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[DE]Danielle

(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback

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As someone pointed out on the first page, Condition Overload now stacks ADDITIVELY WITH BASE DAMAGE (i.e. adds on top of Pressure Point rather than multiplying it).

Regarding communication: I have mixed feelings.

  • On one hand: y'all should've told us about this prior to the update. Your wording made it seem as though CO was still going to be multiplicative with other damage boosts, which I'm sure was deliberate.
  • On the other hand: I kinda understand why you didn't tell us about this prior to the update. There would've been an insane amount of backlash considering that nobody had actually tried it out yet.

Regarding ingame balance: Still mixed feelings.

  • On one hand: CO builds are objectively much, much weaker than before. Pre-nerf CO was the only thing that made pure-status builds viable, but those are effectively no longer an option. 
    Assuming you've only got Primed Pressure Point equipped and are hitting a target with 4 procs, your effective damage multiplier has gone from 17.4x (base * PPP * 1.64) to 7.45x (base * (PPP + 1.2*4)). That's a bat-crap crazy loss in damage. And if you're running a build that stacks base damage (e.g. rivens, Spoiled Strike, Chroma, etc), then this loss in damage only becomes even more extreme as CO is increasingly subject to diminishing returns.
    I mean, Chroma mains ought to be on suicide watch right now, yikes. Their melee damage just decreased by about an order of magnitude (again), and their frame doesn't exactly have much utility to make up for it.
    Ironically, crit builds (the meta for melee) are affected by this change the least, since they tend to have less base damage stacked up (i.e. CO can have more of an effect in comparison)!
  • On the other hand: Pure-status builds got completely shat on, but so many weapons have had their base Crit+Status buffed that hybrid builds are easier to make than ever.
    Also, more importantly: Prior to the update, CO made some melee builds so powerful that there wasn't much reason to even think about using a gun. The gap between the two has dramatically decreased (which was obviously the intention of the nerf in the first place), and I mean this in a good way. It actually feels like there's a choice between melee and guns now... Pre-U26 meta builds like hybrid polearms are still powerful, but they no longer hopelessly outclass every ranged weapon.

 

Overall... melee is more balanced now, but this came at the cost of build variety (with pure-Status builds being completely nonviable), and an indirect-but-harsh nerf to Chroma (with CO barely having any effect due to the extreme amounts of base damage).

I think that CO should still be an overall damage multiplier, rather than a base damage boost. Tweak the numbers so that it's still balanced (e.g. "80% final damage per status, stacking up to 6 times" or something). The current formula makes pure-Status builds and Chroma unviable for melee, which is the opposite of the diversity that this update was striving towards.

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The reach changes are so nice, have not done too much but even just with the small amount of play with my Dakra Prime its been really noticeable

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Maming strike is now dead i get that making all weapons crit wasnt good but when you also nerf condition overload to the ground crit IS the only option

My feedback

1. primed reach needs to be +4

2. condition overload scaling fix with the 120% was what i wanted since the change was announced but it should be at the end of the calculation otherwise its useless ( we know hybrid builds are too strong but status weapons are just trash now )

3. maming needs to be 300% plain amd simple 150% is not enough a weapon with 30% base crit will go up by 45% thats half the 90% we had so 300% is where it should be 

4. some combos are still buggy and slow wukong iron staf is worse somehow

5. heavy attacks  so combo was changed for them while i would rather see the old combo back and heavy attacks be a constant thing with scaling combo that might not be the teams vision 

So my fix heavy attacks should not consume ALL of the combo instead use a fixed number 20-30 hits that way it can be used constantly and dont ruin blood rush scaling 

 

Just realised this now bloodrush only scale off base crit chance not moded why the hell would you do that all crit chance rivens are now useless 

6.bloodrush needs to be 75% and scale of modded crit chance 

Most zaw hybrid builds hade 15-25% crit chance thats not enough for red crits even at 12x combo

 

Edited by (PS4)MJ-Cena7
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I agree with increasing smaller weapon range but for bigger weapon range it is a significant nerf.

If possible please consider increasing range for polearms/staves/whips.

Also please put back speed on faster weapons like Hirudo with Grim Fury, even if combos feel more fluid they feel like 1.5-2 times slower than before.

Blood Rush seems to be now much weaker at max combo.

Possible solutions are

1) Increase Blood Rush from 60% to at least 120%

2) Increase combo counter cap from 12 to at least 24

Condition overload - please put it back to original or to your draft (120% but takes only 3 statuses), in current condition Condition Overload is underwhelming.

Also an option to op-out lifted status will be very welcome, it very much slows down progression by letting all enemies drift away.

 

Edited by Zilotz
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So as fan of Zenistar what i can say

1) Where Zenistar Disk stat buff? After nerf condition overload disk should have buff. just +50% damage (50>75) should be good

2)Condition Overload still not work with disk. Okay, maybe buff not what you want to do but fix this pls

3)Rework disk duration - you want to active play but Zenistar can do good damage only without disk, but for this you need to play with disk, but with disk zenistar cant do good damage... Zenistar Damage buff with nerfed Condition Overload not enough to play active in compare with any another heavy blade. And I can attach some my old videos - Before this update i could kill 165 lvl 2-3 times faster than now. This is sad =(

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It feels like blood rush scales with the base crit instead of the overall crit and you should change that. Cause this way there is no benefit for mods like sacrificial steel or +cc riven. 

CO got also a tad too weak.....

Edited by Loec61
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Can you guys please offer a little more context on what your trying to test your weapon against? 

Like, I've seen only a couple of post actually mentioning the enemy level (around 165, 200 in other threads) and they say that most weapons are still fine and the spectrum of weapons that are now viable is insanely higher.

Because if you're talking about "gimme scalability so that I can take on level 300+ enemy heerrrrp" well sorry, but very few people gives a crap about those level, as DE themselves admitted they don't want players to stay in matches that long (plus, there's no incentive, rewards wise).

I mean, I've seen a post of someone saying that now for a group of level 165 heavy armored grineer it takes 1 or 2 seconds more.

1 or 2 seconds more. 

While I appreciate the dedication, I can't help but asking myself... Really?

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17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Disc Duration is now a base of 10 seconds and is increased by the Combo Multiplier

this change to the zenistar pretty much defeats its entire purpose, having to hit enemies to make the disc last longer than a couple of seconds makes it pretty much impossible for squishy frames to use it after some time in a long survival run.

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  1. The Zenistar disc throw change is terrible, it works counter to the purpose of the melee overhaul by enforcing 'mindless melee spam' simply to attain a useful disk duration now. I get that you were in a tough spot since it's a 'charged' manoeuvre that now has to drain the combo meter in the process, but please consider simply applying the damage and returning the static duration OR, if you really feel like incentivising combo sinking with the Zenistar, make the duration start at its previous 45 seconds then add some FLAT time per combo tier (5 seconds per tier would even out the duration to the current format at 9x multiplier - cap would be 105 seconds at 12x instead of 120, not a big loss for the QoL of base duration).
  2. strongly disagree with your assessment of applying physical damage to the majority of previously elemental weapons. What kind of double-speak is "making status more reliable by adding physical damage" when you know as well as we do that physical statuses are A) largely unwanted unless Slash and B) Heavily influence the odds of the build's elemental procs actually occurring by being weighted, what, 4 times heavier? This is an unwelcome homogenisation of weapons. We like having pure elemental weapons, in every circumstance that isn't broken enemies having 100% immunity to elemental damage through stacked resistances (like Link Trinity used to be - you missed the sensible change to make back there by isolating it to self-damage transferring through the link instead of capping additive resistances).
  3. A lot of weapons are going to need much better base status or crit to make use of the base-multiplicative Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds mods to reach comfortable functionality.
    The delta between a non-crit and a crit is often the biggest one (going up to orange and red crits simply being 2's powers while going from non-crit to yellow is a factor of modded crit damage) and Blood Rush allowed almost any weapon to achieve reliable crits during combos.
    Weeping Wounds was incredibly niche at best since there was no benefit from going over 100% status - I can honestly say now I think it won't be used in any meaningful build. Even slash-focused builds would rather slot Viral through dual-stats to improve status chance long before considering Weeping Wounds.
Edited by TheLexiConArtist
derp-maths, Hirudo isn't quite so bad after all stats-wise
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Simultenously managed to make CO and BR mandatory and make melee weaker than our primary or secondary weapons. Was this the goal?

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So I've had some time to fiddle around with the new melee system and overall im on the fence with it :O.

The good:

Everything feels and plays fantastic :D 

Stances (for the most part) feel great :D . The fact that every weapon uses the same inputs for each weapon makes everything easier to learn. I also like the idea of every block+forward combo having forward momentum. This makes it easier to actually do what you want to do faster. 

Normalizing weapon ranges is a godsend. This makes every weapon feel like an actual weapon instead of some options feeling like you're bringing a toothpick to a gun fight before the update.

Most of the time you look really stylish with the new stances and especially the heavy/slam attacks and the lifted status :D

The idea of being able to suspend enemies in the air with an aerial slam is great :D Some innate CC is always great.

The bad:

The negatives boil down to mostly one thing: much much lower damage potential.

Don't get me wrong, the base dmg and range increase is going to make most weapons feel much stronger in the short run when breezing through weaker enemies. Against tougher enemies however, it seems like your max damage output has taken a serious hit. From what I can tell, this is due to three reasons/mods in particular.

- Combo multiplier not affecting base weapon damage: Most weapons' base dmg has been (more or less) doubled, meaning your swings are going to be doing as much damage as when you had a 2x multiplier before. Since this dmg does not increase with combo anymore, building combos feels much less rewarding. Before the update the difference between having no combo and a 2x multiplier was like day and night (also because of blood rush, more on that later), now the difference between no combo and 12x combo is barely noticable outside of heavy/slam attacks. Feels disappointig :O

- Reduced scaling on blood rush: Blood rush has seen a drastic hit. The scaling is much much weaker than before. (Example nikana prime with true steel and blood rush would occasionally orange crit on 1.5x combo, now it needs a 6x combo) This causes two problems:  Firstly significantly lower (crit) damage due to not beeing able to orange-/redcrit consistently. Secondly crit based weapons have become far more inconsistent. It feels really annoying to have to build a 5x combo (or more) to make a crit weapon crit (as stupid as im makin it sound right now).

- Reduced scaling on condition overload: Obviously I'm not the first (and probably not the last) to say that the CO nerf is very noticable. I'm usually a bit reluctant to say these kinds of things because I can imaginge how things work when developing games, but I simply don't buy the explanation that the old way CO was calculated was not intended. Even if it wasn't, I feel like CO had been in the game so long that it should have stayed. Again this is a change that will not be too noticable in short low level missions, but against higher level enemies you need every sort of dmg increase you can get.

All in all I can say melee weapons feel great now but perform poorly. I hope this can get tweaked in the future.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from.

You guys NEED to go through all your other formulas and fix them asap. If you wait until it becomes meta for something again you're just going to piss off your players again. I dont want for the faction mods for example to become meta after all of this only for you guys to repeat this statement for a 3rd time in a year or so

Edited by JayJayTheScrub
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DE Stop nerfing all the game or we will plaing D2 or other games....

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I think some of the changes completely missed the mark of what was intended.
Melee combat is the opposite of engaging and the "shinobi" feeling of having a trusty weapon in hand and diving into melee, is replaced by uncertainty and cautious approach. The flow of combat is disrupted and the Tenno do not "flow like fire on the battlefield".

Also, when we want to make something worthy of choice, we encourage players to consider it, instead of forcing them to, by making everything else look weak and unworthy.

Edited by -AnatoL-
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I was testing out some mods and quickening, true punishment and focused defense dont change the stats at all.

 (it seems Im too stupid to upload an image tho, sry)

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With the arrival of Melee Phase 2. I'm personally extremely upset with how they massacred my boy. Zenistar.

As one of the first few weapons available during Daily Tribute, I get that you guys wanted it be in line with something like the Azima.
But considering that it has a constant presence alongside weapons other meta weapons.
I personally feel that it's stats and changes should have been more in line with the MR 10 - 12 section of weapons.

Even for being placed where it is. There are better secondary and primary weapons much more readily available.
Like the secondary weapon Atomos at MR5 and...
Vectis (MR3), Vulkar, Hek, Quanta, Torid (All MR4), Dread, Grakata, Ignis, Kohm, Sybaris (All MR5) and the Soma in MR6.

These weapons are all readily available and super easy to get at low MR's with most being market weapons.
And some are still being used for high level content.

Why is it that one of many weapons that people have interested a lot of time into and a weapon that we have to wait to get. Suddenly unusable.

In conclusion. I just really want Zenistar to be good again. Cause the nerfs to mod interactions with it's disc has it dealing extremely lackluster damage.
And makes it extremely unable in endurance content which used to be it's main niche.

Edited by Spotdodge
#FreeZenistar
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Khora and Atlas' 1st ability got hard nerfs in this update since previously they could benefit from combo multiplier. They can't deal heavy attacks and their damage stats were not increased to compensate. Also affects Gara and Excalibur's 1st but this matters less since those frames don't tend to rely on combo damage off their 1st.

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Please revert Zenistar and just leave it alone...please!

The only reason I use Zenistar is to throw out the disc in strategical ways to help me on missions.
I use Zenistar disc to clear out enemies from under Kuva siphons so I can handle Kuva Guardians by themselves.
I use Zenistar disc to take pressure from directions so I can put more focus in the opposite direction.
I use Zenistar disc to help hold Interception points.
I don't kit Zenistar for its melee capabilities. I don't ever want to swing that weapon as it feels awful to me.
I don't want to have to build combo in order earn more disc time. The melee weapon is just that horrible feeling to me and I just want to use the disc how it was.

Please just put my precious login reward back to the way it was.

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Could you increase the Cap of the combo counter? I don't wont to go above x12, but having some breathing space, by increasing the hit-count above 220, would be nice.

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Q.: Is there a particular reason now for exalted weapons to be unable to use all kind of mods?

It seens to me that, as BR and other stuff have had their backs broken there's no reason for it.

Why has the Exalted Blade not gained anything in stats besides range? It's crit and status chances are worse than most weapons in the game, it's waves still cannot combo. It feels like it has not build variety possible in it. 

 

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WpzwF3Z.jpg

 

plague keewar base damage buff seems way below 3.5 ...

-> zaw nerf ?

Edited by sorcer3r
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31 minutes ago, GrowthProfitGrofit said:

Khora and Atlas' 1st ability got hard nerfs in this update since previously they could benefit from combo multiplier. They can't deal heavy attacks and their damage stats were not increased to compensate. Also affects Gara and Excalibur's 1st but this matters less since those frames don't tend to rely on combo damage off their 1st.

Yeah, I jumped on last night to see how Whipclaw was affected and it's much worse than I feared... I was afraid that DE would overlook how the combo multiplier changes would impact Khora, as she's my favorite frame, and it seems that fear was well-founded...  

Edited by ateo.ars
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7 minutes ago, ateo.ars said:

Yeah, I jumped on last night to see how Whipclaw was affected and it's much worse than I feared... I was afraid that DE would overlook how the combo multiplier changes would impact Khora, as she's my favorite frame, and it seems that fear was well-founded...  

Khora was kind of overpowered before and she's not useless now but yeah I did find myself struggling to kill a level 80 bombard with her so... probably not going to bring her out anymore until she gets fixed.

Atlas was one of the worst frames even before this, now he's sitting down in old-Wukong tier. Which is pretty tragic considering his prime access is going on right now so he's probably not seeing a rework any time soon.

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb VoadorHolandes:

Has anyone else tested weeping wounds yet? To me it doesn't seen to be working at all. Even a high status weapon such as the Ohma won't give a guaranteed proc during a 12x Combo.

Seems like that, I was testing with my Gram Prime, with drifiting contact, which is 44.8% status + WW and all I got was around 50% status from observation. Something is definitely not working correctly with WW.

Generally about this new 3.0 Change, I like that you don't need to grind or buy stupid mods like blood rush, condition overload and maiming strike, because even with them your damage is pathetic now compared with primaries and secondaries. The lack of multiplicative damage multiplication makes them so much worse now. I really liked melee before, because I could get a pretty good build with chroma consistently dealing 6 digit slash procs, which is absolute trash now. And now with CO also being nerved to being additive, I still can't get a decent Chroma build with it, because vex armor is also just additive. With every bonus damage turning additive, chroma passively gets nerfed to the ground.

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