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(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

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Some movements on certain weapons, such as Mios and Nikanas feel a little clunky, but overall the changes feel so smooth and fun to experiment with. Thank you

Edited by Ryuhei_Aiyenshi

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18 minutes ago, Daskrieg said:

this also sums up gunblades, both have gone from mobile and effeicent to just plain cluncky.

 

21 minutes ago, Maganar said:

TL;DR - Actually using glaives as throwing weapons instead of slashing wildly with them is now super broken and sufficiently unwieldy that it's just going to get us killed in high level content.  Revert their throw mechanic back to "Hold to throw."  If you want, leave in the Heavy Attack key as an alternate way to 'auto-charge' a throw (only needing to tap it rather than hold it), but return to us the ability to hold the key down to make the throw occur.  Several interactions, like primary-to-glaive-throw swaps are just completely broken in this iteration and it's killing the entire fun of using glaives.  This is like the removal of manual blocking all over again.  Please don't wait as long this time to bring it back or you're going to drive me positively batty. 

Yup, it seems like DE was so focused on getting rid of charge attacks because nobody used them on most melee weapons that they unfortunately forgot about the weapons which relied entirely on charged attacks as their normal attacks, such as glaives and gunblades. Using the default feature of a glaive or a gunblade, i.e. throwing or shooting, should not be primarily locked to the heavy attack feature, especially since heavy attacks now eat all your combo stacks. The update has made it both uncomfortable and unrewarding to use glaives or gunblades for the things that makes them unique, which are their throwing or shooting mechanics. For higher level enemies (not crazy endurance run enemies, you will experience this even at levels below 100), I am incentivized to not throw my glaive or shoot my gunblade, because that will eat my entire combo stack, which I need to be able to kill the remaining enemies, and the single heavy attack simply won't kill enough enemies in a single hit to justify using it. We should never be incentivized to not use the primary feature of a weapon.

In keeping with what I have said earlier, we should be able to smoothly and repeatedly aim and shoot gunblades/throw glaives both on the run and standing still, like we were able to before the update, and this should not be a feature locked behind eating you entire combo stack. These shooting or throwing options don't need to have the same 3x damage multiplier the old charge attack had, given the increase to base damage and combo counter building, but they do need to be as comfortable as before and not consume your entire combo counter.

The mechanics of the old charged attack system, while bad and unwieldy for other melee weapons, were perfect for glaives and gunblades. And that makes perfect sense because, if I recall correctly, when the glaive was first released it was the only weapon with a charged attack, because it was the only melee weapon at the time that a charged attack mechanically made sense on. Other melee weapons don't need default charged attack mechanics for normal use, but glaives and gunblades have always needed them

Heavy attacks for these weapons can have bonuses like greater damage or (what I'd be more interested to see) different functionality, like gunblade heavy attacks firing an aoe knockdown/knockback projectile or glaive heavy attacks applying a guaranteed slash proc (these are just possible examples), but what they can't be is the only way to use the weapons for the reasons we love them, the reasons we've been using them for years, which are their old default shooting/throwing mechanics. 

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Wall latch melee attacks keep you locked in place until the actual attack is finished. This kinda seems like a bug since they used to launch you off the wall. Regardless, it feels terrible and make a niche melee technique all but useless.

I must also echo the sentiment that "forwards" combo strings that heavily restrict movement feel bad. As well as standing strings that have significant forwards movement are not great either.

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3 minutes ago, Vesciroth said:

Yup, it seems like DE was so focused on getting rid of charge attacks because nobody used them on most melee weapons that they unfortunately forgot about the weapons which relied entirely on charged attacks as their normal attacks, such as glaives and gunblades.

They also focused on making non heavy attacks terrible by ripping apart the few good stances that existed and randomly stitching the attacks together while animation locking both the no input and block forward input attacks.

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Honestly I feel like you took one of the greatest things in this game, melee, and ran it through a meat grinder and gave us the scraps.  The "combo" system is completely boring.  I enjoyed learning all the different combos and how to use them effectively.  Now it's just gone.  Based on how melee feels now, it's completely worthless.  All the hours spent learning combos and using them effectively were completely wasted.  Now everything is just smash *Insert key bind for melee attack.*  There's no expression, there's no skill involved.  It's just my grandmothers porridge, mother's side of the family, bland as hell.  But then again, I'm not surprised.  This has been in the works for what seems like an era and I knew that this is what we were going to get long before today.  Mind you with this isn't even considering the mega nerfs felt by all melee weapons. R.I.P warframe melee.  It's been nice knowing you.

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12 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

They also focused on making non heavy attacks terrible by ripping apart the few good stances that existed and randomly stitching the attacks together while animation locking both the no input and block forward input attacks.

i have also encountered at times some melee combo that makes my tenno throw the gunblade like a glaive..........really it shoots bullets and you make a combo where i throw it like a glaive, can i get this as a grakata alt fire.

 

on a side note i do find that combo funny when i acidently trigger it but can we please find a way to make the gunblades and glaives operate the way they did before phase 2 this new system while nice and fluid for some melee weapon probably needed at least a few more weeks to test out with the glaive and gunblades.

we need to have the gunblade stances ignore all the swinging unless in a block combo otherwise the stances need to fluidly do what most people use gunblades for.....shooting the gun part, likewise with glaives we need the throws to be unbound from heavy only, yes a heavy through or heavy guns shot should be in but make light ones as well so those of us who fallow the church of glaive/gunblade can once again have our fluid bringers of death and satisfaction operating in tip top condition.

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Dual-wield glaive stance didn't get phase 2 treatment.
While I understand that RMB cant be used because you need to aim with secondaries, having a forward combo and the rest of phase 2 would be very appreciated. For now its just an outdated option.
The throw part is okay. Please maintain that.

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1 minute ago, Daskrieg said:

operate the way they did before phase 2 this new system while nice and fluid for some melee weapon...

Nah, most melee stances got shot, gutted, taken behind the shed for illicit acts and then restitched with ducktape.

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I have concerns regarding a weapon synergy that I greatly enjoyed using between Ivara's navigator and the Zenistar disc (I'm sure other Ivara players know this setup as the "Ivara UFO setup").

Please for consideration:

I want to highlight a special setup that was known among Ivara player enthusiasts, the Ivara "UFO setup". It was an amazing weapon synergy that was really fantastic to use in combat. Basically you use Ivara's navigator to control the zenistar's disc and you could control it for the duration of the disc, just flying it around to kill enemies. It was a fun and amazing build and did a lot of damage but it costs a lot of energy to run it as a trade-off.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, I'll just reference Triburos video in the spoiler below so that you get an idea of what it was like.

Spoiler

 

Now I did make a video on my thoughts and issues revolving around Ivara's prowl and the new Zenistar changes (can be seen below), but I will also do text summary further below to sum up issues I want to highlight with the new melee changes 2.0 Technique in relation to Zenistar and Ivara. (I sort of rushed the video, text summary below is more helpful).

Spoiler

 

Given the new changes to how the Zenistar's disc works (working at a base of 10 seconds, and being increased based on the new combo counter) the Ivara UFO setup might be dead because it becomes far too cumbersome to build the combo meter in combat with Ivara and to be honest, Ivara was designed to discourage mindlessly melee spamming with her. Yet the only way to build up the duration on the Zenistar disc is to mindlessly melee spam it first before launching the disc.

Let me re-iterate the restrictions imposed on Ivara's invisibility prowl (base stats, before adding any mods to her)

- 2 energy cost per melee attack (note this also applies to stealth finishers)

- 3 energy cost per second while moving (I think this also gets stacked on while performing stealth finishers so you have to add this drain to the one above)

- 1 energy cost per second while stationary

- 10 energy cost per hit taken (note this even includes on shield damage. So for example, the "shield drain" from disruptions will actually chip away at your energy pool because that sadly counts as a "hit")

- and the basic movement limitations as well and loud weapons dispelling her cloak (there's more but I won't bore you).

None of this is ever shown in-game on Ivara's abilities stat screen. You have to use the Warframe Builder as an example of being able to see these underlying restrictions imposed on prowl.

The point I'm getting at is this. Generally speaking, Ivara's prowl is built with an extra energy drain on melee to discourage mindless melee spamming compared to other stealth frames. With the new system we are forced into randomly melee spamming in order to build up the disc's duration. If you happened to be an Ivara player that greatly enjoyed Ivara's "UFO build" with zenistar, well it's significantly harder to do such a synergy because you must spam the combo counter first (and Ivara is the only stealth frame built with "anti-melee spamming" mechanics to discourage such behaviour). I don't believe I have ever seen Ivara players trying to spam their melee in high level difficult content for good reason (for sake, level 100 enemies and above), especially in public games since stray bullets, AoE rockets and such don't care about who they hit. So it was always important for Ivara players to develop situational awareness of their surroundings and to not get caught in the crossfire between visible teammates and enemy projectiles. Melee spamming the Zenistar to build up the disc combo on high level enemies with stray enemy bullets/rockets is just suicide for Ivara players.

Also important, during testing of the new Zenistar changes, we found out that DE implemented another underlying "anti-afk" measure on the Zenistar disc that accidentally affects how Ivara's navigator worked with zenistar disc. After 60 seconds, if you have not moved, the zenistar's disc will be forcible returned back. Okay fine, except for one thing. I can't move because Navigator locks me in place! So while navigating the zenistar disc, after 60 seconds, it will be forced returned back to me. That kind of sucks. If I were to "theoretically" somehow build up this combo multiplier while in combat without dying to a stray bullet/rocket due to visible teammates, and get over 60 seconds on Zenistar and I try to navigate it, well I'll be forced out of it before my time is up. Wow, all that combo counter built up for nothing. Why bother trying?

And if you say "just don't use prowl" then guys, she's glass. She's paper for health and armour. Ivara has a meagre 65 armour and 225 health at rank 30, she really can't take a hit when things start to get tough. (I'll reference The Fool's 'Frame Tanking list' in spoiler below to give an idea of how glass she is).

Spoiler

She's like at rank 63 out of 67 frames, she really can't take a hit.

 

 

In closing - I've been wanting Ivara to get some developer review on her for some time now. Potentially speaking, Ivara Prime is next in line for this upcoming holiday prime release. While Ivara isn't in the worst shape, these new melee changes I think will affect how often people use her. She's a rarely seen frame at the moment in public games and it makes sense (for other reasons I won't list) and heavily relied on unconventional melee to be used with her in order to remain actually effective and helpful to your team on the combat field instead of being a hindrance to your team. No one probably wants to revive an Ivara during an arbitration I'm guessing. Zenistar disc + Navigator was an amazing synergy combo, but the current melee combo counter plus Ivara's "anti-melee spamming" restrictions built into her prowl plus the (probably not intended) anti-afk measure which kicks you out of navigating the disc after 60 seconds (due to Navigator locking you in place, accidentally flagging the afk measure) makes this painful to play. Re-iterated bullet points below:

  • Melee spamming with Ivara is heavily discouraged because she is glass (don't randomly melee enemies if teammates are beside you because stray bullets/aoe rockets do not care who they hit)
  • Ivara's prowl is built with an extra energy drain on melee to discourage mindless melee spamming compared to other stealth frames. But mindless melee spamming is the only way to build up the combo counter
  • The anti-afk measure on the zenistar's disc is accidentally activated whenever you use Ivara's navigator on the zenistar's disc for more than 60 seconds (because navigator locks you in place so you can't move).
  • A developer review on Ivara is what I desire as well. Since Ivara prime is coming up next, I am wondering how you guys will market Ivara since she's not new player friendly and geared more towards intermediate and advanced players (granted, some of the melee stuff is gutted so even more so wondering).

Some possible proposals to help alleviate the situation.

  • Remove the extra energy drain penalty on every melee hit on Ivara's prowl
  • Allow Ivara's navigator to override the time limit on zenistar's disc so that she can fly the disc for as along as Ivara has energy left in her energy pool (this is actually how navigator used to function back 2 years ago. Triburos's video above, actually shows him navigating the zenistar disc beyond the time limit).
  • Make new melee weapons that are actually geared towards being used with Ivara's navigator that actually work effectively in combat, that are simply not just glaives.  (Yes, I know navigator + glaive was the original combo from Dark Sectors. But out of all the melee weapons we have, that's only one category of melee weapons. Are we seriously expected to be only locked to one melee category with navigator given all the melee weapons we have? The zenistar plus navigator was an amazing alternative to glaives).
  • (Oh, I like one of the alternative ideas of what TheLexiconArtist proposed) - "make the duration start at its previous 45 seconds then add some FLAT time per combo tier (5 seconds per tier would even out the duration to the current format at 9x multiplier - cap would be 105 seconds at 12x instead of 120, not a big loss for the QoL of base duration)."

Also, (not exactly related) but glaives + navigator has been broken on client host connections for a while. I've been constantly trying to bump this thread to get a developer to look at it and fix it. This is also maybe why you don't see Ivara + glaive setups while on client (they're also slightly broken). Please remember to fix as well DE

Spoiler

 

Edited by BlindStalker
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Did more testing (solo'd Sortie 1 - infested survival) and Sortie 2 (exterminate - infested, armor enhanced) - and here's what I've noticed:

The Weapon I used to test was a dok Heavy Blade Zaw. It's a Crit Viral/Slash build:

Riven (+107% Crit Chance/ +74 Attack speed / -65% puncture)/Blood Rush/Primed Pressure Point/Primed Reach/Drifting Contact/Organ Shatter/Vicious Frost/Primed Fever Strike

Before: 3x combo multiplier in first 2 min of mission, tripling damage before crit

After: Double damage max. period before crit

Before: Exodia Hunt was a little harder to pull off, animations were a little slower. using Tempo Royale BTW

After: Exodia Hunt easier to pull off (in fact you can effectively spam slam attacks if you're willing to move almost nowhere), animations certainly faster, range is slightly smaller but not terrible.

Before: Sortie 1 Enemies would die just by glancing their way. Period. Any attack would decimate anything in my attack arc. doesn't matter what kind of eximus or ancients were around. For that matter Sortie 3 enemies or 1hr+ Kuva Survival Enemies would die in 1-2 hits unless buffed by quite a lot or I was debuffed by an extinguished dragon key or something like that.

After: at about the 8minute mark enemies were able to survive 2-4 hits easily.

Overall:

I'm not sure WHY a category-wide nerf was needed to implement these stylistic changes to stances/combo animations/etc - but it has made melee gameplay -almost- unusable, and for melee mains that means that warframe has become -almost unplayable-.

I would suggest returning combo-damage boosting and growth rates to their previous functions, significantly increasing ALL MELEE WEAPON damage by at least 2x-3x what it's new value is or instead reducing primary/secondary/ability damage by half/two-thirds. 

 

Melee was already balanced against the games other killing methods - you must get much closer to a combatant to kill them. It's like the two-handed sword vs. the .50 caliber - you can cut a man in half with either one but the rifle you can stay a long distance from them. If DE wants to keep melee a useful and fun part of Warframe they need to balance their melee weapons with the notion that they should be doing just as much or more than the strongest firearms in the game. 

Either way, will be watching the forums for updates and see if they fix this new massive imbalance issue. I'll be back when they do, or not if they don't.

 

SIDE NOTE: Good work on a lot of the update changes - I won't be investing time in the Kuva Lich stuff until you address the melee issues but looks good. The Animations and feel of the melee weapons I tried out does seem a little prettier and more entertaining if you ignore the poor performance. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, nokturnihs said:

Before: Exodia Hunt was a little harder to pull off, animations were a little slower. using Tempo Royale BTW

The Animations and feel of the melee weapons I tried out does seem a little prettier and more entertaining if you ignore the poor performance.

How can you say these 2 conflicting things in the same post? Tempo Royale got gutted in its combo smoothness (it had no animation lock or mobility alteration other than the gap closer parts of moves, with the horizontal spin being same as movement speed and notably steerable while the slide spin uppercut before slam was the actual gap close) AND In its animation quality (since the old attacks just got cut apart and restitched back wrong).

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1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

How can you say these 2 conflicting things in the same post? Tempo Royale got gutted in its combo smoothness (it had no animation lock or mobility alteration other than the gap closer parts of moves, with the horizontal spin being same as movement speed and notably steerable while the slide spin uppercut before slam was the actual gap close) AND In its animation quality (since the old attacks just got cut apart and restitched back wrong).

Well - I didn't test JUST tempo Royale and my comment was on the animations in general - also, I was trying to say SOMETHING positive about the melee changes even though I pretty much feel like the whole PHASE 2 changes are pretty much not my cup of tea. And it was fun for like 2min I was able to spam the living crap out of exodia hunt while standing there like a nerd just continually slam-attacking. It was likely a bug but it was about the most entertaining thing I've come across in the melee changes so felt like I could offer something positive..... 

Phase 1 wasn't bad. Phase 2, nope. Don't really care about channeling but at least it was useful on occasion with life strike, etc (heavy attacks sadly are not).

Invested a lot of money and time into this game. The Developers are good people and deserve some positivity, despite the fact that this was a horrible change and most people knew it would be. So yeah.... TLDR version - to be nice I guess? 🙂

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1 minute ago, nokturnihs said:

Well - I didn't test JUST tempo Royale and my comment was on the animations in general - also, I was trying to say SOMETHING positive about the melee changes even though I pretty much feel like the whole PHASE 2 changes are pretty much not my cup of tea. And it was fun for like 2min I was able to spam the living crap out of exodia hunt while standing there like a nerd just continually slam-attacking. It was likely a bug but it was about the most entertaining thing I've come across in the melee changes so felt like I could offer something positive..... 

Phase 1 wasn't bad. Phase 2, nope. Don't really care about channeling but at least it was useful on occasion with life strike, etc (heavy attacks sadly are not).

Invested a lot of money and time into this game. The Developers are good people and deserve some positivity, despite the fact that this was a horrible change and most people knew it would be. So yeah.... TLDR version - to be nice I guess? 🙂

Ironically, only on certain weapons heavy attacks are now the new meme strike. Certain weapons have innate guaranteed slash procs (like nikanas, scythes and claws). Heavy attacks have base damage, corrupt charge gives you instant minimum 2x damage, combined with life strike and windup reduction.

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Was testing new melee with heavy blade zaws. For some reason procing exodia hunt repeatedly on a group of enemies will slide you all over the place uncontrollably. Not sure if it's intentional or a bug, but it's very annoying when using tempo royale and procing hunt everytime. Keeps sliding me off the simulacrum map (and I assume it will do so on tile sets you can fall out of) causing me to lose any abilities I fully stacked or toggled such as chroma, ember, nekros, etc.

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So, this update is a mixed bag.

Some stances are good-ish, some awful. Clearly you are not finished with their rework. Some things I noticed:

Eleventh Storm causes bright flashes with almost every attack. It's really bad.

Vulpine Mask is dead. It was the most flexible stance of all, now it has neither fluid movement, nor can you stand still while attacking. It does no longer open enemies to finishers and feels terribly weak compared to before on a pure status Zaw - might be related to the Condition overload nerf.

Zaws do not block 100% damage.

Many stances have duplicate combos, generally affected are stances with fluid movement. For example: Shimmering Blight and Bleeding Willow, both stances have identical attacks (the old polearm quick attack) for almost all combos. Forward attack, neutral and neutral blocking are identical on both stances... This is actually great as forward attack, but the other combos obviously need to be replaced.

Many stances have immobile forward attacks. This is bad. Every weapon needs a good stance with free movement.

Finishers, how am I supposed to use them when no stance appears to enable them anymore? Rip Skiajati.

Gunblades: Before, we had a shooty stance and a slashy stance. Now we have trashy stances. Give me back a combo where I can just stand and shoot, also one where I can move forwards and shoot. At the moment the only solution is to disregard the stances altogether and just use the heavy attack.

Heavy attacks; Some cause a guaranteed slash proc, the others are trash by comparison.

Glaives: Generally good! But: Dual wielding has been overlooked. Also, when not dual wielding you still cannot throw them while in the air (except with a "slide heavy attack", presumably a bug and not conveniently usable).

To summarize: Bring back finishers, more mobility, several stances suck.

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show me your melee weapon killing lvl160 in the simulacrum

I wonder if anyone is managing to kill lvl160 (heavy gunners, bombards, nox, etc ..) as easy as it was before the update, without any arcane or warframe influencing death
I would like to believe that the damage efficiency remains the same and only the mechanics that changed the game

i'm not asking for your mods configuration just a proof that there is a way

Edited by Famecans
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20 minutes ago, Famecans said:

show me your melee weapon killing lvl160 in the simulacrum

I wonder if anyone is managing to kill lvl160 (heavy gunners, bombards, nox, etc ..) as easy as it was before the update, without any arcane or warframe influencing death
I would like to believe that the damage efficiency remains the same and only the mechanics that changed the game

i'm not asking for your mods configuration just a proof that there is a way

If there is, it's gonna be one hack of a Riven or a bug. I have a riven for one of my zaws that gives it a 96% crit chance with 5x crit damage and it was previously pretty powerful (oddly not as good as my dokrahm) - the same zaw untouched now does better than my dokrahm but it still doesn't touch the old damage either one would do. Unless you're running a chroma or other frame to significantly bump melee damage I'm not sure it's gonna be as easy as it was at all. Damage efficiency is WAY down in my experimentation.

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I'll be quick for this.

Fluidity and standardization were both reached, I love the way it was done. Of course, some stances may need balancing in terms of damage and utility, animations may end up changing, but it was a big step well done. I'm truly happy with it.

The only thing that I've noticed which triggers me badly is how the forward tactical combo is unreliable. I don't know why, but sometimes they just don't connect. Another combos plays often. It happens sometimes with other weapons. I've noticed this since Wukong's rework and I thought it was going to be fixed, but apparently it's not.

If it helps, I can show you in game what I mean. I don't know if it's understandable with words alone.

Thank you for everything, DE. You are the best devs alive. ❤️

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So it has come to my attention that Primed Reach now maxes out at +3 additive meters.

We knew that additive Melee Range mods were coming, but the final number was highly speculated and uncertain to this point.

On the last Dev workshop, we were shown a Rank 7 Primed Reach at 2.9 additive meters. That seemed pretty decent, because that mod would probably max out at a good value. However, the final maxed mod from this Update is almost the same amount as the Rank 7 from the Workshop. This means that it has literally been nerfed since then.

This is puzzling. If I read correctly, the new highest range Weapon from the Patch notes was 3.2 meters? (Unless one of the Weapons that didn't get buffed already had more range than that). This would mean that the new highest attainable melee range in the game (barring Rivens) is about 6.2 meters.

That's a pretty disappointing top end range. I understand that DE didn't want some Melee weapons to be reaching crazy distances anymore. But I feel like this is over-balancing. Range is one of the main things that makes Melee fun and worthwhile.

With these changes, shorter weapons remain pretty inferior and non-competitive. I imagine Players will probably continue using the long Weapons now that they are working with less range now in general. It makes sense to use the less-nerfed option. However, if Primed Reach made all weapons have pretty good range, I think people would take breaks from their old favorites to try out new playstyles with other weapons.

I imagine most players will ignore weapons below 2.5 meters, as that seems to be the new decent range. I was really hoping that a lot of the shorter weapons would be able to compete better. But if the additive Range mod just doesn't add enough, those weapons stay pretty short.

I'm going to recommend that Primed Reach be buffed to at least 4 meters. Perhaps even 4.5.

I don't think these numbers are crazy. Remember, the better Primed Reach is, the better short weapons get. This is because as the mod gets better, the difference between short and long weapons gets proportionally smaller.

These numbers would make all weapons capable of at least about 5 meters range, with some reaching a bit past that. I think that's a good situation. It seems more reasonable than nerfing Primed Reach back to 3 additive meters arbitrarily from the decent numbers we were shown on the Dev workshop.

I would also like to remind everyone that Range is very important to Melee. Because there will be decent Damage options in each melee category, with Range being the stat that really separates the meh from the great. AoE is very important in Warframe.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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Previously, air melee attacks would add forward momentum to your character. It wasn't just an offensive skill, it was also used as a utility in order to move faster while keeping lower to the ground, or making longer jumps. Now, it adds no momentum and can no longer be used to improve one's speed, which is an honestly big cut out of moving skillfully in Warframe.

Please re-add momentum to air melee attacks.

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Throwing, shooting or launching secondaries from melee weapons should not be affected in any way by combo multipliers, nor should they consume them. Instead, though it could and should be initiated by heavy attack the combo multiplier should be preserved.

Although, perhaps the combo should be consumed if you detonate the Glaive manually.

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Ok, Ive done some math: Blood Rush now only gives +60% cc scaled from base CC, any one of those changes individauly would be a huge nerf, but thats not the worst. Combo multiplier scales linearly with hits, but capps at 220. That means that all long term scaling melee builds are dead. And enemy scaling was not touched at all...

Those are the changes I would like to see: Combo multiplier scales with this formula: for lvl x combo mult, you need (x-1)*20+B^(x-11) hits rounded down, that would leave the current scaling section almost untouched and give us back the old BR scaling builds. B depends if the change of scaling from base or modded would be reverted. If it wouldnt, it should be low, like 1.35 or something a bit higher, if it was reverted tho, 2 or even 3 would be better. Another change that would be nice is the cost of heavy attacks, make it cost at max 200 hits, and regardless of the hits in total it would get the 11x combo mult but also all the effects of mods that scale with combo mult.

Why? Coz some people enjoy endurence runs that do not include strategies that walk around enemy scaling and just want their melee to scale a bit and see how long they will last.

Edited by Xardis
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Holding the W button even while attacking with the E key is a way to prevent the player from exhaustion in keeping their fingers up without touching the keyboard

pO3TTS0.jpg

The combination of W + E for sprint or sprint hit is a mistake as there are only two keys and these keys are of constant use to the player, makes frame out of control when trying to hit a fixed enemy.

We need to have a SPRINT by double pressing the W key while defending with MOUSE 2 button, something similar to rolling but this movement will be standing without evasion and the warframe will be exposed defending with the melee weapon MOUSE 2 button (this sprint needs to be affected by melee weapon attack speed mods and can't work if the warframe is not defending)

We need to have a SPRINT ATACK / HIT pressing or attacking consecutively with the E key while walking with W and defending with melee MOUSE 2 (may be the same animations and attacks that already exist, this sprint needs to be affected by mods). melee attack speed)

return the damage multiplier as there are enemies with scalable resistance, one way to avoid macro makers I would recommend creating a more complex combo multiplier that involves detecting full kit hits or even specific moves, warframe> primary> secondary> melee ... a more analog scoring system as long as the enemy takes damage different from the previous action, the more random the combination the more score is for the multiplier, rares eximus enemies with localized weak point as teralyst (please without shield globes) etc...

note: apparently the compliments don't specify which stance they're referring to, I just tried:
* Shighting Blight (good move)
* Seismic Palm (horrible movement, enemies flee floating to the sky)
* Bullet Dance (good move but enemies flee floating to the sky)

this text was created by a translation tool

Edited by Famecans
note
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I'm not a big fan of the heavy attacks / heavy slam beeing on the alt-fire button.

Previously when I wanted to activate my channelling (and so life-strike) I was able to toggle it on/off with one single pressing using the default middle mouse.

Now to use my life-strike I have to use the middle mouse to make an heavy attack. I prefered the possibility to toggle on / off the consumption for the life-strike part.

 

For the heavy attacking itself, it's more conftable than before to not have to "hold the key to heavy attack", but it's also not that conftable to have to middle-click for that. (I know we can change it, but i like having that toggling effect on the mouse middle click)

 

I got another problem with that heavy attack mecanics beeing on the same key as the alt-fire. On regular melee we can, since melee 3.0 phase 1, quick meleeing from our weapons. I use that a lot to move very fast using the directionnal-ground-slam with the E key. As the life-strike is now more efficient by using the heavy-ground-slam than just normal heavy-attacks, I tend to use that to make some crazy life-stealing move. BUT... The difference between now and before is:

  • Before: If I'm not mistaken it was possible to toggle On channeling and switcih to firearm, so I could enable my channelling and then bulletjump, shoot and ground-slam to heal myself. (I'm not sure if the channeling was still enabled on switching. I know on launch of melee 3.0 phase 1 it was deactivated everytime you switched to anything else than the melee, but I think it was staying activated on 25.8.2 at least)
  • Now: If I'm in firearm, I have to first melee and then alt-fire to be able to do any life-stealing.

It was more intuitive to have a "toggle" alternative mechanics on the same key as the alternative mechanics of the firearms. Now the melee alt-fire key is litterally an attack (it is also on some firearms but that's also not conftable at all, same goes for amps to me).

I have no solution to the problem I'm pointing, sadly, but I would have been way more conftable by beeing able to "switch on/off" the heavy attack "stance" rather than "press to heavy attack", or maybe not, kinda hard to say.

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Let's see:

  • Neutral and Moving melee still make no sense in some cases, some neutral melee attacks launch you forward and make you miss your target.
  • This means the change hasn't been quite significant, melee is still only good with certain stances and weapons thanks to the way you are either nailed to the ground during attacks or launched forward with only a bit more control compared to old stances, whips are specially bad now.
  • By contrast a bunch of "gap closers" barely move you 20cm forward and can even slow you down.
  • Strong attacks are impractical thanks to their wind-up, they should have been instant WITH a charge up option, still, thanks to the button they are mapped on that could be a problem (is not easy to hold the middle mouse button.)
  • I assume Blood Rush is dead if you use heavy attacks or heavy attacks kill Blood Rush as I predicted, is not quite clear.

In short, it seems that whoever was in charge of putting the combos together NEVER played the game or knew any of the stances movesets, oh, and combo counter is still too short for no good reason other than to waste forma and mod capacity in band-aid mods.

Edited by VanFanel1980mx
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