(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

[Diezen]

One of the best attacks from one of my favorite stance is missing, "Forest's Remorse" in the Gaia's Tragedy stance. The held e multi punch (now the standing block combo), from after the upper cut multi punches is gone. So now it's just an uppercut multi punch, single punch (no 15 punch combo), slow slam. I really miss the Jojo style ORA ORA ORA blender... Could we please have this attack added back into this stance?

Also on Tactical Dodges, the reduced roll distance while doing midair airglide rolls really kills mobility while having melee only out. Having shorter rolls makes more sense when grounded, but if you're bullet jumping, airgliding and rolling for moving around it feels really slow. Is it possible to have the reduced roll distance only apply when grounded? 

[vaarnaaarne]

Yea, too many movement locks around. A lot of forward combos (or forward+RMB combos) are just as slow as neutral combos. A related detail I noticed (dunno if this is just me), tactical combos can turn off toggle sprint. This is kind of deceptive, given that some tactical combos don't have a movement lock but seem to because they turn off your toggle sprint clandestinely. But at the root is that movement locks just feel off, at least on neutral tacticals. Just remove all movement locks at least on those. Some of RMB tacticals (ie, Tempo Royale) have a good flow to them though in spite of their lock.

 

One suggestion I'd have is to have the game UI tell the damage multipliers and forced procs on combos, that would be handy. These could make up for movement locks, but multipliers in exchange for the lock would have to be noteworthy for the slowdown.

Also, excellent call on making Life Strike work on Heavy Air Slam. Heavy attacks otherwise are still too clumsy to use in most cases though. They'd honestly need their own combo loops and removal of the charge wind-up.

[UuvoPlajaa]

Pls Don't remove Gladiator effect from Exalted weapons :((

[8faiNt]

Redeemer/Sarpa just doesnt feel right.

Edited November 1, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Andele3025]

Return Tempo Royale attack animations and hitzones to what they were. Keep the current modifier or whatever but the new moveset made by cutting apart the old one and badly stitching it together is terrible.

Even ignoring how the animations no longer look smooth, from the mechanical side:

LMB combo moves you forward when it should not.
Forward combo animation locks for a step and slows you down in the second half instead of being a smooth move forward.
Block Forward combo animations glitch massively, has weird transition gaps and seems to no longer have poise/hyperarmor/momentum/doesnt ignore explosion knockdowns.
Only the static Block combo which is the Bold Reprise slam is correct because its the only one untouched/you dont need to do the intro attacks for it but it wasnt used for them either way.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Andele3025

[sorcer3r]

Not possible to lift up Demolysts with heavy attacks.... makes heavy attacks kind of useless?

[Saturndoot]

Heavy attack on my Sword Zaw feels extremely clunky due to how long it takes and it feels more effective to just keep mashing E

 

 

[Vox_Preliator]

1)  Orvius

Okay, I cannot figure out the special throw on the Orvius.  Block+Altfire as listed in the Stats changelog does absolutely nothing, and even if it did would also interfere with guns that use the altfire button.  Unless it's expected to only ever use the throw that removes your weapon for an extended period when you have melee equipped and aren't dual-wielding or anything, which would be just plain absurd for a multitude of reasons.

I think I managed to make it happen twice by accident and it was some combination involving Heavy Attack, but it doesn't seem to be relying on the Combo meter or anything (nor should it, it would be clunky and unwieldy for no appreciable benefit).

On one hand, I like being able to make regular throws with the Orvius and have it bounce around and all, but it's just plain broken right now.  Maybe let charged regular attacks act like a normal throw, and charged "heavy" attacks (that only act as a trigger mechanism and aren't Heavy attacks as the rest of the new system treats them) are the special throw.

Also, Heavy Attack does nothing while dual wielding.

2)  Movement

I would like to echo the other sentiments here that, while Wukong made me really excited to have the system on all melee weapons, one thing that is making things just plain annoying is that the Forward+Attack combos are supposed to allow you to keep smoothy advancing, they seem to more often than not halt or otherwise make movement jerky and bad.  Look, Primal Fury feels so good to use, it's disappointing that its excellent feel wasn't brought to every weapon properly.

3)  Keybindings

With the return of being able to switch to a Melee weapon, can we have the "Equip Melee" key back?  It's awkward to have to hold the swap button when the entire point was to make Melee flow better into the rest of combat.  It would improve the flow if we could tap a button and instantly have our blade out without having to swing it first or wait for a hold command to process.

4)  Gunblades

Look, we use Gunblades to gun things.  We don't use Gunblades to blade things.  If we're using Gunblades to blade, it's because we didn't gun them before they got close enough to blade.  That's part of why Bullet Dance was so desired, it made gun the first thing a Gunblade does without the pointless and annoying swing first that messes with your aim and movement just that tiny bit.  I can just keep pressing the Heavy Attack button, but it's embarrassingly ineffective.  It probably did need a nerf all things considered, but making all gunblades feel awful to use isn't a good way to go about doing that.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Vox_Preliator

[SierraTheWolfe]

Heavy Melee needs to be reverted back on keybindings

• HOLD DOWN (Remapped key or E) at a length of time for Heavy Melee Attack 

I rather hold down the E button to charge up a Heavy Melee Attack, because it just feels more realistic and smooth when fighting. I am constantly tapping E when doing my combos, If I feel like doing a heavy melee attack then holding down E is far more quicker to use. Why should I be forced to use a completely different key? This just feels completely sluggish which creates delays when making attack selections. Please go back to allowing us to use a Hold Down (assigned key) option.

Keybinding for Energy Channel is also completely missing from the rebinding.

Maybe I am just missing something here, but there is no clue on what happened to energy channel. Are we just basically getting rid of it from the keyboard and mouse? 

 

Mercy Kill

Engaging in a mercy kill doesn't prompt a better notification, leaving the player such as myself unaware or not enough time to react. I find that the sound notification and the indicator over the enemy heads can be easily missed along with the specific action key. I really wish this was either automatically done or at least a special notification that scrolls across the screen to give the player a chance to use it. When there is just too much going on then less of a chance it will actually be done!

Edited November 2, 2019 by SierraTheWolfe
Added an additional feedback.

[Feuershark]

Please allow us to rebind "switch to  full melee" I bound weapon switching to my mouse wheel so I can't actually switch to full melee unless I bind something my my keyboard, and then binding it to my keyboard gives me two ways to switch guns, but I STILL have to hold a keyboard key to switch to full melee

Edited November 1, 2019 by Feuershark

[Andele3025]

51 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

3)  Keybindings

With the return of being able to switch to a Melee weapon, can we have the "Equip Melee" key back?  It's awkward to have to hold the swap button when the entire point was to make Melee flow better into the rest of combat.  It would improve the flow if we could tap a button and instantly have our blade out without having to swing it first or wait for a hold command to process.

On topic of equip melee, when the keybind is (HOPEFULLY) added back, can it actually work as equip melee/make melee your default weapon. Because now when you operator back or drop out of the map you return back to the damn guns.

[Daskrieg]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

4)  Gunblades

Look, we use Gunblades to gun things.  We don't use Gunblades to blade things.  If we're using Gunblades to blade, it's because we didn't gun them before they got close enough to blade.  That's part of why Bullet Dance was so desired, it made gun the first thing a Gunblade does without the pointless and annoying swing first that messes with your aim and movement just that tiny bit.  I can just keep pressing the Heavy Attack button, but it's embarrassingly ineffective.  It probably did need a nerf all things considered, but making all gunblades feel awful to use isn't a good way to go about doing that.

yeah the old method was alot smother since we could get the first light shot in followed by the heavier charged shot which was why we mainly use the gunblades.

1 hour ago, 8faiNt said:

Redeemer/Sarpa just doesnt feel right.

glade im not the only one noticing this i think we need to get these guys operating like they did before the patch with each shot molding flawlessly into the other since thats why we all use bullet dance and gunblades.

really want the heavy attacks to also be able to be executed by holding melee down just like the old charge attack system.

possible fix and or gunblades related idea

why not make the alt fire mode be availavle to the gunblades that way we can switch between gun mode and melee mode that way there can be heavy and light attacks for both modes of the gunblade.

[Vesciroth]

13 minutes ago, Daskrieg said:

yeah the old method was alot smother since we could get the first light shot in followed by the heavier charged shot which was why we mainly use the gunblades.

glade im not the only one noticing this i think we need to get these guys operating like they did before the patch with each shot molding flawlessly into the other since thats why we all use bullet dance and gunblades.

really want the heavy attacks to also be able to be executed by holding melee down just like the old charge attack system.

possible fix and or gunblades related idea

why not make the alt fire mode be availavle to the gunblades that way we can switch between gun mode and melee mode that way there can be heavy and light attacks for both modes of the gunblade.

Yeah I would also prefer it if we had an option to keep shooting without eating our entire combo counter stack, like we did before the update with charge attacks. It doesn't have to have the same 3x damage multiplier that the old charge attacks did, but please just let it be usable and comfortable to use both standing still and running like the old charge attack was.

[Auric]

Blind Justice Stance
I don't know if I just can't wrap my head around this but every combo excepting Zato's Creed is now mixed and matched to different combo attacks or to the name of a different combo and it's VERY jarring. 

Let's start here.  The neutral melee combo should be on forward movement, and the forward movement combo should be on neutral.  As others have stated already, this is a case of the neutral combo as it currently is in Phase 2 encouraging forward momentum to continue while the forward combo locks forward momentum but remains appropriate for retreats which doesn't make any sense.  The dodge cancels are nice and all, but the combos themselves should be switched if the goal is still flow.  While it doesn't seem like this should apply to the block combos because Phase 2 Destined Path starts with a forward movement attack, that movement too is locked and given its obvious defensive utility should be on the neutral block option rather than what should be the more aggressive forward block input.  More on that last part later.

As to the changes, lemme go over this.  Phase 2 Guiding Light is the new neutral combo and is basically old Destined Path.  Phase 2 Destined Path starts with the old Guiding Light Dashing slash but mangles Phase 2 Heeding Call to steal its combo ender.  Phase 2 Heeding Call which is the neutral while holding block seems to just be 70% of the old Heeding Call with a new slash ender; with the old kick into Slam ender removed to give to Phase 2 Destined Path.  Have I got all that right?  These changes I imagine were done for the sake of the stance feeling fresh but it doesn't work well, and there's very little actual Technique that can be displayed as the stance currently is in Phase 2.  It just doesn't flow well due to the way things have been adjusted.

Phase 2 Heeding Call feels incomplete without the kick -> slam finisher.  It feels like its best use (along with Phase 2 Guiding Light) now instead of completing the combo is to hold and release block to switch between neutral and neutral block combos infinitely, as neither has a combo ender that provides more benefit than just chaining between them infinitely for as little animation recovery and downtime as possible, but both would be better switched to the forward (Phase 2 Guiding Light) and forward+block (Phase 2 Heeding Call) combos to retain combat flow. 

Phase 2 Destined Path which starts with the Dashing Slash from old Guiding Light with what was Heeding Call's combo ender duck-taped onto it just feels bad to use.  Pressing block while attacking and accidentally move forward a little and it's movement you don't want, easily enough right off of cliffs.  It's just out of place entirely.  With old Guiding Light being gone, it might be best to move Phase 2 Heeding Call to the forward block combo for the same reason as moving Phase 2 Guiding Light to the forward combo, return Heeding Call's old combo ender that got moved to Phase 2 Guiding Light, and leave the Dashing Slash as an individual maneuver for neutral block attack with no other combination attacks attached to it (or else give it the rest of its old combo back because it felt a lot better previously than it does having stolen Heeding Call's ender).  As an individual maneuver on neutral block it would give an easy to use escape option for body-blocking swarms that won't go down before the player does which being a combo starter now makes it a good fit for whether you return the second half of old Guiding Light's combo to it or not, and would also play into the idea of displaying Technique appropriate to the situation.  But as the stance currently is, it's kind of a mess with its prior most fun aspects no longer feeling good or worth following through with to the end of a combo.  The one thing I really like is that the dashing attack of Phase 2 Destined Path is now the opening attack rather than being in the middle of a combo.  It is much better as a starter, and would be much better either as an individual attack, or with attacks more suited to follow it as the old second half of Guiding Light is.

So input-wise my suggestion looks like this (with melee F, block RMB, forward ↑)

Phase 2 Zato's Creed - F, F, F, F
Phase 2 Guiding Light - ↑F, ↑F, ↑F, ↑F
Phase 2 Destined Path - F+RMB (with three additional inputs were the dashing slash to get the old attacks that followed it back)
Phase 2 Heeding Call - ↑F+RMB, ↑F+RMB, ↑F+RMB, ↑F+RMB (where the final input is the kick into slam combo ender that it kind of needs to have back)

I'm sorry if this comes off as confusing, really.  But this is what happens to feedback when combo names get shuffled around.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Auric
Proof-reading

[Katze127]

I think the main point of this update is, how you can control and trigger your combos individually without making moves you don't want. For exampe: before the update, if you pressed E more than three times, then you flung over the enemies. Now that won't happen, unless you directly make that combo.
And I can say, this works fine. I really enjoy the combos in this new phase, and I like how fluent the switching between combos. Also it's nice, that you can do the RMB combos while the rifle or secondnary equipped.
Of course, some combos and stances need to be reworked after this, because it clearly visible what DE did. Just simply pull apart the combo fragments into several smaller, looping parts, so it's still far from complete. I tought the new melee system will be trash, when the phase 1 was released, but after the phase 2 I think, it will be really easy, fluent, and badass when it's finally completed.
Albeit some weapon (gunblades, glaives, etc...) need some revisit, because they aren't simple enough to fit into this small scheme.
8/10 so far.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Katze127

[-Kittens-]

Sparring:

Pro:

Brutal Tide finally works and is amazeballs.

Con:

1. Combo modifier damage seems way off.

2. Sparring Heavy Attacks need more damage and the double "ender" needs to be reversed: Barrage Punch needs to execute first now that heavy attacks no longer lock an enemy in place and the Axe Kick needs to follow to bounce the enemy into the air. Looks way better and flows much better, allowing aerial or standard follow up.

[Andele3025]

3 minutes ago, Auric said:

Blind Justice Stance
I don't know if I just can't wrap my head around this but every combo excepting Zato's Creed is now mixed and matched or switched to the name of a different combo and it's VERY jarring.  The neutral melee combo should be on forward movement, and the forward movement combo should be on neutral.  As others have stated already, this is a case of the neutral combo as it currently is in Phase 2 allowing forward momentum to continue while the forward combo locks movement which doesn't make any sense.  The dodge cancels are nice and all, but the combos themselves should be switched if the goal is still flow. But as the stance currently is, it's kind of a mess with its prior most fun aspects no longer feeling good or worth following through with to the end of a combo.

I'm sorry if this comes off as confusing, really.  But this is what happens to feedback when combo names get shuffled around.

Why good stances got butchered and then stitched together wrong is really beyond me.
But at least it would have been tolerable if the patch also let us rebind which attack chain is keybound to what (or at least drag swap around the available LMB, LMB+↑, LMB+RMB+↑ and LMB+RMB).

[GreyEnneract]

8 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

DEV NOTE:  Because so much is changing by design with THE OLD BLOOD, we want to be clear on how we’re handling your feedback. The majority of week 1-2 Hotfixes will speak to feedback. We want to combine feedback and stats together to iterate. To be a part of the feedback conversation please be constructive and clear (expand the spoilers below for a guide on how to write feedback), and most importantly, patient.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

HOW TO WRITE FEEDBACK: 

1. Keep it simple
Write simple, directed points about the topic you feel strongly about. Remember to be constructive and to the point.

2. Back it up
Support your points with concrete points. X has better stats than Y. This ability is less useful when considering X. Provide in-game situational evidence or a solid foundation for your argument to rest upon.

3. Be polite

The best feedback occurs when two people discuss opposing viewpoints to find a constructive middle ground. Discussion is a natural part of feedback! Ensuring that it is polite and without personal attacks is key. We’re far less inclined to listen to feedback filled with personal attacks and rude speech. We are all trying our best!

The Forums can be an amazing tool when used correctly. We look forward to hearing your thoughts on Grendel, how to acquire him, and his signature weapon! 

 

There’s nothing wrong with first reactions - but relearning takes time. We are especially interested in feedback from players who have taken time to understand The Old Blood. Thank you! 

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This thread will be used to house your feedback on the Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES changes from The Old Blood: Update 26.

If you would like to read up on all the Melee stat changes and provide feedback, please visit the dedicated Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback Megathread.

Melee PHASE 2: TECHNIQUES 

Expand the spoilers below for the full list of changes in Melee Phase 2: Techniques: 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Melee PHASE 2: TECHNIQUES 

Update 26 brings change to Warframe - it iterates on the game and Melee is no exception. For months Phase 1 has been in your hands, and it’s time for Phase 2. What follows is a detailed overview of our design direction and intentions with this new Phase. 

We are not touching Melee Riven Dispositions until we get updated data - expect advance notice when we close in on a date for this. 

We want you to know how your use of melee and feedback on the systems have helped form Phase 2, and how some changes are included to allow for a more cohesive Melee experience. Our tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that overall.  

Previously we made several changes to the Melee system (as detailed in the Melee Rework Phase 1 Dev Workshop thread) including: 

• Introducing a new quick-melee attack
• Full VFX overhaul on elemental damage types
• Aimed Slam Attacks instead of impacting directly below an airborne player.  

While select changes are to be rolled back (yes - see below before you react), the rest of the system served as a good foundation for this much more expansive Phase 2. 

Please bear in mind that these changes are not set in stone, and some aspects of the new Melee system will be tweaked during the usual QA process. There are some more features being added later on, introduced in Melee Rework Phase 3 at a later date. 

So what is covered in Melee Update Phase 2? 

THE GAMEPLAY

1. The Return of Equipped Melee and Manual Blocking!
2. Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging

THE COMBOS

3.            Stance Changes, Combos and You!

4.            Smoother Combo Transitions

5.            Combo Counter Rework

THE TOOLS

6.            Changes to Slam Attacks

7.            Goodbye Channeling, Hello Heavy Attacks and Lifting!

8.            Weapon Stats, Mastery Limits and General Melee Changes

9.            Mod Rebalancing / Functionality

10.          Exalted Weapons

11.          The Screens: Arsenal Changes

THE TECHNICAL BITS

12.          Aim Assist

13.          Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!

THE FUTURE

14.          Channelling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode” and Future Plans! 

As you can probably tell, this section is going to be a bit of a lengthy one, so make sure you sit comfortably, drink a nice cup of Greedy Milk and get ready to read all about how you can better turn your enemies into salsa with your favorite melee weapon! 

An overarching note before you get started, is that every Melee weapon that was originally a single Elemental damage type has been converted to Physical + Element, allowing for more Status reliability as well (Silva and Aegis excluded given Flame Blade).

 

THE GAMEPLAY 

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same.  

The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! (Don’t worry, Auto Blocking is still a thing!)

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

 

  

 

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

 

2.            Dodge Cancel and Tactical Dodging

One of the older and larger complaints of the melee combo system has been the animation locks. Completing 7 step combos feels great, but the animations completely lock you into the movements. We are introducing two new ways to put more control in your hands: 

• Dodge Cancel - Allows a player to activate a dodge any time during a melee attack to end the combo immediately and dodge out of the way.  
• Tactical Dodging - Dodging while blocking now performs this Tactical Dodge, keeping the distance short, and allowing you to remain within melee range. This is an effort to not break the flow of combat after cancelling out of an attack, but also if you need to make a quick escape!

 

THE COMBOS 

3.            Stance Changes, Combos and You

By far, the biggest change you will see in the new Melee system is the alterations made to Stances, as well how Combos interact with one another. In the old (current) system, Combos are an effect of button presses, all leading into a chain of animations. In Melee Rework Phase 2, attacks are buttery-smooth and adaptable!

This rework of Combos applies to every Stance, not just the weapon types. For example, Tempo Royale (a Heavy Weapon Stance Mod) will still have different Combos than the Cleaving Whirlwind Stance, even though both Stances fit the Heavy Weapon melee type. The difference now, is that both share a design that uses common movements and attack types. 

We also wanted melee attacks to feel more intuitive. For example, if you are aiming down the sights of a primary weapon or blocking incoming fire, and then hit the melee button, you most likely want to get in close! If you are not inputting a movement key while meleeing, it’s usually a sign you want to finish off your target. We wanted the new Combos to reflect that that existing movement, and so the new inputs reflect that situational awareness.

In most cases, the following improvements can be applied to any given Stance Mod equipped to a weapon (not just individual weapon types!): 

• Forward Combo (Forward + Melee) - This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.
• Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) - This move is usually a distance-closing opener, bringing you closer to the enemy and getting you within range to continue a harder-hitting string of attacks. The beginning or end of this combo can have a slam effect, allowing you to control the enemy, and during the mid-point of the combo, attacks will be large and sweeping, allowing multiple enemies to be hit.
• Neutral Combo (Melee button only) - Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target. The last attack can either have a knockdown effect, or throw them into the air and hold them there, if one set of strikes does not finish the job.
• Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) - First hit will likely be a longer thrust or throw of a weapon to increase range. Further attacks will be hard-hitting, and will often finish in a ragdoll effect or a Lifting Attack, as opposed to a knockdown or stagger. Lifting attacks are detailed in Section 7 of this workshop.
• Air Combo (Melee while Jumping) - Perform a combo in the air without sacrificing movement.
• Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going! 

Pro Gamer Move Example: Use the first, opening attack in the Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) to close the distance on the target, then transition into either a Neutral Combo (Melee Only) or a Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) to finish off the target. 

All of these fresh Stance changes has shone light on Whip Stances in particular not being as desirable in comparison to the others. We’re aware of this and are working on a new Whip Stance!

 

4.            Smoother Combo Transitions

In the old system, only the first follow up attack inputted would remain in ‘memory’ and would execute at the end of the initial attack animation. Any kind of input entered after the initial follow up was ignored until the next attack had started. In the new system, the next attack is being constantly updated, depending on the last input received.  

This allows for last-second decisions on combo changes to occur immediately after the first attack has finished. No more waiting for a combo attack animation to end before you can start spamming the attack button again! Embrace the fluidity!

 

5.            Combo Counter Rework

The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS! This will replace channeling's key binding, and Section 7 below covers those changes. This counter will be increased in a more granular and rapid way, and can be built by using melee attacks, blocking damage, radial damage from Slam Attacks and hits from a thrown weapon (such as the Glaive). 

As an expendable resource the Combo Counter should be easy to replenish, and the changes made should reflect how easy you can acquire and spend the Combo Counter resource. In addition, the ‘heaviness’ of an attack will have a measured difference on the amount of Combo Counter it increases. As a general rule, lighter, swift attacks will give lower additions to the Combo Counter than slower, heavy attacks will. Swing for the fences, Tenno! 

A SIDE NOTE: as a result of this new Combo Counter system, certain Mods are changing, but there are also some Mods whose stats will remain untouched, such as Body Count, as it retains the same functionality. All Riven Challenges related to Channeling have been changed to reflect ‘Combo Counter’. For example, Riven Mods can now have a + / - to not gain Combo Points on hit. The Mods that will see some changes are listed below, in Section 9. 

ANOTHER SIDE NOTE: Abilities that use the Combo Counter (such as Ash, Atlas, etc.) will scale at 25% of their former values, to make up for the ease of building a much higher Combo Counter Multiplier. This value is pending review for balance passes. 

• Combo Duration is now displayed as a bar underneath your Combo Counter!

 

THE TOOLS 

6.            Changes to Slam Attacks

The ragdoll effect of the Slam Attack is being removed (with some weapon-specific exceptions *cough*JatKittag*cough*), however it is being replaced with an effect that will push enemies back or knock them down, giving the player some breathing room, and setting the enemy units up for follow-up attacks.

Melee Rework: Phase 1 introduced the global use of ragdoll effects on Slam Attacks, so this is the second item to be rolled back, and replaced with a better way to rain down death from above! 

Also, all Melee weapons have received an updated Slam FX - come on and SLAM (attack), and welcome to the jam! 

 

7.            Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status

Channeling will be saying its final farewells in the Melee Rework: Phase 2 update, and instead is being replaced with a new form of Heavy Attack, as well as a new Lifted status effect. As we said before, Channeling Mods will also be changed to support this new system, as well as providing a larger pool of utility to choose from in your builds. 

These are the changes planned: 

• Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 
• Heavy Slam Attacks (Jump + Alt-Fire for Melee) - This new Slam Attack will create a new effect on targets, known as the LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft. Again, if you do not have any Combo Counter active, this will act as a Heavy Slam attack without a damage bonus, and minimal Lifting Status. 

But what about the Channeling FX you ask? Prime Armor Channeling FX will now appear when the Combo Counter reaches 2!

 

At the moment, the current list of Mods and their proposed changes are listed below.

• All Channeling Mods - have been changed to the Melee Parent type to bring them in line with Melee Phase 2 changes
• Amalgam Organ Shatter - Will be changed from Charge Attacks to Heavy Attacks.
• Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising 60% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2).
• Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.
  • During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
  • The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload
  •   Reveal hidden contents

     

• Corrupt Charge - Adds a large amount to the Combo Counter, but significantly reduces the time it takes for the Combo Counter to drain.
• Covert Lethality - is remaining as a Dagger Mod for now with +16 Initial Combo and 100% Finisher damage, pending later review. (Note: This has changed from what was laid out in the recent Dev Workshop)
• Dispatch Overdrive - Increases player movement on a Heavy Attack hit.
• Enduring Affliction - Increases the Status Chance on enemies suffering from the Lifted Status.
• Enduring Strike - Increases the Combo Counter chance when hitting Lifted enemies.
• Focus Energy - Add Electrical damage to an attack, as well as increasing Combo Counter generation.
• Focused Defense - Adds an additional 20 degrees to a weapons blocking angle.
• Gladiator Mod Set - Adds a multiplier with the Combo Counter up to 60% for the whole set.
• Guardian Derision - Will add more to the Combo Counter for blocking hits. (Note: The Taunt mechanic is still in place.)
• Killing Blow - Increases Heavy Attack damage and decreases the ‘wind-up’ time for Heavy Attacks
• Life Strike - Heavy Attacks will now regenerate Health.
• Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased 150%. 
• Quickening - Grants +40% Attack Speed, +20% Combo Count Chance
• Reach / Primed Reach - Will now increase range in a way that has been normalized. In the previous incarnation, long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit, while short-range weapons were barely seeing any increase at all.
• Reflex Coil - Increased Combo Point Efficiency when using Heavy Attacks.
• Reflex Guard - +100% Combo Count Chance while Blocking.
• Spring-Loaded Blade - Will now provide a maximum of 3 additional stacks of Melee Range.
• True Punishment - Add 40% Critical Chance, but reduces the chance to add to the Combo Counter by -10%
• Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, 40% per combo tier.

This update will also see some changes to the following Weapon, Arcane and Focus School buffs: 

• Zenurik - Inner Might - Has been changed to provide 60% Combo Efficiency, instead of Channeling Efficiency.
• Synoid Heliocor, Furax Wraith and Fragor Prime - All receive bonus initial Combo Count to offset the boosted Channeling Damage they had previously.
• Exodia Triumph Arcanes - Have been changed to +50% chance to increase the Combo Counter on hit.
• Exodia Valor Arcanes - Have been changed to +200% chance to increase Combo Count when hitting Lifted Enemies.
• Exodia Brave Arcanes - Now grants +5 Energy Generation when killing an Enemy with a Heavy Attack. This can stack up to 3 times. 

Again, some of these changes are subject to review and change. Now that Melee Rework: Phase 2 has been rolled out, there will surely be additional balance passes as usability and effectiveness are used (or abused).

 

10.          Exalted Weapons

All melee-based Exalted Weapons have received the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes. For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks).
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Unique/Exalted

Garuda’s Claws

• Parry Angle set to 60
• Range increased from 1 to 2.2
• Damage increased from 72 to 180 

Desert Wind

• Parry Angle set to 60
• Range increased from 1 to 1.2

Exalted Blade

• Parry Angle set to 60
• Range increased from 1 to 2.8
• Heavy Attacks added

Valkyr’s Claws

• Parry Angle set to 60
• Range increased from 0.5 to 1.7

Iron Staff

• Parry Angle set to 65
• Heavy Attacks added

 

11.          New Screens: Arsenal Changes!

Part of Update 26 involves a change of the Arsenal Screen, and how information is displayed. In the current system, your Arsenal screen looks something like this: 

 

In Update 26, this screen is being reorganized to include Loadouts, Companions and Vehicles in tabs, while also giving more information about a weapon when selected:

 

 

As you can see, new stats for Heavy Attacks and Heavy Slam have been added, with channeling statistics removed. 

 

THE TECHNICAL BITS 

12.          Selective Aim Assist

Aim assist can be a help or a hindrance depending on what type of attack you wish to perform. While the current system either applies to all or none (on or off), the new system will have more intelligence on aim assist on a per-attack basis. As a general rule under the new system, Aim Assist will be disabled for almost all attacks in the Forward and Tactical Forward Combos, and enabled for most of the Neutral and Tactical Neutral Combo attacks. Of course if you don’t wish to use aim assist at all, you can disable it from the settings menu as normal.

 

13.          Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!

Another common issue in user feedback was the unequipping of Gear Items (like the Codex Scanner), or dropping the ‘football’ (usually a pickup for Mobile Defense or Sabotage Missions) when equipping melee or using a melee attack. This has now been changed so that you will no longer drop items or unequip Gear Items when either equipping melee or using a Melee Attack! 
 

THE FUTURE 

14.          Lastly: Channeling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode”

There has been a lot of discussion around this addition, and while it will not be included in the Phase 2 update, there is a lot of work being put into its application. This system is very special and we want to make sure that it is not just a cool addition, but that it has roots in Warframes lore, and a story behind it. This is something we want to implement with a lot of in-game fanfare and details will become available as progress is made. 

For now, that’s it!

 

 

Need to report a bug? Visit the THE OLD BLOOD Bug Report Megathread.

These are first impressions after a few hours, but initial issues I have are Heavy attacks and Heavy slams don't grant you CC immunity, meaning you just blow your entire combo meter and don't even get to execute the attack. 
Then there's the Heavy attacks themselves, which need way more range (and I mean way more) to be worth using. Currently the Heavy slams alone are worth just because of their higher range.
A niche complaint is that Baruuk still doesn't build combo meter from his waves, and since he passively CC's enemies with his combos he can't land blows on them most of the time to build meter like every other weapon.
Exalteds also feel left out since every other melee received a base damage buff, have stances that give more capacity, and can still utilize combo mods.
Lastly, Shattering Impact needs a huge buff, seems appropriate to put here since it's a melee mod with its own mechanic.
I should be back later with my own thread after days of testing.

[KosmicKerman]

2 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Yea, too many movement locks around. A lot of forward combos (or forward+RMB combos) are just as slow as neutral combos. A related detail I noticed (dunno if this is just me), tactical combos can turn off toggle sprint. This is kind of deceptive, given that some tactical combos don't have a movement lock but seem to because they turn off your toggle sprint clandestinely. But at the root is that movement locks just feel off, at least on neutral tacticals. Just remove all movement locks at least on those. Some of RMB tacticals (ie, Tempo Royale) have a good flow to them though in spite of their lock.

 

 

This needs to be FIXED. I don't want to spend the entire game constantly re-enabling sprint. I have toggle sprint set for a reason. I'm not a fan of the warframe powers that do this but it's a complete no go with melee. I just spent an entire survival trying to figure out why my sprint kept being disabled. It's not just Block combos all melee use of the ninkondi prime turns off sprinting. GTFO. DE this is not a finished product that should have been released. This is still a WIP that you should have held back until you worked out the kinks.

Edited November 1, 2019 by KosmicKerman

[Chanzi]

How do you do the "Hold Momentarily, Then Release" combos? I always just do the first attack of the basic combo. Been trying different timing on it on Tempo Royale for a while now and can't seem to get it.

[kapn655321]

Gunsen feels SO GOOD.

Try it now guys. Oh man, this thing is brilliant.
Excellent work there, DE! Thank you.

[Timepool]

I wish that the sword & shield's unique gimmick— the shield throw— wasn't popped out with this. I used to love just tossing my shield at enemies, I made builds based on it even. It wasn't just a joke build either, the shield itself slightly sought out heads similarly to how thrown glaives seek them— getting that extra headshot damage quite often. I understand that this playstyle was probably a niche, but it was a playstyle I liked to utilize from time to time.

[HyokaChan]

2 hours ago, Diezen said:

One of the best attacks from one of my favorite stance is missing, "Forest's Remorse" in the Gaia's Tragedy stance. The held e multi punch (now the standing block combo), from after the upper cut multi punches is gone. So now it's just an uppercut multi punch, single punch (no 15 punch combo), slow slam. I really miss the Jojo style ORA ORA ORA blender... Could we please have this attack added back into this stance?

it got moved to fracturing wind block combo.

[Maganar]

The below "complaint" is pretty minor but I want it on the record.  Ignore if you want:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have one overarching gripe that after doing nothing for the last couple hours (possible longer) except Simulacrum testing melee performance (yes, their AI is on before anyone says anything about stealth multipliers) which is that it feels like there is absolutely no real room for skill expression.  I know this sounds counter to what DE intended - and it is - but it's true.  DE succeeded in raising the skill floor (slide-crit spamming through missions just isn't going to cut it in high levels anymore), but they also significantly lowered the skill ceiling by making it so you can mash the melee key while doing whatever you were already doing (running, blocking, or both) and you'll just automatically wallop the enemies with a ton of effects that cause them to get erased within seconds.  As long as you engage content with more than just a macro on your mouse button, you're already performing as well as you ever will.  The only thing that *vaguely* feels like skill is gauging the distance right on the Block+Forward gap-closer to make the most use out of it, and even that is "meh" as far as skill expression goes. 

That said, I don't see a way around this without just full reverting to the previous system, and that's neither realistic, fair to the devs, nor even the best idea (considering the death of slide crit meta and other positives make this an overall better system.  Thus, I want the above gripe to be taken only with a grain of salt: I'm putting it out there for the record and for DE to consider, but it's probably just a necessary sacrifice we're going to have to make.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On to matters of greater concern, now.

Glaives.

Oh, dear heavens, what has happened here?  Someone got the bright idea to make the new Heavy Attack key into the Glaive Throw.

No, no, no, no, just no.  This was a horrible idea.  It is no longer possible while wielding a primary weapon to immediately charge and throw your glaive.  You have to do a "normal" melee strike first to enter melee stance, and then heavy attack.  Simply hitting heavy attack doesn't work because it's the same key as alternate fire and the game doesn't recognize that as a heavy attack command while primary weapons are equipped (it thinks the attack is alternate fire for the weapon, regardless of whether the primary even has an alternate fire).  Worse, the first melee attack in the ordinary combo roots you in place.  Thus, in order to throw your glaive with a primary or akimbo secondary, you must stab the air with your glaive pointlessly, rooting yourself in the open to get shot to pieces, and only then heavy attack.

As if this isn't bad enough, the Heavy Attack to throw the glaive now roots you in place at the end of the swing, which was previously not present.  Since you are often in the open when throwing glaives (since you need a line of sight), you are now rooting yourself twice in a row (once to swap to melee by slashing the air in front of you, a second time to actually Heavy Attack) in a wide open area surrounded by lines of sight.  If you're not playing a tank, you're dead at this point in any content of higher levels.

What happened to the whole "gun and blade" concept that glaives executed so magnificently by letting you seamlessly strike with both gun and blade regardless of whether close or far from opponents?

Dual-wielding glaives with ordinary pistols is completely unchanged from before, which just adds to the confusion.  Now, in order to get the much better glaive throwing mechanic of "hold melee to throw," you must use a one-handed pistol and keep it out all the time just to get the glaive to work as glaives always should.  For anyone who has not been playing since before this change, this is only going to add to the confusion by adding a completely different set of mechanics and rules to the system if you have a particular weapon/melee combination.  In other news, the proc-applying pistol with Condition Overload glaive strategy is now more insane than ever with +120% per status effect, so I guess that tiny bit is a plus.  Then again, the strategy only works and isn't horribly unwieldy specifically because dual-wielding glaive throws haven't changed so you can actually take advantage of the increased synergy instead of being forced to root yourself twice just trying to throw your weapon.

I know why DE left this in.  It's because the dual-wielding is completely incompatible with the idea of Heavy Attack governing glaive throws, since the heavy attack key is again preoccupied (by the alternate fire of the secondary weapon).  This shows just how flawed the whole idea is.  This really needs to be reverted ASAP, because my favorite class of melee weapons feels like it got thrown into a dumpster fire in a patch that is otherwise just massively buffing everything across the board for the most part.

TL;DR - Actually using glaives as throwing weapons instead of slashing wildly with them is now super broken and sufficiently unwieldy that it's just going to get us killed in high level content.  Revert their throw mechanic back to "Hold to throw."  If you want, leave in the Heavy Attack key as an alternate way to 'auto-charge' a throw (only needing to tap it rather than hold it), but return to us the ability to hold the key down to make the throw occur.  Several interactions, like primary-to-glaive-throw swaps are just completely broken in this iteration and it's killing the entire fun of using glaives.  This is like the removal of manual blocking all over again.  Please don't wait as long this time to bring it back or you're going to drive me positively batty. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One final thing, but much shorter.  Trying to use the blind mechanic with Vaykor Sydon is an exceptionally good way to get yourself killed now.  The fact it is bound to the heavy attack key, and the heavy attack has a very long wind-up animation, means that if you misread the stack counter or don't have time to look and just try to blind, you end up leaving yourself sitting in the midst of a large group of enemies you were trying to blind, but now rooted in place and performing a slow animation that leaves you wide open.  So you just die.

Not sure what to do about that, but a simple solution would be for hitting Heavy Attack on Vaykor Sydon specifically to not register if you are holding down block and don't have full charges?  I just want to see something done about it.  The weapon's unique mechanic is meant to divert fire from you (while setting up enemies for the unaware damage multiplier), so having any misstep result in leaving you wide-open to enemy fire just feels counter-intuitive.

[Daskrieg]

2 minutes ago, Maganar said:

The below "complaint" is pretty minor but I want it on the record.  Ignore if you want:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have one overarching gripe that after doing nothing for the last couple hours (possible longer) except Simulacrum testing melee performance (yes, their AI is on before anyone says anything about stealth multipliers) which is that it feels like there is absolutely no real room for skill expression.  I know this sounds counter to what DE intended - and it is - but it's true.  DE succeeded in raising the skill floor (slide-crit spamming through missions just isn't going to cut it in high levels anymore), but they also significantly lowered the skill ceiling by making it so you can mash the melee key while doing whatever you were already doing (running, blocking, or both) and you'll just automatically wallop the enemies with a ton of effects that cause them to get erased within seconds.  As long as you engage content with more than just a macro on your mouse button, you're already performing as well as you ever will.  The only thing that *vaguely* feels like skill is gauging the distance right on the Block+Forward gap-closer to make the most use out of it, and even that is "meh" as far as skill expression goes. 

That said, I don't see a way around this without just full reverting to the previous system, and that's neither realistic, fair to the devs, nor even the best idea (considering the death of slide crit meta and other positives make this an overall better system.  Thus, I want the above gripe to be taken only with a grain of salt: I'm putting it out there for the record and for DE to consider, but it's probably just a necessary sacrifice we're going to have to make.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On to matters of greater concern, now.

Glaives.

Oh, dear heavens, what has happened here?  Someone got the bright idea to make the new Heavy Attack key into the Glaive Throw.

No, no, no, no, just no.  This was a horrible idea.  It is no longer possible while wielding a primary weapon to immediately charge and throw your glaive.  You have to do a "normal" melee strike first to enter melee stance, and then heavy attack.  Simply hitting heavy attack doesn't work because it's the same key as alternate fire and the game doesn't recognize that as a heavy attack command while primary weapons are equipped (it thinks the attack is alternate fire for the weapon, regardless of whether the primary even has an alternate fire).  Worse, the first melee attack in the ordinary combo roots you in place.  Thus, in order to throw your glaive with a primary or akimbo secondary, you must stab the air with your glaive pointlessly, rooting yourself in the open to get shot to pieces, and only then heavy attack.

As if this isn't bad enough, the Heavy Attack to throw the glaive now roots you in place at the end of the swing, which was previously not present.  Since you are often in the open when throwing glaives (since you need a line of sight), you are now rooting yourself twice in a row (once to swap to melee by slashing the air in front of you, a second time to actually Heavy Attack) in a wide open area surrounded by lines of sight.  If you're not playing a tank, you're dead at this point in any content of higher levels.

What happened to the whole "gun and blade" concept that glaives executed so magnificently by letting you seamlessly strike with both gun and blade regardless of whether close or far from opponents?

Dual-wielding glaives with ordinary pistols is completely unchanged from before, which just adds to the confusion.  Now, in order to get the much better glaive throwing mechanic of "hold melee to throw," you must use a one-handed pistol and keep it out all the time just to get the glaive to work as glaives always should.  For anyone who has not been playing since before this change, this is only going to add to the confusion by adding a completely different set of mechanics and rules to the system if you have a particular weapon/melee combination.  In other news, the proc-applying pistol with Condition Overload glaive strategy is now more insane than ever with +120% per status effect, so I guess that tiny bit is a plus.  Then again, the strategy only works and isn't horribly unwieldy specifically because dual-wielding glaive throws haven't changed so you can actually take advantage of the increased synergy instead of being forced to root yourself twice just trying to throw your weapon.

I know why DE left this in.  It's because the dual-wielding is completely incompatible with the idea of Heavy Attack governing glaive throws, since the heavy attack key is again preoccupied (by the alternate fire of the secondary weapon).  This shows just how flawed the whole idea is.  This really needs to be reverted ASAP, because my favorite class of melee weapons feels like it got thrown into a dumpster fire in a patch that is otherwise just massively buffing everything across the board for the most part.

TL;DR - Actually using glaives as throwing weapons instead of slashing wildly with them is now super broken and sufficiently unwieldy that it's just going to get us killed in high level content.  Revert their throw mechanic back to "Hold to throw."  If you want, leave in the Heavy Attack key as an alternate way to 'auto-charge' a throw (only needing to tap it rather than hold it), but return to us the ability to hold the key down to make the throw occur.  Several interactions, like primary-to-glaive-throw swaps are just completely broken in this iteration and it's killing the entire fun of using glaives.  This is like the removal of manual blocking all over again.  Please don't wait as long this time to bring it back or you're going to drive me positively batty. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One final thing, but much shorter.  Trying to use the blind mechanic with Vaykor Sydon is an exceptionally good way to get yourself killed now.  The fact it is bound to the heavy attack key, and the heavy attack has a very long wind-up animation, means that if you misread the stack counter or don't have time to look and just try to blind, you end up leaving yourself sitting in the midst of a large group of enemies you were trying to blind, but now rooted in place and performing a slow animation that leaves you wide open.  So you just die.

Not sure what to do about that, but a simple solution would be for hitting Heavy Attack on Vaykor Sydon specifically to not register if you are holding down block and don't have full charges?  I just want to see something done about it.  The weapon's unique mechanic is meant to divert fire from you (while setting up enemies for the unaware damage multiplier), so having any misstep result in leaving you wide-open to enemy fire just feels counter-intuitive.

this also sums up gunblades, both have gone from mobile and effeicent to just plain cluncky.