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(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

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Cost vs reward, heavy attacks just arent worth it. Youre essentially paying two costs. (combo counter + time taken to charge). Given that youre using your combo counter sort of like currency to cash in for a big attack, they really should be instant casts given you already had to spend the time building up the counter. Just doesnt make sense to have them take so long

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My aim button is set to "press" because of personal reasons, and mostly because holding aim and shooing is quite tiring for me (personal reasons). The problem is that everytime I do a block combo it keeps the button in the input history, so my warframe aims their weapon after finishing the combo, forcing me to press  "AIM" again.

In full melee mode this makes my warframe remain in a blocking stance after the combo, which prevents me from doing a neutral combo or forward combo in quick succession, because I end up using the tatical combos instead. This is incredibly annoying and reduces my choices.

Also, if I keep pressing the melee button after the first tatical combo, it will still perform the tatical combos, even though I'm not pressing "Aim" anymore, which forces me to stop for a second to stop this, which once again disrupts flow.

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I know that forward combos are meant for you to cleave through enemies as you advance, but if you want to kill a specific enemy with this combo you will likely run past them. You could solve this if you were to make so that only the first attacks require moving forward, but this would hurt the flow of going from one type of combo into another, so food for thought...

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Why the hell was the melee air thrust while pressing E mid-air removed? I noticed this was exclusive to melees like the two handed nikana Tatsu but now you applied this to all melees? Taking a Telos Boltace with you on missions is basically mandatory if you want that same mobility back now, I feel like a cripple without it.

https://streamable.com/0ywdq

Edited by ZenDash

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11 hours ago, Twistedsparkle said:

wow just wow
Ive been playing nonstop since the U26 launch and Ive been having a blast with the new melee

being absolutely positive that everyone would welcome it
I cant believe how theres so much hate for the new system that in my experience is so much better in every way

oh well atleast I am having fun

sometimes I swear this community is playing entirely different game than I am

I don't hate it, I hated phase 1 with a passion(I literally stopped playing altogether because of it), it's just got some fairly serious momentum problems to aerial attacks, heavy attacks, and all the combos. Every melee hit slows you down or locks you into a near motionless animations, hell even aerial attacks have had their leap removed in favour of DMC style aerial combos which don't work because in DMC you almost hover while hitting air targets unlike warframe where you fall immediately to the ground(before the first animation finishes).

Phase 2 isn't terrible, it's an ok system hampered by odd design choices that can be fixed with some tweaking, phase 1 was an abomination beyond salvation.

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Okay, after a lot of trying to figure out why I was blocking instead of using my Heavy Melee attack, I found out that it's because it got auto-assigned to Mouse 1, which is PARRY, which it doesn't show on the keybind list, but it's Parry.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If you're having issues with the new Melee system and stuff doesn't seem to work... Default your keybinds. Then change the stuff you liked back to the way you want it.

Seriously, it took me till... uh, 2 hours ago, so almost 3 full days, to figure out why Melee Phase 2 didn't work for me right.

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I've been having mixed feelings about this update.

On one hand, a bunch of the stances feel great. My fingers hurt from how much I've been spinning around and tackling people with Sword and Shields. It's fluid, feels strong, and is more flexible than the old stances. I've been having a blast with both Eleventh Storm and Final Harbinger on my Sigma and Octantis, and both shred through everything.

On the other hand, you have stances like Clashing Forest that feel much clunkier than before. Skyward Limb lacks its old momentum so it barely moves anywhere. Moving Resolute Flurry to neutral interferes with my muscle memory and generally doesn't feels less impactful than before given how little you actually move while using it.

Other stances like Defiled Snapdragon make enemies float away too much. I have to chase after them or stack range mods to make sure I don't automatically send people floating out of reach. I'm not a particular fan of the air combo system either, since it feels more like an afterthought and is much less useful when you're falling. I also miss the old Heart of the Naga flipping motion that could hit things around me more easily.

Tempo Royale feels a little awkward to use too, since the stance movements are a mishmash of the old ones that don't always flow well into each other. Rending Crane on the other hand feels much better than before and I'm reconsidering formaing my Dohkram because of it.,

Edited by Reppuzan

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Heavy attacks feel clunky and not worth it.

By the time you’ve charged the attack and smacked some mob with it, a gun would have thrown said mob into oblivion far before. 

The extra second also feels awkward when using the redeemer for example

And why can we not transition directly into a heavy attack from a gun? The lack of a quick swap mechanic here doesn’t make sense and it makes those of us who use secondaries to boost condition overload feel bad. No, seriously. An alternate keybind? Hold E? Transitioning into heavy attacks if alt fire does nothing for equipped weapons? I just want to spend my combo on a one-hit demolyst and not feel like my arm is outstretched for no reason. Same goes for literally anything else.

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The 2 Combos "Threshing Grain" and "Cut Thrice" of the "Wise Razor" Stance for the Tatsu were swapped.
"Cut Thrise" was also slightly altered with 1 or 2 more hits. I think swapping them was a mistake. The weapon feels a lot clunkier than before.
I dont think i will play it anymore. That makes me really sad considering i was almost only playing the Tatsu since its release.

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One of the slam attacks in Twirling Spire no longer actually triggers a slam. It just does the downward strike animation without the slam effect. This kind or ruins a really fun part of the stance and reduces the useability of Exodia Hunt.

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Eleventh Storm stance still has a bit too much forward momentum.
Some aspects feel a bit backwards.

Holding block and swinging twice throws your shield, and then lobs you forward.
Not holding block does very short shield bash.
Are those backwards? They feel functionally backwards.

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Maybe we can give a fresh new purpose to the heavy attacks, like maybe if you attack an enemy that has few hp and your attack is going to overkill him, after charging the heavy attack your character will execute a spectacular and brutal melee finisher to completely annihilate your opponent, and there could be an animation or two for each weapon type. Also killing an enemy this way will increase your combo counter by many points, so it can have a function and not just look cool. Or we could also have a separate mod configuration just for heavy attacks, instead of using the same slots for the melee weapon, maybe we can see them like an augment slot that will affect the charged attacks only, and then we may have a few new mods that can give more special features to our heavy attacks, like triggering an elemental effect in a small area (could be with a cooldown).

And please, whatever you do, let us use heavy attacks by holding down E again

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I generally like how the next melee phase turned out, but there are still 2 major issues similar in nature.

1. Neutral combo still moves player in the direction of attacking instead of being neutral - standing COMPLETELY still - why is that a problem? Because most enemies don't move with your combo flow, they stay in place and you need to jerk around a camera in order to stay in place, showing your back to the enemy, giving them free shots, because you can't block them.

2. Some if not all heavy attacks in neutral position charge you forward (something you could counter within old system by just moving backwards, now it won't let you) and even if you miss the target because of that useless charge it still drains your combo multiplier.

All I'm really trying to say here is: there should be a combo and heavy attack you can perform from standing completely still and not moving at all, only starting to move when you press the buttons responsible for moving your warframe.

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at some point I am hopping they make it so that heavy attacks are able to be used by just holding down melee like the old charge attacks, right now it kind of makes gunblades feel really clunky, and as far as the stances go with the whole rework i feel like the stances for gunblades need to focus more on the ranged attacks and any slashing based movements should possibly be locked behind manual blocking, i enjoy the extra damage they added and stats for the weapons thats has been nice but i think they need to start looking into the stances for the melee weapons some more since gunblades and glaives are more ranged melee.

I think this would really help bring out the unique traits that both gunblades and glaives have if they made their stances focus more on the ranged attacks they are capable of than the up close and personal attacks the other melee are there for.

did some testing with some other melee weapons, the Nikanas sem to be handling this all quite well so at least 1 of my favorties is working for this, other than that still want to see gunblades get much more fluid attacks and have the stanced updated to focus on thier ranged capabilites if you want us using slash attacks with them please just make a stance that focuses on up close and personal please make some adjustments so that i can use it freely at range again with no hassle like the gunblades could before phase 2 was released.

Edited by Daskrieg
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How Finishers initiate (Please bring them back to melee)

The biggest thing that I feel needs to be changed is how finishers now initiate. They need to be tied back to melee or at least have an option of being tied to melee.

It's extremely cumbersome as I now need to finger over the button (same ones used for movement) and press it when I think I get to the right spot. As it stands now if I want to do a finisher I need to get in position, stop (before touch the enemy if a stealth finisher), and hit the button hoping for the best. In the previous system if the finisher was no longer valid you would atleast strike the target instead of just standing there. It's no longer fluid and takes too much time maneuvering to do them (I main Ivara and one of the play styles of rapid finishers between targets is no longer valid).

Basically I can't move and activate finishers at the same time, I'm restricted to rolling to targets and "hoping for the best" as using crouch to close distance means I can't both crouch and use "use", and if I attempt to use a finisher on a target no longer valid I'll just stand there rather than atleast striking it (next best choice at that distance).

There are also other problems of:

  • Melee combos no longer working as intended: I'm sure finishers will be included to combos and if you need to time presses, wait for a specific hit to land, and STOP attacking so you can press "use" it defeats the point of some combos.
  • Mercy-kills are already difficult to identify, for people not used to finishers it requires extra steps that will be glanced over rather than having an intuitive system that allows for that option while maintaining fluid melee combat.
  • It practically eliminates the flow of combat in order to do finishers; it becomes something that if you want to do them you need to STOP fighting and make it happen.


While I understand that some people don't like them because they might accidentally do them, changing the binding from "melee" to "use" basically removes them from everyone. The point of finishers is to quickly single out a target, kill them, and move on in a quick/seamless/effective way.

If you need to stop fighting to them (finishers) then they've lost their purpose. Please atleast provide a way to link them to melee via gameplay option.

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Melee rework is quite viable and interactive so far. With that out of the way...

I must express severe disappointment in a few things regarding techniques. These aren't *too* serious, just more little things that made me raise my brow:

Animation "Changes":

- When it was stated in a devstream that the melee rework would take 'a lot of animation work' I suppose that meant instead, 'a lot of work splicing and placing animations we already made into different a order'. It wasn't quite specific enough to count as deception, but I feel misled regardless, at the thought that new attack animations and fluid combat, perhaps I was too anticipating for this in such a regard.

With that in mind, some animations are still dated and awful-looking. I understand that the developers can look at old animations and think "we made this perfectly good animation, no need to waste it", but some animations (Tranquil cleave leap slash/triple stab, Brutal tide hover punch, Sparring axe kick heavy attack/punch barrage, etc...) And many more, simply don't make melee feel good. And feeling is important, practically essential, for any melee gameplay, in any game. No good hit-reaction or satisfying windup, hurtbox, cooldown, or consistency in kill animations. The new animations tend to exhibit less of these traits, but regardless... Come on. I know it'll take a lot of work, I know that it'll cost more then a few mocap dollars, but I believe that it's long, LONG past overdue for DE to look at what they made in the past and improve it. And adding new stances (Whip stance for example) Won't fix this problem.

Please, I beg you all, go back. Don't leave these awful, alpha build-esque animation relics of the past in the game you want to push to 2021. Iff you want to modernize the game, you need to bite the bullet, and update all the old stuff up to speed.

Heavy Attack Mechanic disrupts the flow of combat as it is.:

- Heavy attacks are simply just charge animations re-used. And that's not right in my opinion. They should possibly be heavy *combos*, with their own chains and drain on the combo counter. They should be slower then normal animations, but still just as fluid without shaky arms before a powerful attack. Building to 12/200 with Blood rush and wasting it all just to bonk a Nox disrupts the flow of the gameplay so much. Let the drain please NOT take up the whole counter by default. But the main problem is, 'heavy' attacks have too much windup, and not much satisfying payoff. You aren't properly rewarded for using them.

Lifting:

- Lifting needs a better basis in combat. The fact that it can't affect bosses or status-immune enemies like kuva guardians makes the very point of the buildup useless on any enemies you'd actually need to CC. It also shouldn't take combo counter at all, in my opinion. Air combos have no satisfying finisher to them, and attacking enemies in midair should have a better emphasis and reward.

There's more, but I've already talked a mouthful. I actually don't mind a lot of things about melee 3.0 as it is, but I'm sure everyone here has valued input regarding those things.

 

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One more thing: I'm sure it'd be appreciated if Excal and Baruuk got their own unique finisher animations, like Valkyr. (Also, Baruuk getting the axe-kick lift heavy attack is just bad. Please at least add wind projectiles, like the rest of his attacks.)

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Just give an option to use melee for finishers, as it was for a very long time. I don't want switch to something, that is very unintuitive for me.

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Woops - sorry did not mean to post here, meant to edit a previous post. Please delete.
 

Edited by tyrael7
Mistake

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  • Heavy Attack:

Too much to lose compared to its benefits. Losing all the combo for a powerful attack might be good sometimes (demolysts, bosses, capture targets), but it's a slow animation and very likely that the target will take a step backwards and you'll miss, also you'll reset your blood rush critical and weeping wounds status multipliers. Suggestion: instead of using 100% of the counter, make it use the equivalent of 2~4 multipliers only and reduce 50% of the current damage, so you will be more likely to use them mid-combos instead of just keeping the combo counter at max. Another option would be to only spend the counter if you actually hit an enemy (not objects).

  • Stance Combos

Some changes were good and the idea is really intuitive, where pressing W+E in most cases really makes you go forward and reach the next enemy, but some W+E combos don't move you at all, while the regular E combo moves a lot more. Same applies to some block+W+E combos.

Gunblades' E combo is broken. You move forward so much that it should be in the W+E combo, but i'd rather have it removed because it's really, really hard to aim with it. E combo should be a completely stationary shooting.

  • Ragdoll/knockback

Many Stance combos have a really big knockback. This is a problem specially with the E and block+E combos where you'll stay in place, like the block+E combos of Rending Crane and Blind Justice, where the 1st/2nd hits throw the enemy out of range of the next attack. Suggestion: reduce weapon knockbacks in like 80% in the E / block+E combos and keep the knockback of the W combos.

  • Lifted

Lifted seemed good on paper, but in reality it acts like a ragdoll that pushes enemies away from you out of melee range. Enemies should be locked in place when receiving the lifted status (even immune to knockbacks during the duration), so they remain in melee range. Heavy Slam twice in a group of enemies and NASA will call you to help them send things into orbit like you just did with the enemies. Nikana's Blind Justice W+E combo (includes a lifted proc) launches enemies towards your back at high speed.

  • Blood Rush/Condition Overload/Maiming Strike changes

Yes, they needed nerfs. The idea was to make other weapon builds viable. However what i've seen so far is: people either not going melee saying that it's dead or the Blood Rush+Condition Overload combo in crit+slash based weapons like Galatine, Gram, Atterax, Nikanas, Orthos, Reaper Prime, Scindo, Venka... and stances that force-proc slash. All these weapons I tested with this build outperformed by far anything else against lv145 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Auditors.

Edited by Daiwulf

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il y a 5 minutes, tyrael7 a dit :

As well, GHS just posted a few encouraging words about the Redeemer rework (0:22 to 1:05)

If the goal is to use it as a shotgun, killing blow + initial combo (riven or corrupt charge) easily one shots heavy gunners with heavy attack https://i.imgur.com/6d8SEUl.png

 

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I mainly use Heavy Blades with Tempo Royale Stance, and in my opinion, this new update messed up the combos and animations

It feels like Replendent Calma (before E, E, Pause, E, E,E) was split in two as the new Majestic Abandon and Replendent Calma. And the foward momentum that you had with Replendent Calma and August Mesto are gone

I'm not an expert on this, but my opinion is:

- Majestic Abandon should stay as E, E, E, E as before update 26

- Replendent Calma (keeping the entire combo animations as the one before update 26 and forward momentum) as Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E, Forward+E , or sometihng like Majestic Abandon (doing thefirst two moves of it) and then go with 3 times Forward+E

- August Meto (keeping the entire combo animations as the one before update 26 and mobility) as Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E, Forward+Block+E , or going first with Majestic Abandon (doing the first move from the combo) and then go with 3 times Forward+Block+E

- and Bold Reprise as Block+E, Block+E, Block+E

Right now, as of this update 26, Tempo Royale does not feel right

Edited by raposo90

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My melee review: I spent an entire Arbitration round invisible as Octavia wrecking stuff with melee as usual before realizing I had brought Twin Krohkurs instead of my usual Zaw.

  • Haha 2

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