a group of enemies. That way if you trap 4 or 5 enemies, with a bit of strength, you get at least 500 bonus armor immediately, but if you trap more (or build for a lot of strength), you get an even better start, so it rewards a bit of "skill"

Edited by Tatann

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3 hours ago, Tatann said:

If they do the Nullifier bubble, sure Vauban won't really need armor that much, but it's still a missed opportunity.

Also, contrary to description, Bastille grants armor even if enemies don't have any (Corpus, Infested). Maybe it's faster with Grineer, but it's still ramping fast with Corpus with 155% strength.

Instead of a flat base armor (requiring no enemy ?) I think a base 50 armor per enemy (scaling with strength) would suit more. At least it makes you use Bastille against a group of enemies. That way if you trap 4 or 5 enemies, with a bit of strength, you get at least 500 bonus armor immediately, but if you trap more (or build for a lot of strength), you get an even better start, so it rewards a bit of "skill"

Scaling by enemies or growing the armor buff with enemies is a trap (no pun intended).  It is counter-productive to have abilities that are at odds with squad objectives.  In general, team mates will murder any enemies they see.  So if Vauban gains armor by NOT killing enemies it will lead to frustration.  You do not need to look further than the many threads about Nidus gathering enemies with Larva and then having their team kill them before he can stomp them down for mutation stacks.  

I do not think it would be overpowered at all to just gain the flat maximum armor buff, and give it a much higher duration.  Keep in mind that Vauban's kit is most similar to Gara, Frost, and Khora (area defense frames).  Gara has 90% DR and a wall with 10's of thousands of HP.  Frost's bubble gives total ranged immunity with a stacking and scaling HP value.  Khora is the least defensive but can put Venari in heal mode and run range mods to have two domes each grabbing with 30+ meter radius.  Of these four frames, Vauban has the lowest EHP at base, and the lowest modified EHP based on skills.  

Bottom line, Vauban needs a major defensive buff, and a slow-growing armor buff that fades too quickly is not it.

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If instead of the weird speed vector pad vauban had a corpus style nullifier bubble it would help a lot with survivability, maybe even add to the whole cc and anti corpus theme by enabling him to turn his shield into a large area emp that disables technology, like stunning drones, moas, maybe even temporarily disabling corpus bubbles, would make him a lot more desirable, removing nullifier bubbles temporarily sounds very appealing. Drawback could be that you can't use the shield while the emp is taking effect either.

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After playing a lot of Vauban Rework ... I'm still struggling with him.

He's awful to mod.

He's insanely squishy.

He's completely useless past missions of level 30 and earlier than that all of his skills are wasted because it's simply faster to kill things in your path.

See my previous reply on modding him.

 

One Quality of Life Improvement I'd like though:

On his 2 - please cycle the abilities on HOLD and cast on Press

So many times in battle I try to use this ability only to cycle it instead.

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1 hour ago, Haranthus said:

After playing a lot of Vauban Rework ... I'm still struggling with him.

He's awful to mod.

He's insanely squishy.

He's completely useless past missions of level 30 and earlier than that all of his skills are wasted because it's simply faster to kill things in your path.

See my previous reply on modding him.

 

One Quality of Life Improvement I'd like though:

On his 2 - please cycle the abilities on HOLD and cast on Press

So many times in battle I try to use this ability only to cycle it instead.

You can switch the press/hold behaviour in the options menu

Also watching last devstream made me kinda sad. Not that the railjack content looked bad, and I understand they're currently looking forward, not backward (reworks), but not a single work about the feedback...

Edited by Tatann
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1 hour ago, Haranthus said:

On his 2 - please cycle the abilities on HOLD and cast on Press

I'd rather they would change the control scheme entirely and experiment with a new way to handle these abilities. The cycling thing is difficult to operate while under fire, and it leaves little room to combine options. I never use overdriver as a result. 

It should either be:

1: Press 2 to access minelayer, then 1 to drop a tether and close minelayer. 2, then 2 to drop a flechette, etc.

2: Ditch vector pad and make minelayer work like Equinox' metamorphosis. Press 2 to open minelayer. Press 1 for tether, then 3 for flechette, then 2 again to close minelayer.

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I only use Flechette, so I switch to it every start of mission and then quick tap to deploy it like any ability.

I know it's a missed opportunity for other mines (well except for vector pad) but the tether is useless to me cause I don't need more CC and the impractical damage buff ? Well it's impractical in its current form, and 25% (even 37% on my build) I just don't mind, Flechette or Photon Strike already deal enough damage, my weapons too, at least enough so I don't need a 25% to notice the difference.

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Hello. This just dropped on Switch and I spent this weekend thinking Inferno was way too powerful and must have been nerfed somewhat in the next update. Is this correct or is she really going to be this broken going forward? I wouldn't mind, but I've spent a fair amount of time playing Saryn, who many consider OP and broken and unfun to play with. This new Ember can fall right into this category as well. I can see it causing teammates to have a bad play experience. 

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23 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

Hello. This just dropped on Switch and I spent this weekend thinking Inferno was way too powerful and must have been nerfed somewhat in the next update. Is this correct or is she really going to be this broken going forward? I wouldn't mind, but I've spent a fair amount of time playing Saryn, who many consider OP and broken and unfun to play with. This new Ember can fall right into this category as well. I can see it causing teammates to have a bad play experience. 

Ember requires line of sight, Saryn doesn't

Ember deals fire damage, Saryn deals corrosive (and viral) which are better to reduce EHP

Even if Ember now have DR (like Saryn has more health and armor) and can now heal herself with an augment (again, like Saryn), the 2 first points still make Saryn stronger... Well, until the incoming nerf

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29 minutes ago, Tatann said:

Ember requires line of sight, Saryn doesn't

Ember deals fire damage, Saryn deals corrosive (and viral) which are better to reduce EHP

Even if Ember now have DR (like Saryn has more health and armor) and can now heal herself with an augment (again, like Saryn), the 2 first points still make Saryn stronger... Well, until the incoming nerf

this doesn't answer my question. I agree with what you say, don't understand why you said it. I wasn't trying to compare the two so much as draw the parallel between how easily they both clear tiles with minimal investment or effort. I think maybe I wasn't clear enough: was there a rework of Inferno after the rework Switch currently has in the upcoming updates? Because it seems to me that Inferno would make some folks rage quit and, if I'm not mistaken, some already have from missions I was taking part in. Could have been a bad connection, too though, I guess. 

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40 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

this doesn't answer my question. I agree with what you say, don't understand why you said it. I wasn't trying to compare the two so much as draw the parallel between how easily they both clear tiles with minimal investment or effort. I think maybe I wasn't clear enough: was there a rework of Inferno after the rework Switch currently has in the upcoming updates? Because it seems to me that Inferno would make some folks rage quit and, if I'm not mistaken, some already have from missions I was taking part in. Could have been a bad connection, too though, I guess. 

She still requires more effort than before (at least you need positioning), her 4 isn't a "fire and forget" (pun intended) ability like before, and she got some ok-ish (but hard to maintain) DR to grant her some survivability. I don't see what's OP, I'd call it balanced.

Almost every damage Warframe should be able to clear starchart level mission by (ab)using his 4, or that would be a really bad 4. Obviously if some player abuses it and it ruins the fun for others, I could see them rage quitting, but I don't see the difference with other frames with AoE damage abilities (Volt, Mag, Mesa, Oberon (?), Equinox, Gauss, Frost, ...)

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10 minutes ago, Tatann said:

She still requires more effort than before (at least you need positioning), her 4 isn't a "fire and forget" (pun intended) ability like before, and she got some ok-ish (but hard to maintain) DR to grant her some survivability. I don't see what's OP, I'd call it balanced.

Almost every damage Warframe should be able to clear starchart level mission by (ab)using his 4, or that would be a really bad 4. Obviously if some player abuses it and it ruins the fun for others, I could see them rage quitting, but I don't see the difference with other frames with AoE damage abilities (Volt, Mag, Mesa, Oberon (?), Equinox, Gauss, Frost, ...)

I see what you're saying. Agreed she should clear chart missions. It just seemed very powerful, as though very soon it would be turned down a notch. But yeah my testing at levels beyond 100 she turns very much into a Saryn-like playstyle, not so much nuke as DOT

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1 hour ago, Tatann said:

Ember requires line of sight, Saryn doesn't

Ember deals fire damage, Saryn deals corrosive (and viral) which are better to reduce EHP

Even if Ember now have DR (like Saryn has more health and armor) and can now heal herself with an augment (again, like Saryn), the 2 first points still make Saryn stronger... 

^^ There’s no reason to use Ember over Saryn even though Ember got the DR. 

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3 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

^^ There’s no reason to use Ember over Saryn even though Ember got the DR. 

Faster healing with augment, DR working on shields (combined with an above average shield pool) and can be applied to allies (at 50% efficiency), good CC with her 3 (except for LoS requirement).

Damage-wise she falls behind Saryn, but I can see a few reason to use her over Saryn.

If the healing augment worked on allies too, she could be a good support (DR+healing)

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1 minute ago, Tatann said:

If the healing augment worked on allies too, she could be a good support (DR+healing)

When I see statements like this I read "If she was good, she might be a decent unnecessary frame"

The verdict on the Ember update is...I'm still not using her. Her first ability is not worth the energy used to cast it, the DR gives her longevity which would be great if World on Fire was the same. Since the 3rd ability ragdolls enemies and the last is a meteor shower- Ember has been turned into what I'd consider to be a volcanic oriented frame. Almost as if she's using hardened magma to make the DR make sense (Which it doesn't otherwise make any sense, fire offers no protection)

Ultimately she's just as unusable as she was prior to the update and AT LEAST prior to the rework we could use WoF for the massive crowd control on end-game maps. Now she's not even worth that. MAYBE she could give off a few heals but she's not Oberon, Trinity. MAYBE she could share DR, but she's not Nezha, Wisp. MAYBE she could strip armor, but she's not Saryn, Mag. 

Ember is one of the original frames and deserves more respect than this update. I appreciate the work done, but the fact that I went from never using Ember to never using Ember shows me this was a wasted effort. Wukong went from never being used to being my 3rd most used frame after the rework and not just because I wanted to see the differences- rather, he was actually worth using for real reasons.

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3 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

^^ There’s no reason to use Ember over Saryn even though Ember got the DR. 

And you know what.. the first thing I asked when World on Fire got nerfed and Saryn was subsequently buffed was: WHY? Why remove one endgame ability to boost another frame obscenely to fill the void? WHY NOT BOTH? WHY NOT NEITHER? WHY IS IT AN EXCHANGE PRINCIPLE?

Ember could have worked in conjunction with Saryn prior, but is now completely dwarfed. It's laughable to choose Ember over Saryn in essentially every scenario at this point

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The main reason people would leave mission with ember is to get away from the eyesore that is inferno spam. (over the top vision blocking effects + energy cost mechanic that makes it easier to spam than pretty much any other 4 nuke)

and given that's the only reason to play her atm...

they need to start over from scratch - there's no way to get her to a healthy place with the current mechanics.

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2 minutes ago, Carillon said:

they need to start over from scratch - there's no way to get her to a healthy place with the current mechanics.

THANK YOU! Someone who gets it

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For me, the biggest loss for Ember is her Flash. That was very useful and powerful. I used it even more than wof.

It could stunned the enemies, make them weaker, boost your team with the augment...

It was really interesting.

Her actual 3 should be a Flash again.

Edited by (PS4)Kubbes
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