Jump to content
[DE]Danielle

(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

Recommended Posts

All advancing combos should allow free movement. Currently the ones that don't just aren't worth using. They deal less damage than neutral combos and still completely lock you in place, usually more so than neutral combos. This is especially annoying with Decisive Judgement, which used to have a looping combo that allowed free movement through the whole thing, but now doesn't. Atlantis Vulcan got to keep its free movement combo, why can't Decisive Judgement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feedback after some more rounds with Melee 2.99999:

With the old combo-counter my go-to weapons (Polearms all the way) carried me through everything, by "Naramon+Drifting Contact" (Ok, Primed Pressure Point was also on the case but I didn't need Blood Rush or Maiming strike), without breaking a sweat. This is gone. Sorties are still doable, just no longer a walk in the park, which is fine, IMHO.

Even if melee is less reliable on high level missions now, I like the general base-buff on most weapons - makes it interesting to revisit some weapons I didn't "get warm" with in the first try. And most of these weapons are way more fun now (Even daggers can be OK with Reach). Still I wouldn't use most of them, because their stances/attacks break movement. In contrast to the super-fluid movement of Warframe this still feel like obtrusive and clunky, like foreign bodies. For everything but Defense/Interception missions, I'll stick with Polearms because Shimmering Blight is mostly free of this.

Heavy Attacks feel like a wasted opportunity. On low level missions they feel irrelevant, since the buffed base stats kill everything effortless. On high level Mission, if I'm tempted to use them, I notice: They are Hard to aim, hits 1-2 Enemies at best and freeze me in place, giving the enemies to much opportunity to one-hit me. The only interesting version seems to be the Heavy ground slam because of the CC-Ability.

A suggestion: I would love to disable "Klick Zoom to get out of quick attack". Just using fire and quick attack to switch between them. This would allow to block, even when just in Quick-Attack mode.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any chance of getting an option to allow melee attack buffering again? I really miss being able to use block combos on the fly, without having to actually change to a melee stance. Although I really like the changes made to melee, I miss the seamless blending of melee and ranged you could do previously. You can still do it, but it's a lot more limited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Acos said:

Do I seem like more than one person to you? I am giving an opinion just like yourself. Good suggestion on the jump-hold glide, but why the attitude? Why can't you just make a suggestion without having to be condescending at the same time? 

Well you're certainly not the only one, in fact the demand was so popular that DE caved in and reintroduced the pure melee mode with this update. I wanted to point out this significance, because DE apparently misunderstood the problem a bit when they removed auto blocking. Sorry if my post came across rude or a personal.

One reasoning I could imagine for coupling gliding with aiming (or blocking) is that the gliding has more of a cinematic character (rule of cool) and if you could just jump and glide, that would have to be explainable physically/technically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melee Derpitude:

Once again you've managed to utterly obfuscate how to operate within your game. Gerd Jhab.

 

Just make it so we can switch to the goddamned melee weapon like we used to be able to and stop derp-flapping around with trying to

design some higgledy piggledy interface methods because you think warfame is a special snowflake; it isn't, it's a video game, we

need to be able to push buttons to figure things out and get on actually playing the game instead of spending hours lost and confused

as to how to do things.

 

Edited by Argenex
  • Haha 1
  • Woah 1
  • Applause 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using exodia contagion (the projectile one, I usually get the plague arcanes mixed up) has become even more dangerous because it sometimes activates when a player doesn't intend to. After you bullet jump if you are blocking bullets in the air (automatically, without any additional input) using melee will launch the projectile, which is incredibly bad because it usually results in an instant death anywhere but in very open areas. Please fix it, half of my deaths lately are because of it.

Speaking in general about the arcane, it has been very finnicky to use in close quarters ever since it was added. The worst part for me has been the second explosion, if I aim it to where I intend to go I have to wait for it to detonate before moving or else I will likely die while crossing. I would love it if the second explosion didn't deal self damage, that way I can use it on a group of enemies and then go in and finish them off.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got 1 thing: heavy attacks suck. They are slow, and their air slam barely affects enemies around you, unless you jump on top of dem, like Mario. And this change kinda ruined Excalibur, cuz he used to have some cool stuff with Life Strike. Seriously, either add a blade wave on Exalted Blade when performing Heavy attack, make it a forward-lunging pierce attack with some good distance, speed up it's heavy attacks by 30%, or give life strike an additional stat of increasing Heavy attack speed by 10-25%. Either one of those should fix that. That and, maybe increase the actual range of Heavy attack's air slam to the radious of it's effect. Cheers.

Edited by KVenom
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than that, I am glad you buffed every single weapon. Even the forced Impact procs on stances is not as annoying, as it used to be, thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The forward momentum on Nikanas heavy attacks makes them unwieldy to use. Probably also applies to a bunch of other weapons I haven't tried.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey DE. Lemme just say I am really enjoying the melee rework. I've definitely seen an improvement in melee weapon performance, especially in star-chart missions. In addition to this, I had always found that in the old system, increasing melee attack speed was a big deal in order to get a decent DPS. Now, I've noticed that it doesn't matter that some weapons are slow, because they are sufficiently strong enough to deal enough dmg to kill the enemy in an agreeable time, even lvl100+.

After the Kuva Lich's dropped and I was forced to partake in the 100+ missions (since my first Lich had reach lvl5), I had come to realize that, after 1000hrs, I have indeed reached endgame and the Lich's had forced me to become comfortable there. However, something I had found during this time was that some frames that I had previously been comfortable taking to sorties could no longer survive. This was because I had previously relied on Life strike to heal up my frames quickly enough to not be shredded once I took my fragile frames within smacking distance of the enemy. Now however, with the tying of life strike to heavy attacks, this has become more difficult.

My first experiences with the high lvl content so far is that in order to deal with the enemy's using melee, combo counter is very important. Since I don't have condition overload, I instead go for crit focused builds involving gladiator mods and blood rush to scale my damage enough to deal with these heavy hitters. To spend that crucial resource and source of my very important DPS on a SLOW, long duration between uses (cuz gotta rebuild that counter), heavy attack to heal an amount of health I'll lose a split second, after even with adaptation, I have found to be counter intuitive.

Now I will admit I am new to the endgame content and I enjoy doing missions solo. Survivability will increase in a well organized team with a dedicated CC frame and healer. However, if build variety is something you're trying to encourage, then in terms of healing Healing return is currently the better choice IMO. It is a reliable, consistent and sustainable source of healing that can support non-tanky warframes I had previously been able to bring in high level content.

Maybe I'll find a way of making Life strike viable, but please look into either speeding up Heavy attacks (since they are also not worth using, which was the original intention of the melee rework) or tying Life strike to something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the continuous hotfixes DE, its nice to know that you are listening and taking into consideration player feedback: 
Feedback for 26.06.1


MELEE


Like in my previous feedback. the removal of Rapiers' free movement was a big disappointment. They were already a niche used by few players. Weak range offset by being allowed to move freely mid-combo, and being being able to do hold down the button combos. It was elegant, graceful, and most of all fun ... embodiment of of the quick hit and run tactics of fencers. Now, its just stuck to a predetermined movement on the combo, killing any difference or niche it previously had.

Zenistar disc right now is more of a hassle to keep flying / raising the combo bar to make it worthwhile using.

Thrown melee is now way more clunkier and longer to use, especially with a controller. With heavy attack now switched to the old channeling button, you have to go to 'melee mode' first, THEN push the old channeling button. Am definitely in the camp that the previous button implementation made more sense.

Edited by seventhwalker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, after playing for a few days using the dedicated melee mode, here are my impressions:

Positives: 

  • I like the fact that manual blocking and dedicated melee mode are back.
  • Having block deflect all damage in a cone in front of the player is, in my opinion, the best blocking system this game has ever had.  It's not perfect - I would prefer the cones be wider - but it's way better than the systems from Melee 1.0 and Melee 2.0.

Negatives:

  • W+Left Click (again, I play in dedicated melee mode) is a different combo than W+Left Click while blocking, and the blocking combo always restricts your movement regardless of the weapon.  This forces me to drop my block before attacking so that I don't go barreling off somewhere I didn't intend to, and I find myself not blocking when I should just to avoid the movement restriction.  Can we please just not have combos with movement restrictions?
  • Cleaving Whirlwind's W+Left Click isn't even a combo - it's just spin 2 win, which is boring.  I thought you guys didn't want any of that anymore?
  • I still see the on-screen shield/health damage indicator even when I block a bullet.
  • I agree with others who have already said that Blood Rush and Condition Overload were overnerfed.
  • I agree with others who have said heavy attacks aren't worth using.  Too much wind up and too high a cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the point of daggers?

Before in the previous iteration of covert lethality they were basically a tool for doing finishers (and not much else), after the change any other weapon is better suited for that purpose. There's nothing DECENT that daggers do that EVERY OTHER weapon class doesn't out perform them on. There's no reason to use them (other than the pure radiation dagger or the syndicate radial).

This with the new finisher specific button makes finishers a pain to setup with no benefit.

I understand that some people don't want to risk being interrupted by a finisher while melee spinning through enemies, but with the break in flow it's more rewarding to just run through and mash a button than make the precision movement to pull off a finisher.

I also understand why people might think cover lethality would be overpowered, but you also have the option of running around with limitless energy and killing everything on a level with a button press (so I don't see why it would be).

What I don't understand is why both were taken away from us especially when a new "mercy-kill" finisher mechanic is added while you actually have to stop what you're doing, go out of your way to make sure you don't accidentally kill something while depleting it's health (non-thrall), repeat the process a dozen times until it procs on an enemy, move into position while pressing a button specific for it, and get a guaranteed health/energy orb; especially when there's so many innate abilities that replenish both at the same regardless of the frame you're using.

What's the point of implementing a new system that no one is going to use because it's too bothersome?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm loving all the changes so far. My feedback is entirely in regards to controls in relation to the new melee changes.

I find it odd and frustrating that I can't set left click (MB1) as the heavy attack button when the default is middle click (MB3). Since you can't fire your guns in melee mode anyway, I don't see why this is should be a conflicting keybind. Personally I miss the hold quick melee for heavy attack feature, but I understand why that might've been removed. 

Also, while I'm on the topic of controls I figured I should bring this up: since dedicated melee mode has returned, "switch gun" and "switch weapon" in keybindings work functionally the same. Tapping the button swaps between primary and secondary guns, while holding the button switches to melee. Personally I would like an option to mouse wheel through all 3 weapons (primary, secondary, and melee) without needing to hold a key. Might I suggest changing the options to "switch weapon" like normal and then "next weapon" and "previous weapon" options that someone like me could bind to mouse wheel up and down?

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A little bit more general and sword stances feedback:

- input chaining should be cancled by movement or other actions. To be clear I´m not talking about animation canceling. "Crimson Dervish" "Twisting Flurry" combo is a good example: The last attack has a very "generous" time window for the input memory and can only be canceled with the dodge roll even though the actual animation for the next attack didn´t start yet. Btw the combo menu says the full combo consists of 3 attacks (input wise) but it´s actually 4.

- ground finisher against enemies on the ground should have priority (at least when aiming downwards). For example trying to do a finisher against an enemy knocked down by "Crimson Dervish" "Twisting Flurry" combo is surprisingly difficult not just because of the previous point but the animation duration (without attackspeed mods) is quite long and you have not much time to find the exact position/angle until the target gets back up. In short: performing attacks close to a downed target should allow ground finisher no matter whether you are in a combo or not.

- same issues (ground finisher/ input cancel) for "Crimson Derwish" "Coiling Impale" and "Swooping Falcon" "Diving Kestrel" combo

 

- "Swooping Falcon" "keen Broadwing"s 3rd animation has connection/sticking issues sometimes (the reverse hit doesn´t hit at all not sure whether it´s supposed to though)

- aimglide aerial combos (blocks + attack while airborne) should prevent you from performing slam attacks when aiming downwards for more camera angle freedom (looking around) .

- all of the sword stances lack a little bit in terms of gap closing. Heavy attack could cover a bit more distance as well.

- Heat Sword regular slam attack applies heat status effect but heavy slam attack doesn´t

- Amalgan Javlock reflect damage seems to be removed but it wasn´t mentioned in the patch notes. Intended or bug?

 

Edit:

- when "Align Attacks to Camera" is deactivated you can not perform alternative combos (those who require "forward" as input) in the direction the warframe is facing.

- when "Camera Tracks Melee Target" is activated some of the attack animations detach the crosshair from the target

- "Melee Auto Trageting" stickiness is quite inconsisten and only works when you are extremely close to a target. It should always perform an attack in the direction of the nearest or last hit enemy when no further input is done

-  jump attacks ignore the "Align Attacks to Camera" setting and perform always in direction of the crosshair

suggestions:

- Since holding the "primary attack" button doesn´t perform a charge attack anymore it could act as an alternative to spamming the mouse button

- heavy attacks against shield lancer and guardsmen should break there guard and make them vulnerable to finisher. Prosecuter seem to be bugged since they can block your melee attacks while cc´d sometimes

 

Edited by Arcira

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do enjoy the ability to go back to full melee only, but there should be an option for the "use fire for melee input" to only apply when you have the melee weapon fully equipped, doesn't have to replace the same toggle though, can be a seperate option. I repeat that having both options is a very good thing, since I still do have a use for having the fire for melee input even in casual meleeing thanks to how my control scheme goes.

Edit: On that note, I'd love for the ability to initiate melee with the heavy attack from idle, like if you were aiming a gun, you could immediately use heavy attack to either heavy attack, or do a heavy drop attack.

Edited by Ninobanaani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melee seems much better than before, and it worked in that it forced me to use a weapon type that I wouldn't have used before. The fluidity of the melee is the best part. It feels good to use most of the time, with regular hits.

The heavy slam attack is visibly cool, and the lift mechanic neat, although not necessarily needed to survive. But it could be used as a CC tactic for newbie players when they don't have the mods to survive. Just before the update, I made an alt account to replay the beginning of the game again, to see how that is, and I had to resort to ground slams to cc corpus in a defense mission on venus, solo, ten waves. 

But melee still has problems. 

1. Heavy attacks is really one heavy attack. When DE said they were adding buttons to melee so that different melee combo attacks could be performed easier, I expected a dynasty warriors type of melee combo system.

For example: E is normal attack, right mouse (RM) is heavy attack, and middle mouse (MM) is alternative attack (like alt fire on guns)

So combos would look like:

E + E + E + E + E (all quick attacks)

E + RM  (one quick + small heavy attack)

E + E + RM (two quick + a slightly heavier attack with a slightly longer windup)

E + E + E + RM (three quick attacks + a even heavier attack with longer windup)

Etc.

The middle mouse button, alt fire, could be used on throwing weapons and gun blades, so we don't have to use a certain key combination, and have use of that special function without extra attack swings. 

ATM, right mouse button aims, switching from melee to guns, and my suggestion would remove that functionality, so only left mouse button or F switch key would switch to guns. 

2. Heavy attacks uses combo counter as a resource and doesn't do anything extra other than more damage. Using up combo count is something that games don't do normally, and in warframe, it feels like you don't get enough out of the heavy hit. But changing it to add extra combo would defeat the rest of the rework on combo counter. Most games that have heavy hits, have blocking and ways to break block. Maybe warframe can add ways for mobs to block our damage and we have to break it with heavy attacks. More enemy interaction is always a good thing, because the mobs won't feel like punching bags that just stand there and take our hits.

3. Still cannot vertically aim with melee. This one has been in the game as long as I have been playing, and it made hitting something at your feet hard, like a small enemy or a container. You couldn't fight down a hill or incline because you would whiff over the heads of the mobs. Range mods lessened this annoying oversight, one reason why huge range melees were more fun to use. The new melee system lessens this annoyance, even though it's still not fixed. All the quick melee attacks I have tried hits low enough for those containers, but still have trouble with some tiny enemies.

4. Because stances offer much more than capacity now (I ignored most attack combinations before and use only quick attack primarily) , and attack styles makes a huge difference in feel and enjoyment of a certain melee weapons, the game needs sneak peaks of the attacks, like how warframe abilities have little videos showcasing their abilities. This is a quality of life change that would be nice to have. 

Overall, melee changes are moving in the right direction, but still needs improvements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having a really hard time finding things to critique about the melee rework. What I will say is that I have never had more fun with melee than I am now.

Every melee weapon is devastating now. I can give my frames thematic weapons; Ivara can use Fang Prime like an assassin, Chroma can use Kronen like wing-blades, Valkyr can use dual swords like a berserker, and they are all destructive in all content. I couldn't be happier. Weapons that previously saw minimal or starchart-only use, are now seeing endgame use and it feels amazing.

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am 4.11.2019 um 02:31 schrieb Four_Skulls:

I can't stand the moves that require blocking.  For whatever reason I can't get the manual melee block to work.  Whenever I try it swaps to my gun and scopes in.  I got it work for one mission, and now whenver I try it scopes in.  Is there some secret I'm missing here?

 

You need to be in melee mode(hold weapon swap key for a second) to have manual blocking functioning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

other than the pure radiation dagger

Not any more. It's now radiation + some IPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am confused why there is a cap of 220 for the combo counter. It takes just a few seconds to max that out and with no real benefit to doing so. Can the cap be removed? Id love to see it go well past 220 hits. You all are seriously NOT using melee and it shows. Most of my builds revolve around melee in some way or fashion. I was truly hoping to see some actual love for those of us that like to use our melee weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Controls Feedback

With the new heavy attack and new ways to execute combos (e.g. Up+Melee) come large controls-related issues especially on Controller but also on PC to a degree.

 

Heavy attack on R2

Heavy attack on right stick (alt fire) is really awkward. In the options we can bind melee to fire button (R2), let us also bind Heavy attack to fire button (R2). And also seperate heavy attack/alt fire from each other so people can rebind them to their liking (both Controller and PC)

 

New stance moves execution

We now execute moves by holding either UP, AIM, or midair DOWN + Melee. Change UP+Melee to just MOVE+Melee but keep AIM+UP (why is explained in a sec). On controller, and also some on PC, pretty much everyone disables "Allign melee attack to camera" so we can aim our melee with the movement stick (LS) as we can't use RS while pressing melee (circle or B). This means everytime we walk left, right or down it does the neutral melee combo instead of the one we want to do. Thus change it from UP to just MOVE. However, keep the AIM+UP as AIM forces our character to face forward anyway and moving while in the gap-close animation messes up the move. Now with the midair move, DOWN+Melee, you could do the same change so you only do a slam if you don't input a move direction, however some people might not like getting used to that so maybe make it an option.

 

Animation cancel

This is equal for Controller and PC. Let us animation cancel with aiming and firing our gun and also with jumping. It's still incredibly clunky having to wait for the animation to finish and it even button queues the shooting and jumping. This would make gun-and-blade combat soooo much more better and less clunky.

These changes would make the new melee infinitly more playable on controller and even on PC and are honestly so much needed right now.

Thanks for reading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-11-06 at 5:37 PM, Acos said:
  • Going into melee stance should still auto-block. 

I just want to know why for love of all that is good in this world would you want this? Autoblock entirely removes control from players, interrupts all kinds of actions and slows you down more than it helps. You have such a good suggestion with separate keybinds for weapons so we can have better control as well, I'm confused! 

On 2019-11-07 at 10:28 AM, supernils said:

First everybody wants manual blocking back and then when they get it demand to keep auto block?

I mean I know, the critics don't *actually* want manual blocking, they just don't want scoping on aim glide...

Which could easily be solved by putting the jump glide on holding the JUMP button as in many many many other games.

I'm sure this has been said before multiple times and I really cannot understand how DE does not consider this solution. What's the downside?

The critics I have spoken to and have seen in the melee feedback megathread over the last year absolutely want manual blocking... not everything needs to be blocked and sometimes your build can specifically call for taking some damage intentionally, not to mention all the times where auto-blocking interrupts you and sometimes you just want to block constantly to protect yourself to get some recovery time. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Change "Neutral combos" to be triggered a diffrent way, there is no point in standing still with a melee when the game encourges moving foward and killing while you go.

Change the combos to require more skill than just spamming the melee button while moving foward, some combos are like maiming strike + whip in how they just need to face the enemy and be rewarded by spamming buttons to kill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Erase "heavy attacks" and "neutral combos", make neutral combos moving forward, but with the current "heavy attack" imput, so there are still 4 combos, and for the "heavy attacks" reduce windup and make their imput return to charged E or RM

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...