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[DE]Danielle

(PC) Ember & Vauban Revisited Feedback

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   This post will be for Ember because I don't have vauban and I'm assuming the train can cover him just fine and actually get noticed. Bear in mind I can't really go that far into survival or any endless mission because nobody stays that long. It's really infuriating but I'll have to base my stuff off the simulacrum. I'll primarily be focusing on comparing ember to Saryn, Gara, and Chroma as they share the most similarities to ember.
   The build I used for this post is 73% PD // 175% PE // 145% PR // 179 PS with Adaptation, Immolated Radiance, no arcanes, and no exilus with Energizing Dash. Any aura works for my build. I don't own any other augments but I can still comment on them. Just so players can test out the build and know where I'm coming from. 

   Fireball is both better and worse then it was before but why remove the napalm effect? Napalm was literally the only reason fireball was used besides it's augment to CC small doors. The confusing thing is It even shows the napalm effect in her ability video so why the last minute change? The ability is terrible as it is and sure you can kill unarmored LvL 100 enemies with... 4 fireball casts. Good number right? how many casts does it take for octavia to kill a room? 1, and she can even dance while doing it. I'm not asking for an octavia but ember's fireball should be increased in range and I've got an idea for that.
   The window for fireball should also be significantly larger to 3-4 seconds and it should also pause the window should you charge fireball. This is because fireball feels like the game is forcing you to spam the fireball. You aren't nidus so there's no reason for such a small window. It's like the ripline window, it makes no sense why it's so short. She doesn't get stacks up to 100 like nidus, only 8X and even then the damage is only noticeable on unarmored targets. The fireball 2X 4X and 8X should affect the explosion and ignite radius of fireball because without napalm it's not all too hot. Sometimes enemies won't even catch fire for whatever reason. Charging the fireball should also increase it's range.
   The augment I actually sort of like now as it mixes with her passive. But the issue with this thing is Saryn has better status types, more status types, and she's got it by default. Another problem is that getting fire damage to weapons is less useful now because CO was taken down a peg. Ember's elemental buffing potential fell because now almost nobody runs condition overload.
   I would also like it if ember's fireball had some synergy if she hit an enemy within the firestorm from her ultimate like causing a massive detonation or something.

   Immolation is really helpful and thanks for taking either mine or shy's idea for ember to blow up after an overheat bar. Personally I'd still prefer a meltdown mode and a way to go above 90% but it is what it is. The energy drain is fine if you're smart about it and I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I was constantly able to keep up my energy by only using energizing dash. Players with energize have it easier and can even run - efficiency builds. Staying at max overheat for 6s is fine allowing you to keep high damage reduction when needed and it prevents players from spamming her ultimate. My issue is the synergy between this and fire blast.
   Something I would like to see changed is the sign to show you've hit 90% immolation. I personally think it's fine as it's much better than valkyr's 1-100%. But perhaps maybe burning flames around the screen would be a nice addition? 
   The augment is cool and all but I can't help but feel a bit irritated at the upkeep for the reward. This is an augment right? it's not cheap beause it's a full mod slot. Well why can gara give her allies AND objectives 90% damage reduction, but this can't. I would understand if it prevented status effects but it doesn't. If someone is looking for a damage dealing tank then Gara is by FAR the better option and doesn't require an augment for it. Plus gara has a much better 1 and 3 then ember given their similarities. Make this able to go up to 90% or give it some sort of cleansing ability.

   Now the fireblast... this should not cost energy for what it does. If anything it should be costing heat only like what brozime said. This would mean players have more energy to use on fireball. If you're serious about needing this to have an energy cost 50 energy is what this should be. The only noticeable thing this ability does is knock down enemies. but it can strip armor? Well Saryn can "kiss" fully armored LvL 100 corrupted gunners with 2 strikes from a kronen prime now without viral or armor strip. Why should I have to wait upwards of 6 seconds to strip armor to kill an enemy when saryn can not only just passively infect everything in sight and even slaughter enemies with armor.
   Worse then that, why does Guass still have a better fire blast? He isn't the fire warframe so why can he strip armor with fire on a whim and ember cannot. But it's worse because Guass not only has better heat, but he has 2 abilities in one, then can blow enemies sky high for insane damage.
   Another idea for fire blast is to make it a catalyst. Make enemies burning from fireblast to suffer 25% longer duration, 25% more heat damage, 25% armor melting, and 25% faster heat DoT. This would encourage synergy between it and Fireball/Inferno That would also justify the cost and be a nice way to bring back acellerant in a useful form.
   Healing flame sounds great on paper but in reality, people have operators for this. Operator Arcanes, Healing Return, Rejuvination, and other sources. Now something that would be better is if Healing Flame made enemies burning drop health globes. This would encourage not only health orb arcanes but also health conversion furthering her as a tank but also being a support at the same time.

   Inferno... WELL THIS IS A THING lol. DE nerfed embers world on fire to stop low level mission killing, and now it's back. Just the other day an ember destroyed all of an earth exterminate with nothing but her four. Now I'm NOT saying nerf it it's fine and I honestly don't care. I can get angry at saryn's stealing all the kills in ESO, Ember eating exterminates, but it's how that player chooses to play and have fun. I've learned that. More often then not I find that skill can still let me, as a banshee mind you, be competitive with these warframes. While grinding up my old favorite the bo prime, I kept up in damage from 2 embers so it's fine and players need to get over it. As trib said certain missions have a biased for certain frames so just get over it I guess. Leave if you don't like them or stay if you don't mind.
   Inferno a really cool concept but I've seen several flaws with the ability. See if you build for high duration, to keep the fire damage ticking longer, then the fire storms will expand much slower. I thought that ok maybe if range doesn't increase the area of the storms, duration will, like nova. Well that didn't work either. Reguardless of duration and range you always end up with a 5m radius. This means strength and efficiency are all ember cares about that that's true for all of her abilities.
    Flaw 2 is that Inferno isn't real fire. I constructed a test. Inferno shows enemies surrounded in flames so they have to be ignited right? Nope, that's just normal DoT, not heat DoT. This means Inferno doesn't synergize with SPICY or CO. Just read this and you'll see what I mean. "Recieve 5% ability strength for every enemy within affintiy radius engulfed in flame" Well, this is what Inferno says. "Command a flaming comet to crash down in front of ember, engulfing enemies with a fire that can spread through their ranks." Yeah it engulfs them but it doesn't count towards her SPICY passive which is depressing because this is by far the best way to maintain Ember's passive.
   Flaw 3 is that fire storms poofs out of existence when the host dies. Is there any way to make the fire storms around enemies stay for the remaining duration of Inferno to help spread the flames that aren't fire? If your allies kill the enemies you want to have spread the fire then you've just wasted an ability and energy.
   Lastly, there's lost of visual data flooding the screen with Inferno. Whenever an embers in my mission I can't melee or else I risk being radial blinded by the sea of particles that form rainbows and rocks. You can't even see the enemy again until a full second has passed. I also have a hard time seeing which enemies are actually on fire when looking at them from a top down perspective. Compare this to say Volt's Discharge and it's pretty clear this needs some visual work. I know 3d fire is hard but we kinda need it now.
   The Augment is where I have the most issues. This augment doesn't really feel that helpful because both arcanes and operators can supply us with energy. If you're smart energy isn't needed and even if it was 15% isn't enough to justify wasting a mod. Want to know why? Not only are there warframes that give you energy like trinity, harrow, and limbo or what not, but you've got arcanes and focus schools for energy. In my opinion a better augment for this would be to extend the duration for the amount of enemies caught in the explosion and enemies that catch "fire". This way the origonal targets remain in fire storms longer. Saryn's spores work the same way by refreshing the viral duration. Theoreticly one set of spores is all saryn needs in the entire mission. Ember's fire storms should work the same way. 

   Overall I can say with confidence ember did improve. In my eyes she's been remade as a brawler, someone who can take damage and dish it back out. Ember can be built as a tank but she still sorely lacks the damage potential to compete against saryn, chroma, and gara. I would say she's become a weapon specialist but she really isn't. To be a half passable weapon specialist, Ember requires an augment. If an ability needs an augment to become viable in any situation, then the ability should have just been buffed. Her abilities can't even be used as a catalyst anymore either like accelerant, molecular prime, and sonor. She needs work but this is a phenomenal starting point for her.

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My issues with the vauban rework,

His one takes too long to activate. It should be instant, like wisps' buff.

His two is not very useful. The flechette is a joke and is filler. The boost pad is only for memes and has no real use. His damage buff is the only useful grenade for this ability. The rest is just inconvenience. His other 2 with the cheap cc is good but needs to be expanded on. Needs to grab more enemies. Maybe instead of flechette give him a frontal shield or something to protect his squishy self.

his orbital laser takes too long to throw and even longer to actually activate. All the enemies are dead to my team-mates by the time that I armor strip and throw it.

his 4 animation also takes too long to throw.

Vauban is very energy hungry and he just does everything way too slowly. This is a fast paced game. He could use some quality of life changes.

Edited by ChevalierDuNord
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Please REMOVE ability strength requirement for Bastille. In the end for sortie levels, booben is still the same as pre-rework booben, but the the ability strength requirement is gone, at least he will be somewhat a little bit more useful. Also please REMOVE ancient disruptor invulnerability to booben's skill. It's the only thing he's good for and Ancient Disruptor aura covers half the map.

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I dont know if this will ever get read...but lets give it a try.

Overall i like the Vauban Rework, he is more usable now than before, but sadly the main problems were still not adressed. His survivability and flow.#

The new Animations look nice, but they are so insanely slow. With Natural Talent they are good to use, but without? If the base speed would be like that, then it would be good. But currently it just doesnt feel like Vauban anymore with his one-handed casting.

Tesla Nervos is neat. The Augment is also pretty fun to use. Some say that it outclasses Photon Strike, but for that you need to deal that damage first. So i stay with the scaling damage from Photon Strike.

Minelayer is still trash. Sorry.
Tether would be great, if the amount of targets would scale with Strength.
Flechette needs some form of Utility. It is outclassed by just shooting an Enemy instead.
Speed Pad...really? It has no use at all. No one "walks" anymore. Movement abilities like Excals Jump were removed for a reason, so why is there a need for a static, ground based movement ability? A two-way teleport pad would have been a movement ability that i would actually use (if it has unlimited duration, like Wisp´s)
Overdrive nice on Paper, buffing Damage...sadly not for Abilities. It would be a great tool to give him that extra bit of Oomph that he needs now besides Range, Duration, Efficiency...but only buffing Weapon Damage? Why? We deal overkill damage anyway. Its our Abilities that usually need more power.

Photon Strike is great, i love it. The Visuals are nice and the damage is ok...sadly here we can notice the Armor Problem again. It is great against Corpus and Infested, but totally stinks against Grineer. Also i wish the corpses would be scorched...also i dont know why i would use its Augment. I cant use it against the same group because of the delay. So its only really usable to "bank" one Strike for later...but usually i have enough Energy by then to cast it anyway.

Bastille/Vortex the Buff to both Bastille and Vortex is great. Armor Stripping is neat, and the added range and duration for Vortex is nice to have too. The Armor Buff is nice, but Vauban is still too squishy to notice that. So it doesnt really matter if it is there or not.

So...Minelayer could really need another look...hopefully not in another 6 years.

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Minelayer feedback.
Tether Coil:
Strength to increase max targets.
Flechette Orb: Radiation proc is a better choice than puncture procs. / Or swap this ability out for a shield.
Vector Pad: Enemies should be disarmed after being thrown that fast across the room.
Overdriver: Pretty good as it is.

The reason I'd swap out Flechette is because;
1) It doesn't do the best damage compared to his other abilities
2) It doesn't have radiation and if I really needed radiation I could always put it on a status weapon
3) Most people I've spoken with would prefer a shield of some sort or a drone that follows you granting damage resistance in some form.

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vauban 3rd needs to be faster...why there is such a long delay?

Ember 4th inferno effect needs to proc traditional heat proc per tick to further increase her heat proc dmg and make heat proc last longer

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On 2019-11-01 at 3:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Vector Pad lays down a walk pad, granting a boost of speed in a chosen direction (indicated by arrows). Players must be moving in the same direction as the pad to receive a boost, while enemies are affected no matter which way they wanted to go.

Vector pad itself is quite good but deploying animation is too long so it can't serve as agility assist

It should be more powerful match to it's heavy animation.

Edited by T_erry

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I tend to agree with a lot of the Ember feedback.  Fireball just doesn't seem all that useful or even practical to use.  The only time I really use it is when I need to attack something while I am in the middle of reloading.

The bigger problem is her 2 and 3.  Her 2 is fine, if not for the complete energy loss on overheating.  That is overly punishing.  Forcing you to either cast her 3 to reduce heat when it is not otherwise needed, or to completely turning it off is a bad decision, and certainly not fun.  Worse is when you don't have enough energy to use your 3.  The cost is simply too high and the consequence for overheating is far too harsh.  Having to cast your 3 in an empty room simply to prevent you from overheating and losing all of your energy is ridiculous.  Not to mention the many times that the acceleration at the end caused me to overheat without realizing, only to find that my power was now at zero. 

I like her gameplay, but that overly convoluted mechanic brings the fun factor down considerably. 

 

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I'm loving Ember Rework so far!

Vauban is really well done, too. Though I don't feel comfortable playing him since Vauban is one of the Warframes who lack survivability.

Ember Prime is my 2nd most used Warframe ever, I got her Prime variant WAY before getting normal Ember, her Accelerant CC was enough survivability for me.

So I have been playing the New Ember for a bit and there are some "Things I feel are a little off":

 

1.) Energy Rate.

Spoiler

 I have been playing Ember for so long that I still feel like she has a way of gaining energy by herself, she lost the "+Energy Rate while on Fire", which is fine but still.

 I think she could use some kind of Energy Gain, Gauss has his Kinetic Plating which is very similar to Immolation and rewards him with energy so in the end Ember feels a bit off.

 I mean... Yeah, I have Zenurik + Energize but it's just something I feel like Ember is missing, since she had something similar and now is gone, youknowwhatamsaying?

 

2.) Immolation.

Spoiler

 Very good concept! Adding Adaptation mod on top of the Damage Reduction helps Ember a lot.

 

 Now, let's talk about the ability, the fact that the Meter displays the Damage Reduction and not the actual fill % is very misleading. Damage reduction is 90% for me so the Meter stops at 90% while I'm looking to see if I'm at 100% and Overheating.

 I have been playing Mech Games for a few years now and I feel like Immolation Meter could use some tweaking to make it more interesting and controllable 😄

 First, it shouldn't go up by itself, Instead it should very slowly decrease.

 By casting Fireball / Inferno the meter should instantly raise by X amount.

 This would give the player many other options and encourage to try and keep Immolation up instead of simply disactivating the ability to reset because the heat is going up like crazy, also by reducing Fire Blast's energy cost (75 Base) lower or to the same level as Immolation's casting cost (50 Base) this would be another reason why use Fire Blast instead of Deactivating Immolation and reactivating it again. 

 Being Ember a Warframe that is played very aggressively, right now I can multi-cast Fireball and then have the Heat keep going up like if Ember was submerged in lava, It takes 4-5 Fire Blast casts to make the heat stable again, In the end I need to reset Immolation or use a lot of energy in Fire Blasts.

 By making it work like this the player could have more Control over the Heat Generated, Casting Fireball (Idea on Fireball listed below) to keep the heat up for more damage output and all that other good stuff.

 Of course Overheating would be more unlikely this way if played carefully, but if something is done about Fireball (Hold Cast to throw multiple Fireballs in rapid succession, as listed below) to make it possible to reach a certain % on the Heat Meter, Overheating would become a "Imma have to Overheat and deal a lot of damage and throw a Fire Blast somewhere right after that Inferno".

 With this system, since you are the only responsable for Overheating by casting Fireball / Inferno because the Heat is no longer going up on its own, Overheating punishment can also be changed to drain energy based on how much "Over the Red Line" you are, Say Overheated Threshold is 100% but you can store up to 200% heat which determines how much energy you lose per second. Meaning if played carefully and well planned you can still hit the Red Line and throw a Fire Blast in there as you see fit to cooldown, of course as long as you don't go that way up Over the Red Line.

 

3.) Fireball.

Spoiler

 For me Fireball uses 7.5 energy, for something that is encouraged to be multi-casted because of the new damage multiplier and the "stackable Heat Procs?", it is a little too much.

 If we compare it to how much energy Ember's ultimate uses now, Inferno uses 3 energy per target for me, add to this the fact that Fireball has a short splash range which is about 2-3m, It is true that you wont be multi-casting Inferno but it feels well spent to use energy for casting Inferno and not Fireball in any situation.

 

 You know? I had a dream, I was actually hoping to see a new casting mechanic for Fireball, as soon as I read "Tap for quick fire" on the Update notes, Vegeta's one-hand attack pose from Dragon Ball came to my mind. I truly thought that dream was real, It was so real I could taste it, I really thought you could cast Fireballs really REALLY fast just for the giggles... Why do we even have a charge Fireball? With my 88% Duration I can't Hold it and cast it before the Multiplier window runs out.

 Digital Extremes, Can we have Ember's Fireball be hold down for super crazy casting speed? Pretty sure that would make more than one happy...

 With this and the Immolation tweak, While you are holding down the key to cast multiple Fireballs in super rapid succession to increase it's damage output to its max, you are quickly raising the Immolation heat meter and most likely going to overheat if not careful :smirk:

 

4.) Fire Blast.

Spoiler

Energy Cost on the Fire Blast is the only problem I see with it.

Pairing it with Immolation's energy cost would be awesome for reasons explained in the Immolation session.

 

5.) Inferno.

Spoiler

 Masterpiece.

 Way more interactive, situational and fun.

 Base range of 25m feels a little short being the ability a "Hit what you can see", this makes you want to get a good visual on the enemies before casting it, like jumping and aiming down, or reaching for a corner to get as many enemies as possible and sadly sometimes you don't have enough range to get those at a lower elevation or by that door over there and whatnot.

 The ability seems to be able to go through most obstacles like doors, boxes, very thin walls, etc. Which is nice!

 

Thank you all so much at Digital Extremes for all these years of entertainment!!

And so sorry for any mispelling lol

Edited by 0meg4x
Clarification

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The Vauban rework was almost great. For starters having Armor stripping on Bastille allows Vauban to effectively take on armored enemies without relying on Corrosive projection. Tesla Banks and Photon Repeater are some of the best augments in the game. Sadly for me that's pretty much where the praise ends for me. From here I'll start listing all of the problems I've seen with Vauban.


1: Tesla Nervos: Its far to slow to actually use, and from what I can see there is no way to mod it to be better. Why is this a problem you ask, simple, for balls that are meant to chase enemies, or follow me around, they are practically useless in that aspect. CC is great, once again Tesla bank is great, especially with the new Bastille. But other than that, its almost never around when you need it, unless you spend more energy to summon them again. To make this a worthwhile ability that doesn't need to be spammed to be useful, speed them up, at least make them close to the base speed, or even modified speed of Vauban.


2: Minelayer, I give a 1/4, a 2/4 of you wanna use insane stats like 269% power strength. On to the criticism:

Tether Coil: Its Cheap decent CC, sadly it only grabs 2 people. To make this better, allow the number of people it can grab to scale with Power Strength. Or better yet, have it as a aoe knockdown instead, just so that its not a cheap weaker Vortex, you know give Vauban some variety in his CC.

Flechette Orb: Useless. How to make it better, make it do slash damage, in fact any damage type that is a DOT would be great for this thing. Also for the future if you when you do make an Augment for Minelayer let one of the changes on it be Tesla Link, but of course changed to whatever DOT status you decided for this Orb. 

Speed Pad: Useless, don’t bother to buff it or anything, just get rid of it. Replace it with what you might be asking, simple, a deployable shield. Why you might ask, because Speed Pad is useless for anything but trolling.”But, but you can use it to fling enemies off the map”, while this may be true, how many maps have ledges where enemies can fall, better yet, why have the fall of the map, when you can use literally any other of Vauban abilities to CC, or Kill them. At least as a Shield it increase his survivability, for however long it may last.

Overdriver: Literally the Only useful ability in this minelayer, sadly for me personally at least, it gets overshadowed by other problems with Vauban


Photon Strike: Oh boy what can I say but except I don’t like it. Why, because its clear that DE wanted this ability to be spammable. Only problem is that

 1: It takes forever for it to be fired, not forever, but you can literally kill enemies with anything we have in our arsenal in the time it takes for it to strike

2: Cast time is way to long, leaving you vulnerable to be attacked. Yea you can bullet jump, but just like with Speed pads, not all maps can accommodate this, and on top of this, if you want to use it as a faster pace you need Natural Talent, and with the other Mods you need for Vauban, its kinda tough to add it.

And lastly 3: Tesla Bank exists. Now don’t misunderstand I’m not asking for a nerf to Tesla Bank, but rather a buff to Photon Strike, for starters change it from a spammy ability, to a nuke, not like Saryn, but a single spot nuke where it just does a bunch of damage in a single spot

Along with the change I suggested you can also change the damage type from Blast to Radiation. Now this change will also require a change to the augment seeing how you wouldn’t want a strong ability like this to be to used with literally no energy cost. For starters it can live a patch of radiation on the ground that will CC enemies even further. Or follow what the current Augment does, but instead of energy cost, have it increase power strength, or range, or have it reduce the cost of the ability, not to zero, but still by a considerable amount so that its worth using. 


So now we're here, at the end, lets go. Bastille, it works great, same for vortex, no problems here, except for the fact the small bit that it suffers greatly for the fact that the numbers that comes with it are kinda sad. By numbers I pretty much mean the values on the abilities, IE range, armor strip values, duration, and so on. In fact this can be seen all across of Vauban skills, which is probably the reason why Photon Repeater even exist. For starters, why does this skill still cost 100 energy, why does the ability that seems like you want to spam it to be good cost 75 energy. 

Now I don’t want to sound like I’m attacking someone, or calling them out, but really now with abilities like these that are normally spammed, having the cost so much energy hurts. Now of course you can make a build with Energy Efficiency involved, but when doing that you start to run into another problem that I mention before. Mod availability.

Vauban mod space is pretty tight. For starters there’s survivability, if you don’t want to Die as Vauban you’ll of course need survival mods, Vitality/Primed Vigor and of course Adaption. That's 2 mods right there, it is kinda standard for most frames though. Next as of what we have now you’ll need Natural Talent, that's now 3 mods, next you’ll need Power strength, you know to increase the damage values, and armor stripping. Depending on what you want that can be around 1-3 mods, for this will stick with 1. Next is of course efficiency, so we are now up to 5 mods, we are now 5/8 available mod slots. Next is range, once again depending on how much you wants that's about 1-3 mods, and again we’re just gonna stick with 1, so now we're at 6. Next is duration, same as strength and range, so now we’re at 7. Last spot is all up to you, but for me, I prefer more energy. So now were are at 8/8, but wait you say, there's the Exilus slot. Yea, yea, that slot can be used for more movement, or a tiny bit more of whatever you need, like strength, range, or less cast time. Now with the mods I’m using, everything is going to be in the positive, there should be a picture of what that is

 

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Now this is the Main problem I have with Vauban, even with good Ideas and stuff for his abilities, or good synergies, we certainly have those now with the rework. Literally none of the values you get when modding can compliment them to make it good. Example: Bastille/Vortex range, yea its cool and all, but at base values its only at 12m to grab enemies, can hold 12 it cost 100 energy, and it only strips amour with a rate of 10% per sec and last for 15 seconds. Now you use the mods I’m using, and with that we get a duration of 23 seconds, range of 14.5m, can hold 17 enemies. 14.5% of armor stripping, and a drain of 70. If you are going for balanced build like this with Vauban everything is not all that great, and If you want to excel with him on any one point of Bastille, say more range, you’ll have to sacrifice a mod spot for it, if you don’t you have to sacrifice power strength, and guess what, when you do that, your amour stripping values drop, and so does the amount you hold, wanna fix that problem, guess what, sacrifice another mod spot, or sacrifice duration, or efficiency, and you keep doing that until your build is either imbalance in one spot, or back the a balanced build where everything excels at nothing. This is what needs to be fixed first and foremost on Vauban, because regards of what you make his abilities do, unless they make him godlike, they aren’t gonna be worth anything.


Now for those that didn’t read a thing here’s the TL;DR, Tesla Nervos is good because of augment, but needs to move faster. Remove Speed Pad from Minelayer and replace it with a shield, then buff the other Mines. Make Photon Strike worth using over other abilities and/or weapons. Bastille/Vortex is good, and Vauban's main problem is that his stats suck. I also forgot to mention the ability screen needs another pass on. Not because it looks bad or anything, but because information is missing, I’m sure if you checked the picture I posted you’ll notice an Infinity Symbol in the top right corner, that's an armor bonus that scales off of how many enemies you have in Bastille, only problem is that its not mention anywhere on the skill page. This problem actually exist with a lot of frames, I’m just hoping that someone gets around to adding missing information/interactions with the frames.
 

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On 2019-10-31 at 9:40 PM, hs0003 said:

Tesla Nervos
The good:
Hard CC on the targeted enemy and they stay around till they've run out of charges.
The bad: 
The balls are very slow, more speed please. Also multiple balls will attach to the same enemy, wasting charges and lowering CC. 

Minelayer
The good: 
Still very gimmicky. The extra damage from overdriver is always welcome (too sad it doesn't affect abilities). 
The bad: 
You can toss out 4 of each ball at the same time for a total of 16, why not have it 16 total, of any combination we want? Vector Pad has a rather long delay before we can get pushed again (no ping ball for tenno). Flechette Orb misses quite a lot, the damage is low enough as it is, no need to further reduce it with misses. 

Photon Strike
The good:
It seems to do scaling damage.
The bad:
It doesn't say anything about how it scales, or even that it actually scales. Also, casting animation is hella long, increase by 400% please.

Bastille
The good:
2 great abilities in one, complaining should be illegal.
The bad:
But I'm gonna complain anyway. Casting animations are too slow, especially when jumping, 300% casting speed increase, please. 

(Quoted hs0003 as we both have very similar issues and wanted to point that out.)

Issues I have with Vauban

1) Tether Coil needs to be able to tether to more enemies, 2 is too low. 5 would be fine, or it could be affected by power strength.

2) Flechette Mine is lackluster. Sure, you can toss it in doorways and it does have a bit of a knock-back, but it really isn't amazing. Change it to slash and give it a status chance that is effected by power strength or something. 

3) Why does Vector Pad exist? This is just reskinned bounce pad. It isn't useful in the slightest. Give Vauban a defensive mine, something that creates a protective dome or something. The boy needs defensive options, as there are enemies who cannot be CC'd and this mario kart speed pad ain't cutting it no matter how hard you try.

4) Why the hek is the cast animation so slow on Photon Strike when I have to wait for it to activate anyway? Speed up the cast animation and this one is fine.

5) Again, why is the cast speed so dang slow on Bastille/Vortex? Minor speed up on cast and it is good.

 If those things get fixed then Vauban would definitely be in a better place. I cannot comment on Ember because I don't really play her at all so I will let the other tenno comment on that one.

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10 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Not only did you not quote me directly so I could respond, you fill your post with poor grammar and still ignore my criticisms on Ember.
 

It was quicker that way, given that you outright claimed that Immolate will always be maxed out at high levels, what is stupid for all practical purpose we have left with our current energy system(not that this is very much, but hey).

10 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:


You still don't know that the drain amount isn't capped instantly upon reaching 90%, by your own admission.
You still don't know that Fireball surpasses the 8x multiplier.
You still hide your enemy testing levels in bad faith.

You assume things that are not true, same as you do in your first post. The enemy level was 160, but it would not matter if it would be 100 or 300, given that the HP of armored units does not scale as hard as on other factions and a boar prime should give it away that the armor values on the target are most likely meaningless for that simple demonstration.

10 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

The level you did show in a single photo have you struggling, about to die with low LS against level 100s, nefariously showing a tick of 1400 damage when the enemy still has armor.
Even with your first screenshot, and all my handicaps in place, the heat ticks I have are just 5k damage away from your Boar Prime Crits.
You don't know how to use her new kit, you clearly need to play it more to at the very least catch up to me, you just clearly know nothing at all currently in all due respect.

The photo was mostly to show the practical damage of Inferno at higher levels, given that taking a photo takes a bit of time and pinning the targets in place with my status weapons would screw the result you get shoot(what is not a big deal once you move again and life strike something).

Are you just comparing the damage you do per tick of your ability with a single pellet from a accelerant boosted boar prime? Are you that dense?

Look all frames with reworks get dumped down, DE does this for the reason that her player base is actually not that smart(the Saryn rework is a excellent example). I do understand how the new abilities work, this is why I point out that it is not a good change compared to how Ember used to work before the rework.

10 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

A week from now you'll be over your reactionary hate-honeymoon and stop being disingenuous.
If you want another reply, then you'll have to be a good N2 and address my criticisms of the new Ember for once, instead of complaining about not wanting to use Fireball and your weapon simultaneously against level 160+ enemies (where it's actually needed and where the new Ember is objectively stronger than the old Ember), because she isn't perfect.
 

I will not. I will most likely stop playing the frame I played the most for the last 5 years, same as I did stop playing saryn after the rework. You have no criticim outside energy efficency on Ember is bad, while suggesting at the same time to litterally make things 10 times worse in that regard, because this was the conclusion you had after a quick test in the Simulacrum, that can not be based around real testing.  

Having Immolate at 90% all the time you would need a 100% armor debuff is not possible form the energy pov without a Trintiy next to you, throwing out another 360 energy every single minute with fireball is just rediculous and I am 100% certain you never tried that out for yourself in a longer mission, because then you would realize how rediculous that claim is.

Claiming that the new Ember does more damage then the old one can only come as argument from somebody that does not understand how powerful accelerant actually was on status weapons. There is a reason why I posted the 2 pictures of the rakta cernos, you take around 3 times longer to kill stuff with your weapons now what still happens to be Embers major damage source at higher levels. To be fair 99% of the ingame community did not, the reason why I posted in a lot of Ember threads over the years that people are wrong if they believe Ember does low damage(because Ember did Chorma levels of damage with her weapons) and has issues against armored targets(what is laughtable given how accelerant on status weapons worked). However I did hear the same nonsense during the Saryn rework, all from people that never understand the old spore mechanic, after DE put in some desperatly needed changes to prevent people afking for hours in survival with that. To be again fair DE never cared to explain the changes.

10 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Shredding level 100 health pools is not even an issue for weapons, especially once you (specifically you) learn that her 3 can remove all armor.
Reach the veteran table and test against at least levels 150 and above, where health pools are gigantic and her great scaling damage is required.
At actual high levels, enemies die much faster than before, and no one can/has proven otherwise.

Look L150 HP pools are not gigantic, especially not on armored targets. Everbody that did solo at this levels knows that. This is from leveling my Mesa prime 5 weeks ago when I decided to play warframe again and staying a bit around for the 80 minute rotation:

CSGGYnn.jpg

3Hbc3ef.jpg

This is just a fraction of the damage Ember could do with that weapon, because it is build around acclerant...

To make it really simple for you:

Ember traded WoF that did ok CC at high levels for Inferno that does not, while it's damage scaling is barely better. Especially in the eyes of somebody that always considered WoF as plain CC at high levels, because the damage compared to accelarant buffed weapons was fairly insigificant.

Ember traded one of the most powerful weapon based damage buffs for a damage reducion that is for all practical purpose just worse then on other tank frames. On top of that Ember traded a incredible good CC ability for that as well, what means 50-60% damage reducion is barely noticable given you get shot just more often without it.

Ember now has a ability that reduces armor, something that is compleetly stupid to have on the frame that did happen to scale stronger then Chroma with status weapons that are build around defeating that protrection mechanic. Or at least it would be if Ember still had accelerant.

On top of that the hole thing is a massive energy hog, no matter how you play it(the old Ember was not super energy efficent but servicable at high levels for solo), is just plain worse in any situtation where CC helps to archive mission goals(defence, interception, excavation, etc.) while also being a lot worse for damage at higher levels plus throwing weapon choice and frame specific modding(yeah you actually did build weapons that you used on Ember different then on any other frame in the game, same as on Saryn before the rework) got thrown right out of the window.

This will be my last relay, because everything you state is bullS#&$.

 

Edited by Djego27
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12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I will not. I will most likely stop playing the frame I played the most for the last 5 years, same as I did stop playing saryn after the rework.
This is just a fraction of the damage Ember could do with that weapon, because it is build around acclerant...

Point proven, as reactionary as they come.
Just as Saryn is now stronger, Ember is as well. Objectively. 
History will reflect the usage, just as it did with Saryn.
If anything, DE will nerf her damage once they reduce the energy drain.
At least you will still be able to enjoy your weapons.

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I give Vauban's rework, on a scale of -10 to +10, a -5, where 0 would be no change. Vauban seems more satisfying in his "Boom!" but less viable.

His 1 is good. His 2 is a joke. His 3 is pretty much useless though fun to see. His 4 is badly nerfed.

A lot of people used to say "Vauban has only two useful abilities and they do the same thing": Vortex and Bastille. Not true at all. Bastille was for locking down an area and Vortex for grouping enemies together at a chokepoint. Enemies which, when grouped together, could be easily dispatched. The fact that he can only have one Bastille or Vortex active, is atrocious. That was frame-defining.

I'd very much like to see reworks from people who have played the frame for at least eight hours a day for a full week and understand what that frame needs to be better, more rounded. This doesn't seem to be the case. Additionally, his 4 is much too slow, probably on account of the merge and charge wind up, in order to add his 3 (but keep the 2?!).

All Vauban needed was some self (rather than area) defense, and that could have easily been baked into his Bastille somehow, and maybe something to prime enemies for a follow up. There were great opportunities for syngergies in how his various abilities interact with one another, but instead of building on a frame we're taking it in a different direction.

Perhaps "touch-ups" rather than "reworks", for frames that aren't unsalvageable (such as Ember in her previous iteration), would be best.

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Vauban:

I quite enjoy the new tesla. They don’t have 100% status (it wouldn’t hurt if they did). But they do cc some stragglers on my blind side here and there. However they do tend to latch onto enemies that already have a tesla ball.

Minelayer’s tether coil has too low of an enemy cap. It has potential, but it could use a higher enemy cap than 2 enemies.

overdriver is great. It’s cheap to use and doesn’t need to compete with the likes of rhino and chroma.

flechette orb doesn’t need to outpace guns, but it is a bit on the weaker side. It doesn’t necessary need more damage, but if it had another effect like having a chance to blind, knockdown, or disarm enemies. something that can help Vauban survive a little more without having to rely too much on Bastille.

And I gotta be honest here, I’m pretty disappointed that bounce is still in vauban’s kit. Vector pad is still bounce, and it’s always been a meme ability rather than a good utility. it really needs to join the likes of super jump. It’s overstayed it’s welcome. i would really prefer the old concuss mine over this. Concuss was the best mine from the previous iteration of minelayer. Please consider bringing it back and getting rid of vector pad.

vauban’s casting animations are also a bit long for his photon strike and bastille. but the abilities themselves are quite enjoyable. The debuffs and team buffs Bastille provide are great. And photon strike does pretty decent scaling damage if you get a good cluster:

Ember:

fire ball is actually a decent ability now. Heat procs are good, spreading them is good, and the damage multiplier for fire ball is okay. It’s certainly noticeable in mid level missions.

immolation... well, being able to tank as a squishy frame is great. The energy penalty over time isn’t too bad, but the issue comes in trying to avoid the penalty. Immolation can start building up far too quickly. But that’s not the big issue. The issue lies with how fire blast is handled to deal with it.

Fire blast is already a costly ability. It’s not cheap. And sadly it does not do a great job of preventing immolation from heating up. Once you start to spread your heat from fire ball and inferno too much, immolation will rapidly fill up. And when you cast fire blast... it fills right back up almost instantly. THAT is the problem. Fire blast does not reset immolation’s build up rate. You either have to uncast immolation and leave yourself vulnerable or you need to spam fire blast just to cool yourself down. But that ends up costing you far more than immolation’s penalty. Fire blast needs to do a better job of keeping immolation under control.

Other than that, fire blast is alright on its own as an armor stripper.

as for inferno, does it really not spread heat procs? If I cast only my ult, my passive remains at 0%. I gotta be honest, if this isn’t a bug, I’m a little bummed that only fireball has heat procs.

Edited by Shadedraxe
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Ember feels really buggy or janky now, I'm really not happy about this. 

Fireball is whatever I wish it was changed to something like Frost wave but whatever. 

Immolation is janky, the energy drain is inconsistent, there's no mention of it ramping up in drain. It's not exactly clear how the bar raises, since sometimes if you set everyone on fire it caps in seconds but other times it doesn't budge. I'm also convinced that the damage reduction isn't working properly, I've been one shot way too many times by level 80 mobs with 90% damage reduction. 

Fire blast is a giant wtf to me. The wave that travels out is so inconsistent, sometimes it won't hit things on my screen. It costs way too much energy if you expect to spam it to make her "synergy" work. 

Inferno is just as wtf for me, the targeting is so terrible. You literally have to have it on your screen to hit targets for me, anything behind you isn't hit.

Overall ember just feels terrible to play now, she's like when sayrn got her first rework, too much energy for so little gains. Damage reduction is nice but it's so variable that it's kinda pointless. You jump from 0 to 90 so quickly and so often that you're basically asking to get taken out. People can try and argue that it's more involved but it's just pointless micro managing compared to the hectic cc juggling between wof and accelerant. 

This is probably the most impressive thing DE has done, they made ember a worse frame. 

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So immolations energy drain is insane and pretty much makes it so that you can't really take advantage of the full damage reduction of it, and the immolation level getting higher the longer you use can also exceed what fireblast can release. A cap would be nice and more manageable.

Fire blast being line of sight sorta ruined it but I guess all the other buffs sorta make up for it. Could have more base damage.

Inferno should proc heat atleast during the initial explosion and the spread could be better but I'd still take it over world on fire any day. Edit; inferno actually does proc heat on the initial explosion, it's hard to see it though.

And fireball is definitely stronger but it doesn't feel like it has much power behind it, even when you charge it it feels weak. The charge mechanic also feels really weird with the combo multiplier. if it was just like a single, free fire version of inferno that shot out of your hand, it might feel powerful and not handle as oddly.

The damage over time stacking of heat procs also feel weak, compared to other dots procs, and that could have some bad implications for embers kit. Edit; after some testing, maybe not? Heat stacking seems to be about as equal to atleast toxin but it's hard to tell.

The passive seems to be the one thing that is a straight buff, having no limit on it makes sense since it's hard to sustain large amounts of enemies being on fire at once. But the bonus could go from 5% to 10% cause of that.

Edited by -Bv-Concarne

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i still defend that Vauban need a good set of skills, each focusing on one aspect of a support, as well as a good survival skill.
so here's my idea:

Passive: Tech Aura, Vauban can select between 3 diferent Auras, that affect alies close to him(each with its own range), can select the active aura with his 2.

1) Tesla & Shred - when selected, Tesla grenades create an explosion that drains shields from enemies, while also stunning shield less enemies. when selected, Shred grenades rip armor from enemies, as well as give "negative armor" to armorless enemies(basically a weaker version of viral).
    MOD> overcook the grenade before throwing to transform it into a turret, tesla becomes a tesla ball, shocking any enemy that comes close, while shred, becomes a turret that shoots piercing shrapnel towards enemies.

2) select the diferent auras:
  a) Ammo Mutation aura, gives a small ammo mutation buff to alies(and himself) that converts useless ammo to usable ones.(affinity range)
  b) Fire Rate aura, enhance fire rate of alies(and himself)(medium range)
  c) Anti Nulifier bubble, creates a nulifier bubble of his own, protecting those inside it from nulifing effects like nulifier bubbles, and scrombas(small range)
    MOD> each aura gains a side effect, AM - gains ammo regen, FR - energy regen - Bubble - health regen. they would work like a lesser version of a equivalent small restore(between 50% and 25%)

3) Tech Armor, a secondary shield that uses armor and power, to reduce damage taken, once depleted, it releases a blast proc, throwing enemies close to him to the ground.
   MOD> when hit by bullets, convert them into ammo, when hit by melee, counters with an eletric proc.

4) Vortex & bastile, basically what they did now, with the diference being, not removing armor from enemies, but gaining enhanced duration.
   MOD> bastile effect remains, vortex gains range instead of duration.

this would make vauban survive late game content, as well as fill multiple roles, including counter nulifier and scromba, he can enhance dps in diferent ways, CC, and still remain mobile, while also being able to secure a location(while still inferior to the other similar skills), he could support alies in diferent ways, including regen ammo, something kohm users would apreciate, while still not becoming a true subistitute to energy recovery, or more dedicated healers.

Edited by Keyhound
realised alot of people really want a turret skill, so why not make the grenades work double duty, with the mods

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First i have to say that Vauban has always been my favourite frame, subtle gameplay is always what i'm looking for at least when it's rewarding - So i was really looking for a rework and here it comes !

Second, i've mostly tested this new iteration in high level content (Kuva flood, level 100-120 Lich missions, sorties) so i won't speak about low-mid tier content since most of them are a cakewalk anyway.

________________

Overall Impressions

Well i won't hide that fact that i'm highly disappointed by this rework. In fact i wouldn't even consider it as a rework, it's more a huge mess of DIY abilities, nothing is really consistent nor logical, and his whole kit doesn't have a single synergy. I may sound rude but everything in this rework seems to have been designed on paper only - most of that doesn't make any sense in game and in worst case scenarios it also still makes Vauban quite lackluster in many departments.

There's also something really important i've noticed in recent frames, most flaws tend to be hidden behind some kind of power creep - as if adding a nuke or a clone skill will solve all of frames weaknesses. Breaking news, it doesn't. Frames need consistency to be fun, not necessarily more damages or nuke skills, every ability can be made to damage anything anyway.Thinking about reworks as a dps race is pointless - Saryn or Equinox already did win it and all frames shouldn't be supposed to please the laziest players (hence press 4 and keep running or stay afk).

The first thing i really despise in Vauban rework is that he's still not an engineer. He's a baseball player in reconversion or even a cheap grenadier but he's nowhere near as a true engineer. He's basically switching between worthless options and charging meh powers for hours, throwing unprecise grenades, bouncing everywhere, waiting for them to explode and perhaps achieving something useful for once. When i was trying to throw his 2nd skill to myself to get a buff, i thought it was way too much. I mean, i'm even trying to aim at myself to get a stupid buff cause all i'm supposed to do is to throw grenades ? Come on...

_________________

Tesla Grenades

I've always tried to get something out this skill prior to update 26 and never really achieved it. It was always awkward to use, not much effective either. Lots of other frames powers are better at CC, better at dealing damages, better at aiming etc. I also hated the fact we have to charge the skill to make it better less terrible. More time, more energy, a pain to aim and throw especially with a controller. A really few results.

Bad news, we still have this awful charge mechanics. It's even worse now cause throwing only one grenade instead of four is completely worthless. This skill is basically meant to be charged, what a masochist way to design supposedly fun stuff, isn't it ?

Anyway, i'm charging. Oh, i almost forgot, @DE do you know we can't charge a skill while aiming cause our right hand is busy, right stick is then no more an option ? Seriously, i'm worried this kind of things still exist when it's basically unusable in-game. And then i'm throwing a few homing, slow, dumb, grenades. What's supposed to be an improvement here ? If i have to move, the grenades can't reach targets before i do, they're dumb as hell so targets are only picked randomly. Worse, the only way i can damage anything with that power is through its augment mod - which is quite effcient until you noticed you have to check around where this damn grenades are stuck, which is boring at best. Efficient, sure to some extent, fun, not at all. Vauban is an engineer, why would he care about stupid AI, random targeting and slow gadgets ?

Finally i've stopped using this augment or even this power, Vauban still has a lot of weaknesses and his build is definitely highly energy consuming - wasting a mod slot wasn't much convenient to me. Plus this skill still failed as a reliable CC power, as opposed to something like Wisp electricity moth, tesla grenades won't save you from anything. Even with 4 grenades i was still nearly dead every few seconds in tougher content. Vaguely stunning enemies in front of you only matters if you're playing in a damn straight dead-end corridor.

Waste of energy. Which leads to a bonus chapter - What's wrong with Vauban's ressources.

_________________

Bonus Chapter: Vauban terrible Ressource Management

At first i thought this rework could be an excellent way to deal with Vauban's terrible ressources management. The guy was never quite a nuker but he was never quite a support either. A lot of people were complaining about Bastille increased cost. Sure, relying upon this skill only will cost you an arm especially since its duration is still pathetic. You'll also have to charge some skills, try to nuke stuff (if you can aim at anything of course but we'll see that later), throw grenades over and over, witch between a dozen different options and try them all. Well, Vauban needs tons of energy to achieve really low results.

Vauban still can't manage a single ressource. No health, no shield, no energy either. Fact is Bastille is giving you armor so you'll still die, slower, instead of surviving. Let be honest a second, even with a Bastille on, Operator was mandatory to not die. I don't know if Vauban has to be considered as a defense engineer but if he does, real Vauban must be turning in his grave. I have the chance to live near one of his fortresses and this is no garden shed. 🙄

Expensive powers with short durations and mandatory mechanics (to not die instantly at least) with no way to get some energy back, a situational armor buff with no way to get health or shield/overshield back either means you'll die. Good news is that tougher frames who are playing with you will enjoy a lot your armor buff, too bad you won't be there to see that.

__________________

Minelayer

This power always sucked bad, really bad. Charging, switching mechanics have to go, definitely. Anything more useful as a skill would have been better than this thing, i wouldn't even call this job a rework if this power isn't gone yet. I don't care about sticking random wires, an expensive boost pad people will use to troll others, a perforating mine quite similar to Azima's secondary fire (a hint though, even Azima's own ability already sucked, why are you even using already existing stuff that doesn't work ? I'm kind of worried of how you're designing stuff tbh). A barely usable damage buff which can't be criticized only because you gave it a huge damage buff, power creep helps with rework popularity !

Seriously, remove entirely this joke of a skill and implement something mobile, useful and not an upteenth stupid grenade please. Keep the damage buff if you want but Vauban is such a bad frame to start with that he really needs something better. Why not adding an osprey that will fly above you, helping with a few things (the same way Khora can choose which permanent buff she'll have). More damage in a small area around me, shield/overshield generation, a way to get health back - Whatever. We need more mobility and ressources, and less grenades, bad aiming or casting skills.

This osprey (or whatever i don't care) could also be used to propel rockets (instead of stupid grenades) and then making Vauban whole arsenal more precise.

____________________

A Nuke, i got a Nuke ! Well if i can nuke a thing with my Nuke before the Nuker next to me Nukes everything before !

I got the idea, space game, orbital strikes, we all know orbital strikes have to be a thing in such game. So let's do it ! Vauban got a Nuke ! Well, if you're able to nuke anything with that cause, bad aiming (- reminder - stupid grenades), bounces, slow firing, awful timer, ridiculous area of effect and expensive cost will make you regret you spent 75 energy to throw this thing !

First, this skill has no synergy, it's just here because... Well because people were obviously complaining about Vauban not having damage powers. If you can't improve the whole disastrous "grenade mechanics" you should at least make this skill synergize with Vauban's kit, and give it some consistency. This grenade is absorbed by your Vortex, what if i want to shoot elsewhere or even aiming at enemies immune to my Vortex ? Well i can't. Let be honest a second, this skill is only useful to nuke (1) enemies stuck in your Bastille or (2) enemies stuck in your Vortex. Before i used a weapon, now i have to spend 75 energy (perhaps more if i miss). Damages are nice, really high tbh, but once again Grineer's armor scaling can make this power quite useless at higher levels. I still use it for the fun effect, but tbh if i wasn't using Zenurik and a ****load of energy arcanes, mods or whatever, i wouldn't use it - at all.

Since i'm going to vehemently criticize the brand new Bastille, perhaps adding Vortex to this new skill would have been less dumb, but i'll talk about that later.

Speaking about energy cost, the augment mod could be a good thing if this thing was able to strike 5 enemies in the first place. Short area, stupid grenade emchanics and awful timer aren't helping. Seriously, implement an Osprey and make it fire rockets or whatever - You're not helping yourself while keeping this damn stupid grenades.

____________________

New Bastille. The Fortress that can't protect you from anything.

I always thought Vauban was fun cause his CCs were original. A repelling Bastille and a Vortex were the bread and butter of his whole kit for a long time. Everything else in his kit was sucking bad. Bastille a room, Vortex a corridor were Vauban's essence. But let be honest a second, people or even people @DE are still calling Vauban the master of CC. I never got why Vauban was considered as a CC master, perhaps because that was the only thing he was good at cause Bastille never prevented you from being shot and Vortex has always been quite situational. Nova, Nyx or Mag are CC master, they can lock the whole map while laughing at your Vauban who's dying because too many Grineers are shooting at him from afar. 

Let's face it, Bastille sucks as a defensive only skill. Gara or Frost can protect objectives, Vauban can't. Worst, he even has a limit of stuck enemies now (well since a few months but that's not important). It may sound rude but my opinion so far is that you ruined Bastille and even failed at improving it.

First, why the hell i'm ending with a Vortex when Bastille expires. That feature alone isn't even logical nor helping with Bastille priority: Repel enemies. No one @DE did get why a skill that is supposed to repel shouldn't suck enemies in, ever ? It's now a huge mess or enemies scattered all around the place and then all inside Bastille area if you can't kill them all, which can happen sadly in higher levels. No offense but i don't want any enemy inside my Bastille, no matters what. Worse, it's automatically processed since i don't even have the choice to NOT cast a Vortex after a Bastille... Non sense, not fun, worthless utility.

Second, i can't no longer use Bastille along with Vortex to help locking wider places, both have to be used at the same time or in the right order (with another stupid charge mechanics, again...). Once again, being precise isn't possible especially when throwing a Vortex only. This is a huge nerf to how Vauban was performing prior to Old Blood.

Third, Bastille absorbs armor and gives it to you (and your friends) for a limited time. As i said above, any kind of armor mechanics sucks if you can't manage properly your health. Bastille doesn't repel bullets so you'll have to soak a lot of damage inside (well i did, even with quite a large Bastille). The worst thing about this mechanics is that i had to cast additional Bastille around to try to keep the armor buff while i was running around (from A to B, mobile defense, extermination, etc. Such missions can be a nightmare with Vauban's current kit - he's still quite fragile when on the move - hence him having an osprey or whatever, any kind of mobile support station should definitely help). Not much viable and quite expensive energy wise.

Thus i'd definitely have put Vortex anywhere else than there. Vortex could synergize well with his Orbital strike so why the hell adding it to Bastille.

I really hope you'll have enough time to make Vauban worth a rework cause so far i don't think he's in a better spot, at all.

TL;DR Vauban still needs a rework.

Edited by 000l000

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So, im gonna be an other random who will give a feedback on the rework of vauban, and i ll try to dont write a indigestible paragraph :

Globaly, i find vauban very too week, and the fact than we must put quick thinking for surviving dont go with the fact of spamming our ability for surviving.

Now the bastille buff armor when enemies are inside but :

It cost 100 energies to cast it, so if you spam it, you can say good bye to your energy pool (if your quick thinking doesnt vacuum it).

the duration is a bit low.

the buff of armor disable when bastille collapse into a vortex.

The problem will be solved if vauban will have a good source of energy. (but zenurik and energies pad are just jury-rigged)

So i bring a solution who could patch the problem :

The idea is about switch bastille and photon strike, and change power of minelayer will be more aiming on buff allies :

remove the armor buff of bastille and make it become the 3rd power (so it will cost 75 energies)

photon strike can be put on the 4th slot and can be fastest to cast for balancing with the higher cost of the ability

Change on mine layer :

Instead of vector pad : add a grenade ( name : rampart for example ) who can deploy a protection, sort of mix between atlas wall and 1rst ability of wisp. This protection have health and it can be deployed at 4 max on the map. In the range of the protection (15m at 100% range)  it give a buff of armor (like +100 brut armor at 100% strenght) energies who got duration (20 sec at 100% duration) when you leave the range of the ability. (cost of ability : 50 energies)

I think i will keep the old concuss grenade on the minelayer with a cost of (25 energies)

Flechette grenade could be work like  zephyr 4th ability (chooting on it for giving a statut effect)

And overdriver for me is not a cool ability is just a "less effective rhino's roar", i will change it by a grenade who can give sort of piercing ammo (2 meters of penetration at 100% power strenght) (work like rampart) on 3 next magazine. (or buffing weapon in other stats than directly dps) .

The global goal in this idea is to have an survival ability who dont have a too higher cost and give him more buffing (or nerf) abilities on minelayer.

And i think it would be cool to up the base armor of vauban  :100 is too weak, maybe 200 or 300 could be good to synergies with armor buff.

Maybe ideas i have are a reddit or copy of other idea in other commentaries, im sorry if its the case.

For finishing, the fact that vauban as now an ability who can kill high level enemies is nice, and mix votex and bastille was a good idea, but like before the rework the real problem of vauban is he cant survive at high level.

Thnks for reading it.

 

 

Edited by L45T51GH

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On 2019-11-01 at 2:08 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

DEV NOTE

I would like to suggest Ember 3 to ignore obstacles of the environment meaning going through walls etc, because using her 3 already is a punishment for lowering her damage reduction + power meter, so I think it is only fair for her 3 to pass through walls etc.

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This is a feedback for VAUBAN

Overall his animation is very slow making him sluggish to the current game speed.

The 1st is good if the only one ball attaches to one enemy. 

The feed back of his 2nd should be separated for each mine, so here I start with Tether Coil following the order of the game.

Tether Coil should affect more enemies than current only 2 per a mine.

Flechette Orb can be neither of CC and damage. For CC, it's too RNG and not consistent for each enemies making it so unreliable.

Vector Pad is not useful in any situation. It's bit fun if I put him 200+ strength, but basically Vauban cannot reach such high strength because he strongly needs  all of range, duration, and efficiency.

Overdrive is not bad. It's useful if it can boost ability strength.

His 3rd is really cool and was my favor to see in this rework. Unfortunately it is already outdated design for some reasons. First, its damage is too overwhelming against armored enemies. For example as I tested with 100lv corrupted lancer, my Fulmin was over twice faster than spam Photon Strike to mince them under his 4th Vortex. The second problem is that the small range. Considering other AoE damage abilities such as Gauss's 3rd(This has much better damage!), the default range of 5m is just a joke. DE seems intended to give it a  "synergy" with his 4th, but in that case weapon kill is much faster. 

I would like to compare his 4th Bastille to my recent favorite Gauss's AoE CC:Thermal Sunder(again). Lets start with range, the most important part of CC. While Bastille has 10m radius as default, Thermal Sunder has 12m of initial radius. At the range of CC, he is less than Gauss. Next, let's see duration. I compared how long enemies are restricted since cast. Bastille has 15 seconds of duration, but Thermal Sunder's freeze effect has only 8 seconds at 100% of the battery charge. Thus for almost twice duration, Vauban has better continuity than Gauss. Third part of comparison is efficiency. Although Bastille costs 100 energy, Thermal Sunder cost by half as it is 50 energy at default. Considering their duration it seems fair that Bastille has twice cost of energy, but in my opinion, efficiency is much needed than duration as it provides much easy to operate. Last but least point is, armor reduction. In high level missions, how much quick to stripping armor is serious problem to deal. Here's a comparison of time to strip armor completely: Bastille takes 10 seconds, and Thermal Sunder takes less than 2 sec with same energy costs. Bastille takes 5 times longer to strip armor than Thermal Sunder, and moreover Thermal Sunder can also nuke at the same time while Vauban needs turn Bastille into Vortex and prepare long-long charging Photon Strike. Wait, Vauban can gain 1000 of armor? It is less than Health Conversion and only lasts 10 seconds outside of Bastille which disappears as soon as using Vortex, and Gauss already has 100% of damage reduction.

Edit:There is no point the number of affected enemies is affected by ability strength. It should be unlimited as Thermal Sunder does.

Thank you for reading. As I'm not the native speaker, there should be much of mistakes in my writing, sorry.

Edited by alseltas
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Considering that Vauban is meant to be the CC frame, why is it that his Tether Coil and his Bastille still have an enemy cap?

Maybe it's a way to balance a utility skill and an armor removal skill? I don't know but I'm sure there is a reason behind it. The issue comes when big hordes of enemies come through a door trapped with Tether Coils but only tethers a small portion of the enemies. It also occurs when I use Bastille and the enemies in the area are still attacking me and not lock down an area like it's meant to do (in my opinion). 

The armor stealing effect of Bastille is a nice touch and really helps with his survivability along with teammates as well. Although it does not create a protective fortress, it does create stronger armor for all allies within, somewhat doing a similar effect. 

I expected that vortex, considering that it is a black hole, can still "take" away armor as well but sadly this isn't the case. It doesn't have to give the armor to Vauban or his allies, simply stripping the armor is enough to make Photon Strike viable to use. 

Speaking of Photon Strike, why does it cause blast damage? Yeah, it creates a blast but isn't it more of a laser? I would have expected heat or even radiation damage as an additive, but hey it's fun to blast enemies off the face of the Earth so not much to complain there (other than the lack of damage).

Moving on to mine layer, Flechette orb is the turret that a lot of people asked for. I understand that in order to balance the "afk"ness of a turret, damage needed to be low to be somewhat ineffective. If this is the case, then Flechette orb should be replaced for a more defensive ability. I would like to suggest the follow skill:

Shield Drone / Shield Deployment: Vauban deploys a drop that creates a shield that can recharge if damaged (Similar to a Nullifier Crewman's bubble. When it is damaged, it shrinks in size but can recharge by draining energy. This shield can be either placed done on a surface, or can be deployed by a drone that follows Vauban or another player if he activates the skill while facing an ally. I'll leave that to DE's decision :D) Credit to the Vauban King himself, Rahetalius for the idea from his recent video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N27bjFUzw70

Anyways, thank you DE for the update and the rework. Maybe Vauban is not as effective as we hope him to be, but I can't deny the fact that he's hella fun to use now 😄

Thanks for your time!

Edited by Ziebo

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vauban feedback

he definitely feels way more fun to play buuut I honestly think this could be immensely improved

first of all why vaubans stats werent changed at all?
he is still ridiculously squishy for someone who doesnt specialize in dmg and looks so beefy but infact is super vulnerable

also one major problem is throughout the entire kit
casting animations take wayyyy too long
natural talent is now absolutely mandatory in my experience and thats never a good thing
I think the new throwing animations are super cool but please consider speeding them up significantly

Tesla nervos:
I do like em but they are bit on the slow side travelling to targets and theres no reason for all of them to stick to single target
also maybe they could do aoe effect instead of single target for more effective cc?
also why only 4 max? for the charge time I personally think 6 would be more fair


Minelayer_
oh boy.. this is most controversial one
-tether coils are fantastic I like em alot but I think the amount of enemies tethered should be increasable with pwr strenght and default cap should be 4 instead of 2

-the flechette orb is as useless as I thought it would be
very low flat puncture dmg with no utility
this needs to be buffed or changed entirely

-overdriver is very simple but good no major complaints here
maybe it could increase your defenses too?

-vectorpad
this one doesnt make any sense
you lay it down and you go weeeeee for a second and thats it
it feels really pointless, I cant think of anything how to use this effectively
this I definitely feel like this should be changed entirely

how about a deployable shield?

Photon strike
I think this is so awesome to use but honestly the dmg could be higher
also the delay between deployment and actual shot is really long could it be faster?
also again the throw animations are really really long..

Bastille
the biggest problem here is the throwing animations lenght
otherwise I think its fantastic
maybe increase the default range abit?

I sincerely do hope vauban receives aftercare with his rework

ty for reading 🙂

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