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(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback

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43 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Ok i've been defending your little melee update on the forums now...but now i just hear that you nerfed ZENISTAR and gunblades?

 

CURSE YOU DE, CURSE YOU WITH YOUR MEDDLING WAYS!

Zenistar is even stronger then before as it can get a 120 seconds duration... except this time you have to work for it instead of blindly launching the disk every 45 seconds

Redeemer Prime was a better, silent Tigris Prime with infinite magazine, it had it coming for a long time. 

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Overall I've been fairly pleased with the melee changes, but when it comes to glaive dual-wielding, I'm quite disappointed. One of my favorite weapon setups in the game my Glaive Prime, paired with my Zakti. If I timed the glaive explosion such that it hit right after the zakti's stagger, the damage it would do was extremely powerful. Tricky to pull off and time corretly, but very rewarding when you do. One of my more reliable combos for taking down heavy higher-level targets.

Now, that same combo does so much less damage that it doesn't even feel useful. Against my standard testing lv 120 heavy gunners, they often completely shrug it off. On rare occasions a perfectly timed attack will take an noticable chunk of their health off, but it's extremely inconsistent, and still far lower than it used to be. Before the change, I could usually kill them outright with a correctly timed attack. I've played around with my build a bit to try and get it back into shape, but I can't get the damage to get anywhere near as high, or even high enough to feel remotely worth the effort.

Not entirely sure which change specifically lowered the dual-wielded glaive damage so substantially, but it's hugely disappointing. Please take a look at the changes with respect to dual-wielded glaive throws (and explosions). I want my tricky, but fun combo back.

 

EDIT: Adding corrupt charge to my build has resolved the issue. Didn't realize the dual-wielding charge attack was considered a heavy attack, and thus super wimpy without combo. The 2X minimum of corrupt charge put the damage back to where I'd expect it to be.
 

Edited by Frenotx
Resolved with further testing.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Ok i've been defending your little melee update on the forums now...but now i just hear that you nerfed ZENISTAR and gunblades?

 

CURSE YOU DE, CURSE YOU WITH YOUR MEDDLING WAYS!

tenor.gif

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5 hours ago, Frenotx said:

Overall I've been fairly pleased with the melee changes, but when it comes to glaive dual-wielding, I'm quite disappointed. One of my favorite weapon setups in the game my Glaive Prime, paired with my Zakti. If I timed the glaive explosion such that it hit right after the zakti's stagger, the damage it would do was extremely powerful. Tricky to pull off and time corretly, but very rewarding when you do. One of my more reliable combos for taking down heavy higher-level targets.

Now, that same combo does so much less damage that it doesn't even feel useful. Against my standard testing lv 120 heavy gunners, they often completely shrug it off. On rare occasions a perfectly timed attack will take an noticable chunk of their health off, but it's extremely inconsistent, and still far lower than it used to be. Before the change, I could usually kill them outright with a correctly timed attack. I've played around with my build a bit to try and get it back into shape, but I can't get the damage to get anywhere near as high, or even high enough to feel remotely worth the effort.

Not entirely sure which change specifically lowered the dual-wielded glaive damage so substantially, but it's hugely disappointing. Please take a look at the changes with respect to dual-wielded glaive throws (and explosions). I want my tricky, but fun combo back. 😞

Most likely what you’re seeing now is the nerf to Condition Overload not being it’s own damage multiplier algorithm but being additive to the likes of Pressure Point, Primed Pressure Point, and Sacrificial Pressure. 

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On 2019-11-06 at 9:22 PM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Most likely what you’re seeing now is the nerf to Condition Overload not being it’s own damage multiplier algorithm but being additive to the likes of Pressure Point, Primed Pressure Point, and Sacrificial Pressure. 

I imagine that's a part of it, but the damage swing seems way too wide for it to be just that. I expected some damage reduction, but between the base damage increase and the % increase on condition overload, I didn't expect to go all the way from devastating with one, maaaybe two well-timed glaive explosions, to the same enemies totally shrugging off my damage.

 

EDIT: Adding corrupt charge to my build has resolved the issue. Didn't realize the dual-wielding charge attack was considered a heavy attack, and thus super wimpy without combo. The 2X minimum of corrupt charge put the damage back to where I'd expect it to be.

Edited by Frenotx

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These changes look to me like they make sense in the context of an enemy scaling rework.
I absolutely welcome this.

We don't need possibilities of millions of damage, if the enemies don't ever require it of us.

Until that happens, the current changes to the darlings like CO stunt top end..
So... Top end must be changing.
Hold on to your butts, folks. 😃
This has potential.

Edited by kapn655321

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Killing Blow -  more speed and damage for heavy attacks please because heavy attacks feel slow and weak.

Amalgam Organ Shatter - more speed for heavy attacks please because heavy attacks feel slow and weak.

Corrupt Charge -  30 initial combo seems not worth the mod slot. This mod needs a huge buff

 

 

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I've had time to play around with the new melee system and coalesce my impressions.

Overall, it's far stronger up to level 100 I'd say. Swapping is fluid and both guns and melee are usable in conjunction. I believe, to a great extend, this was the intention and if so it was achieved. If anything, melee feels comparatively too strong. Found myself doing a murmur farm with a partially levelled, subpar sword build (for Inaros' elemental sandstorm... which was badly nerfed some time ago and went unnoticed since no one uses it) and asking myself "why even bother with my fully formaed Vaykor Hek?". Why bother aiming carefully, one at a time, landing those headshots, when I can just mash E on this subpar and incomplete build and clear the room?

The change to Condition Overload I don't mind so much since it's one less mandatory mod, though status weapons are very weak in comparison to crit weapons.

The biggest difference, in my opinion, is how the base damage increase adversely affects combo stacking. Before, reaching 2X was fast because, with less damage and no crit, you'd wail on an enemy quite a bit until damage ramped up. Now, you need more enemies as everything dies faster. That, together with the decrease scaling of Blood Rush makes the combo counter much more valuable. Heavy Attacks are whatever, to me. The base damage increase, however, also makes it unnecessary on good weapons. You can get away with a crit main status hybrid build that doesn't utilize the combo at all (up to a certain level).

One positive here is that there is a much greater discrepancy and hierarchy among melee weapons. Before, not so much. Base crit and status are more important.

Overall, I don't hate and I don't love it. It is nice to be able to quick melee efficiently without combo multipliers and the scaling isn't as bad as it'd first appear. There's just fewer weapons that scale well. That said, if you test vs level 165 heavily armored enemies, it'll feel much weaker overall, but take a recently forma'd melee into a Sortie 3 and you'll realize how big of a difference the base damage increase makes.

Edited by ZarakkiZenn
Clarification: Elemental Sandstorm

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On 2019-11-04 at 6:15 PM, vaarnaaarne said:

 

I fully agree that Blood Rush and CO remain problems, just not gigantic problems that they were before. In case of CO further nerfs are needed because of its disruptive effect on Pressure Point, it should have been capped at 3 procs; in case of Blood Rush the fundamental issue is more that True Steel/Punishment are dramatically underpowered (a flat bonus of some value applied after all other mods like Arcane Avenger and Cat's Eye are applied now would actually make them more applicable), making them multiply Blood Rush would still be worse. Or honestly just removed entirely from the game because there is no way to truly balance them. They'll always cause problems because there is no "sweet" spot for them, they'll always be either too weak or too strong. The playerbase should never have been given broken mods to be "creative" with in the first place (and DE really should bring the hammer down already and not let Endless be endless so people can take a hint, scaling is not meant to be infinite), and rivens only made things worse.

Also they do not promote build diversity, and never did, just look at the whips and polearms galore that used to be the case; right now I feel there's actual satisfaction to using every weapon class because of the reworked combo inputs and weapon ranges, those are what promotes actual weapon variety by giving fundamentals that are needed in every case (I avoided Meme Strike and meta out of principle, the problem with using most weapons before was the lack of basic QoL performance like range and functional combos). Clear purpose and intent is needed, and restraint, not having more and more powerful mods. Reach and Primed Reach are in a way a microcosm of how things should be: Not having an overabundence of mods for a weapon that then run out of control because of poor (or alternatively profiteering, though DE have been rather benign with Warframe compared to how most companies run their live service games) design or lack of foresight. Having a few mods with specific and controlled effect (this is a fundamental problem of Warframe's mod system, the effects are MASSIVE and therefore inherently a nightmare to balance, and then some of them can feed into others).

The whole MR fodder thing basically runs counter to trying to make every weapon viable, ideally we should want that every weapon type is able to compete and then demand more type skins; but that's just a sidenote really.

EDIT: Actually, something just game to me in a lightbulb moment. Now, a big problem with Blood Rush and CO is that they can be combined together (and previously all could be combined with Meme Strike). So what if a first step to getting some sort of "go for either status or crit for maximum damage" could be... Making Blood Rush and CO mutually exclusive. If only one can be equipped, then these mods COULD be balanced in some fashion. Sure, everyone would use ONE of them, but each of them could be controlled and limited properly (another detail about CO I feel is that it would be better if there was a limit to the number of procs it benefits from because it would also alow for greater freedom instead of funneling users to having a maximum number of procs in minimum time as the real option; Blood Rush does have a quality to it that it's much more freely applied since all it needs is slapping things enough).

Hm...about True Steel it is a common mod so it is fair that it is overshadowed by Blood Rush. I know some staple mods are common or uncommon, but shouldn't there be a common, uncommon and rare versions of these mods? Maybe it would solve the problem. But to be honest, BloodRush and CO are uncommon/rare mods with stats of a primed mod, and this is not good.

Another solution would be to make True Steel and Pressure Point/Primed Pressure Point work like bane mods, therefore adding a huge amount of damage/crit chance on your first hit, while if you use Blood Rush and CO you have to scale it to surpass these mods. Or maybe both solution, perhaps?

Here's an example.

20% base crit chance.

rare True Steel: +80% flat crit chance.

New crit chance = 100% crit chance

With BloodRush (7x combo) = 92% crit chance.

Pressure Point: +120% final damage.

Primed Pressure Point: +165% final damage.

On the other hand, this might cause the Scoliac problem again, since +5% crit chance weapons would be able to reach high crit chance, and this would reduce build variety. On another hand, considering how easy it is to proc status even with crit weapons due to stances, maybe this would make both even. But I don't think that EVERY weapon should have high crit and status after mods, even though this would increase the options you have for higher level content, after all, each weapon should be at least a bit unique, and this would make base stats quite irrelevant.

But maybe Primed Pressure Point working like a bane mod would make it definitively a better choice than Condition Overload, at least to a good degree.

And as for True Steel, maybe uncommon and rare versions would solve the problem. I would make uncommon +120% and rare +165%, the later would turn 30% crit chance into 79% crit chance.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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Here is some positive feedback for the "nerfs" to many previously meta mods. I'm all about build diversity, having less mandatory mods.

Condition Overload - Stacking with Pressure Point instead of multiplying makes Pressure Point less of a mandatory mod which helps build diversity. Stacking both mods is less desirable since the extra Pressure Point is equivalent to 1 more status effect.

Reach/Primed Reach/Spring-Loaded Blade - The additive range is a much better fit for all weapon types (although with the range buff for all weapons, I use this mod less). Spring-Loaded Blade is so much more useful now.

Blood Rush - High enough to actually crit for somewhat low crit weapons at max combo, but low enough to not be a mandatory mod, especially if you can't build the combo high enough.

Maiming Strike - Less broken, but still tied to slide attacks which is too niche now that wide sweeping attacks are more accessible with the technique changes.

 

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Hello there! I'm sure others have brought this up but I thought I would too:

On any status/hybrid build condition overload is better than primed pressure point as you will proc 2 statuses very quickly and at that point condi is providing a better base damage increase than primed pressure point. Since base damage increases have diminishing returns (due to them being additive) that means on any build that isn't strictly crit there's no use for primed pressure point which seems a shame considering it's a primed mod and should have more widespread use than a randomly dropped mod like condi. Perhaps the damage calculation for condition overload should be changed to make it worth using in tandem with primed pressure point, such as making it multiplicative but nerfing the percenrage value?

Also true steel, sacrificial steel and critical chance on rivens are pretty bad on melee now since blood rush no longer applies multiplicatively with them. Blood rush provides so much more critical chance which is very easy to get since combo counter builds much quicker. The value on other static critical chance mods is just too low in comparison. Blood rush should be better at high combo counter values but other crit chance increases should be buffed to be worth using if you want to make a slightly weaker build that doesn't need to scale with combo counter. Perhaps make true steel about 150% crit chance so it's nearly equal to 3 stacks of blood rush and buff other crit chance increases in part?

 

I hope this feedback helps 🙂

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Just wanted to leave here that I don't like the change to BR and CO not interacting with other mods at all. Now, both mods invalidate the usage of any other source of crit chance (BR) and (with the right set up/weapon) damage mods (CO).

BR on it's own outperforms any other CC mod at 2x combo. Same with CO, which outperforms maxed out primed preasure point at 2 status on target.

If that change was supposed to create more variaty in weapon choices it's even more questionable because you now can't help weapons with sub par crit with other souces of crit chance to work the same as weapons with beter crit stats, invalidating the "bad" weapons.

I'm not asking to revert the change to these mods completely as I support limited scaling to our damage (and enemy EHP) but to reconsider the functionality and (lack of) interaction with the current iteration of these mods.

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il y a 8 minutes, (PS4)de_sch0sch a dit :

Same with CO, which outperforms maxed out primed preasure point at 2 status on target.

Meaning more 3 hits with a 100% status weapon, it doesn't happen often even in sorties. And that's not counting the average damage of the hits. Pressure point isn't useless at all.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Arkandae:

Meaning more 3 hits with a 100% status weapon, it doesn't happen often even in sorties. And that's not counting the average damage of the hits. Pressure point isn't useless at all.

Or 1-2 shots with a status primer secondary. If you were going for a CO build you usually ware working with 3+ status on target. How it currently stands PPP loses effectiveness with each status on target, contributing ~31% to of the total damage bonus at 3 status on target(165+3x120=525 165/525 =~,3142 -> ~31%) at which point any other elemental mod is a better choice.

It's basically the same now with CO what happend with chroma with his last rework. You want to use Chroma or CO ditch base damage mods and rivens. You want to use both? Well you can with heavily diminishing returns and still definately ditching PPP and damage rivens for better results.

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About Tatsu:angry:

It requires a greater degree of displacement, and now it doesn't fit this cool look at all. I think its attack and attack is one of the most re-made and polished weapons in all weapons. I fantasize that it is being waved. It is a very elegant and deadly weapon, but it is often difficult to smoothly advance in the place where I am stuck. I really like this knife and hope that the relevant personnel can see my prayer and modify this weapon. . .:heart:

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Dont know where to really post but this is overall feedback to how weapons operate now (both stat wise and some combo feedback).

1. Most pure critical weapons are pretty worthless now (weapons like paracesis, plague Kripath, basically any hybrid crit+status still work fine but need more wind up).
2. Venka prime is still pretty nice as crit only weapon (mostly because of its attack speed+berserk).
3. Pure status+CO is stronger than crit+blood rush weapons. (Lesion, War, Tatsu, etc.)
4. Gunblades are worthless, shots dont give combo and deal very little damage, also to me it looked like they dont really scale with combo(tested with redeemer prime).
5. Dark split-sword, heavy blade mode is pretty useless, dual swords can be used.
6. Mios as a CO weapon is usable.
7. Skiajati is pretty good now, can be compared to nikana prime
8. Dual Keres have very long wind up time, but can be used.
9.  Silva & Aegis augment mod doesnt really work (the one that gives bonus damage to nexdt heavy attack on block).
10. Cleaving Whirlwind forward attack deals a lot less damage for some reason.
11. Orvius is pretty decent but the suspend throw is not that great.
12. Wise razor Tactical forward combo is the best combo in that stance.
All of the testing was done on lvl 125 corrupted bombards (and before people say that it doesnt count because we dont have enemies with that high of a level in normal gameplay just look at level 5 kuva lich missions), without using rivens.

Edited by Eyn_Sof

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Il y a 11 heures, (PS4)de_sch0sch a dit :

Or 1-2 shots with a status primer secondary. If you were going for a CO build you usually ware working with 3+ status on target.

I think you didn't understand my point. You don't need to hit ennemies that much to kill them, with some exceptions. Meaning you either you don't have the time to put status with your melee, or it's a waste of time to shoot at them with your status primary/secondary then hit them with your melee. Just hit them once with a good primary/secondary, and they're dead. Most of the time pressure point is better than CO. I'll go even further and say that most of the time CO isn't even usefull since you can one shot nearly everything. CO is usefull when putting status isn't a waste of time, and as I said that doesn't happen often (long endless, disruption,...).

Edited by Arkandae
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Melee are same and no choice now.
Orthos had long range so we gave it a Range mod and dagger are not before .what would Orthos different from dagger now?
If stance still only give a range、hit or damage % that player will make the same decision ,and you will see the catchmoon issue again.

My suggest is make some stance has counter percent increase bounds or the heavy attack attack data apply at stance final hit like dagger stealth stance before or give finisher stance back ,etc

I'm keen on melee stance before but I feel tired about new stance now , hope it not only for power but function. 

Edited by zendian
modification for easily reed

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One more thing I didn't mention on my last post here.
Issue: Blood Rush is meant for crit weapons, yes? Condition Overload is meant for status weapons, yes?
So Wukong and Excalibur can build theirs for status, since you can equip Condition Overload on them. However you can't build an exalted weapon that has a high crit chance and low status chance with Blood Rush since you can't equip it on them, and even if you could, the combo counter would just go away when you have to put your exalted weapon away.
Exalted weapons had no stat change in this update if I'm not mistaken.
So.. what about Valkyr's talons, and Baruuk's Desert Winds which are mostly crit weapons? Their stats were unchanged, and they were completely ignored in this update, and they can't really compete with either Iron Staff or Exalted Blade. Are we gonna get some band aid for these weapons or? Like increased status chance, or increased critical chance or/and multiplier, damage or something? Because currently low status high crit exalted weapons can't really even compete with ones which have higher status chance.
Of course this was an issue before this update aswell, but after this update, both Valkyr and Baruuk are especially better off using any non-exalted melee weapons which got increased stats from this update over their exalted ones which were just ignored, and that just feels wrong if you ask me.

(Even Garuda's Talons feel more viable right now. Speaking of which did that get any stat changes? I don't really see it on the stat change list, but I feel like they perform relatively better now than they did before.)

Edited by Harutomata
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Corrupt Charge  -  please change "30 initial combo & - 50% combo duration"   to 

"30 initial combo & 90% dmg reduction during a heavy strike"

 

 

 

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As much as i like that low range melees became "Usable" and whips don't have 11 - 20m of range anymore, whips having the same range as tonfas seems very silly and makes me question of what the purpose of whips is anymore.

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