(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

[Djego27]

Playing mostly Ember since 2014, I expected this rework to be not good and DE did not disapoint in that prediction.

I did read up about overheat a long time ago, always asking myself why somebody would trade the ability that makes Ember hit as hard as Chroma at high levels for a fairly unimpressive damage reduction. Now that I seen the result, the question mark just got bigger.

Ember as Tank:
 

Ember tanks less then comparable tanks and does less damage. Futhermore all other tanks have fairly convient and predictable mechanics, not bound to a heat meter that does not react predictable and spamming your 3 for as little as CC Ember still has basically lets you stuck with 50% damage reduction. On top of it the frame is more energy heavy then ever making it even worse at higher levels where you constantly run into energy leech eximus units. I actually, 40 minutes into MOT solo, did wish back my CC on Ember, given that the frame did feel way more survivable with that.

Ember as damage dealer:

Well with the changes you did set a statement that Ember should no longer be a damage dealer. That is fair, but has the nerf to be that drastic? Essetionally you did, beside making Ember a impactical energy hog at high levels, basically you did remove 80% of Embers weapon damage(even far more if you talk about team based setups). You made status weapons, that gave Ember incredible strong damage and utility at high levels becomming incredible ammo inefficent and low kill speed weapons, because you removed what gave this weapons her punch. You also removed Embers AOE CC down to spamming fire blast, what makes the frame just as impractical to defend exacavators, pods and so on, what futher dimishing Ember compared to other options that do similar like the current Ember close to no CC but better damage.

Keep in mind that Ember is no longer a frame based around fire weapon damage, so I put corrosive with a 75% damage bonus against ancients on the weapon in the upper picture while the lower one is pure fire damage before the change.

Ember currently even with 200%+ power strength does ok against L80(still fairly energy inefficent) and turns sideways once you go beyond L100 solo, because of the poor energy efficency and the pure lack of weapon damage(her actual strongest point before the rework) against high EHP targets, plus  spamming 3 and 4 gets old very quick for me on the frame and I would trade that in every day of the week for the old WoF(what was mostly CC at high levels) and pressing 2 to shoot stuff with my guns for very high damage.

This damage is certainly not worth a 80% weapon damage nerf on Ember, given that you end up just shooting the stuff at high levels anyway.

Suggestion:

Throw out Fireblast, move Immolation to her 3 ability. add accelerant back as her 2. ability.

Fireball: Add the armor strip to fireball and make it the heat meter drain by 5 on use, so you can use CC without opening yourself up to one shot kill damage at high levels. Also AOE armor removal is stupid in my opinion, especially on a frame that has accelerant to make corrosive/fire weapons vaporise armored targets at any level faster then any other damage frame. Make the armor reduction bound to power strenght in addition to the heat meter, where 200% power stenght should give you 100% armor removal even if the heat meter is just at 50%.

Accelerant:

No effect on the heat meter, does provide 250% fire debuff(pls fix it's effect on bosses when you are at it) if Immolate is turned off, zero if it is turned on. So just basic CC with Immolate on while still providing a option on Ember to do good focus target damage again with Ember at high levels and making the frame less boring to play, giving more build varity on the frame and the weapons and making player skill more impactful on the frame again, given it was one of the last like that in the game at high levels before the rework.

Immolation:

Only remove 20% of the heat meter if you turn it on and off instead of 40% making toggeling a strategic option. Stop the rapid build up after it is on for a bit, instead make it always constant. Remove the drain if you hit 90%, instead increase the cost on Inferno with the heat meter, so you can realistically play with a 90% damage reduction if you do not spam Inferno. In return add a real drain to it, like 5 energy per second(what is still a lot better then Ember is now for energy efficency, given that you can reduce the meter with Fireball instead of spamming Fireblast).

Inferno:

If Immolation is turn off, add a 40% chance(scaling with power strenght) to hit targets with a fire proc(damage can be 100 or less for all I care), stunning them for the normal duration of a fire proc, both on cast and on spreading it. This gives Ember back her CC tool what did set the frame apart form other damage frames at high levels. It should add 1% to the heat meter to the heat meter(scalable with power strenght) for every target you hit and 3% for every target you kill, making the build up quicker, especially on high power strenght builds aiming to switch in and out of Immolation a lot at high levels.

Result should be a frame that is both enjoyable to play for people that liked the old Ember and high level solo gameplay as well as for people that just want to spam 1 and 4 for her damage while keeping the things that made Ember one of your best designed warframes in the hole game for further players that do not like the later to enjoy.

[VentiGlondi]

Ember is too energy hungry considering she requires resource management.

To reach full potential player needs to stay at high heat levels, but the cost of Fire Blast gets in the way. 75 is too costly for how important that ability is.

Warframes like Saryn are capable of reaching more power at less energy cost and without needing to keep track of ability meters.

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[Dempsey_]

14 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Day 2 of Playtesting Ember and I will say my previous thoughts on the rework might've been slightly optimistic and touched by a bunch of disbelief of the idea "This can't be worse".

Here are the issues I've encountered so far:

My thoughts on Fireball haven't changed, here they are for reference

  Hide contents

 

Immolation:

-Damage Reduction isn't the best Survival tool for Ember. The reason people generally requested Ember having some form of DR was because WoF encouraged Ember to be in-between enemies, being surrounded by them as they melted away, now that is no more, the fact that there's more than twice the enemies shooting at her now makes it as DR didn't make a difference.

-The Energy Cost & Drain is high and feels too punishing, I understand the idea is to disallow you to run it forever else the game is too easy, but it feels the energy is simply thrown out the window even when recasting it or Fire Blasting away the heat
 

Fire Blast:

-It's Damage is very lacking for it's 75 Energy cost.

-It is now Ember's only fast CC Ablity with 75 Energy cost.

-The Armor strip is dependent on Immolation's bar.
 

Inferno: Too Useful compared to the rest of her kit, still not good enough.

-Enemies stop spreading the flames upon death, means that if an Enemy is immediately killed there's nothing to spread.

-It's DPS is doubled when the Immolation Bar is at max, or to be more precise it's DPS is halved when you aren't running Immolation at max.

-It's energy cost is 10 per enemy, it simply outclasses Fireball and Fireblast in damage, however with a massive amount of enemies this cost goes way up high, being the most reliable source of damage and choosing to spam it to maximize damage just adds up to the bad side of things
 

The Synergies: These so called synergies should really stop, the ones woven with Immolation on Fire Blast's Armor Strip and Inferno's dps, they stop being Synergies and start becoming Dependencies, forcing playstyles nobody asks for and punishes players for not using them.
 

Summarized: Ember's Ability Costs are too high for the damage they deal, this damage not being enough means more enemies are around, more enemies shooting her is bad and Immolation can't do much about it because Ability Costs are too high.

Suggestions: Here's a bunch whole lot of suggestions of what I believe could or should be applied to help Ember's current state. Warning, very long.

  Reveal hidden contents

Fireball: I stated my Suggestions on the previous spoiler already but here they go

-I strongly suggest increasing the Window timer to a minimum of 4 unmoddable seconds. Doubling the base damage of Fireball and reducing the amount of steps required to Max the Combo so it only reaches up to 4x. Also, reduce the base cost of Fireball and make it increase to 25 upon reaching the Max Combo, maybe 6.25; 12.50; 25?

-Invert the Damage from Area & Direct hit(So that the Area damage values is the Direct one and vice-versa) OR just make it so it's just the Area damage.

-Double the Explosion Area radius. Also, Charging Fireball should increase the Radius of explosion by up to 50%.
 

Immolation: As said previously, the damage reduction it gives isn't worth the loss of continous death around Ember, also it's purpose and reason of being is gone as is WoF, or is it?

-Having this ability Enable "World on Fire" when reaching the maximum heat would make up nicely for the Ever-growing Energy it has, increasing the rate the bursts happen as the ability exponentially increases in Energy cost.

-Remove or Greatly lower the speed at which Fireball & Inferno accelerate the heat increase of the meter. Make it so Immolation increases the heat passively on it's own. Remove it's interaction with Fire Blast, so nothing hinders the growth of the meter. The idea being that it works as an ability of it's own based more on timing but allow it to receive a SLIGHT boost with the rest of her kit.

-Lower Minimum DR to 20 or 25, reason being I understand the intent on the current iteration of Immolation forcing you to have some sort of vulnerability window and not having Ember have a 90% or really high DR at all times, so having it start at 50% or so at all times with a changed energy cost is too easy, too rewarding.

-Reduce Energy Cost to 25, so it slightly matches the initial DR.

The reasoning behind all these changes is allow Immolation to Immolate enemies. It feels really off that Ember can get hotter but all that happens around her is receiving less damage and draining her energy for no added benefit. Making a use for the DR that was needed before the rework by giving her what really could use the most of it, that being WoF, while also locking it behind a "timed activation" and a massive energy drain preventing her running it all day long but still giving you SOMETHING out of burning that energy, unless there's no more enemies around her in which case players would rather choose to disable the ability.
 

Fire Blast: Just make it not as expensive for how valuable it is.

-Remove it's interaction with Immolation so that they behave as abilities on their own.

-Reduce it's energy cost to 50 or 40.

-Make the Armor Strip a Static 75%
 

Inferno: Spreading is key.

-Allow Inferno to also leave a Pyre or Flames that will spread on enemies who pass where meteors landed
   OR
-Allow Inferno's Flames persist even through enemies' death so that they still spread if enemies decide to wander about (or both options really)

-Make the cost Static 100, it still outweighs Fireball's damage in all domains specially if it has the perk to spread at no more than 10 energy per enemy.

-Change the Damage Per Second to it's maximum 700 and make it unaffected by Immolation. Again, synergies being dependencies start to not be nice.

Sorry that this may have been long but the issues with the current Ember are numerous and the current iteration really has very good aspects and ideas, but their execution isn't the best... yet. I just aim to make it not brutally expensive in the energy and remove the dependencies with Immolation, it was bad that Accelerant was VERY necessary to maximize the damage of all of Ember's Abilities, I just really don't want it to happen again.

 

 

 

I only had one thing to mention about your post. Infernos cost stops at 10 enemies, it can target and hit 1000 but you will only ever be charged for 10 enemies or 100 energy. Unmodded of course.

[Djego27]

9 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Theory

Have you done any solo endurance runs with Ember so far where you tested the practically of hitting your targets, 80 minutes into solo survival 8 times in a row with fireball while getting shot by 20 other enemy units in the meantime? I also would disagree on "the heat meter is always at 90%" given that at this point you basically just bleeding energy what is a absolute terrible idea to try to sustain at high levels(given the enemy units hardly drop energy ores at this point anymore).

I can kill this targets quicker with a proper gun on Ember, I could actually kill this targets a mile quicker before the changes with that guns, like that(took about 1 second, killed also everything behind the target, does not use 9 abilites casts to do it, just did need 1 what did affect anything in the area for 20s):

Curently it looks like that, and you kill stuff by shooting them with status weapons, however given that things are like they are, Ember used to actually kill stuff by doing exactly the same a lot quicker before the change, because you still had accelerant:

[NoelleAllogene]

Ember rework is basically a nerf. What looks like a tanky buff actually just a nerf with extra fancy steps. She's too energy hungry without any real payoff with the amount energy she eat every second unless you have zenurik or large energy pizza

I personally still prefer if she's a dedicated glass cannon. I'm sure with heat proc changes, her Accelerant will be more deadly and better utilized than being this half hearted tank.

my suggestion:

1. should remove fireball, because let's be honest, nobody with armor will die after level 30 with fireball. But if you have to keep it because "what kind of fire master can't throw fireball?" logic, let's make the fire carpet last much longer and fire DoT additive and could spread to nearby enemies until the fire or enemy dies.

2. I personally want to throw Immolation away, but I can see why it's there. At least make the DR NOT rising too fast with only 1 fireball shot. Make it steadily rising over time.

3. swap Fire Blast with Accelerant that can lower the overheat gauge. That way, you can add extra damage and keep her tanky.

4. Inferno is a joke. It doesn't counted as heat proc, so the passive skill is doing nothing. I prefer WoF.

Edited November 2, 2019 by dataman88

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Djego27 said:

Have you done any solo endurance runs with Ember so far where you tested the practically of hitting your targets, 80 minutes into solo survival 8 times in a row with fireball while getting shot by 20 other enemy units in the meantime?

Obviously.  And not in your "only level 100" fissure missions either. I actually do Arbitrations.

I also would disagree on "the heat meter is always at 90%" given that at this point you basically just bleeding energy what is a absolute terrible idea to try to sustain at high levels(given the enemy units hardly drop energy ores at this point anymore).

You're not disagreeing, you're just proving the point in my post. It is in fact always reaching 90%.
You just blast the meter away after being at 90% for too long (very obvious). 
I even criticize the energy drain, because it is in fact too high relatively. Actually read my post, N2.

I can kill this targets quicker with a proper gun on Ember, I could actually kill this targets a mile quicker before the changes with that guns, like that(took about 1 second, killed also everything behind the target, does not use 9 abilites casts to do it, just did need 1 what did affect anything in the area for 20s):

Fireball is a one-handed action (not sure if you even know what this means). Just in case, that means you can shoot while casting it.
My test used no weapons, didn't abuse the passive, and has lower power strength than most builds here.
Meaning the damage potential is clearly higher.

You people just need to get over your reactionary ways and realize Fireball is her DPS now, and no, it isn't bad.
I doubt anyone here complaining about damage even knows it actually goes past the 8x multiplier.
DE, just fix the energy drain and have Inferno spread the highest ticking flame proc from a touched enemy, instead of the base fire proc from the ult itself.
If you want to flip a coin between my hours and these people, be my guest.

[Asher74]

I like what you've done with Vauban but I really think his armor buff from bastille need a large buff to duration.  at a base of 10 seconds it is a huge pain to maintain, even with my build running over 250% efficiency.  As many others in this thread have mentioned, Vauban is very energy hungry and you'll often find yourself unable to get the energy required to cast a new bastille to refresh your armor buff, and when you do get a bastille off, it can take a while to rebuild the armor value since your squad tends to shred all the enemies that are being drained.  I think it should have more parity with wisps buff duration which has a base of 30 second.  as it stands, Vauban is forced to sit in his bastille in high level play and micromanage timers which is not nearly as fun and only viable in stationary levels like defense.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

I love Vauban a lot, he’s my second most used frame because I loved taking him to endurance runs. His rework is a great step in the right direction, but he is still facing the same issues as he was before, half of his abilities are useless (Tesla and Minelayer(the only useful thing about minelayer is the overdrive ability everything else is a gimmick)), his energy costs are way to high for the impact they bring to the table, I feel like bastilles energy cost needs to be dropped down to  50 or 60 from 100. Photon strike also needs to be brought Down to 50 energy because vaubans main combo that he NEEDS to spam to amount to anything in a mission is draining his energy too quickly. Sure you could make the argument “oh just pop all the efficiency mods on” but here’s the problem with that, all of his abilities require DR, EF, RG and PS to maximize their benefits. This is ZERO flex with how you build this warframe, there are WAAAAAY to many staple mods and he can’t fit them all, because the staple mods (primes flow, primed continuity, vitality, and natural talent) eat up half of his mod slots, oh and did I mention his cast times are absolutely horrendous? Yeah it takes a solid 10 years for vauban to cast his combo, sure once you get vortex down the photon strike isn’t horrible but when you need a maximum or 3 strikes to kill armor stripped 160 gunners your energy is gone. You’re better off making them float in the air and shoot them. BUT WAIT there’s more! Bastille’s armor strip doesn’t work on enemies that are being cc by other means even when they’re in the ability. So here’s another problem. Vaubans abilities are contradicting each other. “Enemy being zapped by your Tesla and you want their armor gone so you can get a new target for the rolling boi? Well you’ve just been bamboozled kiddo because that orb ain’t movin anywhere because that guy you want dead still has magical space armor that gives them a bagillion more health.

Here’s some positive things that I like.

Bastille armor stripping is amazing

Bastille and Vortex synergies are cool

overdrive is a nice damage boost

The Tesla roller bois are awesome but I want more

I like how bastille can give vauban the stripped armor (just wish the buff had a longer base duration(yes I know the buff can be refreshed))

P.S. Minelayer is still a gimmick but here’s a way to change it :D 

keep overdrive that is great

make it so the boost pad leaves a residual speed buff kinda in the sense of novas worm hole augment (yes and make it effected my duration)

tether ball is straight useless because vortex exists( this is the same problem Vauban had before rework “bastille is just better than vortex”) replace tether ball with a damage midigation ball, this would help his survability and make him not a big ol’squish

Now finally...flechette, okay I personally HATE this ability and I know a lot of other people who do, it’s a Azima ring that’s just worse, atleast the azima had the decency to go in a perfect 360 degree circle. The flechette was like “hey, I wanna be like the azima disk *hits a fat dooby* but I want to shoot nails and never be able to hit the broad side of a barn” and it kinda just sucks at general mobbing. Sure you can make an argument for this too “oh it’s a low cost ability it’s not suppose to slaughter entire rooms” yeah I guess your right Jimmy...but does that explain why it has worse probability of hitting something then Clem who drank a little bit too much greedy milk?? 

Not gonna lie...I don’t really have a fix for this one. I don’t want minelayer to be a 100% buffing ability because that’s just not his theme as a warframe. I feel like if we were to keep flechette then make it work like the azima when it comes to the bullets being fired. I’d personally like to see it replaced with something more practical. But I guess every warframe needs that one mediocre ability XD. 

 

hopefully this feedback helps. Tbh it was more of a S#&$post but there are some elements in here that I pitched to my clan and they agreed with most of them, so who knows maybe DE finds this and takes some notes :P

[Everlasting_Joy]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

Not gonna lie...I don’t really have a fix for this one (referring to the flechette mine). I don’t want minelayer to be a 100% buffing ability because that’s just not his theme as a warframe. I feel like if we were to keep flechette then make it work like the azima when it comes to the bullets being fired. I’d personally like to see it replaced with something more practical. But I guess every warframe needs that one mediocre ability XD. 

 

hopefully this feedback helps. Tbh it was more of a S#&$post but there are some elements in here that I pitched to my clan and they agreed with most of them, so who knows maybe DE finds this and takes some notes 😛

Why not make it have slash-based damage, buff it a bit, and make it like the sentry gun in TF2 where it automatically locks on to a target and shoots at them?

 

Quote

make it (the boost pad) so the boost pad leaves a residual speed buff kinda in the sense of novas worm hole augment (yes and make it effected my duration)

Or make it something like Wisp's haste mote. Give a speed boost to allies, but keep the repelling force against enemies?

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

2 minutes ago, Everlasting_Joy said:

Why not make it have slash-based damage, buff it a bit, and make it like the sentry gun in TF2 where it automatically locks on to a target and shoots at them?

 

Or make it something like Wisp's haste mote. Give a speed boost to allies, but keep the repelling force against enemies?

I personally don’t like the turret idea because this is a fast paced game where staying in one small area kinda hurts you. I like the tracking targets idea and the slash damage but I think it could use some synergy with bastille, like...if flechette is in the bastille then give it a 2x damage boost or something and give it increase status chance or critical chance. I like the boost pad idea a lot actually but I think it’s kinda stealing from wisp too much if that makes sense

[Djego27]

I played the frame like non stop since yesterday while taking 6h for sleep off, so I doubt you have more hours on the frame by now then me.

I also do not see your point about arbitrations, because the enemy units you shoot have the same HP and resistances and Ember would do the same damage there. However I still would be interested in how many times you actually did test your solution, that includes spending 60 energy 6-8 times per minute solo in a actual survival with enemy units L100 and above with Ember. Mostly because it sounds incredible stupid for somebody that actually does high level stuff solo, it would be more fitting to people that turn on god mode in the Simicarium to prove her point...

Quote

Her 3 is always maxed out in endurance, so removing 100% of the armor can be done on command.

Your words, form my own experience by doing 1h+ survivals, this not the case for me as somebody that plays solo survivals on Ember for years. I am disagreeing, because letting it hit 90% is a bad idea for obvious reason, this is from sombody that has large energy restores on a keybind...

I actually do know what a one handed ability is, however I also know that you are bullS#&$ting me right here, because I tested your suggestion in the simcarium and it costs with the drain on the Immulation on my build( 60% duration and 170% efficency) around 90 energy.

This in comparison does cost me no energy at all(because I do not even need to press fireblast to strip the armor), and is just as quick, the reason I complaining is that is multiple times slower then it was on Ember before the rework given that you do no longer have a ability to increase the damage of your weapon, what on a lesser note also removed the ability to pin stuff down biefly for quick headshots.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Djego27

[SpiralSilver]

I really like what you did with Ember and her augments. Really fun to use, the armor strip and and meteor shower combo really well together, but I think there can be some overall improvements:

1) Third ability is a bit expensive for something need to cast so often, I think a 50 base cost would make gameplay less focused on needing a lot of energy at all times.

2) Fireball is very underwhelming compared to the meteor shower in terms of damage, cost and practical use. I would like it more if it had more base range for the explosion as well a higher projectile speed, in addition to a higher damage bonus when immolation is high.

3) Speaking of immolation, can you make the max damage reduction higher? 95 is more than fine. My reasoning for this is simply that Ember probably won't have the full buff all the times due to the energy drain. I personally wouldn't actually mind a 99%-100% damage reduction but with a drain that increases over time once you get to that point, kinda like Valkyr with hysteria. 

 

Onto Vauban! I never really liked or used him much, but now it does feel much better. Bastille and vortex together was something I didn't know I needed so much, and THANKS for giving bastille the armor strip, I didn't even notice until I accidentally oneshot a bunch of bombards while testing the air strike (I also like this one). So here's what I don't like:

 

1) The tesla animation is cool, but I don't really get the limit on 4 balls. It's not so powerful that 5 rollers (or any amount below 100) could capitalize the game and render any opposition useless. I would like it if you could charge the ability indefinitley (or up to some higher cap of your choice) for an energy cost per extra roller, and then release them all at once. I think a couple more balls can fit in the current animation without looking weird, but it doesn't have to reflect how many you actually throw.

2) The tactical balls are a mixed bag again. I like the damage buff and the poor people's vortex (this one should be buffed a bit though). The boost pad is fun but the animation is too long for it to be also useful while moving. I get why it's like this, but I'm not the biggest fan still. The only one I really dislike is the flechette. It shoots nails in random directions that deal very underwhelming damage even when they do connect to something, which is highly unlikely when not thrown in a vortex. Also, why is it there in the first place? The second ability is and has always been based on utility, the flechette orb is not only useless in general, but not compatible with the rest of the set. Personally I would like it more if was some sort of trap like the radiation one Vauban had before. What would get Vauban from an 8/10 to an 80/10 however is a health/energy/ammo dispenser in place of the second ability, or at least somewhere in the set. Just think of it: the ultimate CC and support frame, now also a healer and/or a quick snack dealer when you need it the most. 

 

That's all I can think of, thank you for your hard work and i hope to see some feedback hotfixes in the near future.

[MrFrog9]

Just finished the final sortie today as Ember, alone and (mostly) unarmed (the Spectra was unmodded and used only to pop nullie bubbles)

Here is the "build" (if you can even call something with an empty polarised slot, no reactor or forma, and a pointless aura a build):

Transient Fortitude can be swapped for Intensify if you don't have it, the difference is pretty minimal. Fleeting Expertise is probably mandatory sadly. Augur Secrets isn't strictly necessary but it does bolster her strength a bunch (if you don't run either Transient or Secrets I'm not sure if the build will work for higher content but it should still be fine for starchart trash). No survivability mods bc I couldn't fit any on and tbh they aren't strictly necessary as you still have Immolate for emergencies and the only thing that can really touch you is nullies and Lancers if they get a lucky shot.

If I were to "complete" this build with forma and veggies I'd swap the aura for either Corrosive Projection (to kill armored foes faster) or Enemy Radar (so you can find foes hiding behind walls a bit easier). Energy Siphon could help but I'm not sure if it'll be worthwhile because you need to run Zenurik anyways. I'd add Umbral Vitality and Intensify for extra strength and non-zero survivability, and put either Power Drift, Cunning Drift, or Aviator in Exilus.

(please pardon me for belabouring my point a bit -- I think I've posted about Ember at least 4 times already -- but I'm just baffled that people are apparently struggling with her to the extent that they are)

E: I'd also like to point out that I didn't bother putting arcanes on her lol

Edited November 2, 2019 by MrFrog9

[GreyEnneract]

You still don't know that the drain amount isn't capped instantly upon reaching 90%, by your own admission.
You still don't know that Fireball surpasses the 8x multiplier.
You still hide your enemy testing levels in bad faith.

The level you did show in a single photo have you struggling, about to die with low LS against level 100s, nefariously showing a tick of 1400 damage when the enemy still has armor.
Even with your first screenshot, and all my handicaps in place, the heat ticks I have are just 5k damage away from your Boar Prime Crits.

If you want another reply, then you'll have to be a good N2 and address my criticisms of the new Ember for once, instead of complaining about not wanting to use Fireball and your weapon simultaneously against level 160+ enemies (where it's actually needed and where the new Ember is objectively stronger than the old Ember), because she isn't perfect.

Shredding level 100 health pools is not even an issue for weapons, especially once you (specifically you) learn that her 3 can remove all armor.
Reach the veteran table and test against at least levels 150 and above, where health pools are gigantic and her great scaling damage is required.
At actual high levels, enemies die much faster than before, and no one can/has proven otherwise.



 

[DTRaptor]

Vauban's abilities feel better than they used to but he still feels too squishy. In my opinion, Minelayer is still underwhelming as a whole.

 

A change I thought of:

What if Tesla Nervos/Flechette Mines scrapped altogether (They just never felt too useful in actual gameplay.), and give the engineer man some Reth Roller mobile turret knockoffs as his ability 1 (Limited to 1, and then 2 turrets at max rank)?

In place of the Flechette Mines, and to fix his durability issue, how about some Armor Pads? A pad that increases armor and shield capacity for a timed duration when activated, and refreshable for a limited number of charges, as well as stripping shield/armor from enemies that step in the radius.

 

Proposed tweaks to other abilities:

Aside from that, the Speed Pad/Overcharger Mines should be timed buff pads to make them a lot more useful overall. Overcharger just costs too much for so little of a buff, and for only one ally at a time. Orbital Strike needs more range and a faster charge up. I'd also prefer if Bastille granted an immediate armor buff instead of the ramp-up, even if it provided less armor to compensate.

[Everlasting_Joy]

1 hour ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

I think it’s kinda stealing from wisp too much if that makes sense (referring to my changes to the boost mine.)

Sadly I couldn't really think of any other ideas for the speed booster, but yeah, I see what you mean. I do think a speed booster of some sort is a good idea, but how it's done on Booben as is could use some rework. Your idea of it being like Nova's Worm Hole speed boost is a good idea.

 

One more thing I'll add, I think Orbital Strike could use some kind of rework as well, again. The damage (3K at lvl 30 without any mods on it) might sound impressive, but when my weapons like my Ignis Wraith are in some way shape or form are outpacing it in damage, it makes using it questionable. I'd fix this by having some sort of scale to its damage or maybe allow multiple orbital strikes to hit the ground from one cast. This would allow for some crowd control.

[GreyEnneract]

11 minutes ago, Everlasting_Joy said:

Sadly I couldn't really think of any other ideas for the speed booster, but yeah, I see what you mean. I do think a speed booster of some sort is a good idea, but how it's done on Booben as is could use some rework. Your idea of it being like Nova's Worm Hole speed boost is a good idea.

 

One more thing I'll add, I think Orbital Strike could use some kind of rework as well, again. The damage (3K at lvl 30 without any mods on it) might sound impressive, but when my weapons like my Ignis Wraith are in some way shape or form are outpacing it in damage, it makes using it questionable. I'd fix this by having some sort of scale to its damage or maybe allow multiple orbital strikes to hit the ground from one cast. This would allow for some crowd control.

It's not listed anywhere on the ability or in the tips, but Photon Strike scales per enemy level. 
I still agree that the DPS of the ability is too low though, considering the small area and the time to strike.
These enemies are 165, their armor removed with Bastille, hitting for 65,875 (at 124% power strength for testing).


I'd recommend to DE making it scale to deal the base damage (2,500) every 2 levels.
Making it hit these level 165 enemies for ~205,000 at base power strength, without factoring in the passive.
Usually that number would be absurd for DE, but considering that it's such a small AoE I see it as justified.

[Borg1611]

I had suggested this right after the re-work was previewed, but I figured I'd re-state it here since I still think it would be a better system:

I feel like the meter would feel more interesting if it were a meaningful choice of whether you wanted to stay at low heat, high heat or balanced it out somewhere in the middle. 

To do that, you would remove the energy drain mechanic entirely and instead make it so that the meter STARTS at 90% DR but loses DR the higher you go in heat. As you go higher in heat, you instead gain some other buff(s) like energy cost reduction, cast speed and/or damage %. The idea there is then that low heat is tanky but weaker damage ouput, where high heat turns you into a glass cannon where you can cause devastating damage but become fragile. 

Depending on how you do it, her 3 could naturally become cheaper when at high heat if you gain efficiency as the meter increases. If not I'd also reduce the energy cost of her 3 still. I also think toggling her 2 off should cause an explosion or detonation around her as your unleash all your heat at once. That also would let you instantly go back to higher DR in an emergency. I think it would also be a nice QoL change if you make tapping immolation simply release all heat and restart the meter without having to press the ability twice. Add a long-press to disable it entirely. 

I also mentioned in my suggestion that if you wanted to make the high heat buff especially meaningful and powerful, you could also make the negative aspect more impactful where it not only reduces the DR from immolation (removing it entirely at full heat), but it could also add a penalty to external DR sources like adaptation and other frames DR buffs so that staying at max heat would always be dangerous, even in groups. As a tradeoff, the max heat buff could then be especially powerful with high efficiency (letting you cap efficiency at high heat even in a negative efficiency build, possibly even letting the efficiency from this ability go past 75% to some higher cap) + maybe high casting speed and/or some other way in which is buffs her damage.

This way the meter is much more interesting and meaningful and has more choice in where you want to try to keep your heat level. 

-----

And just to reiterate about fire blast, it really needs to be changed in how it removes armor since even a high % armor removal can be crap vs. high level grineer until you remove it entirely (which means you have to have 100% strength + be at full meter currently). Either making it hit 100% armor removal at a much lower level on the meter OR making the armor removal based on MAX armor and not current armor would be nice. 

I could also see redesigning it a bit from its current form and say making its armor stripping effect also apply to any enemy under the effects of your other abilities at any range. Maybe calling it flare (or baking that into the existing ability as a secondary effect) saying casting it causes enemies affected by inferno to flare up, reducing their armor.

[Kalvorax]

On 2019-10-31 at 11:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

IMMOLATION (replacing Accelerant)
Time for a history lesson! Prior to Update 11.5, Ember’s second ability used to be “Overheat”, offering an aura of heat damage which also protected her from enemy fire. Almost SIX years later, it’s time for this ring of fire to come full circle.

When cast, Ember Immolates herself with protective fire armor. Her current level of self-Immolation is indicated by a unique UI indicator; the higher the heat, the more damage resistance, and the more effective Ember’s other abilities become.

The Immolation meter will build slowly at first - using Ember’s Fireball or Inferno causes the meter to build faster. But be warned! If the meter reaches maximum, Ember will “overheat” and Immolation will cost progressively more energy per second the longer you stay in an overheated state. To prevent this from happening, use Fire Blast to expel a portion of your heat meter, or toggle Immolation off to reset meter build.

I do enjoy this, though I think it REALLY needs to be affected by the energy regen from zenurik and energy orbs from its passive. Considering how quickly it can refill when running it, the energy drain is insane, particularly with casting other abilities.

I also DESPISE the reliance on togglable Survival abilities NOT having a static drain....but one that RAMPS UP OVER TIME WITH NO INDICATION OF IT IN THE ABILITY NOTES

On 2019-10-31 at 11:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

FIRE BLAST
Casting time has been greatly reduced, and the ability now strips armor from nearby enemies. The amount of armor removed scales in effectiveness based on current Immolation levels. On cast, this immediately reduces your Immolation level by up to half.

its nice, BUT its either bugged or Imolation is bugged....it either NEEDS to ignore LOS or Imolation needs to respect LOS, not either/or.

I honestly am finding Ember to be a TON more fun, though I feel like her 1 should be changed to the full charge at all times, with a hold to toggle a flame like gout of fire..

Edited November 3, 2019 by Kalvorax

[Borg1611]

4 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

but I'm just baffled that people are apparently struggling with her to the extent that they are

I think that's because you're confusing negative feedback about the mechanics as people "struggling." 

Not liking the way the meter works or finding fire blasts armor stripping mechanics clunky doesn't mean you couldn't do a sortie with her if you felt so inclined.

When you have every frame in the game, choosing to use frame X for mission Y isn't just a question of "could I do this with this frame?" It's mostly about whether you enjoy the mechanics of the frame or not or in some cases if a mission is actually annoying, which frame makes it less annoying. 

The main issue with this re-work is the meter mechanic is a half-baked idea that isn't fun or interesting. Her 1 isn't really that fun and doesn't serve much of a purpose. Her 3's armor strip mechanic is clunky and doesn't work well in a variety of builds vs. high level grineer since you have to have a full meter + 100%+ strength in order for it to strip all armor and leaving even a small % of armor can still be a lot of DR (and a subsequent cast of fire blast won't remove the rest unless you meet the same requirement as before since it's based off current armor rather than max). Some feedback is simple QoL improvement ideas that have nothing to do with difficulty IE: make tapping her 2 just reset the meter rather than having to double tap it to turn it on and off then make a long-press turn it off. 

None of the feedback has been "sorties would be too hard in her current state," it's "this doesn't feel great to play and could be improved in the following ways." 

[MrFrog9]

further/final observations on Ember:
- The heat gauge does not impact the damage of Inferno's initial hit and corresponding stackable heat proc, at all. It only increases the damage of the persistent fire swirl afterwards, which is relatively weak and cannot be stacked, only refreshed. Thus, Immolate can generally be considered irrelevant to Inferno's use. (As a side note, it appears that Pablo's latest solution to flat damage not scaling well is to just make the damage so obscenely high that it doesn't matter. How elegant.)
- You can boost Immolate's build rate for free by using Inferno with no enemies in view (looking straight down generally works but might not, see below; looking into a corner is probably the most consistent). Inferno only costs energy when it targets an enemy but will cast anyways even if there is nothing to hit, and just casting it will significantly increase Immolate's heat rate even if no enemy is targeted.
- Inferno's LoS check is incredibly lenient, and will often hit enemies even when they are very clearly offscreen or obstructed. (I have a clip of this happening but I'm too lazy to put it up right now, I doubt anyone hasn't noticed this anyways)
- By contrast, Fire Blast's LoS check is extremely strict and will unpredictably fail to hit random enemies because it thinks another enemy is in the way or a small terrain object like a fence was partially obstructing them. This in particular hinders its effectiveness as emergency CC because at high levels a single random enemy not getting bowled over because they were behind a fence is easily enough to get you killed.
- I don't have hard numbers but I am very sure that using Fire Blast to reduce your overheat is less energy efficient than just letting it burn; even with my extremely low duration (25%) build I seem to lose far more energy per second by using Fire Blast every time my gauge fills than I would just letting it burn for a similar duration. Unless you need the armor strip or knockdown, all casting Fire Blast does is waste your energy, waste time, and temporarily reduce your defense. A better option if you're overheating out of control is to just put out Immolation for a moment, which will spend a mere 50 energy and completely reset your meter, setting your damage resist to 50% (which is still significant) after which you are free to resume ignoring the overheat gauge entirely.
- At that, Fire Blast has a base 50% armor strip which considering the overall power of Ember's kit and the fact that burning enemies now have their armor halved is quite enough even for heavies up to mid levels and mooks up to and possibly beyond level 100. While you may need the 100% armor strip for extremely heavily armored targets, for most purposes just casting it raw is sufficient and saves you from having to manage her meter.

Overall I'd say the current state of the new Ember is absolutely abysmal. The gauge management mechanic that's supposed to be the core of her gameplay is badly broken both functionally and economically and not generally worth dealing with, which is exacerbated by the fact that said mechanic is actually for the most part redundant and doesn't need to be dealt with in most situations. There are multiple oversights and exploits in how her abilities work and interact with each other. Inferno is braindead and can carry you through sortie-level missions just by itself. She's not unsalvageable but she will need very significant changes including possibly to some of her moves' basic mechanics before she can function at an acceptable level.

My suggestions:

• Fireball's cost should be lowered on successive casts similarly to Landslide.
• Fire Blast should completely reset meter gain rate and/or cost less energy the higher Ember's heat gauge is.
• Fire Blast's LoS check should be made much more lenient, or perhaps even removed completely.
• Inferno should cost 50* base energy up front to cast, with the energy drain per enemy reduced to 5. Additionally, it should not be castable at all with no enemies in view.
• Inferno's initial hit should scale off of the heat gauge, and only deal its current damage when Ember is overheating.
• Inferno's LoS check should be made much more strict.

These changes will fix the heat gauge's economy and integrate it more into Ember's gameplay. Fireball will become much more efficient at its intended purpose of dealing with small groups and single powerful enemies instead of being overshadowed entirely by Inferno. Using Fire Blast to reduce her gauge as is the intent will become worthwhile and the move will be more consistent when used offensively. Inferno will become more of a commitment and require more strategy.

Hopefully this will be my last post on the subject; I spent all of the past 2 days aggressively breaking this frame as hard as possible and am burned out (hue hue). I'm probably gonna play something else until my Grendel finishes cooking.

Edited November 3, 2019 by MrFrog9
realised 25 energy would be way too low

[MrFrog9]

5 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

None of the feedback has been "sorties would be too hard in her current state," it's "this doesn't feel great to play and could be improved in the following ways." 

Some of the feedback does legit seem to be people having trouble playing as her; if that's not what your criticism is then it wasn't directed at you. That said, that comment was indeed not classy and I apologise.

[Borg1611]

Just now, MrFrog9 said:

Some of the feedback does legit seem to be people having trouble playing as her; if that's not what your criticism is then it wasn't directed at you. That said, that comment was indeed not classy and I apologise.

NP, I didn't read the entire thread or all your posts so I was taking that post as a "ember is fine" type of post, which apparently isn't what you were saying based on your next post. 

[MrFrog9]

Just now, Borg1611 said:

NP, I didn't read the entire thread or all your posts so I was taking that post as a "ember is fine" type of post, which apparently isn't what you were saying based on your next post. 

it's g lol, if anything I'm exaggerating how bad she is

[doommoose22]

Overall enjoying vauban's new skill set, the only thing that I would personally change is adding a movement speed modifier thats tied to range for his 1 so that the drones can actually get around and do their job