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[DE]Danielle

(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback

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Don't force the players to use underused weapons. Players were using the weapons that were more effective, but pn top of that, the weapons that they had more fun!

Nerfing the range and crits won't make the make more diverse or fun, pleyers don't have problems to break the game and nuke everything you trow at us. we use what makes the game fun to us, from time to time, we try new stuff and would be lovely to get a buff in range to daggers, fists and etc, maybe would shift the meta, maybe not. But now I have no pleasure or fun in playing this game. Could be my personal opinion, but that is my feedback.

- Some mods like flat damage, range, combo duration, crit chance/multiplier and rivens are obsolete (wellp, got disgusted with the riven system from some time, so I don't really care)

- The combos are easier e more fun to toy with, but pointless when melee got nerfed this hard

- I was really excited for this patch and as open and receptive as possible, ready for a new world, but now I belive in no more lies, promisses and I'm taking a break from the game. Hurt, but I leave my opinion because I care, Lived and loved this game.

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21 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Scindo Prime

Mastery Rank increased from 4 to 8

Damage increased from 130 to 250

Range increased from 1 to 2.7

Status Chance increased from 15% to 24%

Critical Chance increased from 20% to 26%

Critical Damage increased from 2x 2.4x

So galatine and gram are on a similar level while poor scindo is still trash 

Can we up the crit to 36% make it a crit heavy blade instead of just mastery fodder ans wasted skins slot

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*Sigh* DE..You need to made changes and do it FAST. You somehow managed to nerf melee across the board and people are angry. And I'm angry because you continue ignorIing Valkyr and her desperete need for rework!!

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10 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

While the range changes for low range melees is good, everything else feels awful.

CO is a complete mess now. No real reason to go for more than 3 status on a weapon. After that point you are just wasting space for a marginal increase. 

Blood rush caps at a 580% crit chance boost (1+(.6*8)). So crit melee weapons basically have 0 scaling. A 20% crit chance weapon would cap at just over 100%. And this is entirely lost in a single slow, clunky, unreliable "heavy attack". 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but all you did in terms of stats was make our first couple of hits stronger, but then completely prohibiting us from ever reaching the damage of a 3x combo multiplier with the old system. This is even after all the damage buffs to the weapons.

All for "heavy attacks"... DE... there is a reason NO ONE was asking about the unincluded heavy attacks 7 months ago when the first changes came out. Heavy attacks are slow, clunky, feel horrible to use, and are unreliable at best. The stat changes do not even come close to justifying the use of a heavy attack.

Can you please actually give us the raw numbers rather than just vague descriptions? Show us EXACTLY how you changed the calculations. Overall it appears and feels like you have heavily nerfed melee as a whole. 

can you elaborate on this blood rush cap? Why is it 580%?

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

can you elaborate on this blood rush cap? Why is it 580%?

The other guy calculated wrong its 820%. It caps out because combo counter atm only goes up to 220 hits for a 12x bonus. (1+(0.6*12))= 8.2

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Is there a reason that Valkyr's Talons haven't had a damage increase?

The notes say that (relevant points in italics):

On 2019-10-18 at 6:58 PM, [DE]Bear said:

8. Weapon Stats and Mastery Limits
With this new change, there is a broad-sweeping review of Melee weapons and how they function with the new system. Expect the following changes to all melee weapons across the board:

  • Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up. 
  • Base Range - Along with damage, range is also being increased to make sure you get the most chop for your buck. While base range is being increased, Range Mods are going to have a different calculation applied to them. This is detailed in Section 9.

10. Exalted Weapons
As expected, all melee-based Exalted Weapons will also receive the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes. For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks), so if you want a preview of the Combo system, you should check out the Monkey King!

 

The Talons did gain a much-needed range increase, which is appreciated, but the damage hasn't changed - despite the notes saying that all melee weapons would have increased damage. While the talons were admittedly powerful beforehand, now that some weapons have received a 3x damage buff and other stat increases, the Talons start to fall quite far behind. Because of their speed, it's quite easy to rack up large combo counters - which pre-patch gave a significant damage boost. Now, with the combo changes, it's a blatant nerf. A 2.5x combo multiplier pre-patch was only 45 hits, which wasn't difficult to get against even only a few enemies. Against sortie level enemies, the combo counter was required if you wanted to keep Eternal War up. Against sortie-level Ambulas, combo counter was required to make it feel like you were doing more than stripping paint with each hit. Even under the argument that it shouldn't be balanced around that level of enemies (although with the new Requiem fissures lv80 enemies are now no longer encountered only in sorties or endurance runs) that wouldn't explain why all the other weapons got buffed to a state where they can shred them like tissue paper. It just feels like the Talons have been left by the wayside. While I don't necessarily think something as large as a 3x damage increase is necessary, leaving it completely unbuffed is, in my opinion, unjustifiable, particularly when even more powerful melees (e.g. Gram Prime) still got buffed.

 

I'm sure that other Exalted melees need another look at. Garuda's claws managed to get a damage increase, but none of the others?

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10 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

The other guy calculated wrong its 820%. It caps out because combo counter atm only goes up to 220 hits for a 12x bonus. (1+(0.6*12))= 8.2

Nope. Cap combo multiplier is 8x. Unless the combo counter is actually still stacking and I'm only seeing a max of 220 and it wouldn't update until you hit more.

So 1+(.6*8) = 5.8.

 

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5 minutes ago, m0b1us1 said:

Nope. Cap combo multiplier is 8x. Unless the combo counter is actually still stacking and I'm only seeing a max of 220 and it wouldn't update until you hit more.

So 1+(.6*8) = 5.8.

 

No you're wrong: kZiAecx.jpg

Plus my gram would not be red criting if it was just 580% btw,

32%*5.8= 185.6% crit chance which only allows for orange crits

 

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So if you have/had ZAW's that were very good look no more, melee 2.0 just threw them in a corner. Do you want to see red crits in only few seconds? Look no more since Gram Prime(maybe Galatine also) can achieve that and the rest of the weapons are obsolete.

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13 minutes ago, Zhaeph said:

So if you have/had ZAW's that were very good look no more, melee 2.0 just threw them in a corner. Do you want to see red crits in only few seconds? Look no more since Gram Prime(maybe Galatine also) can achieve that and the rest of the weapons are obsolete.

That is far from the truth. Gram p and galatine p only went from 180 to 300 and 165 to 280 base damage respectively. That's only a 1.66x and 1.69x dmg increase to compensate losing 3x or even 4x dmg increase from the combo counter multiplier.

Not to mention atm, Cleaving whirlwind's broken bull combo no longer deals the 4x dmg per hit as it used to b4 the update and it still staggers you at the end of the combo lmao

Orthos p on the other hand, went from 64 to 234 dmg, a 3.6x dmg increase. Its new buffs to crit, status and also having a much faster stance and attack speed completely blows the gram prime out of the water.

MR12 orthos p vs MR14 gram p btw

 

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Hi DE, after reading most of the comments through Reddit/in game/this forum, most people are pretty upset by the change. Generally speaking, our fav weapons are nerfed by CO, combo multi, and range on polearms/ whips, ofc also spin to win.  I personally apperciate the effort in for a change. However, nerfing the weapon that has the highest usage across the player base is a wrong kind of mindset to have. Like the catchmoon, if 50% of the MR 27 population uses it and not the other secondaries, it simply means that other weapons are in need for a buff. Nerfing the top use weapon means that, whatever good weapons us the player base chooses, you guys will nerf it, then what encourage us to invest time/potatos/rivens into them? Now we see you are trying to buff the shorter range weapons and nerf polearms to have A similar range.. This confuses me. I remember Steve mentioned he dislikes the phantom dmg, theres no way a short range dagger would be doing 6M with this current update, it just quite the opposite to Steve’s wish. Why would people choose a polearm over a dagger that has a faster attack speed and similar range? 

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15 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

That is far from the truth. Gram p and galatine p only went from 180 to 300 and 165 to 280 base damage respectively. That's only a 1.66x and 1.69x dmg increase to compensate losing 3x or even 4x dmg increase from the combo counter multiplier.

Not to mention atm, Cleaving whirlwind's broken bull combo no longer deals the 4x dmg per hit as it used to b4 the update and it still staggers you at the end of the combo lmao

Orthos p on the other hand, went from 64 to 234 dmg, a 3.6x dmg increase. Its new buffs to crit, status and also having a much faster stance and attack speed completely blows the gram prime out of the water.

MR12 orthos p vs MR14 gram p btw

 

Yep, just put Tempo Royale on it and see how it goes....while polearms stances are still low.

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14 minutes ago, Zhaeph said:

Yep, just put Tempo Royale on it and see how it goes....while polearms stances are still low.

Tempo damage and speed are now more less the same as cleaving, August mesto (the old hold block combo) has no forward momentum due to it being a neutral E combo now.

Twirling spire(polearm) has forced slash and impact procs in its combos with very decent dmg multipliers (200-400%) As well as being much faster than the heavy blade stances

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1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

No you're wrong: kZiAecx.jpg

Plus my gram would not be red criting if it was just 580% btw,

32%*5.8= 185.6% crit chance which only allows for orange crits

 

Weird. Last night I couldn't break 8x and I was at 220. 

Also rivens or another cc mod would allow you to red crit sooner.

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flailing branch、decisive judgement、tranquil cleave can't deal finisher

that's impassible press "x" to finisher make those stance meaningless then before

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All my worst fears about these changes are true. This was not an attempt to raise up sub par weapons and bring down the upper limits to something reasonable, but to make all melee mediocre and less effective than guns. As one of my clan mates stated, Yay for realism! Too bad it's not fun.

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Tonfas much nastier in base form now. Big changes in their stances too though which helps there. Condition overload's gonna need some looking at however, as is it's just a flat out better mod for everything and everyone than primed pressure unless your weapon's flat-out incapable of statuses (and even then maybe you can just Zakti half the room on your way in anyhow).

  • (edit:) Doubling the base damage may not be quite enough due to the combo counter no longer affecting them. Some weapons got a bit more than double damage, but a lot of melee use would have you up to x2.5 or x3+ and get sustained there, especially when trying to blend through high level enemies.

Heavy attacks aren't quite heavy enough for their wind-up time once modded up: Increased attack speed not affecting the heavy mode means you may still be better off chaining attacks until very high combo values but even then the pause feels a little awkward. This isn't a giant screw-you beam like Battacor, it's not charged as quickly either, so tapping the alt-fire button for a heavy attack feels unimpressive both in effect and visually (the ones I've seen so far are not really flashy or anything either).

  • Suggestion: Why not have Heavy Attacks 'burn off' the bar 20-30 a swing at a time letting you make a proper series of attacks (albeit with decreasing power) after the initial wind-up time?

Whips might be a little short for their values compared to Galatine Prime and its heavy friends, though I find myself thinking machetes might be worth trying again now? I mean the stances were changed too right?

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I was hoping that Ripkas would see some improvement, but it has the same critical chance and status chance as before the update: 20% and 15% respectively. I strongly believe that it should get a buff to either stat to help it become more specialized like most weapons. I was so excited to see what they were going to do with the chainsaw claws!

Condition Overload is right where it should be IMO, so I wouldn't change it much. I don't see how you can call a flat base damage increase "useless trash". Would you ever turn down +base damage on a melee riven? I don't think so.

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18 hours ago, VoadorHolandes said:

It has been said that stacking combo multiplier is much easier now, but that seens to be completely untrue. It takes much longer for it to get going to get much meager rewards from mods such as Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Whereas before you were able to get a 1.5 combo going at 5 hits to gain 1.5 times the benefit from these mods, now it takes 20 to get one time the benefit, In fact, for one to get a similar benefit from a 1.5 combo BR as it was before, you need a 5 stack combo with 80 hits! And that is considering that the mods seen to be effecting only the base stat and not the overall one. It is easier to reach higher counts of combo, but much slower to reach low combo counts.

Now, what puzzles me is that, the combo system was remade in order to fit heavy attacks in it; and for what? For an attack that will (definitely) kill one mob in a game in which you kill thousands every match? Why is it that, as they get higher, combo multipliers are given in shorter intervals rather than the contrary? I don't think this works at all.

*

Has anyone else tested weeping wounds yet? To me it doesn't seen to be working at all. Even a high status weapon such as the Ohma won't give a guaranteed proc during a 12x Combo.

 

 

 

 

Blood rush on my ninkondi prime used to get me to orange and red crits at 3x, which takes about the same time as getting it to 12x now. But even with the 12x combo, I am only getting yellow crits with  some orange crits. I think blood rush seems to calculate off the base crit chance of the weapon rather than the modified one like it did before. so with the ninkondi prime, with its 22% crit chance, each combo multiplier only adds 12% chance for a total of 144% crit chance at 12x as opposed to the 20% or so it should be adding with true steel equipped, for a total of +280% crit chance at 12x.

I don't know if this was intended, but I'm hoping its just a bug. 

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Disregard (any way to delete our own posts? can't seem to find one), thought I was still tabbed to the Techniques thread.

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Zenistar disk duration has been cut down to 10 seconds which makes it just a joke. In this state it is no long worth using :(

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4 hours ago, -Pui- said:

Hi DE, after reading most of the comments through Reddit/in game/this forum, most people are pretty upset by the change. Generally speaking, our fav weapons are nerfed by CO, combo multi, and range on polearms/ whips, ofc also spin to win.  I personally apperciate the effort in for a change. However, nerfing the weapon that has the highest usage across the player base is a wrong kind of mindset to have. Like the catchmoon, if 50% of the MR 27 population uses it and not the other secondaries, it simply means that other weapons are in need for a buff. Nerfing the top use weapon means that, whatever good weapons us the player base chooses, you guys will nerf it, then what encourage us to invest time/potatos/rivens into them? Now we see you are trying to buff the shorter range weapons and nerf polearms to have A similar range.. This confuses me. I remember Steve mentioned he dislikes the phantom dmg, theres no way a short range dagger would be doing 6M with this current update, it just quite the opposite to Steve’s wish. Why would people choose a polearm over a dagger that has a faster attack speed and similar range? 

I'm interested as to where you think the amount of money needed to re-balance 102 weapons for probably a month at least is going to come from.

as for the latter, spin to win was no effort trash, and I won't miss it.

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2 hours ago, Endorphinz said:

I was hoping that Ripkas would see some improvement, but it has the same critical chance and status chance as before the update: 20% and 15% respectively. I strongly believe that it should get a buff to either stat to help it become more specialized like most weapons. I was so excited to see what they were going to do with the chainsaw claws!

Condition Overload is right where it should be IMO, so I wouldn't change it much. I don't see how you can call a flat base damage increase "useless trash". Would you ever turn down +base damage on a melee riven? I don't think so.

Sparring is pretty much a third of what it needs to be in terms of damage, so "useless trash" isn't as much hyperbole as you might consider it. My TTK is literally tripled, and my 185%CC 300%D riven isn't putting near as much work as you think it is.

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Please revert Maiming Strike change back to being a flat bonus to the weapon's base crit.chance and instead decrease its value from +90% to 45%.

The way it works now kills every slidemelee weapon with a low base crit.chance whereas those with a high base.crit chance are still powerful, from a weapon balance perspective that is really bad.

 

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melee now became a chore against high level enemies. crit-builds are massively less effective thanks to the change in the calculation of the blood rush + maiming strike/riven combination. and to top this, you have made x12 the maximum in the counter too... i liked using melee most in warframe, now it feels like work using it with not much fun to it anymore.

the heavy melee, though nice as an idea, is of not much use in actual gameplay since we can kill the normal low level enemies usually with one normal attack anyway and those enemies against whom it 'could' be of use either have damage-caps on them (nox) or would still be faster (time-wise) to kill with multiple normal attacks than using the heavy on them, thanks to the much longer animation...

the loss of the channeling also makes me sad, since i regulary used it and had some of my favorite weapons modded for it (and the zaw-arcanes too) - neither the change in stats nor the heavy attack can compensate this even slightly.

the stances (i know, not really for this thread but to be complete about the melee changes it put it here anyway) are ok (at least those i tested so far) but some sure got a bit weird.

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