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(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

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A lot of the heavy attacks also seem to have some really weird behavior with Reach (like, I don't think they benefit from it, and they absolutely should) and many of them move forward in a sudden, clunky lurch that makes them miss basically anything you might try to hit.

11 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

I assume Blood Rush is dead if you use heavy attacks or heavy attacks kill Blood Rush as I predicted, is not quite clear.

Well, in my experience you can go from zero to 12X in a matter of seconds, so Blood Rush is doing just fine.

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A very casual and little feedback :

As far as i could play for now ( a couple of hours), i love the rework. Overall the flow feels better, it's fluid, and as a Condition Overload and Blood Rush user i barely feel the nerf.

(I mean, in practice i keep melting very high level mobs in a few seconds so, i don't have the math in mind but i assume the balance is good. Nice job.)

The feeling in battle is delicious, Crimson Dervish suits well and Carving Mantis benefits a lot from the fluidity added in the rework, for example. Didnt try the gunblades for now, but i also loved the epic slam i could do with heavy attacks. You just added a tons of epicness in this game, this makes perfect sense after the recent directional slam.

No real counterparts for now, just played 2-3 hours, not completely used to it yet but it felt f***** great.

And yeah, combo counter is also very easier to keep in mind with the refreshing bar, smart move.

Edited by Stonehenge
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1 minute ago, vaarnaaarne said:

A lot of the heavy attacks also seem to have some really weird behavior with Reach (like, I don't think they benefit from it, and they absolutely should) and many of them move forward in a sudden, clunky lurch that makes them miss basically anything you might try to hit.

Well, in my experience you can go from zero to 12X in a matter of seconds, so Blood Rush is doing just fine.

But I still don't get it, does blood rush only apply the critical chance on heavy attacks? if so then is quite the waste over having just high base critical and spam faster crits instead of waiting for a heavy attack to do one big critical hit, heavy attacks are still unreliable.

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2 hours ago, Etzu said:

I'm not a big fan of the heavy attacks / heavy slam beeing on the alt-fire button.

Previously when I wanted to activate my channelling (and so life-strike) I was able to toggle it on/off with one single pressing using the default middle mouse.

Now to use my life-strike I have to use the middle mouse to make an heavy attack. I prefered the possibility to toggle on / off the consumption for the life-strike part.

Life strike should just work on everything with 5% lifesteal (that can later when armor calculation/scaling gets fixed nerfed to 1%)

Heavy attack should be on the static block attack (like Bold Reprise the only leftover good move of tempo royale) and be charged (and i actually mean charged, thus how much combo is drained depending on how long you held the attack button down) instead of having (either a cast animation like charge attacks used to have or the current) windup.
That would also mean that in air normal attacks down would be regular slams while slams while block gliding would be heavy slams, leaving the channel button for future devil trigger.

Edited by Andele3025
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As I said before: I think an option to change combo inputs is needed. Some people rest on W all the time. Sometimes, you don't. Maybe they want to change it to something more toggle-able, like Sprint. I know I find directional inputs for combos to be weird as they were before these changes, especially when we can still slide-juke in a lot of combos.

Regarding Glaives (since I don't have anywhere near the same level of experience with other melee weapons) - it's probably a good idea to take the dual-wield function and apply it globally now, and let the charge attack button explode it as normal. We have two buttons to work with for-sure now, so we have the opportunity to separate recalling and exploding. Sometimes, I just want to bring my Glaive back, and it is awkward to have to pick between getting that with a weaker throw or losing my combo with a heavy throw. This is exacerbated because the punch through of the charged throw makes it behave inherently differently to the weaker throw, so there are times when one (weak throw, charged throw, or explosion) might be preferred depending on enemy layouts. I also won't lie: it's nice to bring back thrown Glaives in a non-violent way. Can't exactly explain it, but it keeps a graceful feel.

Plus it's, like, your signature weapon. They should get the most love by default. #NotBiased

Though I don't have the same level of experience, I think the same could go for Gunblades. Single-barrelled shots can map to regular throws, and double-barrelled ones can map to charged throws. It might need a unique reticle, and it might see a change in the nature of heavy attacks (able to be performed in the air at certain angles, maybe?), but I see no reason why it wouldn't work or be a more fluid expansion.

Edited by Tyreaus

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3 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

A very casual and little feedback :

As far as i could play for now ( a couple of hours), i love the rework. Overall the flow feels better, it's fluid, and as a Condition Overload and Blood Rush user i barely feel the nerf.

(I mean, in practice i keep melting very high level mobs in a few seconds so, i don't have the math in mind but i assume the balance is good. Nice job.)

The feeling in battle is delicious, Crimson Dervish suits well and Carving Mantis benefits a lot from the fluidity added in the rework, for example. Didnt try the gunblades for now, but i also loved the epic slam i could do with heavy attacks. You just added a tons of epicness in this game, this makes perfect sense after the recent directional slam.

No real counterparts for now, just played 2-3 hours, not completely used to it yet but it felt f***** great.

Bullet Dance is still uncontrollable with neutral combo, in the old format I would have preferred the bullet spam to just require you to press backwards to perform instead of just mashing the button.

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1 minute ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

But I still don't get it, does blood rush only apply the critical chance on heavy attacks? if so then is quite the waste over having just high base critical and spam faster crits instead of waiting for a heavy attack to do one big critical hit, heavy attacks are still unreliable.

No, blood rush applies universally, however it works like true steel, as in even at 12 combo and a base crit of 25, you only have a 5% chance of first level of red crit.
Reminder that crit weapons tended to compete with CO 3+ in a 1 crit level to 1 additional condition scale. As in both are mega gutted/at current max performance (which is easy to get TBH) barely perform equivalent to minimum investment they did before.

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So my Glaive Prime feels even weaker than I anticipated. You didn't increase the thrown and charged throw to what they were before, that is 5x and 10x the damage of the regular melee attacks. You also killed the synergy of power throw which now makes us have to tap attack again to get the explosion effect which if the Glaive has already hit a target won't go off. It also feels like the flight distance is shorter sometimes (inconsistent) which really throws off my timing and judging if a target is in range. The explosion radius also feels smaller and doesn't seem to do the knockdown as it did before. Also, again, we can't throw from regular quick attack and have to use heavy which locks you in place and compared to ground slam just isn't worth it at all. It'd be nice if the "heavy throw" did the ground slam explosion to make it worth using.

 

This is my favorite weapon and all the work I put into it getting a good riven and optimizing has gone out the window. Please give me back my regular throw, my power throw and scale the thrown and charged throw up to make them worth using. If you want to make a mod to give the old power throw effect that's fine but the tap to explode mechanic is really not fun at all.

 

 

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Could it be possible to re-implement ragdoll on slam through a mod ? I'm really missing that feature. It could simply be an added effect on the mod Seismic Slam, that I don't see much users equiping anyway. Or it could outright be a new mod.

I'd seriously be willing to spend a mod slot just to have fun popping stuff in the sky with slam attacks again. It was fuild, it was fun, and now that it was removed I'm seriously missing it.

I might have already added that after an edit in my precedent post, but I think it could be worth it to mention it again.

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10 minutes ago, Malevento said:

So my Glaive Prime feels even weaker than I anticipated. You didn't increase the thrown and charged throw to what they were before, that is 5x and 10x the damage of the regular melee attacks. You also killed the synergy of power throw which now makes us have to tap attack again to get the explosion effect which if the Glaive has already hit a target won't go off. It also feels like the flight distance is shorter sometimes (inconsistent) which really throws off my timing and judging if a target is in range. The explosion radius also feels smaller and doesn't seem to do the knockdown as it did before. Also, again, we can't throw from regular quick attack and have to use heavy which locks you in place and compared to ground slam just isn't worth it at all. It'd be nice if the "heavy throw" did the ground slam explosion to make it worth using.

 

This is my favorite weapon and all the work I put into it getting a good riven and optimizing has gone out the window. Please give me back my regular throw, my power throw and scale the thrown and charged throw up to make them worth using. If you want to make a mod to give the old power throw effect that's fine but the tap to explode mechanic is really not fun at all.

 

 

Adding to that, throwing melee from primary weapon is no longer possible unless you hit melee once at least, you can't detonate a glaive with quick melee anymore from pure melee or primary, only dual wielding, that makes it very inconsistent.

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UvIWuCI.gif

This kinda bugs me - watch the legs. Anytime you strafe during these "tactical" combos (which I believe you can execute while strafing or backpedaling, right?), your character's legs always register as moving forward. Pet peeve maybe, but I don't think one-handed swords or any weapons that allowed movement between strikes did this before, I pretty distinctly remember seeing strafing animations.

Edited by Gnohme
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14 minutes ago, D20 said:

Could it be possible to re-implement ragdoll on slam through a mod ? I'm really missing that feature. It could simply be an added effect on the mod Seismic Slam, that I don't see much users equiping anyway. Or it could outright be a new mod.

I'd seriously be willing to spend a mod slot just to have fun popping stuff in the sky with slam attacks again. It was fuild, it was fun, and now that it was removed I'm seriously missing it.

I might have already added that after an edit in my precedent post, but I think it could be worth it to mention it again.

I very very VERY much endorse this. Honestly I think as they start making fundamental changes to certain mechanics, like when wallrun eventually comes back to replace wallhop, they should always preserve the old mechanics through use of a mod or some unique customization slot they could shoehorn in. Ragdolling on slam was honestly one of my favorite things since they updated the slam attacks. I'd appreciate it if it were height-scaled so that if you were really high up with no combo counter it would just ragdoll them instead of stun. It's a little bit underwhelming as it is. 

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8 minutes ago, Gnohme said:

UvIWuCI.gif

This kinda bugs me - watch the legs. Anytime you strafe during these "tactical" combos (which I believe you can execute while strafing or backpedaling, right?), your character's legs always register as moving forward. Pet peeve maybe, but I don't think one-handed swords or any weapons that allowed movement between strikes did this before, I pretty distinctly remember seeing strafing animations.

Its because (FOR SOME REASON) DE decided to surgically cut off attack animations with a bloody massive meat cleaver and paste them together with duct tape, thus moves that would have animation lock now dont, moves that didnt now do and some attack animations flat out spazz the frame or snap limbs around. EVEN IF THE STANCE WAS ALREADY PERFECT *cough like tempo royale cough*.

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Yeah a lot of stances that previously felt extremely fluent now feel pretty choppy - especially the one I use for my Nikana. Can't remember the name atm - it definitely needs some work though. I like the idea of the heavy attack though I think DE should look at how other games execute it - like idk if anyone here has played Prototype? I kinda liked the way the old "hold to charge" attacks worked because it seemed like they were at least partially context sensitive to the attack you were doing at the time - Prototype had that in spades in which any attack animation could be charged to make a heavy attack, making for extremely fluent combat scenarios where you could react appropriately in the middle of any animation to finish someone off. I think DE would be better off keeping the hold to charge, and then supplementing the use of the channeling/heavyattack button as part of more combo chains. And that's the key thing I was hoping for here - with the separation of certain combos into movement inputs, I was hoping they would fill the gaps with MORE COMBOS. Or at least a more dynamic way they can link back and forth.

Edited by Gnohme
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Just like other players have said in this thread, I feel frustrated about the Bullet Dance changes. It ruined its fluency shootings before the update, and the attack speed is too slow.

IMHO, both of the gunblade stances might need some rework as the combos are full of unnecessary movements(e.g. rolling around or jumping) which not only make attacks feel so clunky but also let hitting enemy reliably almost impossible. My suggest is seperating blade-slash and gunshot, like making High Noon as cutting and slashing-focused and Bullet Dance as shooting-focused stance.

So, I've tried out this new “heavy attack” over few days, and sorry I think it just doesn't fit in warframe. It might look cool when testing on a single enemy in the simulacrum, but it's useless in real combat since the players are constant facing a large group of enemy. 

Edited by Acornturtle802
add some thought

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Because still there is no quick melee, I don't think that the whole update has a meaning. Again, no quick melee, no melee weapon at all. It is too annoying to be forced to fully grab the melee weapon ALL THE TIMES. Why you keep insist the stupid mechanism even if you can let it go?

Please, give me my melee weapons. Please.

Edited by DroopingPuppy

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1 hour ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Well, in my experience you can go from zero to 12X in a matter of seconds, so Blood Rush is doing just fine.

Well, taking into account that its 60% bonus now, not 165%, its 36.(36)% of its old effect, AND, scaling from base, not modded, its another multiplicative decreese to at best 62.5% of its old effect, so, at best, its ~22% of old Blood Rush effect. Granted, most melee got x2 base damage buff and so on, BUT, the effect of Blood Rush is capped to 11 stacks, and depending on where you want to take your melee, its another multiplicative decrease. There is no getting around it, Blood Rush builds for endurence are currently dead.

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As a sword and shield melee player, I can say that this update finally brings glory this weapon category! Final Harbinger is no longer uncontrollable, you can choose when to execute slashes or a leap forward to close the gap, love it, outstanding!

The 100% damage blocked with a successful block is very useful for the survivability of squishy frames, as you can keep blocking and retreat from the enemy while letting the shield recharge, another brilliant change!

But one thing that I don't like is the need to have another keybind for executing heavy attacks, it's a bit uncomfortable, can't we just use them by holding down the E attack (default melee attack button)? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that holding E button does nothing now, it's a bit of a waste.

Anyway I feel like this new melee system, where the combos will change depending if you are stationary or moving forward, could be further expanded in future, adding new attacks with new animations if the player is moving backwards or sideways, so for example if I'm moving backward my idea would be to execute a quick slash to the enemy in front of me while at the same time rolling or jumping back, it can be defensive or offensive, because I may want to retreat or to get myself ready for a leaping forward attack that can do area damage. Same thing for moving sideways, we could have some spinning slashes or jumping attacks depending on the stances, to reach and attack the enemies on our sides, as part of a combo!

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I have some feedback on combos:

In overall they are now smoother but for SOME weapons fluidity is now broken.

Gunblades with bullet dance - cannot chain shooting anymore using E+hold E and E+hold E+hold E.

It is VERY inconvenient to use without it.

Lost moving back+EEEEE combo.

Even if it was not used very often it was a good enough tool for holding back crowds while running backwards from them.

Zenistar - changing to middle click is bad choice for me, i would prefer hold E to launch the disk.

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Personally:

1) Liked the ragdolling it give you the feeling of the OOMPH that you slam the ground so hard it sends enemies flying

2) Also don't like the executions on X, because it makes awkward for me to switch around my finger from more comfortable E to down to x

3) How am I supposed to "hide" the bodies now that you removed the channeling? Am I missing something?

4) Still cant do silent kills with bonuses in any other way than exection... not fun.

5) Did you silently boosted Nox so they cant be killed by finishers with covert lethality? Thanks a lot *sarcasm*

6) Mercy kills - they go up so fast that the enemy is dead before I can stop shooting or slashing them.

Edited by Noir_CZ
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48 minutes ago, Noir_CZ said:

Personally:

5) Did you silently boosted Nox so they cant be killed by finishers with covert lethality? Thanks a lot *sarcasm*

no, covert lethality is the one that got the nerf

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Polearms: they now behave exactly like they used to with quick melee (at least with the shimmering blight stance). This is a Very Good Thing. Finally, I get my completely unrestricted movement back again.

...and that's about the only good thing there is.

Neutral combos are vital. You seem to have forgotten that it's what you'll be using when you're trying to circle around or back away from an enemy. They should never, ever have any movement restrictions. They're what's messed up for nearly every single stance. Movement over-ride should ONLY EVER be used for situations where it is explicitly justified - where your weapon is extremely heavy (and therefore slows you down), it has rocket boosters on it (self-explanatory) or where you've been attacked by an advanced enemy which messes up your controls and/or puppetmasters you.

Staves: these are now horrible. Flailing Branch (unranked!) is what I used to use because its sole combo (stationary) did not interfere too much with movement. That's on the forward attack, which is fine... but sideways or backwards motion while attacking glues you to the floor. That's unusable. The other stance is just as bad.

Single daggers: Homing Fang sucks. I'm pressing the backwards key and attacking. I have no idea why the game thinks that I should be launched forwards instead. Pointed Wind: exactly the same. Stinging Thorn: glues you to the floor and rockets you off uncontrollably in multiple cases. All stances here rip control away from you and are therefore useless, daggers remain mastery fodder as a result.

Dual daggers: Gnashing Payara neutral combo is abominable. There is no justification for being glued to the floor using slow attacks when using small, short-ranged weapons WHEN I'M TRYING TO STRAFE SIDEWAYS AROUND THE ENEMY. Spinning Needle isn't quite as bad, but still a lot of movement restriction. Sinking Talon is good. Free movement for all attacks (except the block combo), don't change a thing.

Single swords: Iron Phoenix neutral combo still shoots you forward, though not as much as it used to. I can kinda understand why, looking at the animation, but it's annoying and isn't for me. Crimson Dervish still has a lot of movement lock and over-ride, so useless to me. Swooping Falcon is a bit better with regards to movement lock, but it's still over-riding my movement input and as such also sucks. Vengeful Revenant - terrible. Doesn't matter what movement keys you're pressing, you're going forwards regardless of what you want. A useless stance.

Glaives: I can't throw straight from ranged weapons like I could do before (unless dual wielding with a pistol, which is inexplicably superior to sole wielding because of some strange MASSIVE inherent speedup on the animations). Without that, there's no point in me even using them. Stances: the neutral combo in both stances (what you use when strafing and going backwards) glues you to the floor = NO. Don't do this. Haven't you learned by now?

Also, the lack of explosion on the final bounce for Power Throw is extremely annoying. If the self-damage is a problem, just get rid of self-damage on glaive explosions. That's how they used to be right back at the start.

Gunblades: JESUS CHRIST WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? I can't charge up a shot without having to go into melee mode and explicitly press alt-fire and I can't melee (in any stance or combo) without being thrown around like a ragdoll. I thought it was bad before, but now?

Dual swords: I'm holding the S key down. WHY AM I GOING FORWARDS? (and this is the case for every stance)

Machetes: Without a stance, they're fine. Put a stance on... and the game once again decides that I knows better than I do where my character wants to move.

Rapiers: good until you put a stance on, at which point... whoops, looks like someone else has taken your puppet strings in hand. Rapier stances are, therefore, counterproductive and should be left at home.

Nikanas: every single stance is terrible, they all over-ride your movement.

Nunchucks: just as with rapiers and machetes, they're fine without a stance. Put one on and suddenly the WASD keys stop working.

Heavy blades: Tempo Royale glues you to the floor occasionally. Rending Crane also glues you to the floor in places and rockets you forward with the forward combo, Cleaving Whirlwind also has some elements of gluing and rocketing. I'm actually OK with some movement restriction on heavy blades. They have huge stats (both damage and range), so it's actually a good way to balance them against other weapons. I personally won't use them because of the gluing effect, but I'm actually OK with it existing on this class of weapon (and hammers too, I suppose).

Hammers: a fair bit of animation lock in both stances... but as for heavy blades, I'm actually OK with this. They're huge weapons. I don't like it, but I can very easily understand why it's there.

Whips: utterly horrible. There's nothing more I can say. Yet again, once again, the damn weapon thinks that it knows where my character should go better than I do.

Whipswords: exactly the same complaint about most of the new stuff. It still glues you to the floor or shoots you off in a direction completely unrelated to what you're doing with WASD.

Fists: Ditto. Movement override = bad. All the stances suck because of this. Exactly the same comment which I've been making for almost every single one of these changes.

Fists and feet: Still ridiculous impractical breakdancing, still worthless trash as a weapon category because of it.

Tonfas: Oh look, more forced movement. Oh look, more useless weapons.

Scythes: Ditto. Again. Even more forced movement.

Claws: without a stance, they're mediocre (doesn't interfere with movement, but the attacks look awkward and don't hit often). With a stance... yet more puppeteering trash.

Sword and Shield: Eleventh Storm comes so close... but can't resist ripping the controls out of your hands and kicking you forwards at the end of the "neutral" combo. Final Harbinger is yet more movement overriding garbage.

 

In conclusion: the majority of stances are terrible. Donkey Kong's ultimate was a good example of this right back when it was changed a couple of months ago.

There are exactly 2 unreservedly good stances (polearm - shimmering blight; dual dagger - sinking talon). Some weapons are good without a stance (machetes, rapiers, nunchucks) but become terrible once you stick one on - this is an interesting trend that I've noticed, that the best way to deal with some of DE's changes is to contrive things so that you never encounter them.

So many of these stances glue you to the floor or rocket you around. I cannot comprehend why you think that ignoring my movement inputs is a good thing.

If I'm pressing on the WASD keys, I'm not making a polite suggestion to the game. The only reasons why my character should not be moving exactly as I command it are either that I've hit a wall or that I'm incapacitated due to enemy action. Since I'm using these weapons on a flat open field, the only logical conclusion is that my melee weapons have now become the enemy. Again.

Edited by DoomFruit
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Here's something easy. Switch Weapon and Switch Gun essentially function the same way now.

Make one Switch to Melee or make sure that melee is included in the rotation for Switch Weapon.

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My 2 cents so far.

- Polearms, Heavy Blades are feeling clunky as hell now, stopping momentun, forced movements etc.

- Redeemer Prime is a Joke now

- My Zaws have now a lower Damage output then their non-zaw-counterparts. I mean W T F is the purpose now of Zaws??? Whats next, Kitguns doing less damage as a Kraken?

If I want to play Devil May Cry an kill Enemies with an stylish Combosystem I will play it and not Warframe so please stop with the forced Combo nonsense. For me Warframe is a Horde Looter, I want to mow down Hordes and Horde and Hordes of Enemies and not a Dark Souls-Like Looter with Sci-Fi Setting. Bring back the rewarding and funny Diablo 2 esque Gameplay-Loop. Pls.

Edited by ValinorAtani
typos

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