(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

[Nalabac]

I use the Redeemer quite a bit, specifically the "High Noon" stance. Minor tweak I would suggest, switch the neutral combo (just E) and the and forward combo (W+E) around. Here's why. If your neutral combo is supposed to be all about staying put and dishing out damage to an enemy right in front of you, and your forward combo is supposed to all about (well, moving forward) maintaining momentum, it feels like they're currently on the wrong inputs.

-The current forward combo is a series of slashes, followed by a single shot, which seems like it would lend itself better to staying in place.

-The current neutral combo is a pair of gunshots back to back, repeated indefinitely. You flip forward as you execute the first, and roll forward as you execute the second. If the intended purpose of the forward combo is to close distance/gain ground, This seems like it would be better suited than the other combo. You gain ground at a pretty good clip between the flip and the roll, and you have the added bonus of both attacks in the combo being gunshots, so you can still hit targets that are a little beyond your reach in the event that you didn't cover quite enough ground with the flip and/or roll.

Long story short, as I  'think' currently understand the system, neutral = stay put, forward = "range". That said, both combos would be better suited on the opposite input of where they currently are.

 

P.S. I know this is the wrong place to ask, but I didn't know where else to do so. And I'm probably the only person in the game who cares, but..... I actually use the mod Parry on a lot of my melee weapons. I find that being able to whip out a counter on command is kinda handy when you're playing a frame that doesn't have any powers that are able to stagger the enemy (Plus, it's fun. Let's not forget the fun).

I still functions as "+96% counter chance"..... specifically when channeling. How is that supposed to work when we can't channel anymore? Shouldn't it's function be rewritten to reflect the current system, like the other channeling mods? It's effectively broken at the moment, and thus useless.....

Edited November 1, 2019 by Nalabac
Clarity

[Cradicias]

The Heavy Slam attack float mechanic doesn't really feel like it has a purpose in most of the fast paced, hectic gameplay. It takes too long to set up and then has very little payoff with the somewhat lackluster aerial attacks.Thinking we might actually be better off using the old, directional aerial attacks at base, and only have the new aerial attacks as part of an interaction button when used on enemies who are floating. That or there needs to be more of a benefit to hitting an enemy floating, maybe gain energy or something?

It's also very disappointing that I can't really set my controls the way I want them right now. I like having my right click be my quick melee and you have it so that I can use my left click for regular melee once the weapon's equipped which is great! But, I can't then have it so that right click is heavy attacks when the weapon's out. It overrides the quick melee. Any way we can fix this?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cradicias

[kapn655321]

I would like to be able to do a heavy ground slam while quick meleeing.

Got used to using the melee for downward movement.

The new aerial quick melee is quite tricky to get reliable ground slams,
so being able to heavy slam any time would be appreciated.

[MorphIlous]

Lets keep it simple.

Great: Full melee mode, simplified combos, blocking changes

Good: Range changes, Heavy attacks (they could be a little faster)

Acceptable: increased base damage (this was unnecessary and serves to trivialize early progression)

Bad: stance balance, late game scaling/combo scaling, combo counter/ heavy attacks, lifting status

Elaboration:

• Stance balance: this was pretty clear from the onset, i tested some stances, more on that later
• late game scaling/combo scaling: the increased base damage does not equalize the loss in damage from the combo multiplier, add in the reduced values on blood rush and similar mods and you simply end up with alot less damage overall - thus making melee not competitive with guns
• combo counter/heavy attacks: stacking combo counter and unloading a heavy attack at 12 stacks does good damage - way more than comboing melee attacks... which kind of makes the whole fluid combo thing redundant. The counter is capped however so to be efficient you're just gonna do this over and over. Combo up - unload, combo up - unload aso. I just did this in a 1h survival arbitration and man it gets old quick.
• lifting status: literally an annoying gimmick, haven't found any use for this apart from kicking enemies into pits (which, granted, is incredibly fun) enemies lying on the ground evade most follow up attacks so it's actually more efficient not to use this.

So I tested the stances that were available to me at this time. Overall I did not test for damage specifically except in some cases

Heavy Blades:

• Cleaving Whirlwind: Great fluidity, great combos, horrible damage (broken bull does roughly 30% of hit damage) the 'tumble' effect of the old broken bull is still there, this seems redundant now
• Tempo Royale: Bad fluidity, very slow, lots of lifting procs

Sparring:

• Grim Fury: Great combos, good fluidity, acceptable damage (forward + block combo is amazing)
• Brutal tide: horrible slow combos with animation locks, no further testing

Polearms:

• Bleeding Willow: Great albeit boring standard combo, block + forward combo is a tad bit too long for my taste but this is still a good stance
• Shimmering blight: pretty much the same, block + forward combo is shorter but has a lifting proc so...

Nikanas:

• Deceicive Judgement: Great combos, great fluidity
• Tranquil Cleave: Slow combos, long reset times, forward combo holds you in place so yeah...
• Blind Justice: Very Unique combos with great fluidity, holds you in place with some moves though.

Staff:

• Clashing Forest: great combos with lots of lifting procs so you miss all your hits after the first...
• flailing branch: useless standstill combo, great forward combo, lots of lifting procs

Swords:

• Swooping Falcon: Great combos, great fluidity, great stance
• Iron Phoenix: Good combos, block + forward combo has a slam that lifts and holds you in place, still a good stance

Glaives:

• Astral Twilight: Great Combos but all are too long, most have a 360° throw at the end that holds you in place and takes forever, block + standstill combo appears useless maybe replace with the 360° throws?

[Genitive]

After playing some more I have more comments.

1. Melee is currently a knockdown town. Please consider adding resistance to knockdowns when attacking, at the moment it saps the fun out of melee al lot.

2. Charge attacks seem useless. They don't have that much range, are easy to miss due to charge times and enemies moving, and are not really worth spending time charging. Being staggered and knocked down when trying to use them doesn't help either. It would be better if they covered a wider area around the character so we can clear enemies around us and don't waste combo counter on hitting empty space.

3. Many gap-closing combos don't cover that much distance, some move your character hardly at all. In some cases it is easier to stop attacking, approach the enemy, and start attacking. Examples are Crimson Dervish and Sovereign Outcast. Some gap closers, like in Astral Twilight, used to cover larger distance before the rework. Maybe it is bugged, but you should take a second look at those combos, because not being able to close gaps defeats the purpose of having gap closers.

4. Some combos should have been merged together. For polearms, Bleeding Willow and Shimmering Blight perform the exact same attack on 3 out of 4 combos. The only difference between them is the forward block combo. Same for scythes, staves, sparring weapons. If a stance doesn't have enough animations to cover all 4 combos, it should have been merged with another one.

[Shifted]

Overall I'm liking the change more than I expected (thanks for keeping Tempo Royale fun), however: 

Some of the RARE stances on some weapons I tested feel inferior to UNCOMMON ones due to a smaller amount of available combos.

That should not be a thing. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Shifted

[Aryustailm]

Staff: it SAYS 2.9m, but not sure any of the moves are using most of it...

Clashing Forest ^+RMB combo occasionally gets stuck in place (not moving forward). A pretty poor set of swings but sometimes when it's not bugging out the 'kick' has impressive knockback good for tossing anything half a room away.

Flailing Branch: Neutral combo reminds me of previous melee with an unmodded reach significantly lower than the weapon lengths and animations would suggest. Seems decent at causing Parazon openings for single targets but definitely not a room-clearer. The forward combos aren't particularly strong either.

 

Gunsen (more fans when?): Only one stance here (and it weakens slam attack from 480 base to 320 for some reason).

Neutral combo is alright, forward combo is *wholly forgettable* (seriously it's just like two base swings although it doesn't slow you down), but the RMB forward combo blends. I'd say stance needs a normal forward combo though, it doesn't feel like there's any moves at all. With Prime Reach on there, the neutral and RMB feel real good if you like oceans of small numbers.

 

Polearms: Shimmering Blight: Neutral and Forward combos seem completely identical? Animation's more or less the same except one of them you're walking. Results also seem awful similar. The RMB forward is alright though.

 

Gunblades: High Noon seems less shooty than before. Neutral and Forward combo should be swapped, but I have to agree with others on the charged shot: one of the valued uses of these weapons is currently entirely counter to the combo system - whereas it used to be an integral part of it.

 

Tonfas: Gemini Cross: The neutral combo's ... I can't decide. It feels awkward movement-wise, but in terms of the hitbox and number of hits I'm loving it. Keep as-is i guess? The neutral RMB combo (why do some weapons have these and others don't?) is more linear, but I'm liking it. Forward normal combo though has 'empty' hits; swings that don't actually do anything which really throws me off.

Sovereign Outcast: There's nothing on this I'm not loving. Beautiful

[MuzzV69]

I hate that I can't use mouse wheel up to equip melee like I have always been able to do. And now that I can't use mouse wheel up to equip my melee, I cannot use the newly (re)added manual block, which actually made me excited about playing. Also, why there isn't even a melee block keybind is beyond me. Anyways, until I can equip melee with mouse wheel up so I can use the manual block feature, it's gonna be a hard pass for me.

[Dapal003]

Please allow us re-bind "quick melee attack" and regular "melee attack". I don't want to keep spamming my melee button when I'm in the melee stance as that means I have to take a finger of the four holy keys, WASD. That way we can (if we want to) not have to sacrifice movement over using our weapons. We were able to do this back before melee 2.5, it was such a nice feature to have.

[r1dfour]

非常に悪い納得できないアップデートだと思う

場合によっては過去最悪の....

恐らくクロスプラットフォームを目指して操作の簡易化を図ったのだと思う。

だがそれによってモーションは切り貼りした欠けたものになり、鈍化した壊れかけの人形を操作しているような状態になった(REDEEMER含め、振りが遅い武器はそれが顕著です)

正直悪夢だと思いたいほど酷い。

stylish Ninjaはどこへいってしまったのか

私はこれが正しい道を歩めるようになるまでrollbackする事を望みます。

現在の近接の状態は良き物として自信を持って出せるものではありません。

あまりにも欠点が多すぎる。

私を楽しませてくれたDEはこのような事を押し通さないと願っています。

[r1dfour]

il y a 7 minutes, KyoumaSan a dit :

いつもできるように、マウスホイールを使用して格闘を装備できないことは嫌いです。そして、マウスホイールを使用して格闘を装備できないようになったため、新しく（再）追加した手動ブロックを使用できなくなり、実際にプレイすることに興奮しました。また、なぜ近接ブロックのキーバインドさえないのかは私を超えています。とにかく、手動ブロック機能を使用できるように、マウスホイールを装備して格闘を装備できるようになるまで、それは私にとって難しいパスになるでしょう。

まったくそのとおりだと思う。

2.0になった時手動ブロックが消え、そして私のいくつかのテクニックも消失しました。

その時点では対応できるものでしたが、今回の変更はテクニックどころか近接を使う選択を外さざるを得ないほど酷いです。

オプションで1.0ブロックと2.0or3.0ブロックを切り替えれるようにしたい(もちろん、スタンスの動きも含めて)

何より最良なのはDEがrollbackを実施し、3.0確かなものへと作り直すことです。

[Andvarja]

7 hours ago, ValinorAtani said:

 

- and god damn give us separate Button which we can assign freely for Finishers, this X instead of a smooth E is so f*** annoying. Yeah I got it, you're team is playing your own game with a controller, but gosh damnit I have a keyboard. Just let me use it and assign the buttons how I want 😞

Oh, don't worry, the binds are pretty awful on controller, too.  X from B on a controller really isn't bad (unlike X from E on a keyboard, you're right, that's really terrible, and breaks flow badly), but heavy attacks are on the Right Stick Button which is several kinds of awful, including being rather bad for the thumbs - the stick buttons are most appropriate for toggles.  I hope they listen to the feedback from both M+K and controller players here.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Andvarja

[KouTokachi]

I dunno if this is the right place or not, but finishers with the Parazon don't heal Inaros like a normal weapon would.  Doesn't this seem a little odd?  It's still a finisher.

[Rizzcone]

New combos are amazing, the combo counter change, and mods changes were unnecessary though, everything is so weak now, some people are sayign that everything is good while its not, praising such bad nerfs is sad.
Many say that Condition Overload should not exist as it was before, but why? Why cant we have strong things in this PvE game, the only place where it really mattered was high lvl endurance runs, and most people that demand nerfs are people that are either too weak, or not have plat to get the items they demand nerfed, very sad stance from the game community. 
 

[Xarnubog]

I mainly use melee and I am really pleased with a lot of the melee changes in this update but there is one mayor downside for me and for a lot of people.

Stances: awesome

New combos: awesome

Stats balancing: Great

 

Combo counter rework: Frustrating and counterproductive.

 

The combo counter system rework have just wiped and destroyed the combo counter based builds. I simply cannot understand why the combo multiplier have no effect on regular hits. Ok, I get it, combo rise and grow a lot faster now, so tweaks would be necesary for not doing 5X damage easily. The combo counter working basically as a resource for the new Heavy Attacks it simply doesnt feel right for several reasons.

 

1) First of all, the heavy attacks are not at all a source of damage that compensate the massive damage lost from making regular strikes not being affected by combo multiplier.

 

2) Second, heavy attacks take a lot of time to charge and in the frenzy of the battle you miss the heavy attack most of the time. They are not viable against a moving target at all.

 

3) Third, the result from rebalance of some mods that are combo counter based feels really underperforming. I get that if you boost base damage of all melee and you rise combo counter stacking of course you have to adjust mods like Blood Rush or Condition Overload, but that adjustment feels like a huge overall nerf of the mods and the builds related to them.

 

4) The overall feeling of melee now for me and a lot of people is that it feels and plays better than before,  but its effectiveness have been greatly nerfed.

This is really a pity, because the feeling of having your builds dont working anymore and the massive damage output downgrade cast a huge shadow over the other amazing melee changes that this update has.

 

I love the new combos and stances, they are great and feel amazing to use. The idea of a manual blocking is awesome and melee feels great, but it have been strongly nerfed regarding the damage output, and this is something really sad and not fair for a system so awesome as melee in this game.

 

Suggestion

My suggestion is to bring back the combo counter multiplier to regular hits (non Heavy Attacks), and at the same time keep the Heavy Attack system. This way melee would still have a reliable and consistent damage source and scaling and the fact that you have to decide wheter you keep your combo up for multiplier or you use a Heavy Attack against a strong enemy would give the players a tactical choice that makes melee deeper and more rich as a system, allowing different ways for using your resources, encouraging variety and adding some strategic depth to it.

 

I think this would be a really elegant solution for making the whole melee in this game better.

 

Thank you for your time and thank you for your work on this amazing game 😄

 

Regards!

 

[Auric]

Eh you know what, I thought better of this post because I haven't tested this one as much.

I will say, on Tempo Royale, the neutral block slam attack is brilliant.  It's exactly the thing I want Blind Justice's new Phase 2 Destined Path dashing slash to be, just a single input on neutral block for the purpose of defense.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Auric
redaction

[S41CO]

It'd be really helpful if heavy attacks were set to hold E as default, my mouse is broke and there's not really any other option

[XzWasPzX]

Heavy attacks feels clunky, break the fluid combat, seems like the new channeling, mostly forgotten and avoided by a majority. 

[feralknights]

I have to open with saying that I do like some of the changes in the Techniques part of this update, but I have a lot of criticisms that fall in line with a lot of things other people have said in this thread; that said I'm going to just gloss over a few things right now:  Gunblades and solo Glaives feel absolutely awful right now; they feel chunky and impossible to use, and heavies being glorified charge attacks (that we can't just use the charge hold for) just removes the smoothness and fluidity of what we had.

Some weapons and some stances, I personally feel like came out all right.  I actually like Blind Justice in this iteration, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.  I like that we can finally lock melee/Sword Alone it again, but y'all still need to lock Valkyr's Hysteria out of using guns completely.  Maybe in some way this whole thing will come up with a net positive scenario where we can get a hybrid of what we had and what you wanted to bring us and smooth this out into something that feels a lot better than it does.

Honestly, I'm glad that pistol+glaive came out of this pretty much untouched, it is IMO one of the most versatile and flexible combat styles in the game.  I'm also not an avid gunblade user, but I have to agree:  They don't feel good right now, at all.  The animations look smooth but the in-use feel of them is chunky and choppy.  Shield throws for weapons like Sigma and Cobra are undocumented, but I spotted a stray comment you can activate them mid-air by back+melee, which ... if this were a game that had lock-on combat I'd be okay with, but we don't have that.  It zeroes out your momentum and makes it hard to follow it up with a lunge or a bullet dive, and removes the smooth, sleek, streamlined flow it had.

I appreciate that the changes are forcing me out of my comfort zone to try new stances or revisit old ones, and there's some I want to go for, but ones like Tempo Royale suffered greatly with the new system.  Instead of a fluid, graceful, momentum-based alternative to the power strikes of other Heavy Blade stances, it just feels like Yet Another Heavy Blade Stance with you needing to RMB or detonate stacks to get some of the old feel back in the style.  Surely there's some way to bring this back to the big swooping anime-to-wuxia-style it used to be?

I actually kind of like the Final Harbinger rework, too, but the RMB combos are in entirely the wrong order:  The shield throw (2) should be the opener, followed by the corkscrew attack (1), and ending with the flourish:  The end result, you stun, lunge in, and then end with a sweeping, smoothly-animated flourish.  To be honest, my biggest complaint for a long time with that attack chain  was the dive took you way too far and could've stood to have it's lunge distance cut in half.

Overall I had high hopes but realistically expected some jank in the changes.  Unfortunately there is a lot of work that needs to be done here and I hope this does not get rushed to cert for consoles before it can properly be sussed out.  (Also, allow heavy attacks to be detonated like charge attacks of olde and I'll probably be a little more happy and the game will regain some of it's fluidity.  My mouse 3 button has been broken for ages and I had to remap the button for my kb -- which on Warframe means messing with some really tight real estate and having to do some finger gymnastics.)

[Phillibe]

Ran Infested Survival arbitration to test melee effectiveness at high levels, and was actually quite surprised that it didn't actually cause too many problems- the keepey uppey effect now included seems to compensate for the loss of raw damage when using a heavy blade, and there really wasn't the precipitous drop in combat power I was expecting (although, make no mistake, there was still a drop, I had to extract at 40 minutes rather than the 50 minutes I used to). 

I feel that the new system is geared mostly towards Sanctuary Onslaught style gameplay- fast combo buildup and heavy attacks to maintain a brutal level of killing in short bursts, but in the process long term missions got shafted. 

My suggestion would be:

a) instead of heavy attacks emptying the combo counter, take a chunk, like 60. That way you can't just spam them, but at the same time there is maybe a chance you might ever use them in long term stuff (i.e. emergency)

b) add value to heavy melee attacks- instead of just being the old charge attack, make them doing something useful. My thoughts were- For heavy weapons and polearms, some sort of area clearing attack, combining with a stronger keepey uppey effect to grant some berating space to a beleaguered player; For shield weapons, some sort of fury attack where the player madly slashes all around them, with boosted damage and crit chance, to give an incentive for using the shield to encourage enemies to group up; For swords etc, an attack that allows the player to hack their way out of a sticky situation, like the shield fury attack but in one direction and including lots of movement; for daggers, an auto finisher attack. All of these would actually give the heavy attacks a use and would lead to actual diversity between melee weapon classes

c) some sort of tiered combo system. After a fixed size of combo, the combo counter would reset to zero and the weapon would gain a damage buff for as long as the combo remained higher than the threshold. From my experience, I feel that doubling the base damage every 1000 hits with the new system would probably work, but I am using my combo counter numbers from before the update, so I am unsure how that would work now. 

 

As it is, daggers as a weapon class are basically totally useless, range is crazy useful thanks to the added inherent staggering effect, and killing power is just inferior to what it used to be on a long term basis. While it does encourage mixing up play styles more, I feel uncomfortable about attempting to solo high end content that I was confident in before.

[XzWasPzX]

Oh, and Life Strike attached to the clunky heavy attack sill simply die, not worthy to use a weapon slot for this kind of attack even if regenerate health is necessary cause there are other ways as for example the arcanes. I would suggest to dis attach them to the heavy attacks. 

[DimkaTsv]

23 часа назад, VoadorHolandes сказал:

Tested it up a bit. As far as Blood Rush builds go, the nerf is colossal - does the multiplier works only for base chance?

 

All with bold text is summary for devs

It isn't Blood Rush what was nerfed
But no more base damage multiplier from combo counter for quick Melee
All crit based Dual weapons (because they have really low base attack) are became almost trash (including my previously almost perfect built Dark-split sword)
I mean, why there was no way to keep things as they were while implement heavy strike
Not to say we have combo counter hard capped at x12 -220 hits

Let's not forget, that for using that heavy strike you need to make these 220 hits to achieve x12 counter, and you still lose ALL of it if you have not specific heavy strike build, so there is 3 MAJOR problem with current melee damage system

1. Crit rate builds (Blood rush) and status builds BOTH now nerfed almost into oblivion. Why it is so? 

Because they all were reliant on combo counter to increase their base damage!!! multiplied on crit rate increase or status chance increase.

Without base damage (with was mostly x3-x3.5 in general situations) crit rate build cannot do enough damage output to break through armor

Without base damage status build can not increase their status effect damage (slash and now burn is pretty nice i guess, so there is one benefit, little tho)

And even with base damage stat increase, some weapons got MUCH less than they lost... Like my personal favorite (actually until now, i guess), Dual stance Dark-split sword

It had 65 base damage (which was nice enough for crit based dual swords), and it wasn't that hard to get 1kk damage with them, just because of combination of combo counter, maiming strike (Riven built-in) and Blood rush, which all was multiply on each other

Now i lost 2 parts of that combo. Not one, but 2!!! I am ok with Blood Rush change, it wasn't sufficient...BUT

Base damage of Dark-Split Sword (Dual) became 65 ---> 118 what is less than 2 times more... Isn't that looks like joke towards me?

Why EVEN Zaws, which were more meta, are got all AT LEAST 3x increase of base damage?! 

Now next part, is Maiming strike... Honestly, i cann't even understand how it works now... Combination of Riven and Maiming stike gives me 278% of crit chance while gliding(? not english, sry if word is wrong), and EVEN WITH 44% crit rate on weapon (25% *1.88) i see almost no ORANGE crits, not to say about red!!! I mean seriously? previously such combination would had given me around +170% BASE crit rate which was multiplied by Blood rage and it was insane crit rate number OFC (over 1300%), but NVM about Blood Rush... I actually would had been more than happy to see even flat bonus to flat +170 crit rate, which would have been already good enough

2. There is no way to use both types of build same time (swift attack and heavy attack ones)

And that is NO JOKE. Swift attack lost A LOT of damage potential, and cannot make use of heavy attack at all (because combo counter resets to 0 without specific mods)

And at same time if you make build for heavy attack, that means you will deal almost no damage until you stack some combo counter to spend... 

You just have not enough mods slots to even try to make efficient combination of builds

3. Finishers

That one word shall actually tell all... Damage output at least still nice enough, BUT!!!

Now sleep is useless as you cannot use finisher to kill sleeping enemy (with dual swords at least), so stagger and knockdowns are only ways to make finisher work

AND!!!

New "slam attack" broke it all... I am ok with Lifted status on charged slam! Really!

But not when ANY in combo slam effect deals that status. it is obstructing, as you cannot finish lifted enemy. And it is hard to knockdown enemies with regular slam (really low knockdown radius even with range increase) and guaranteed finish them (because warframe almost always starts combo, and if there is slam effect, then enemy gets lifted).

And i am not saying that this status is actually broken way to control single target enemy (unless it is controllable). Just attack speed with correct stance and enemy will be lifted FOREVER

PLEASE RETURN FINISHERS TO US!!!! WITHOUT THEM IT BECAME REALLY OBSTRUCTING TO CLEAR STEALTH WITH SLEEP AND FINISH... OR Dagger + finish OS combo

 

 

And btw
IS there really was no way to make combo counter work like:

Swift attack/Heavy attack
x1.5/x2
x2/x4
x2.5/x6
x3/x8 (here was previous 250? count combo)
x3.5/x10
x4/12

(there was almost no realistic situation with combo counter more than 4-4.5 actually)

And we ALL would have been happy

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by DimkaTsv

[TinFoilMkIV]

The aerial combos, while situational, are pretty fun to use so far. However they have highlighted an issue for me that had been easy enough to overlook previously. The required angle to trigger a slam attack rather than an air attack is incredibly shallow. Previously this was very rarely an issue as the air attacks had little reason to be used outside targets that were fairly high up. Now with the lift mechanic, it's a lot more common to have a chance to swing at low altitude targets.

I recognize shallow dive angles are very useful for slam attacks, and I wouldn't want to take those away. What I propose is that slam attacks are disabled while gliding. Or have the minimum downward angle required to trigger one greatly increased. Only during a glide, so that the current slam angles aren't removed. This would give players more control and flexibility with aerial melee combat.

 

The other long standing issue I've had with melee, that I initially thought was being addressed but wasn't, is poor visual indication of actual melee range. Currently the only indication of things outside a weapons trail range getting hit, is a small particle hit effects. It doesn't look or feel good to me. I really dislike seeing a clear blade swing effect, and seeing something 5 times that distance away just keel over and die. I would really really like to have the base weapon trail extend to the actual range, or at least the extra particle effects that are at the edge of the trail be extended out to the actual edge of the attacks range. Many shorter weapons already have their trails extend very noticeably beyond the weapon itself. So please this to be accurate with the actual hit range.

This problem is worse on some weapons as certain animations have really funky trails that make it incredibly hard to determine where the actual attack is hitting. This seems to mostly occur in heavy attacks that seem to fall back on old channeling effects and the trail ends up following the handle glow point rather than the blade. The two examples I can remember right now are nikana heavy attacks, and dual dagger heavy attacks.

Edited November 1, 2019 by TinFoilMkIV
clarfication and fixing wording.

[bl1te]

Please, fix Cleaving Whirlwind stance's W button + E button attack. Those double spins, after performing 5 of which your warframe staggers.

You know, the most used move is actually moving forward (W) and hitting melee (E). So, in tough combat, when you just want to smash things surrounding you quickly and can't think for too long about what attack to perform (so you just move (W) and hit (E)), thus unintended, spamming W + E might wreck you.

I'm not saying "remove stagger effect". I understand it is intended to prevent people using this attack 100% of the time, because it is actually "spin2win". I'm asking you for changing the combo itself.

Edited November 1, 2019 by bl1te

[Maganar]

26 minutes ago, DimkaTsv said:

 

3. Finishers

That one word shall actually tell all... Damage output at least still nice enough, BUT!!!

Now sleep is useless as you cannot use finisher to kill sleeping enemy (with dual swords at least), so stagger and knockdowns are only ways to make finisher work

AND!!!

New "slam attack" broke it all... I am ok with Lifted status on charged slam! Really!

But not when ANY in combo slam effect deals that status. it is obstructing, as you cannot finish lifted enemy. And it is hard to knockdown enemies with regular slam and guaranteed finish them (because warframe almost always starts combo, and if there is slam effect, then enemy gets lifted).

And i am not saying that this status is actually broken way to control single target enemy (unless it is controllable). Just attack speed with correct stance and enemy will be lifted FOREVER

PLEASE RETURN FINISHERS TO US!!!! WITHOUT THEM IT BECAME REALLY OBSTRUCTING TO CLEAR STEALTH WITH SLEEP AND FINISH... OR Dagger + finish OS combo

 

 

It took me two whole days of testing to figure out how, for the love of all things good and true, one is supposed to do finishers anymore.  To do a Finisher, we are now expected to hit the Use key when the conditions are met (sleeping, blinded, or staggered).

This is really, really, REALLY bad - by my far my least favorite part of the update despite how much I already hated the change to Glaive throws and Gunblade firing now working from Heavy Attack.  We now need to DELIBERATELY stop using melee attacks and press a different key on our keyboard entirely to do......... a melee finisher.  Does this seem paradoxical to no one else?  We have to stop meleeing to kill something with a melee?

The flow of finisher-opening warframes like Valkyr and Gara is completely lost with X to finish system (not talking about Parazon finishers, but ordinary melee).  It's also just plain unwieldy on everything else that uses finisher-creating cc like Sleep, Blind, or Blast-staggers.  I don't think DE realizes that it's not just as simple as "use the melee-opening effect and then hit finisher."  A lot of enemies cheese their way through ignoring your first (or second, or third) casts of staggering crowd control by using scripted animations that make them crowd-control immune.  And which enemies do this?  Primarily Heavy Gunners with their fist slam and Arson Eximus units with their heat wave.  You know which enemies are the VERY ONES you'd want to use a finisher on to kill more effectively?  Yeah, the tough nuts to crack like Heavy Gunners and Eximus units.  Under the old system, if they cheesed you by making themselves temporarily cc-immune with that long animation, your attempt to perform the finisher would result in at least doing melee attacks to whittle them down.  In the new system, failing to open an enemy to a finisher results in you standing stupidly in front of them as they prepare to wind up their guns and riddle you with holes.

Likewise, it's going to be much harder for new players to learn what abilities open enemies to finishers when they have to KNOW IN ADVANCE the conditions that open an enemy to finishing to even THINK to use the finisher key, since it's a separate key from melee attacks.

What baffles me most of all is that people were asking for the option to rebind finishers to a different key from ordinary melee attacks so as not to be interrupted while playing spin-to-win slide-crit whips.  DE finally acknowledges that meta is unhealthy for gameplay and reworks melee to discourage it...  then implements as part of that same update a gameplay change that NO ONE WANTED except the slide-crit abusers?  Seriously?

Return ordinary melee weapon finishers to E by default (melee key), not X by default (use key) as it has been changed to.  This detriments everyone now that the slide-crit meta is gone.  The only possible argument for finishers to be on that key was from slide-crit abuse.  At the bare minimum, let us bind Use and Melee to the same key so we can "opt-in" at our own discretion to doing finishers with melee key.  Currently, if I try to bind the alternative key for Use to the same as the primary key for melee, the game unbinds the melee key entirely, rendering me unable to melee at all.

EDIT: I also hate Lifted status personally, because of the reasons you've stated.  It is counter-productive to killing enemies and I can't comprehend why DE thought it was a good idea when they already had to scrap the entirely of IPS 2.0 (which would have been Damage 3.0) just because of how negatively the feedback came to them about the plans for Impact procs which would *ragdoll* enemies rather than merely staggering - another counter-productive crowd control that makes it HARDER to line up headshots and kill just as Lifted pulls enemies into the sky where you can't melee them.  It's the same mistake again, yet here we are.

That said, I don't expect that change to be removed.  Lifted status seems like DE's big selling point of "rule of cool" in the new update, so I don't see them backing out on it.  Thus I'm picking my battles.  I would happily settle for Glaive throws reverted to held melee instead of heavy attack, and finishers back to the ordinary melee key - or at least the option to bind Use and Melee to the same key on our own to enable that functionality without DE having to change ANYTHING on their end other than removing a restriction in the Customize Keybindings menu.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Maganar