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(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

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DEV NOTE:  Because so much is changing by design with THE OLD BLOOD, we want to be clear on how we’re handling your feedback. The majority of week 1-2 Hotfixes will speak to feedback. We want to combine feedback and stats together to iterate. To be a part of the feedback conversation please be constructive and clear (expand the spoilers below for a guide on how to write feedback), and most importantly, patient.

Spoiler

 

HOW TO WRITE FEEDBACK: 

1. Keep it simple
Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

2. Back it up
Support your points with concrete points. X has better stats than Y. This ability is less useful when considering X. Provide in-game situational evidence or a solid foundation for your argument to rest upon.

3. Be polite

The best feedback occurs when two people discuss opposing viewpoints to find a constructive middle ground. Discussion is a natural part of feedback! Ensuring that it is polite and without personal attacks is key. We’re far less inclined to listen to feedback filled with personal attacks and rude speech. We are all trying our best!

The Forums can be an amazing tool when used correctly. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on Grendel, how to acquire him, and his signature weapon! 

 

There’s nothing wrong with first reactions - but relearning takes time. We are especially interested in feedback from players who have taken time to understand The Old Blood. Thank you! 

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This thread will be used to house your feedback on the Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES changes from The Old Blood: Update 26.

If you would like to read up on all the Melee stat changes and provide feedback, please visit the dedicated Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback Megathread.

Melee PHASE 2: TECHNIQUES 

Expand the spoilers below for the full list of changes in Melee Phase 2: Techniques: 
 

Spoiler

 

Melee PHASE 2: TECHNIQUES 

Update 26 brings change to Warframe - it iterates on the game and Melee is no exception. For months Phase 1 has been in your hands, and it’s time for Phase 2. What follows is a detailed overview of our design direction and intentions with this new Phase. 

We are not touching Melee Riven Dispositions until we get updated data - expect advance notice when we close in on a date for this. 

We want you to know how your use of melee and feedback on the systems have helped form Phase 2, and how some changes are included to allow for a more cohesive Melee experience. Our tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that overall.  

Previously we made several changes to the Melee system (as detailed in the Melee Rework Phase 1 Dev Workshop thread) including: 

  • Introducing a new quick-melee attack
  • Full VFX overhaul on elemental damage types
  • Aimed Slam Attacks instead of impacting directly below an airborne player.  

While select changes are to be rolled back (yes - see below before you react), the rest of the system served as a good foundation for this much more expansive Phase 2. 

Please bear in mind that these changes are not set in stone, and some aspects of the new Melee system will be tweaked during the usual QA process. There are some more features being added later on, introduced in Melee Rework Phase 3 at a later date. 

So what is covered in Melee Update Phase 2? 

THE GAMEPLAY

  1. The Return of Equipped Melee and Manual Blocking!
  2. Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging

THE COMBOS

3.            Stance Changes, Combos and You!

4.            Smoother Combo Transitions

5.            Combo Counter Rework

THE TOOLS

6.            Changes to Slam Attacks

7.            Goodbye Channeling, Hello Heavy Attacks and Lifting!

8.            Weapon Stats, Mastery Limits and General Melee Changes

9.            Mod Rebalancing / Functionality

10.          Exalted Weapons

11.          The Screens: Arsenal Changes

THE TECHNICAL BITS

12.          Aim Assist

13.          Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!

THE FUTURE

14.          Channelling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode” and Future Plans! 

As you can probably tell, this section is going to be a bit of a lengthy one, so make sure you sit comfortably, drink a nice cup of Greedy Milk and get ready to read all about how you can better turn your enemies into salsa with your favorite melee weapon! 

An overarching note before you get started, is that every Melee weapon that was originally a single Elemental damage type has been converted to Physical + Element, allowing for more Status reliability as well (Silva and Aegis excluded given Flame Blade).

 

THE GAMEPLAY 

  1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same.  

The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! (Don’t worry, Auto Blocking is still a thing!)

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

 

BlockingAngleDiagram.png.a47772a79a2ebfa  

 

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

 

2.            Dodge Cancel and Tactical Dodging

One of the older and larger complaints of the melee combo system has been the animation locks. Completing 7 step combos feels great, but the animations completely lock you into the movements. We are introducing two new ways to put more control in your hands: 

  • Dodge Cancel - Allows a player to activate a dodge any time during a melee attack to end the combo immediately and dodge out of the way.  
  • Tactical Dodging - Dodging while blocking now performs this Tactical Dodge, keeping the distance short, and allowing you to remain within melee range. This is an effort to not break the flow of combat after cancelling out of an attack, but also if you need to make a quick escape!

 

THE COMBOS 

3.            Stance Changes, Combos and You

By far, the biggest change you will see in the new Melee system is the alterations made to Stances, as well how Combos interact with one another. In the old (current) system, Combos are an effect of button presses, all leading into a chain of animations. In Melee Rework Phase 2, attacks are buttery-smooth and adaptable!

This rework of Combos applies to every Stance, not just the weapon types. For example, Tempo Royale (a Heavy Weapon Stance Mod) will still have different Combos than the Cleaving Whirlwind Stance, even though both Stances fit the Heavy Weapon melee type. The difference now, is that both share a design that uses common movements and attack types. 

We also wanted melee attacks to feel more intuitive. For example, if you are aiming down the sights of a primary weapon or blocking incoming fire, and then hit the melee button, you most likely want to get in close! If you are not inputting a movement key while meleeing, it’s usually a sign you want to finish off your target. We wanted the new Combos to reflect that that existing movement, and so the new inputs reflect that situational awareness.

In most cases, the following improvements can be applied to any given Stance Mod equipped to a weapon (not just individual weapon types!): 

  • Forward Combo (Forward + Melee) - This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.
  • Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) - This move is usually a distance-closing opener, bringing you closer to the enemy and getting you within range to continue a harder-hitting string of attacks. The beginning or end of this combo can have a slam effect, allowing you to control the enemy, and during the mid-point of the combo, attacks will be large and sweeping, allowing multiple enemies to be hit.
  • Neutral Combo (Melee button only) - Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target. The last attack can either have a knockdown effect, or throw them into the air and hold them there, if one set of strikes does not finish the job.
  • Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) - First hit will likely be a longer thrust or throw of a weapon to increase range. Further attacks will be hard-hitting, and will often finish in a ragdoll effect or a Lifting Attack, as opposed to a knockdown or stagger. Lifting attacks are detailed in Section 7 of this workshop.
  • Air Combo (Melee while Jumping) - Perform a combo in the air without sacrificing movement.
  • Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going! 

Pro Gamer Move Example: Use the first, opening attack in the Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) to close the distance on the target, then transition into either a Neutral Combo (Melee Only) or a Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) to finish off the target. 

All of these fresh Stance changes has shone light on Whip Stances in particular not being as desirable in comparison to the others. We’re aware of this and are working on a new Whip Stance!

 

4.            Smoother Combo Transitions

In the old system, only the first follow up attack inputted would remain in ‘memory’ and would execute at the end of the initial attack animation. Any kind of input entered after the initial follow up was ignored until the next attack had started. In the new system, the next attack is being constantly updated, depending on the last input received.  

This allows for last-second decisions on combo changes to occur immediately after the first attack has finished. No more waiting for a combo attack animation to end before you can start spamming the attack button again! Embrace the fluidity!

 

5.            Combo Counter Rework

The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS! This will replace channeling's key binding, and Section 7 below covers those changes. This counter will be increased in a more granular and rapid way, and can be built by using melee attacks, blocking damage, radial damage from Slam Attacks and hits from a thrown weapon (such as the Glaive). 

As an expendable resource the Combo Counter should be easy to replenish, and the changes made should reflect how easy you can acquire and spend the Combo Counter resource. In addition, the ‘heaviness’ of an attack will have a measured difference on the amount of Combo Counter it increases. As a general rule, lighter, swift attacks will give lower additions to the Combo Counter than slower, heavy attacks will. Swing for the fences, Tenno! 

A SIDE NOTE: as a result of this new Combo Counter system, certain Mods are changing, but there are also some Mods whose stats will remain untouched, such as Body Count, as it retains the same functionality. All Riven Challenges related to Channeling have been changed to reflect ‘Combo Counter’. For example, Riven Mods can now have a + / - to not gain Combo Points on hit. The Mods that will see some changes are listed below, in Section 9. 

ANOTHER SIDE NOTE: Abilities that use the Combo Counter (such as Ash, Atlas, etc.) will scale at 25% of their former values, to make up for the ease of building a much higher Combo Counter Multiplier. This value is pending review for balance passes. 

  • Combo Duration is now displayed as a bar underneath your Combo Counter!

 

THE TOOLS 

6.            Changes to Slam Attacks

The ragdoll effect of the Slam Attack is being removed (with some weapon-specific exceptions *cough*JatKittag*cough*), however it is being replaced with an effect that will push enemies back or knock them down, giving the player some breathing room, and setting the enemy units up for follow-up attacks.

Melee Rework: Phase 1 introduced the global use of ragdoll effects on Slam Attacks, so this is the second item to be rolled back, and replaced with a better way to rain down death from above! 

Also, all Melee weapons have received an updated Slam FX - come on and SLAM (attack), and welcome to the jam! 

 

7.            Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status

Channeling will be saying its final farewells in the Melee Rework: Phase 2 update, and instead is being replaced with a new form of Heavy Attack, as well as a new Lifted status effect. As we said before, Channeling Mods will also be changed to support this new system, as well as providing a larger pool of utility to choose from in your builds. 

These are the changes planned: 

  • Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 
  • Heavy Slam Attacks (Jump + Alt-Fire for Melee) - This new Slam Attack will create a new effect on targets, known as the LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft. Again, if you do not have any Combo Counter active, this will act as a Heavy Slam attack without a damage bonus, and minimal Lifting Status. 

But what about the Channeling FX you ask? Prime Armor Channeling FX will now appear when the Combo Counter reaches 2!

 

At the moment, the current list of Mods and their proposed changes are listed below.

  • All Channeling Mods - have been changed to the Melee Parent type to bring them in line with Melee Phase 2 changes
  • Amalgam Organ Shatter - Will be changed from Charge Attacks to Heavy Attacks.
  • Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising 60% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2).
  • Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.
    • During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
    • The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload
    • Spoiler

      70357b78c5c2cba9bad1df0dc9a95525.png 

  • Corrupt Charge - Adds a large amount to the Combo Counter, but significantly reduces the time it takes for the Combo Counter to drain.
  • Covert Lethality - is remaining as a Dagger Mod for now with +16 Initial Combo and 100% Finisher damage, pending later review. (Note: This has changed from what was laid out in the recent Dev Workshop)
  • Dispatch Overdrive - Increases player movement on a Heavy Attack hit.
  • Enduring Affliction - Increases the Status Chance on enemies suffering from the Lifted Status.
  • Enduring Strike - Increases the Combo Counter chance when hitting Lifted enemies.
  • Focus Energy - Add Electrical damage to an attack, as well as increasing Combo Counter generation.
  • Focused Defense - Adds an additional 20 degrees to a weapons blocking angle.
  • Gladiator Mod Set - Adds a multiplier with the Combo Counter up to 60% for the whole set.
  • Guardian Derision - Will add more to the Combo Counter for blocking hits. (Note: The Taunt mechanic is still in place.)
  • Killing Blow - Increases Heavy Attack damage and decreases the ‘wind-up’ time for Heavy Attacks
  • Life Strike - Heavy Attacks will now regenerate Health.
  • Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased 150%. 
  • Quickening - Grants +40% Attack Speed, +20% Combo Count Chance
  • Reach / Primed Reach - Will now increase range in a way that has been normalized. In the previous incarnation, long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit, while short-range weapons were barely seeing any increase at all.
  • Reflex Coil - Increased Combo Point Efficiency when using Heavy Attacks.
  • Reflex Guard - +100% Combo Count Chance while Blocking.
  • Spring-Loaded Blade - Will now provide a maximum of 3 additional stacks of Melee Range.
  • True Punishment - Add 40% Critical Chance, but reduces the chance to add to the Combo Counter by -10%
  • Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, 40% per combo tier.

This update will also see some changes to the following Weapon, Arcane and Focus School buffs: 

  • Zenurik - Inner Might - Has been changed to provide 60% Combo Efficiency, instead of Channeling Efficiency.
  • Synoid Heliocor, Furax Wraith and Fragor Prime - All receive bonus initial Combo Count to offset the boosted Channeling Damage they had previously.
  • Exodia Triumph Arcanes - Have been changed to +50% chance to increase the Combo Counter on hit.
  • Exodia Valor Arcanes - Have been changed to +200% chance to increase Combo Count when hitting Lifted Enemies.
  • Exodia Brave Arcanes - Now grants +5 Energy Generation when killing an Enemy with a Heavy Attack. This can stack up to 3 times. 

Again, some of these changes are subject to review and change. Now that Melee Rework: Phase 2 has been rolled out, there will surely be additional balance passes as usability and effectiveness are used (or abused).

 

10.          Exalted Weapons

All melee-based Exalted Weapons have received the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes. For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks).
 

Spoiler

Unique/Exalted

Garuda’s Claws

  • Parry Angle set to 60
  • Range increased from 1 to 2.2
  • Damage increased from 72 to 180 

Desert Wind

  • Parry Angle set to 60
  • Range increased from 1 to 1.2

Exalted Blade

  • Parry Angle set to 60
  • Range increased from 1 to 2.8
  • Heavy Attacks added

Valkyr’s Claws

  • Parry Angle set to 60
  • Range increased from 0.5 to 1.7

Iron Staff

  • Parry Angle set to 65
  • Heavy Attacks added

 

11.          New Screens: Arsenal Changes!

Part of Update 26 involves a change of the Arsenal Screen, and how information is displayed. In the current system, your Arsenal screen looks something like this: 

OldArse.png.8581a0d062ec16a186e0b94edfda

 

In Update 26, this screen is being reorganized to include Loadouts, Companions and Vehicles in tabs, while also giving more information about a weapon when selected:

 

 

As you can see, new stats for Heavy Attacks and Heavy Slam have been added, with channeling statistics removed. 

 

THE TECHNICAL BITS 

12.          Selective Aim Assist

Aim assist can be a help or a hindrance depending on what type of attack you wish to perform. While the current system either applies to all or none (on or off), the new system will have more intelligence on aim assist on a per-attack basis. As a general rule under the new system, Aim Assist will be disabled for almost all attacks in the Forward and Tactical Forward Combos, and enabled for most of the Neutral and Tactical Neutral Combo attacks. Of course if you don’t wish to use aim assist at all, you can disable it from the settings menu as normal.

 

13.          Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!

Another common issue in user feedback was the unequipping of Gear Items (like the Codex Scanner), or dropping the ‘football’ (usually a pickup for Mobile Defense or Sabotage Missions) when equipping melee or using a melee attack. This has now been changed so that you will no longer drop items or unequip Gear Items when either equipping melee or using a Melee Attack! 
 

THE FUTURE 

14.          Lastly: Channeling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode”

There has been a lot of discussion around this addition, and while it will not be included in the Phase 2 update, there is a lot of work being put into its application. This system is very special and we want to make sure that it is not just a cool addition, but that it has roots in Warframes lore, and a story behind it. This is something we want to implement with a lot of in-game fanfare and details will become available as progress is made. 

For now, that’s it!

 

 

Need to report a bug? Visit the THE OLD BLOOD Bug Report Megathread.

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I'm really not digging how Bullet Dance feels now. Why on earth was the "violently roll backwards" combo kept as the neutral?? That doesn't feel like it flows very naturally at all.

The first quick strike while moving forward being a slash instead of the previous responsive quick shot is very unpleasant feeling. So is the bizarre throwing the weapon attack on the first input of the hold right combo. I don't really wanna swing this thing.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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Super excited about this update! Love the spirit of incentivizing playes to use complex combos that give a more hands on approach and skill rather than spamming. I envisioned something like streetfighter or devil may cry - difficult to learn but fluid once you get it.

My redeemer prime (with bullet dance) is my mainstay. The "hold E" double shot is gone now, you can't move forward and shoot, the heavy attack is super slow, has it basically been nerfed? Am I missing something? I'm sure there's some logic here - I'd love to understand it. Don't want to be a downer. I'd also be happy to learn other combos that "bullet dance" allow to spray bullets, but the ones I've tested are combined with slash attacks which require close range, mitigating medium-long range enemies altogether. Is this really a "bullet dance" now?

 

Edit 1: In trying to recreate the original "hold E" double shot, I used "E" then "heavy attack" - but still this is much slower. You also have to manually stop moving forward or you get a blade attack. I don't mind the extra work in favor of a more hands-on approach, but it's the slow speed between attacks here that's killing it. Can it be returned to original speed? Or chain it with other combos that remove the long animation delay after heavy? That long delay makes firing in rapid succession not possible anymore.

After so much work I've put into Warframe builds meant to handle this redeemer, formas, plat, lua lense, etc. it feels like a shame. I don't think I can functionally use this anymore, and it takes the fun out of it. It's not fluid, but rather slow and clunky. Based on the comments in this thread this appears to be a shared frustration. I say this with full respect to DE and it's focus on the melee rework.

Made a video to show it, first as is, notice the space between the combo - its massive! Then with warcry (which normally speeds up things way more as well - but not all frames can do this):

 

Edit 2: After more testing, I think the "hold E double shot" is gone for good. Here's why:

On 2019-11-02 at 7:40 AM, Tubsie said:

Another good thing are the universal combo binds. As in you no longer need to remember each stance's combo specifically.

As others have said, the universal combo binds are the same, so DE likely won't make exceptions for just the Redeemer to bring back the hold E double shot. Also I think DE's intention was for us to not use it exclusively for spraying bullets, so even with bullet dance we now have gun shots mixed with melee attacks. 

I've given it a go, using the new combos, and at very least I've managed to have some fun with that. I must say I do enjoy some of the close range attacks in mobs that come with this new bullet dance, now that I'm forced to use it. It's not as functional as that double shot, but it does introduce new ways of taking down mobs with flexibility I haven't seen before. I see the silver lining. Try it out before you knock the redeemer completely. (I found it's functionality became more apparent in live testing rather than the simulacrum.)

DE I know you can't please everyone and in general I am impressed with Melee Phase 2. 

I hope this helps others understand DE's bigger picture for Melee, and staying true to the intention of a gun blade (bullets + slashes).

 

And 

On 2019-11-02 at 7:40 AM, Tubsie said:

getting rid of the "Press melee button and then pause before continuing the combo" -mechanic... SO GOOD!

I agree

 

Edit 3: GHS just posted a few encouraging words about the Redeemer rework (0:22 to 1:05)

 

Edited by tyrael7
More testing lead to more discoveries
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Several things I'd like to point out as a Gunblade user:

  • Speed up heavy attack to match pre-Phase 2 charge attack. It's way too slow to use as a substitute even though it's the same animation. It feels like the accidentally-nerfed Redeemer from Silver Grove all over again.
  • Allow us to execute heavy attacks directly from "holding a gun" if we bound a completely unique key for it, instead of having to switch to melee first no matter what, to closer match the overall feeling of pre-Phase 2 charge attacks.
  • If possible, make it so heavy attacks can be executed by holding E and not releasing (wouldn't clash with the new hold E and release combo this way)
  • Bullet Dance in its current iteration is completely borked. The stance is supposed to be all about constant shooting and no actual melee. We don't want pointless slashes, just give us a good shooting stance that doesn't teleport us everywhere.
  • Bullet Dance, at the very least, should have the forward combo's first attack switched back to a quick shot.
Edited by Mattoropael
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Most of my melee weapons (and Catchmoon) feel absolutely terrible now, slow, clunky, unfun....I've tried tinkering with the builds and haven't found anything to like, also it's now a pain to go from Primary/Secondary into a charged attack for a gunblade or Zenistar as you have to melee attack and then charged attack first, this whole thing is super awkward, the only bit I like so far about any of the melee changes is changing the finisher button to the use button instead of melee.

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A lot of melee attacks turn toggle sprint off now, which is incredibly frustrating.

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Tested it up a bit. As far as Blood Rush builds go, the nerf is colossal - does the multiplier works only for base chance? Cleaving Whirlwind is extremely weird: forward combo does the spin but almost no damage, whereas before it was the hard hitting stuff. Movements are stiff and sudden. Are all forward combos weak now? If so why make them an order of magnitude weaker?

Edit: Confirmed that Cleaving Whirlwind spin is total garbage. 

I liked what they did with the glaives.

Special from Orvius and Sigma are completely gone. No shield throwing, no orvius suspension (though it may be for the better). Final Harbringer shield slide goes forward only a couple of inches.

Edited by VoadorHolandes
Additional Observations
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"ALIGN MELEE ATTACKS TO CAMERA" SETTING:

I've been trying to bring this to your (DE's) attention for a while now, but unfortunately this wasn't addressed in the update.

I play with this option disabled (as is standard in any "monster-hunting" type of game, e.g. Dark Souls / Monster Hunter / Dauntless / Vindictus). This worked fine with Melee 2.0 since most weapons/stances didn't have directional combos. However, now that every stance has its own "Forward" / "Forward Technique" attacks, the new melee style unfortunately doesn't support this option very well (i.e. all "forward" combos only activate when holding W, but not A,S,D).

Could you give the "align melee attacks to camera" option a very quick review, so that it's properly compatible with Melee 3.0? The only change necessary is to let A,S,D activate the "forward" combos in addition to W when "align melee attacks to camera" is disabled.

 

 

EDIT: Some general melee feedback:

  • Finishers have been moved to Contextual Use (X) instead of Melee (E).
    OH MY GOD
    HOLY CRAP
    tumblr_nm63ds5g3M1qcs7p4o1_500.gifv 
    ^ literally me right now
    THANK YOU DE, AND GOD BLESS YOUR SOULS
    MAY THE GROUND YOU WALK QUAKE AS YOU PASS

 

Some feedback about stances themselves:

  • Some "Neutral" combos restrict movement too much, and should be switched with the "Forward" combos.
    When players use Neutral combos, it's often because they want to strafe left/right/backwards while attacking. However, most Neutral combos lock the player's legs, while the Forward combos will more-often let players WASD freely during the animation (despite W needing to be held to activate them).
    Some examples: 
    - Iron Phoenix (Longsword)
    - Carving Mantis (dual swords) 

    Simply switching the "Neutral" and "Forward" combos around would make the stances feel much more responsive to the player's inputs.
     
  • Many "Neutral" combos restrict leg movement, but they often shouldn't have to.
    I get locking the legs when the character is twirling/flipping/kicking/etc, but there are moves where the legs look like they should be freely controllable, yet the player cannot WASD during the animation. This is especially bad for "Neutral" combos, i.e. the combos where the player is most likely to want to WASD while attacking.
    The most egregious example I can think of:
    Swirling Tiger (dual swords); first attack of "Neutral" combo. (The worst part is, you used to be able to WASD during this move in Melee 2.0!)
     
  • (potentially difficult to implement, but) Add option to opt-out of certain combos?
    I know there are players who are going to love most of a stance except for a certain clunky combo that gets in the way. I think it'd be cool if players had stance-specific options to completely disable certain combos, or otherwise tweak the controls of that stance. Perhaps add customization options (saved locally for each individual stance) to the "Melee Combos" window?
    e.g. If someone loves Iron Phoenix but hates its Neutral Combo (as I do), then allow that combo to be disabled entirely (such that the Forward combo is activated instead).
    Here's a quick UI mockup:LX0EkVF.png

 

EDIT2: Some feedback about specific stances:

  • Shimmering Blight (Polearms) is AMAZING.
    For those who haven't used it: It's missing a Forward combo and Tactical combo. Its Neutral combo allows full WASD movement, and both its Neutral and Forward Tactical combos have nice, wide hitboxes.
    It's simple. It's effective. It's hella fun. I am not being sarcastic when I ask that y'all please do not touch this stance further (aside from maybe a fix for the first Neutral swing stepping to the right for some reason-- same applies for Bleeding Willow).
    That being said...
     
  • Bleeding Willow (Polearms) feels like a strict downgrade to Shimmering Blight.
    Its Neutral combo is identical to Shimmering Blight's... but its Forward-Tactical combo, when compared to Shimmering Blight's,
    - has roughly the same speed
    - leaps roughly the same distance
    - has the same number of forced bleed procs (i.e. one)
    - does only a single hit on the first swing (albeit with a somewhat higher multiplier that doesn't quite make up for it), versus Shimmering Blight's many hits
    has a somewhat narrow hitbox on the first swing (versus Shimmering Blight's 360-degree helicopter twirl)
    does not inflict Lifted status, whereas Shimmering Blight does
    with no other significant advantage to back it up. I think it'd be great if Bleeding Willow's Forward Tactical combo, instead of being "mobile swing + a few stationary swings", was simply the last 3 swings of its pre-U26 "hold E" combo-- that is, three mobile swings in a row. Less power, more mobility-- just like before!
Edited by SortaRandom
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All the W+E combo shouldn't lock you onto a place imo... just loop it like quick melee, please.

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Gotta say, I enjoy the update, don't particularly enjoy how tatsu got changed though.

 

Every weapon has W+E attacks, W+RMB+E, RMB+E, E, E (in air), S + E (in air), but tatsu is missing atleast one (RMB+E), and some weapons RMB + E is a literal single strike (Lookin at nikana's tranquil cleave). I get that making new combos is too hard, but some weapons who had low amounts of combos to begin with got the short end of the stick. I wish DE could look better into this. I guess I'll go back to my nikana (which are definitely much better now after the update! Blind justice also feels great!) because my current main melee, tatsu, got left behind on this update...

Edited by devildevil21
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58 minutes ago, tyrael7 said:

Super excited about this update! My redeemer prime (with bullet dance) is my mainstay. The "hold E" double shot is gone now, has it basically been nerfed? The heavy attack is super slow, which isn't the same. Am I missing something? I'm sure there's some logic here - I'd love to understand it. Don't want to be a downer. 

Edit: In trying to recreate the original "hold E" double shot, I used "E" then "heavy attack" - but still this is much slower. I don't mind the extra work in favor of a more hands-on approach, but this is very slow. Can it be returned to original speed? After so much work I've put into warframe builds meant to handle this redeemer, formas, plat, etc. it feels like a shame. I don't think I can use this anymore.

Made a video to show it, first as is, then with warcry using maxed eternal war mod:

 

 

46 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

Several things I'd like to point out as a Gunblade user:

  • Speed up heavy attack to match pre-Phase 2 charge attack. It's way too slow to use as a substitute even though it's the same animation. It feels like the accidentally-nerfed Redeemer from Silver Grove all over again.
  • Allow us to execute heavy attacks directly from "holding a gun" if we bound a completely unique key for it, instead of having to switch to melee first no matter hat, to closer match the overall feeling of pre-Phase 2 charge attacks.
  • If possible, make it so heavy attacks can be executed by holding E and not releasing (wouldn't clash with the new hold E and release combo this way)
  • Bullet Dance in its current iteration is completely borked. The stance is supposed to be all about constant shooting and no actual melee. We don't want pointless slashes, just give us a good shooting stance that doesn't teleport us everywhere.
  • Bullet Dance, at the very least, should have the forward combo's first attack switched back to a quick shot.

I think that it should be built in to have heavy attacks for weapons like the gunblades and glaves to be bound to a hold melee to fire as well since this does slow down attacks from the gunblades quite a bit at this time i have noticed.

also with bullet dance stance the whole build was based on making use of the gunblades gun shots, why do i keep getting tossed into using melee attacks i, kind of prefer the old setup a bit as far as it attack implementation this new one seems a bit more cluncky.

For all melee in general it might be nice to have the heavy attack set up to act like the old charge attacks where all we had to do was hold down the melee button.

is it just me or has all the mobility i remember having with my gunblade just vanished?

Edited by Daskrieg
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Pls, bring back the logarithmic scaling of combo multiplier from combo counter when its above 220 hits with 20*2^(n-12) where n is the combo multiplier. Preferably add a max cost of heavy attacks to be 220 hits.

Edited by Xardis
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Oh boy... I was really looking forward to this update. More than anything else, I was looking forward to the melee stance changes. And I am very disappointed... I'm still going through all the stances to try them out, but I can already see it's nowhere near what I expected.

  • It seems like you didn't actually bother to add any new combos or animations? You just took existing combos and changed the button inputs for them. You talked about how now melee weapons have different combos like the stationary one, stationary tactical, forward one, forward tactical, etc. But many stances only have one or two separate combos, so for those you've just thrown the same combo on different inputs. For example, Shimmering Blight only has two combos - standing, forward, standing+block are all identical!
  • You made the forward combo of Shimmering Blight go at full speed, no longer slowing down or locking down the player. Great. What about everything else? High Noon still slows and locks movement. Everything else I've tested so far still slows and locks movement...
  • Because many stances have identical standing and forward combos, it is still not possible to stand still to attack an enemy. For example, Grim Fury and Brutal Tide both have forward movement on the stationary combo, instead of letting you just stand there and punch the target!

Yikes. Just yikes. This honestly feels very lazy and hastily thrown together to me...

Please tell me you're going to be finishing this off.

Furthermore:

  • Even though charge/heavy attacks are moved to a different button, we still have to mash the melee button like a madman to keep attacking! Why? Can't you just let us hold the button down?
  • The tactical dodge doesn't even work for me. It just does a full roll every time. Tested in both quick melee and full melee modes.
  • Sometimes the blocking animation stops working in full melee mode.
  • When holding F to go into full melee mode, it becomes impossible to switch back to the gun that I was using. Holding F to exit full melee mode doesn't seem to be a thing that you've implemented. Pressing F to switch weapon brings out the other gun, not the one I was using.
  • You changed the Vaykor Sydon's Radial Blind from being on the channeling button (now heavy attack), to instead requiring block+heavy. This means that it is now no longer possible to do a Radial Blind from quick melee mode, and instead you have to do a slow, clunky full switch. This ruins it for me! Couldn't you just make it replace the normal heavy attack? Make it back+heavy? Crouch+heavy? Anything other than requiring full melee... Please.
Edited by SteveCutler
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Activating pure melee mode should still auto-block when you're not manually controlling it, I feel. Right now it creates this extremely weird dynamic where I feel less survivable using pure melee than quick melee. 

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Mercy kills with the Parazon should be bound to E, not X. Executing an enemy with a Mercy kill feels extremely awkward because I have to stop DPS'ing right at the point of an enemy's death if I want to pull it off.

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Would it be possible to bind heavy attacks to the "R" instead of alt fire? The reload button is not used while your melee weapon is out anyways. Right now it seems trying to bind it to "R" messes up the key for reloading with the gun.

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A lot of gap-closing combos don't move the character far enough, which kind of defeats their purpose. I don't know if it is because of the already existing animations being short or not, but it would be nice if you reviewed the travelled distance.

Also in some cases gap closers seem to be in a wrong order. For example in Defiled Snapdragon you have a whip attack followed by a lunge; I feel a lunge should be first to move closer to a target, and then have a follow-up far-reaching attack. It was a problem with Wukong's staff and it seems it persists in a few stances.

I also think melee momentum should return so we don't get knocked down while attacking.

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Heavy Attack (Alt-Fire) will cause Combo Counter countdown to reset, costing you stacks. Possible bug? Possible feature?

The effective result of this is you can extend your combo duration by doing a Heavy Attack against the air, sacrificing combo stacks to extend the time. This has noticeable benefits for + Combo Duration.

 

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First of all, I'm enjoying the melee sooooo much! It feels really smooth and really great!

Some feedback on Melee PHASE 2: TECHNIQUES
I'd like to see the weapons with a heavy attack special also have this applied to their heavy slam attack. A few examples:
- Sancti Magistar: The same healing pulse as the regular heavy attack.
- Sibear: +50% status chance, like the regular heavy attack, with the addition of ice spikes pertruding from the heavy slammed location.
- Zenistar: Deploy the disk in place.
- Caustacyst: Instead of the Line of acid you throw in a regular heavy attack, with a heavy slam attack you would create a puddle of acid in the slammed location.

I'm just really enjoying this heavy slam attack and wish these weapons specials would also benefit from the heavy slam. It feels so powerful and impactful!

Thanks for the great update ❤️

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  • I don't feel like removing ragdolls from slam attacks was necessary at all. If anything, ragdolls on slam added some flair, and allowed the player to pull out a few nice tricks, such as popping an enemy that you ground slammed mid-air with a gun. Most of the mid-air ragdolls didn't push enemies too far away for your weapon range anyway. Please do consider to add that feature back, or at least to make it a thing on more weapons aside from Jat Kittag.
    • Possible contenders for having ragdoll on slam re-implemented : Obex, Kestrel, Furax... More weapons could get that features. Maybe one per category ?
  • Gunblades feel very awkward because pulling the old trick of E + heavy attack feels much more awkward than before.
    • Found a way to pull out my old double shot trick, that most of us Redeemer users seems to know. For those who don't, you had to use Bullet Dance, you just pressed E once and then hold E. You'd do a quick shot followed by a stronger one. This was the Gunblade's bread and butter. Now though, it feels very awkward, because you have to use the first hit of the neutral combo to do so (you can't press foward while doing so).
      • On the pul side, it's now possible to pull that trick on High Noon as well. It's even more powerful due to the nature of your neutral E, but it's even more awkward. You get the clunkiness of it being the neutral E combo, while also getting that sudden burst of foward movement that you dont necessarily want.
    • EDIT : Least awkward way I could find to use that old trick is by using block + foward combo on bullet dance. You can even afford to throw a second hit before launching the big attack, because your first two attacks are shots. The awkward bit is that you have to hold block.
  • Suggestion for safe reimplementing of ragdoll on slam : make it a mod. Just a mod that improves the power of your slam attacks while enabling ragdolling again. Perhaps this could be implemented in Seismic Wave ?
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I'm going to repost what I put in one of the update threads:

That heavy attack bind (right stick "button") was fine on controller when it was for channeling, which is toggled.  Needing to somewhat frequently press the right stick button is really not good.  It's clunky and awkward to press while fighting (can't effectively rotate a stick while pressing it), and it's not great for the thumb, either.  I use the controller on PC as an accessibility feature due to some lasting damage from a long-ago hand injury.

I'm fine avoiding guns which use that as their alt-fire active button (I'm fine with mode toggles like the Fulmin, but anything which is press-to-fire I am happy to simply not use), but melee is an entire class of weapon. I can't use heavy attacks (and thus their mods) if it's just going to mess up my other hand 😉

Could that please be changed to holding the attack button or something?

Edit:  Ohhh, the "reload" button suggestion by Dragazer up above is even better.  Yes, please, that would help so much.

Edited by Andvarja
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The gunblade changes have made them unwieldy and nearly unusable for consistent shooting, especially while moving. Even standing still, trying to shoot through normal attacks just makes you bounce around the map and miss everything. Please give us a way to consistently shoot (including while moving) either by holding E, the way the old charge attack worked, or making one of the stances allow you to shoot repeatedly without forced movement through the combos. Right now the only way to reliably shoot with a gunblade is to use the heavy attack, which is not only incredibly slow, but also eats your entire combo stack every time you use it. Because using the heavy attack is the only way to reliably shoot, things like Gladiator Set mods or Blood Rush are now completely useless on gunblades. The changes so far have both decreased build/loadout diversity for gunblades and, more importantly, simply made them far less fun to use.

Edited by Vesciroth
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One of the older and larger complaints of the melee combo system has been the animation locks. Completing 7 step combos feels great, but the animations completely lock you into the movements.

So let me get this straight. You have acknowledged that a large complaint has been animation locks? You are aware of this issue and admitted it? And this update is supposed to improve the situation?

I have just finished testing every single stance for every weapon that I own. My conclusion is that while you have improved some things, you have ruined many more things. Overall you have made the situation even worse for animation locks and slowed movement!

There was a thread posted on Reddit a few months ago, where a user tested all stances to see which provided unrestricted forward movement. I tested all of these myself and confirmed that they were accurate. I have now tested them again after the update and am disappointed at how many weapons have now been ruined.

The good:

  • Shimmering Blight (Polearm) now has unrestricted forward movement.
  • Iron Phoenix (Sword) now has unrestricted forward movement.
  • Gleaming Talon (Glaive) now has unrestricted forward movement.

The bad:

  • Vulpine Mask (Rapier) now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before. This means that the Rapier is now another weapon (like the Staff) that is better off without a stance.
  • Malicious Raptor (Claw) now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before. This means that the Claw is now another weapon (like the Staff) that is better off without a stance.
  • Nikana without a stance now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before.
  • Decisive Judgement (Nikana) now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before. Since this is also the case without a stance, Nikanas are now completely unusable for those that want unrestricted movement.
  • Sword and Shield without a stance now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before.
  • Eleventh Storm (Sword and Shield) now has slowed forward movement, when it didn't before. Since this is also the case without a stance, Swords and Shields are now completely unusable for those that want unrestricted movement.
  • Everything else still has slowed forward movement, just like before.

The only weapons that are usable now, for those that want to be able to move freely, are Polearms, Swords, Nunchakus, Glaives, Staves (no stance), Rapiers (no stance), and Claws (no stance). This is very disappointing. Please tell me you're going to fix this.

To say something positive, I do like the standardized combos. They are easier to understand, more intuitive, easier to perform. But I am very disappointed at how minimal the stance changes seem to be. I thought it was taking so long because you were redoing all the animations, but this doesn't seem to be the case. It's disappointing that not every stance has the four different combos, but I can live with that. But please, if nothing else, give us unrestricted forward movement.

Edited by SteveCutler
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Please change the Gunblade Combos to:
E: Shoot standing still (remove the flip that moves you forward. It's not meant to be a gap-closer). Make it a loop of just the first attack of the current RMB+W+E combo
E+W: OK
RMB+E: Decrease the forward momentum so we move a little less (actually this seems to be the best combo of the weapon... the only one that doesn't shoot the gun =/)
RMB+W+E: OK

Edited by Daiwulf
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