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[DE]Danielle

(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

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Melee suffers extremely from liches and their thralls being immune to status procs. A lot of weapons are essentialy worthless against them. Maybe instead of them being completely immune to status, shorten the duration on these enemies, or make them ignore the effect, but have status technically "applied", so we don't lose damage. I don't know if it is possible, but a solution to this would be nice.

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The current input for Heavy Attack on controller (press the right thumbstick) feels really, really conter-intuitive and, well, just plain ... wrong, especially on weapons that do something on an heavy attack, like the Zenistar, every Glaives, on the Wolf's Hammer.

Please, at the very least, bring back the old input (holding down the melee button) as an alternative.

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I'm still doing a deep dive into the different weapons and stances, but so far this has been the most significant improvement to gameplay since Movement 2.0. Probably the biggest change has been to the variety of viable mod configurations - some of mine are centered around building combo for boosting mods and never letting it drop, like how many were before, but now I've also built some centered around pumping and dumping combo, and others that just rely on starting combo for spamming heavy attacks. Most of my problems have been technical, like some mods not working right and others only working if you're host. My initial thoughts and concerns regarding the current system:

-I'm not entirely sure how Glaives work alongside heavy attacks. The throw is on the heavy key, but it doesn't seem to either dump the combo counter or benefit from the multiplier / heavy mods. I'm totally ready to accept that this could just be me not understanding the weapon's altered stances, though.

-Heavy attack wind-ups are far too slow on the whole. I really only use them when I've modded specifically for them via either Amalgam Organ Shatter or Killing Blow, otherwise they're just too clumsy to reliably make use of, even while standing in the middle of a group that isn't getting vaporized by your teammates.

-Lifting isn't a significant mechanic. It's main use seems to be to keep heavier targets teed up for follow-ups if they should survive a heavy attack or heavy slam. In practice, it's basically just another status effect - which is fine, but not something I would go out of my way to mod for or even really think about while playing.

-Gunblades stances feel kind of awkward. I don't know what could be done about that aside from an entirely new, different stance, but in general they feel kind of stilted and janky.

Thank you, DE, for finally getting this update through. Hopefully I'll have more detailed feedback once I've put a few dozen more hours into the new system.

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Been playing some more, and i've discovered my main gripes are with the combos and heavy attacks: Combos don't feel fluid and lack the unique style that they used to have. I think it'd be a great idea if you could revert the stance combos back to how they originally were. Many of the other people here have posted examples of stance issues. Not to mention the superfluous addition of particle effects in many combos. Secondarily, The heavy attacks really aren't worth using. It's honestly better to just use blood rush for the extra crit chance. More feedback to come as i continue to fiddle around with various weapons, (P.S. Why do some forward combos slow you down???)

 

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really hate the fact that channeling was removed and not replaced with another mechanic to dissolve corpses. if there is any area in the mission that is even a bit larger so i can't cover them all with my abilities or kill them all within a few seconds, some enemy will spot a corpse or body part lying around somewhere and set the alarm off. completely ruined my channeling stealth run builds.

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Read all the negative feedback, especially about gunblades, and felt discouraged about the update, but then I was too lazy to switch out Redeemer Prime which I came to believe became useless, and my reaction was the complete opposite.

I never fully got into the melee system before, because it a) required to memorize a different set of combos for each weapon and b) required to be able to pull off those combos - I never fully understood how to make something like "E (pause) E" work consistently. There are great players who mastered that system completely, but I believe there are also noobs like me who still found it too complicated after 3 years in the game an maxed-out MR. My melee rarely got beyond spamming E E E E E.

But now, with this update, for the first time I actually know what I am doing. I don't need to open a list of combos and try to memorize it, I can just try out a new weapon and see how it works. The inputs are all distinctive, so I can easily perform exactly the move I want to perform and not fight with timing and my subpar reaction.

With Bullet Dance on Redeemer Prime, for example, if I want to shoot at the enemies in the distance, I do neutral tactical combo (block+melee). If the enemies get too close for comfort, I can jump back while still continuing to shoot at them with the neutral combo (melee), or I can slash the enemies right in front of me with the forward combo (forward + melee). It's so much easier for me now to react to the situation. I do hope that the broken charged attack usability on Redeemer Prime wasn't an intentional nerf, and DE addresses this issue, so that everyone who relied on it is happy again. (I also wish that air combo was shooting and not slashing.)

Yes, there are issues introduced with the change, there are unpolished stances, but I'm sure a lot of that is getting a fix eventually. Overall, I'm super happy about the new direction melee is taking. Thank you, DE!

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5 hours ago, Andikki said:

Read all the negative feedback, especially about gunblades, and felt discouraged about the update, but then I was too lazy to switch out Redeemer Prime which I came to believe became useless, and my reaction was the complete opposite.

I never fully got into the melee system before, because it a) required to memorize a different set of combos for each weapon and b) required to be able to pull off those combos - I never fully understood how to make something like "E (pause) E" work consistently. There are great players who mastered that system completely, but I believe there are also noobs like me who still found it too complicated after 3 years in the game an maxed-out MR. My melee rarely got beyond spamming E E E E E.

But now, with this update, for the first time I actually know what I am doing. I don't need to open a list of combos and try to memorize it, I can just try out a new weapon and see how it works. The inputs are all distinctive, so I can easily perform exactly the move I want to perform and not fight with timing and my subpar reaction.

With Bullet Dance on Redeemer Prime, for example, if I want to shoot at the enemies in the distance, I do neutral tactical combo (block+melee). If the enemies get too close for comfort, I can jump back while still continuing to shoot at them with the neutral combo (melee), or I can slash the enemies right in front of me with the forward combo (forward + melee). It's so much easier for me now to react to the situation. I do hope that the broken charged attack usability on Redeemer Prime wasn't an intentional nerf, and DE addresses this issue, so that everyone who relied on it is happy again. (I also wish that air combo was shooting and not slashing.)

Yes, there are issues introduced with the change, there are unpolished stances, but I'm sure a lot of that is getting a fix eventually. Overall, I'm super happy about the new direction melee is taking. Thank you, DE!

As a fellow gunblade user, I'm glad you're enjoying the new controls for the combos 🙂. And I'm also glad that even with liking the new combos you still mentioned that the old charge attack usability should be brought back for all the players who relied on it for gunblade use, even if you wouldn't use it that much personally. Too often on these forums people brush off issues that don't concern them, so it makes me happy to see a post like this where the changes fit someone's playstyle and they enjoy them, but they still advocate for others whose playstyles have been broken or entirely removed from the game through the total removal of core mechanics.

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I'm pretty sure people just tldr " gunblade stances are bad in the first place " instead. Dont need to explain more because yourself can test and see how it works in the game.

it boils down to " you jump and swinging and shooting like crazy but enemies still there. " 

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Good day,

after i had now some Times to play arround fidle my way and study the new Art of melee i really i see some Flaws on Thrown Melee weapons. So i gonna list Pro and cons for those on this update.

 

Pro:

- Better to handle in normal melee mode 

- better Combo feeling with Choosen Moves on Neutral, Tactical combos

- Stats are ok from what i could test

Cons:

-if you handle a Secondary and a Throw Melee you could use power Throw to force a Explosion , thats gone, but you can use Heavy Attack in this mode.

-Life Strike should be Applied if Heavy attack is used, if you throw those waepons while in melee mode with the Heavy Attack nothing happens, only Ground heavy Attack Slams give you the hp your looking for.

- Heavy Attack, if thrown, also ignores Power Throws Punch Through.

 

 

Edited by HackShield

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Tranquil Cleave's Windless Cuts combo stops movement way too much. Isn't it supposed to be able to chase enemies or at least have some sort of mobility, since it's a forward input combo? Instead if practically locks you in place. There are a few combos like this, and they feel very restrictive and clunky.

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Can we bring back the stealth attacks as your melee button? Or have separate bindings for mercy and stealth attack? I have my melee binded to my mouse, and its awkward to reach with my left hand to x every time I do spy missions. 

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On 2019-11-04 at 7:44 PM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Now that I think of it, let me emphasize this for everyone else in the boat with me that still doesn't like our "better" melee, so those of you calling us "haters" understand:

We don't hate it "just because it changed"; we hate it because the control scheme is substantially more awkward; the VFX are painfully overdone and ruin the look of genuinely cool designs; the beloved Combos we used for years having been gutted, rearranged, or removed altogether in favor of a new one that only bears the stolen name of its predecessor; BECAUSE IT WAS MORE INTUITIVE AND FAR LESS CLUNKY TO USE HEAVY ATTACKS, GUNBLADES, AND GLAIVES BY HOLDING E KEY, because restoring the ability to lock into a genuine melee state is a half-hearted measure WHEN YOU ALSO SHOVE IN A HORRIBLE, NON-DISABLE-ABLE FLASH THAT HAPPENS EVERY TIME A PLAYER LOCKS IN; because Exalted Melee weapons still lack their prior override, which ruins the feeling of rampage they once had, as we stop mid-Hysteria to aim a gun; because MANUAL BLOCKING STILL ISN'T TRULY RESTORED AND THAT ASININE AUTOBLOCK STILL EXISTS; because slam attacks cause a live recreation of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki whenever they connect; because enemies spray more sparks than gore these days, because that annoying-as-h - er, Void ragdoll was thankfully removed, only to be reimplemented in equally annoying fashion as the "Lifted" state applied by Heavy Attacks WE CAN'T USE ANYMORE, since they're bound to Mouse3; and because DE has kept akwardly shoving into melee combat about three dozen other greivances that we listed politely prior, and DE IGNORED THE CRITICISM ANYWAY.

That's why we're mad.

And maybe, I don't know, most of all, because this has now gone on for eight months, and with this track record, they don't seem likely to listen now. Eight. months. Do you know who responded in all that time, and still didn't give any real answer? Bear. Not Danielle, who made the thread then and has made these two threads now. Not Steve, their literal head who you think would have a vested interest in many, many players being mad at him. Not Megan or Rebecca, normally famous (until this year) for interacting with the community and answering questions. Just Bear. And he told us what was tantamount to "IDK, don't ask me lol". 

That's a tiny bit infuriating, and really tends to kill any love for a steadily worsening method of combat you once gleefully used.

this. all of this.

 

melee is now a hollowed out husk of what it was before. its clunky, unresponsive, and counter-intuitive. it does not behave in a natural expected way and stances are a pointless throwaway now.

seems to me that its just another casualty of the infuriating trend of dumbing down games on pc to accommodate console/controller users.

Edited by cha0sWyrM
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Some more opinions for you~ 

  • ‼️‼️Channel/Charge (Alt fire _ melee) should activate when holding down melee button instead of being bound to alt_fire. This would eliminate the awkward problem of trying to do a charge attack but not being able too because your ranged weapon got equipped while doing the aim_melee combos. Ideally, holding the melee button should cycle between the two charge attack animations so you don't lose DPS fiddling with input. ‼️‼️
  • Going into melee stance should still auto-block. 
    • Snipers should be able to HOLD alt_fire to zoom in to an over the shoulder perspective. This would allow melee users who enjoy sniper rifles (like myself) a way to aim-glide without having to do it in first person or changing to their secondary weapon. I still haven't entirely gotten used to it. 
      Quote

      ...Which could easily be solved by putting the jump glide on holding the JUMP button as in many many many other games.

      @supernils
      I actually like this suggestion better (although having an OTS zoom option for snipers would be nice for other reasons). Holding down jump should do a non-zoomed aimglide that would be perfect for the sniper/melee enthusiast.
       
  • We need keybinds to equip primary and secondary directly. If you're using dedicated melee stance, hitting either of the "equip gun" or "switch weapon" keybinds to get back to your ranged weapon cycles to whatever weapon you WEREN'T using. So it goes Primary > Melee > Secondary. I would prefer keybind options to equip exactly the weapon I want.

    BONUS (?) "OPINION" - You know you want an amalgam mod that lets bullets contribute to the melee counter. Do it. Dooo it. 
Edited by Acos

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Automatic Rumba (The LMB+E combo on Bullet Dance) feels awkward because of the first attack throwing the gunblade. It should be removed so it'd consist of only shooting like it was before. Furthermore, the first attack of most combo should be a quick shot like it used to be, because now it just feels weird to use and is inefficient at killing since all you do is moving around without actually managing to hit something.
I hope DE address the issues surrounding gunblades, because they're really terrible right now.

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A lot of "mobility" combos are not mobile, like decisive judgement. Or have clunky ranges, like tranquil cleave and Exalted Blade. Only Blind justice has good movility and intuitive attack range. Please fix this. 

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Please for the love of god add back air melee momentum, it just feels off to not get boosted mid attack.
I always used it for mobility to make jumps which normally would not be possible or quickly change direction.

Also some combos just stop you dead in your tracks which just feels bad.

Edited by --Q--ualityContent

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Melee stance polarities are still massively restrictive for no good reason, it just forces you into wasting forma or using bad builds as your mood changes.
 

We need the equivalent of an aura forma; a stance forma if you will...

Some days I want to spin around elegantly with tempo royale, others I want to charge into things and hack them up with cleaving whirlwind. Makes no sense to limit player choice like this, forcing us to maintain a bunch of weapons at the same time.

In some classes there are few good options too, why should people keep two fang primes incase they want to experiment a bit?

 

 

Edited by Ramflare

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On 2019-11-04 at 1:15 PM, DoomFruit said:

The way that melee weapons are now, L30 Grineer (at least) get splattered with a single ordinary swing of my Orthos Prime. If they die in one normal hit, why should I be forced into some stupid dance just because they're unaware of me? In fact, if they die in 5 hits, it's still faster to just swing normally at them rather than go into some annoying cutscene. If they take even more punishment, I still do not want to do finishers because I'm standing there motionless while all the other enemies are crowding around me ready to open fire.

It all comes back to control, player choice and movement. If you stop moving at high levels, you die. If you get locked into some long animation, you stop moving. I do not normally want to stop moving around, but if I do, it is because I explicitly stop pushing movement buttons. Not because the game arbitrarily decides "oh, you should be glued to the floor" right now.

On that we can strongly agree, as this is what's absolutely murdering the usability of glaives and gunblades after this update.  Both require you to melee the empty air in front of you just to switch to them, to be ALLOWED to do a throw/fire of the weapon (because it's on heavy attack which the game believes is an alternate fire input for your gun... even if it has no alt-fire).  This issue has been my other main soapbox for this update.

I just don't believe finishers work like this at all.  A finisher completely prevents inputs from the enemy you are finishing, and it's more or less body-blocking for you while you do it since you are so close to it.  Instead, I find a much higher risk at high level dying when TRYING to do a finisher and having units like Arson Eximus and Heavy Gunners just ignoring it by activating their cc-immune states (Heat Wave blast and radial fist slam).  If they cheese me while I am trying to melee them using the old melee system, I'm still pummeling them with melee attacks while they disregard my stagger attempt (to open them to a finisher) and they'll either die before they finish the animation or likely come out of the animation already-staggered.  Now they just riddle me with holes, because I'm still mashing the wrong key and only just registering that my desired input has been completely ignored by an enemy cheese state.

An alternative solution that might appeal to both of us would be to cut the nonsensical enemy cheese states with these cc-immune animations so that no one feels like the game mechanics leave them wide open to be killed in high level content due to things beyond our control.  However, I still feel this leaves new players to suffer the consequences in it being even harder to learn melee mechanics like finishers with multiple keys governing essentially the same function ("kill with melee"), and it will still reduce the flow and ease of gameplay for warframes like Valkyr and Gara.  Thus, this only feels like half a solution and doesn't truly appeal to me (then again, the freeing us up to keybind as we wish would allow me to complete the solution for myself, and now it is only the new player learning curve that is an issue, which is why that might be the most optimal solution for all).

That said, I don't expect DE to remove these age-old frustration-rich mechanics like the enemies just ignoring your crowd control attempts (while attempting to apply crowd control to you in both the above examples, which is cute) so I didn't offer the suggestion the first time.  I'll put it here for your consideration now, though, so you can see where I'm coming from and what I truly want, which isn't to ruin your own gameplay preferences (I know you never said that, but I'm just stating it openly for the record).  We're both dealing with the same issue of being left open to enemies standing directly at point blank range in front of them in high level content, but different playstyles mean that our needs are largely at odds and the freedom to keybind might be the best option.

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On 2019-11-04 at 3:15 PM, Dash_Lambda said:

Except executing finishers with the melee key is not intuitive.

When I was a new player, I was extremely confused as to why I would suddenly go from moving around and hitting things to being stuck on one enemy while a special animation plays. I actually thought it was a bug at first, and when I found out it wasn't I continued to consider it a bug in principle. If I press a button, I want to know exactly what it's going to do. Context-sensitive actions should depend on greater context, not circumstances: Gun mode, melee mode, operator mode, menus, etc. are contexts, a fleeting prompt that shows up right before you hit something isn't context.

What's more, tying it with the melee key meant there were certain circumstances in which you would be totally unable to use a melee weapon normally. I used to absolutely hate having an Inaros or Excalibur on my team because their abilities would force me to use finishers on entire crowds of enemies.

And I'm not a spin-to-win guy. My favorite weapon type is brawlers/claws, where I'm not just sweeping up rooms of enemies. So even when I'm going enemy-by-enemy, even when the finishers are fast, even when the animations are fun and satisfying, having finishers on the same key as normal melee attacks pisses me off because I'm telling Valkyr to swipe the guy, not suplex him or climb up on his back and break his neck.

So for some people it's not that finishers interrupt their happy little spinning macro, it's that they hate the disconnect that happens when you don't have control over what your character is doing.

 

On 2019-11-04 at 7:28 PM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Unfortunately, that's exactly the reason that the re-binding of finishers to X and changing of charge/ranged-gunblade/throw attacks from held E to Mouse3 makes me angry. That is making my character no longer do what I control. There is literally and objectively no keybinding in the entire history of computer games or computer-ported games that is worse and more clunky than clicking mouse-wheel/side-buttons. Who thought Mouse3 was what anyone wanted?

Maxim_M_Payne really brings to light an unmentioned source of the additional frustration for me in responding to Dash_Lambda's rebuttal to my initial post with the absolute absurdity of middle-mouse in the first place.  That said, I simply can't follow Dash_Lambda's logic on training new players.  If you saw a completely unique animation that was caused only when melee'ing during staggers, blinds, or sleep, why would you ever think it was a bug, especially since it is 100% reproducible?  I got extremely excited the first time I did a finisher with Valkyr and realized there was this entirely new melee mechanic I could now do which provided these awesome finisher animations and loads of damage.  It never crossed my mind for a microsecond that this was unintentional, and I knew exactly how I had done it.

The thing about ease of use, disconnect, and wanting control over the character that Dash_Lambda brings up rings much more convincing for me and I understand this pain a lot more than the new player experience rebuttal.  That said, I'm still with Maxim_M_Payne's reply on this as far as my personal opinion - but this does not make Dash_Lambda's contradictory opinion any less valid.

Right above this, I replied to another of my critics and concluded why I should probably settle for the option to keybind Use and Melee to the same key as I initially suggested, even though I only suggested it as the "no-backbone" solution.  It's the option that satisfies my needs and those of people like Dash_Lambda (and the other critic) with only new players that think like myself suffering in this situation.  It's the best for the largest number of people right now as I'm seeing it.

....Aaaaand we still need gunblades and glaives back to charge attack for firing and throwing as Maxim_M_Payne brings back up.  That's just something I'm not budging on.  Just look at how many people are complaining the same thing about the Zenistar and Wolf Sledge as well, which I've come to include in all my latest petitioning comments for this change.

Edited by Maganar
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My Suggestions

DE if you are reading this, please fix the charging window bug regarding to secondary+glaive combo. Make all forms of throw attacks count as heavy attacks; since glaive throws produce extremely low hits/second, either make glaive throws have innate combo efficiency or make them generate higher combo count when hitting enemies. Please also reduce the insta-killing self damage.

Read below for further details.

The Issue

After the update, there are two conflicting control schemes to use glaives, each with its own bugs/problems. 

1. With one-handed secondaries, E is held to throw. While in flight, press E again to explode/return glaive. There are NO ways to initiate heavy slams. There is a timing mechanic of initiating a heavier attack if E is held and released at the right time; however, the timing window is based on the weapon's base attack speed, and is unchanged despite attack speed mods/buffs and heavy attack wind up mods, resulting in heavy throws being impossible to execute once your current attack speed is increased by a certain amount. Your weapon is already thrown BEFORE the required button release time arrives. Even if your attack speed does not break the heavy throw, the window during which you must release E is partially squished out of the duration before throw, making achieving the throw increasingly difficult the more attack speed mods/bonuses you have.

Also, heavy slams cannot be performed

2. Without one-handed secondaries, middle mouse (MMB) is used to throw the glaive. After this update, equipped glaive can no longer be thrown from midair. 

A step back from previous versions is that while aiming or after aim-gliding, a regular melee attack MUST be used before any heavy attacks can be used. If you want to throw the glaive without a single-handed secondary in your loadout, you now waste time before throwing. Even though the glaive is thrown with heavy attack command, hits with the thrown glaive do not count as heavy attacks and do not benefit from Life Strike. Only the hit done by glaive mid-air explosion counts as a "heavy attack", which is extremely annoying because of the risk of being killed instantly by self damage. The combo count gained by thrown glaive hits is laughable.

Switching Glaive Control Schemes

When the two glaive equipping modes are switched, why do the buttons to perform the same action must change?

Self Damage

The self damage mechanic is extremely counter-intuitive to glaive gameplay as well. You use them mostly with regular melee attacks if your frame has enough tank to close the distance, and throw attacks are reserved for frames weaker in defense. However, these less tanky frames who rely more on ranged life-stealing throws are instantly killed if they get caught in the blast radius (glaives automatically turn to track the nearest enemy and bounce off objects unpredictably). As a result, for tankier frames, glaives are inferior melee weapons due to their unflattering stats; for squishier frames, glaives become a suicide launcher that tracks the closest enemy to explode on.

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2 hours ago, Maganar said:

-snip-

Don't get me wrong, I got excited the first time I saw it too. And the second, and the third, and so on... It didn't take long before I was trying to find ways to not do it.

For another analogy: It's like herding animals that are really eager to go into one particular pen. You go to herd them into their pens and hey, they're all going into a pen! You do have control, in a way, over where they go, and usually it shouldn't matter what pen they go into, but... What if you just want them to go into a different pen? You have to deal with herding animals that actively want to go somewhere else. I'm not a border collie, so herding animals is enough of a hassle without them having their own opinion.

Really, it boils down to this: Objectively, making normal attacks and finishers the same button gives you less control, while subjectively, it can give you more convenient control. It always has been and always will be my opinion that the only way to make good controls is to defer that decision to the player, which they've now done with the new system. If you have one combined control, you're screwed if you want anything different -but if you have two separate controls, you can always put them together.

Side note, that's actually my biggest reason for not finishing the Mass Effect series thus far. So many controls were grouped up and turned into multi-purpose keys whose individual functions you simply couldn't separate, all in the name of controllers.

Though it would bug me to have the use key double-bound with the melee key. That would suck on syndicate missions, those guys already love to get in front of you every time you open a locker, I can't imagine spamming the use key everywhere with them around. So from what I can tell you don't actually have an option to recover your old control scheme, I just hope DE makes that possible in the coming updates.

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16 hours ago, Acos said:

Some more opinions for you~ 

  • ‼️‼️Going into melee stance should still auto-block.

First everybody wants manual blocking back and then when they get it demand to keep auto block?

I mean I know, the critics don't *actually* want manual blocking, they just don't want scoping on aim glide...

Which could easily be solved by putting the jump glide on holding the JUMP button as in many many many other games.

I'm sure this has been said before multiple times and I really cannot understand how DE does not consider this solution. What's the downside?

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1 minute ago, supernils said:

First everybody wants manual blocking back and then when they get it demand to keep auto block?

I mean I know, the critics don't *actually* want manual blocking, they just don't want scoping on aim glide...

Which could easily be solved by putting the jump glide on holding the JUMP button as in many many many other games.

I'm sure this has been said before multiple times and I really cannot understand how DE does not consider this solution. What's the downside?

Do I seem like more than one person to you? I am giving an opinion just like yourself. Good suggestion on the jump-hold glide, but why the attitude? Why can't you just make a suggestion without having to be condescending at the same time? 

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10 hours ago, Maganar said:

and the freedom to keybind might be the best option

Oh yeah. I'd absolutely be fine with that. I get to play my way, those who want finishers on melee get to play their way, everyone goes away happy.

Player choice is the watchword here. Give us options, DE.

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