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(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

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After having some time to work with the new Ember after being one of the few people trying their hardest to succeed with old Ember, I just wanted to toss in my feedback on her rework. I honestly feel like the team absolutely nailed this rework. Her new kit is challenging, versatile, and incredibly fun to play. I have put 6 forma into her, including an Umbral because I've been enjoying her so much. 

I have a high efficiency, high strength, low duration build, with the energy orb augment for Inferno and Energy Conversion. Essentially a nuke build with some support from her light CC, armor stripping, and energy generation.

This results in a lot of Inferno spam, mixed in with Fireblast to keep the heat gauge under control. She feels decently tough against level 100's but I wouldn't take her into an arbitration because if you forget to watch your energy and lose your 2 she'll drop. Her damage output is fantastic and she can be quite tanky with her 2 up and enemies CC'd from fire procs. At first I was skeptical about losing World on Fire, but Inferno feels much more active and satisfying (walking into a room and dropping a meteor on it feels so good). I even use fireball sometimes when I want to proc more heat for her passive buff before dropping a nuke. It's a very active kit (with this build) and I find I can go through an entire mission only firing my guns once or twice (to take out a Nox or something usually). 

I like that she can be built as a tank now too. I've seen a lot of people running that kind of build. Her augments also let you decide what degree of support abilities you want to bring to the team (if any). 

Anyways, long story short, she's great. I invested into her and she's easily one of my new favorites as her playstyle and kit is extremely satisfying and fun to run missions with. 

Thanks!

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Ember's new kit works together incredibly well, with the exception of the general flow of the gameplay loop. The problem stems, I feel, from the way her 1st and 4th abilities speed up her heat gauge. Because after you've used those abilities (which I'll wager you will), you have three options:

  • Spam Fire Blast to not only deplete the gauge, but slow its growth, at a massive energy cost.
  • Drop her Immolation and recast it for a fresh start, hoping nobody shoots you during this time.
  • Get caught with a full gauge, run out of energy so you can't Fire Blast, and get left with neither energy nor armour.

It's not a great situation. Daring to use her best damage-dealing abilities will constantly haunt you until you reset her Immolation ability because your meter is constantly growing at an increasing rate. And you're supposed to use those abilities in quick succession and in conjunction with her Immolation ability; why else would they scale off it?

I believe this can be improved with a new minor changes:

  1. Fire Ball and Inferno don't speed up the gauge's growth, but just add a flat percentage to the gauge when they are cast. They still build on the gauge, but only when you use them.
  2. Fire Blast does not slow the gauge's growth. Ergo, the gauge's passive growth is constant.
  3. Fire Blast's energy cost decreases the more the heat gauge fills. It shouldn't take more energy to release a build-up of heat.
  4. Fire Blast gives us a finer degree of control over how much it depletes the heat gauge. Tap for a small discharge, hold for a larger one.

These changes should help Ember's gameplay loop flow better. At the moment, engaging with all of her abilities punishes ability use. You can use her 1st, 3rd and 4th on their own, but if you want to use her 2nd, you're going to fall into a cycle of trying desperately to manage her heat gauge before invariably losing all your energy, the flame armour, or both. With greater control over the heat gauge, we can make decisions based on which powers are needed to fight enemies, not which ones are needed to fight the heat gauge.

I know there are specialised builds that can compensate for the energy costs, but specialised builds should only be for specialised gameplay, not sustaining the default one with all-rounder stats.

Thank you for reading.

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I think a long press of her 3 (hold, not tap) should completely reduce the gauge for the same 75 energy cost, instead of making you spam it 3 or 4 times.

That way when your gauge is full, you can either reactivate her 2 for 50, or cast her 3 for the same effect plus the CC (and potential healing with the augment).

People who want to adjust to stay close to the maxed gauge could continue to tap 3 according to their desire.

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Vauban's bastille should be able to strip off shields since he was made to fight the corpus

The speed pad is a meme.Should be replaced by a bubble shield that would be affected by power strenght.he is very squiçhy  that  is why i think this is important

Photon strike should switch places with bastille costing 100 instead of 75 but having it's base dmg buffed from 2500 to 3000 or 3250 and it's base range go from 5 to 7 since it has to compete with the tesla bank augment

Edited by Heingra

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On 2020-01-13 at 1:01 PM, Heingra said:

Vauban's bastille should be able to strip off shields since he was made to fight the corpus

The speed pad is a meme.Should be replaced by a bubble shield that would be affected by power strenght.he is very squiçhy  that  is why i think this is important

Photon strike should switch places with bastille costing 100 instead of 75 but having it's base dmg buffed from 2500 to 3000 or 3250 and it's base range go from 5 to 7 since it has to compete with the tesla bank augment

Yea Tesla bank and fleccette orb greatly overshadow photon strike.  I now see it as an assist for areas that aren't covered/locked down by fleccette orb. 

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Vauban's kit is now quite enjoyable, with the changes that have been mate. There are a variety of methods of play now available to the player. The current problem in a nut shell seems to be "Face time" with the enemy. The skill set either takes time to set up, or time to wait for effects, and on the higher end of play this breaks down leaving Vauban hiding behind corners as the rest of the team rushes forward to compete the objective. Fun factor and variety aside, he still can not compete in the damage game. So I would suggest leaving his damage as is and increasing his sustainability.

An increase in armor and or HP would allow time for him to be shooting, as horde opponents are drawn into his range. Making him similar to other support frames, who have skills to mitigate damage.  In the case of the engineer, it may have to be base stats over skills to give him the damage resistance he needs. 

Consider having the Bastille armor buff tick down, rather then after a time simply shutting off after timer to promote Vauban being able to bunker, then move, and bunker again. Rather then currently drop Bastille, and escape the area as he can't take the incoming fire from outside the circle. 

Consider changing speed pad to a bunker, similar to the Grineer "Blunt" ability, or Atlas Tectonics. In use with Bastille, further mines, and nervos, allowing Vauban to toss down a defensive structure to advance into a hall filled with enemy, or some cover in open area maps. Rather then currently rushing to the nearest structure cover, or rock, or spending the whole time dancing and bombing till energy is used up. 

 

These are just things to consider, all in all he simply needs some form being able to keep going. Where as right now, even with the current and well made ability set Vauban simply withers under enemy fire while he waits for effects to happen.

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After seeing the latest devstream about the latest upcoming warframe Odalisk have most of her skills (trench shields, turrets, health/en/ammo recharge station ... except the tracer rewind) very, very similiar as the suggestions we posted here in the vauban feedback has left me with conflicting feelings. 

For one am happy that those ideas get implemented, but not exactly for the frame it was meant for. While I applaud the buffs to flechette, a lot of the problems such as survivability persist. Makes me wonder if DE was actually able to read our posts.

Edited by seventhwalker
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37 minutes ago, seventhwalker said:


After seeing the latest devstream about the latest upcoming warframe Odalisk have most of her skills (trench shields, turrets, health/en/ammo recharge station ... except the tracer rewind) very, very similiar as the suggestions we posted here in the vauban feedback has left me with conflicting feelings. 

For one am happy that those ideas get implemented, but not exactly for the frame it was meant for. While I applaud the buffs to flechette, a lot of the problems such as survivability persist. Makes me wonder if DE was actually able to read our posts.

They took our jo... feedback !!!

And yes I'm kinda mad

Also since it's a new frame, I guess it will have :

- higher HP and armor while looking squishy and running faster

- at least 250 energy, while some old primes are still stuck at 150

So, can we have a Vauban skin for her ? And an augment that turns her 4 into Bastille ?

 

Edited by Tatann
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From the dev stream page

Other Tidbits

  • We did a survey with the community, and a survey internally. It’s time to iterate both on Warframe and our internal processes to make 2020 the best year yet!

  • Vauban needs more armour - Scott!

  • Glass Maker is the name for Nightwave Series 3.

  • New Rendering tech that we showcased last year will be coming as early as February to PC, as an opt-in for those wanting to push their rig!

  • Cross-Save is something that we know the community wants and we’re working on it while we can. It’s a big challenge for us but we want to try!

Looks like they hear us about survivability. 

Honestly aside from my disinterest in speed pad, giving him some pure survivability is all he really needs to be viable.  

Its probably substantially easier to work in a new frame for all those ideas (basically a combo of everything we suggested).  I wouldnt mind playing the two characters a viable survivable vauban with this new tech frame. 

My suggestion is give them some kind of dual synergy.  Dunno how to make that work but it would be cool to see them both in a game working in sync.

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I had quite a bit of time to play around with le old Vauban since the rework + minor buffs, I would say Vauban is in a pretty decent place now... (i.e. flechette orb dmg scaling)
However... I do think we can do with more polishing in-lieu of the new "tech" frame coming in, having parts of her kit very similar to Vauban current kit or what players have been requesting ("less the tracer recall")

Suggested tweaks:

Tesla Nervos 
- bring status chance to 100%

Minelayer
- SCRAP VECTOR PAD (let's face it, however a meme bounce was, it was still more useful than vector pad) 
- Add speed bonuses to Supercharger (to compensate for lack of vector pad and grant Vauban a more complete offensive boost sorta like Finka from R6:Siege?
- Replace vector pad with a defensive mine... could be a form of deployable cover, or even some form of temporary damage mitigation buff like rolling guard / mesmer skin
- Tether mines could do with an extra tether? (would be nice QOL)

Photon Strike
- could deal a little more damage or an additional form of CC, like radiation/lifted status maybe? (weapons usually do the job better... not to mention flechette orb.. plz dont nerf) 

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Ember can't defend anything she has no way to stop enemy advancement and once she's out of power she even more toast.

Making her 1 cost nothing would do her wonders. 

Right now she is a badass weapon with a half magazine. A charge ability is cool if the wait does justice but it doesn't, it's a wait to do just a little more less damage 

I don't understand who thought the low damage she deals would be a great combination with high energy costs...economics 101...failed 

Edited by (XB1)EPOSSTYLE
Grammar

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4 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Nothing's coming up

I disagree, a new frame with our suggestions for Vauban is coming up

To be fair, they talked about buffing Vauban's armor, let's see by how much

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It's silly really. Aggravating, even. Something similar to the defensive ability that Odalisk is getting (like an energy bubble you toss down, similar to Snow Globe, which Vauban can pick up as a personal shield) would be an absolutely perfect #2 for Vauban (considering his named after Vauban, the fortification engineer - not to mention that then there's no need for a bandaid armorbonus), and then just scrap/merge his current Memelayer with his other skills.

Vector - Scrap this garbage.

Amp - Merge with the new defensive #2 skill (so, when you have a bubble on you and/or you're near a trench, you deal bonusdamage)

Flechette - Add it as an aftereffect to his Photon Strike, although graphically more fitting (like with a radiation cloud or something). Would be nice if Photon Strike also worked as proximity grenade. But hey, that'd be fun, so not gonna happen.

Tether - Either scrap it, or make it the holdcast of the new #2.

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On 2020-01-13 at 7:23 AM, Potatrobot said:

Ember's new kit works together incredibly well, with the exception of the general flow of the gameplay loop. The problem stems, I feel, from the way her 1st and 4th abilities speed up her heat gauge. Because after you've used those abilities (which I'll wager you will), you have three options:

  • Spam Fire Blast to not only deplete the gauge, but slow its growth, at a massive energy cost.
  • Drop her Immolation and recast it for a fresh start, hoping nobody shoots you during this time.
  • Get caught with a full gauge, run out of energy so you can't Fire Blast, and get left with neither energy nor armour.

It's not a great situation. Daring to use her best damage-dealing abilities will constantly haunt you until you reset her Immolation ability because your meter is constantly growing at an increasing rate. And you're supposed to use those abilities in quick succession and in conjunction with her Immolation ability; why else would they scale off it?

I believe this can be improved with a new minor changes:

  1. Fire Ball and Inferno don't speed up the gauge's growth, but just add a flat percentage to the gauge when they are cast. They still build on the gauge, but only when you use them.
  2. Fire Blast does not slow the gauge's growth. Ergo, the gauge's passive growth is constant.
  3. Fire Blast's energy cost decreases the more the heat gauge fills. It shouldn't take more energy to release a build-up of heat.
  4. Fire Blast gives us a finer degree of control over how much it depletes the heat gauge. Tap for a small discharge, hold for a larger one.

These changes should help Ember's gameplay loop flow better. At the moment, engaging with all of her abilities punishes ability use. You can use her 1st, 3rd and 4th on their own, but if you want to use her 2nd, you're going to fall into a cycle of trying desperately to manage her heat gauge before invariably losing all your energy, the flame armour, or both. With greater control over the heat gauge, we can make decisions based on which powers are needed to fight enemies, not which ones are needed to fight the heat gauge.

I know there are specialised builds that can compensate for the energy costs, but specialised builds should only be for specialised gameplay, not sustaining the default one with all-rounder stats.

Thank you for reading.

This is perfect.

Now Fireball just needs to become a useful skill.

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yea.. and cuz of how the heat growth scales w/ every use it eventually takes a ridiculous # of casts of fireblast to reset it down to an acceptable level

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over driver should also affeçt photon strike sinçe it affeçts fleçhette orb.you waste more energy çasting photon strike then using telsa bank or fleçhetter orb so it should do more damage.im seriously çonsidering just spamming vauban buffs that i think almost everyone wants even if i get banned from this god forsakened game.

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On 2020-01-17 at 9:57 PM, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

From the dev stream page

Other Tidbits

  • We did a survey with the community, and a survey internally. It’s time to iterate both on Warframe and our internal processes to make 2020 the best year yet!

  • Vauban needs more armour - Scott!

  • Glass Maker is the name for Nightwave Series 3.

  • New Rendering tech that we showcased last year will be coming as early as February to PC, as an opt-in for those wanting to push their rig!

  • Cross-Save is something that we know the community wants and we’re working on it while we can. It’s a big challenge for us but we want to try!

Looks like they hear us about survivability. 

Honestly aside from my disinterest in speed pad, giving him some pure survivability is all he really needs to be viable.  

Its probably substantially easier to work in a new frame for all those ideas (basically a combo of everything we suggested).  I wouldnt mind playing the two characters a viable survivable vauban with this new tech frame. 

My suggestion is give them some kind of dual synergy.  Dunno how to make that work but it would be cool to see them both in a game working in sync.

Bastille's armor strip also adds armor to Vauban if he's inside it. Seems like the rate is just based on # of enemies, not their armor or lack thereof and power strength, and caps out at 1000 regardless.

Thing is though, while it does persist after leaving Bastille's AoE, the duration for afterwards tiny; I think it's even less that the duration for Bastille, and Vortex doesn't count. For all intents and purposes it might as well not be there.

I sometimes wonder if just allowing that to last 2x or 3x Bastille's duration, or having a decay effect ala Atlas that would take a few minutes from max to get through would be enough.

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Now that I've spent some time with reworked ember, I've seen enough to give a take on it. 

In short, It's good. In long, ember is extremely powerful now, but allot of people don't realize it. I suppose that's how it goes for allot of frames, but I thought it was particularly amusing with ember. 

First ability I know you guys over at DE really love this fireball ability or don't wanna change it, but I'm still not using it for anything. Even the 100% extra heat from the augment is a big probably don't need. If ember had an exalted fore-arm flame throwers or fireball throwers, that'd be interesting. On console, you literally have to stop aiming to press A most of the time (which makes the ability pretty annoying to use as is). 

Second ability Damage reduction and synergy. Cool. This ability is good to go.

Third ability armor strip and knockdown with optional healing augment. Cool. This ability is good to go. 

Fourth Ability Big damage and nuke potential + multiple synergies and a great augment. Cool. This ability is good to go. 

dat passive

As I play with this new ember, I may create a future look at her. I probably won't need to as she seems to work quite well aside from the first ability being lame imo.

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Totally agree with Fireball.  I do not use ANY single target abilities on ANY frame.   Tapping you ability button fires off your last used Ability,  you can use that to cast single target abilities more easily.  I think on consoles it would just be better to assign it to those kind of abilities to a button.   If Fireball was more like a Meteor....Make the size of the fireball 3x as big (before you charge it up) that would be pretty amazing.  Instead of single target it would be like AoE.  Technically it would just be this giant beam attack, like 3m radius cylinder.  Visually it would look like a giant meteor shot from Ember towards wherever she was pointing.  

I love ember for the most part but I miss her passive killing potential.  Now its entirely active killing only.  I think they could give us back a little bit of Worlf on Fire by adding a 5m range DoT effect to our 2nd ability.  We have a freaking inferno enveloping us it should damage/kill anything that gets to close to us.   It should also be tied to that flame meter.  The hotter we get the more range it has and the more damage it does.  But the cap is 5meters or less.  Not old WoF range by any means,  but still a little taste of it.  

But her damage reduction is awesome, cant believe they ever got rid of it.  

Please Please Please I am begging, please give Mag a damage reduction ability.  

I was in love with ember before I ever got her.  I have used her for her last 3 reworks.  I definately like this new one.  I "want" to make Ember my #1 most used frame.  But right now im still working on my focus schools which I use different frames for.  Also Valkyr may not have been my 1st love, but its like she loves me and that is hard to resist.  

--------------------------------

REWORK WISHLIST

  1. MAG = She just needs a tweek,  I have 2 builds for my Mag.  One for Duration/strength to use Pulse.  One for Range/strength to use Crush.   I dont really use magnetize ever.  But I need something to get tweaked to give Mag damage reduction.  Without it she is worthless in high level content.  Or what would be cool is if her passive made her shields hardened shields and gave her shields 90% damage reduction.  That would synergize with her abilities, and augur mods (not that I can fit any augur mods)
  2. NEKROS = change soul punch to something helpful,  change terror to make enemies run TO nekros or get stunneed in place,  Change shadows so they arent a visual nightmare and shot blocker. 
  3. ATLAS = change his wall to be more of a CC ability.  give them a range in which they draw ALL aggro,  Or 100% draw the aggro of X amount of enemies.  They draw aggro a little bit as is but it needs to be stronger.  

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Yeah... lets see.. I can spend X energy on 3 fireballs or clear the room with a single press of 4.   Fireball never gets used.  In fact, I didn't use it even when levelling up because I'd miss too often and waste energy that could be used for other things.

Being a bigger projectile (wide hit box) with innate punch-through that ignites everyone it touches might do it.  Or might not.  😁

 

 

Edited by Krenlik

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I drew my ideas about Vauban as much as I can. It’s probably contains wrong grammar because I’m not native English speaker.

I know that this thread is already off topic which mean DE won’t care much but I wanted to share my ideas and I wish DE will watch this.

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There is already plenty of things in the game that suggests they don't really plan on reworking damage scaling. Adaptation and increasingly more and more ways of getting % damage reduction or hard cc+armor strip either by reworks or new frames are the obvious ones.

Another one that seem to be relatively going under the radar is stacking flat armor. You can get 90% damage reduction literally in ANY frame, regardless of base armor. Pair that with adaptation and yeah... So it's looking like every frame will have a way of using one of these crutches one way or the other.

 

I won't say her rework was a success because there is plenty of questionable and annoying things they introduced, but it sure made her very viable for higher level content with the right synergies. But people can't say it's bad either because I've been doing long arbitrations with her every day, often with the highest damage as well. 

The biggest problem with her rework is that it requires people to tinker a bit instead of using garbage builds from youtubers(one could make the case it was an amazing rework in that regard, if it wasn't for the brain dead community)

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