(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback

[KorteX5K]

At first i tought i was dreaming, but then i realized this nightmare of patch is real. 

The Old Blood a.k.a Dead Melee, melee was perfect, sure some things could use a couple buffs to keep up with plague zaws, co, maiming but overall it was fine. But now its all dead, its all useless past level 150, all the rivens we rolled for our builds, all the mods we worked to get, all for nothing. Instead of buffing other weapons to get them to keep up with the meta, somehow you decide its a better idea to nerf everything into freaking oblivion. Yes we wanted a challenge, yes we wanted harder content, but destroying our weapons isnt the way to give us that. Give us content that starts level 200+ and scales fast to 600's and 700's, that would've been fun to play. But now we are stuck to this useless and boring as hell star chart content that no one wants to do anymore, with these enemies that dont even feel like enemies. And these melee weapons that deal damage that makes me wanna puke. But i guess you guys never listen do you? 18 pages of feedback on arbitrations and nobody at DE even bothered to read it apparently.

Melee was perfect as it was, these heavy attacks and slam bullS#&$ are all utterly useless and a waste of time to use, not even gonna mention the new stances. You wanted to balance things? Like i said harder content, higher level missions, you didnt have to destroy every single melee.  LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY FOR ONCE. 

 

[Dragazer]

52 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm indifferent to C.O. being additive, instead of multiplicative... but

 I do think that C.O. shouldn't have any max cap limit, if they're gonna make the buffs work additive to P.P. (instead of at the end of the damage equation, like it used to). If players can sustain 4-8 status procs on enemies, then they deserve to get a 480-960% additive* damage bonus to their status weapons. 

 

>Or they could've kept it working the same as it used to, but lower the buff to 50%, and THEN implement the max 3 stack bonus.... or give it diminishing returns instead of giving it a max stack bonus (as long as it's multiplicative, to the total damage). 

 

Players shouldn't be punished for their  resourcefulness, creativity, or ingenuity. I don't use C.O. often, and i don't use zaws often, so i'm honestly not saying this out of personal bias: If DE didn't want the Plague Kiprah to be an overly abused meta, maybe just make the other weapons better. Or make better crit build mods (instead of nerfing blood rush, and C.O.)

Just make stronger enemies, and increase player warframes' max HP/armor if you want to fix the scaling/instakill problems with enemies. 

CO is no longer capped at 3 status like in the workshop, they changed it last minute b4 the update. It now stacks additive in both ways with itself and with pressure point. Making it an additive bonus to pressure point was what killed the damage

[hqz_]

On 2019-10-31 at 11:49 PM, AXCrusnik said:

Anyone know what "follow through" is supposed to mean in reference to melee (as opposed to the conclave mod)?

(because I was wondering about the same thing myself)

[Sibernetika]

Heavy attacks are pretty useless... aaand charging heavy attack for a boatload of damage, butcher chops me to death before my heavy attack even finishes with the attack delay.... life strike so useless now, can't use it for a crap moment, nope you better have enough health and armour to survive the long delay before that charge attack even connects

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

I went to see how my Gara performed, and she took a massive hit with my stat stick. My DoT went from nearly 40k damage per cast down to 23k. It sucks.

Given that Gara's 1 only scales off of melee mods, not melee weapons, I don't see how this is possible.

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

CO is no longer capped at 3 status like in the workshop, they changed it last minute b4 the update. It now stacks additive in both ways with itself and with pressure point. Making it an additive bonus to pressure point was what killed the damage

It's better than a max disposition "Damage Riven"

I don't see how C.O.'s damage is "killed" at all... it's just not insanely disproportionate, like it used to be. This means it's no longer a "mandatory/must have, for any build" which does free up a slot for more build diversity.

Or I'd like to say that it's no longer mandatory, but that's not the case. Instead, it just made itself even MORE mandatory than it used to be. It only freed up a mod slot, by invalidating the use of pressure point/primed pressure point. 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Nezha-Prime]

All stances of the same rarity should have the same general level of damage bonuses. Switching from one stance to another has a huge impact on damage output now that CO and bloodrush are not as effective. Some stances hardly have any bonuses at all, while others have 6x + damage multipliers. 

[Anthraxicus]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Given that Gara's 1 only scales off of melee mods, not melee weapons, I don't see how this is possible.

You tell me. I don't know either. I don't know if it is something changed in the calculation of damage or whatever, but the exact same build for my Lash took a massive hit to the point it is unusable due to double the amount of work to get my DoT to the same levels as before.
I expect large scales changes like that to mess up with a bunch of stuff, so it shouldn't be a surprise that melee 3.0 is a disaster.

[Yaizen]

you guys literaly kill all melees now we can't kill lv+160

[Dumcomester]

150% @ 1.5X, 200%@2x 300%@3x...

Here we'll take all that away and give you a token 60% buff to base weapon dmg.

..l.,

By the way, we added heavy attacks. you can sacrifice your 720% crit buff for one swing... go on try it out.

..l.,

 

[StormSaber1]

After testing a bunch of weapons and trying to figure out their builds, I realized that Condition Overload pretty much makes other base damage mods (Pressure Point) a waste of a mod slot and an undesirable stat in rivens, even with around 20% status chance, if your attack speed is fast enough. Same thing with Blood Rush and other critical chance mods, there's just no point in adding 88% more crit chance from Sacrificial Steel, when you have 720% from BR.

As others said, making CO be additive with itself was a good idea, but it still should apply to total damage instead of base damage. Same with BR, make it apply after other crit chance mods, but make it scale linearly instead of exponentially.

[-Edrick-]

First and foremost, my feelings are neutral about this rework as DE is being open to feedbacks (and changes will eventually be inbound).  But as a first impression, the new melee direction is going towards the right path, imo. However, the normalizing of dmg (and nerfs) for all the melee weapons would only make more sense if they capped or balanced enemy scaling (first) instead of just outright 'cold-turkeying' play-styles (and builds) developed and cultivated over the years over an "unintended" dmg scaling mechanic or game play that DE wanted fixing.   If you look behind some (not all) of the rants, one of the underlying mentality/perspective atm is basically "how can this (new rework) kill lv 200 - 400+ efficiently?!"  

And this may seem like it needs to be in another thread, but i believe, the indirect underlying (elephant in the room) issues here are the enemies scaling, (linear enemy) AI, and player survivalbility during high content. These should have been addressed first as a whole before any weapon/melee rework imo.  Warframe's main content and story difficulty hovers between lv 40-130. So in that aspect the melee changes is 'fine' and manageable (with some grain of salt). 

Basically, player dmg scaling got nerfed but enemy scaling remains untouched.   In a sense, its kinda like DE telling us that we shouldn't be trying to fight lv 400+ enemies with this new system and just stick to fighting lv 40-130's instead (bit of a stretch but you know what i mean, i hope  😛 ).

Again, If players weren't so squishy at high levels and scaled enemies at those (unpractical) levels wasn't so (exponentially) powerful (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling), but rather were treated like the new CO's scaling,  then I feel the nerfing of player dmg scaling, in any form, would be a little more acceptable and easier to work with or adjusting. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by -Edrick-
grammaR

[MysticDragonMage]

exalted blade feels badly nerfed. 

a life strike modification now forces the player to approach enemies and wind-up an extremely delayed attack as opposed to safely gaining health from a distance before the update.

i also believe auto parry no longer works like before, in that it may be reduced which is a heavy nerf since this passive contributed a lot toward EB's survivalbility.

its stats seem unchanged which means EB was given no compensating stat buffs with the new system like all other melee weapons, making it feel weaker in comparison

feels somewhat unnecessary to have a ranged slam attack energy wave now that every melee weapon can do this

a very minor issue but it also feels unecessary to give EB a lunging melee attack after a block since every normal attack is already ranged.

this in addition to the fact that all exalted weapons still cannot equip acolyte mods.

 

first it would be nice to finally be able to equip the acolyte mods since most of them are somewhat useful with the new update. it would also be nice to give EB a heavy energy strike so that players can gain health from a safe distance with a life strike mod like before. 360 auto parry definitely needs to come back because early builds need that survivalbility. maybe apply a different effect when using a ground slam; my personal suggestion is a weaker radial javelin. referring to the minor lunging attack issue i've mentioned before; my personal suggestion for an alternative would be a single-target slash dash or a more unique attack.

Edited November 3, 2019 by MysticDragonMage

[ArcKnight9202]

It may have been mentioned before, but the Heat Sword and Dual Heat Swords have no Heat damage. The Heat Dagger does, though.

There are a surprising lack of high Puncture damage melees(weighted for puncture). It may be the case for Impact, too, just haven't checked yet.

Also, I'm a little surprised you literally stripped away every single solitary mono-elemental weapon and gave them all IPS damage. That's a little disappointing since everything is a lot more similar. I guess this might be easier to balance around but it removed the identity of a lot of weapons in the process. I'm actually surprised you left the Shaku alone with it's only-Impact damage.

Do what you want with this feedback. Overall, I am enjoying a variety of weapons.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

So I took some time to think about the situation with Condition Overload at work and an epiphany came to mind with the Old Blood update:

Say that you’re a new or intermediate player starting up Warframe with this current patch, and you haven’t gotten all of the mods yet. And you happen to have some plat to spend, or are part of a clan that can help with the loot grind. Then you’re approached between farming/using Condition Overload or purchasing/trading Primed Pressure Point during one of Baro’s visits where he has the mod for sale.

With the recent discussion (and discourse) regarding Condition Overload, we have a very clear realization that it outdoes and completely replaces Primed Pressure Point, a primed mod that is 10 ranks and requires an immense amount of credits and endo to max rank, as a gold mod with 5 ranks and lesser endo and credits investment to tack on. This is a very unusual paradigm that was placed when you made Condition Overload’s algorithm additive to the damage calculation the same way Primed/Pressure Point does, DE. This indirectly made modding “cheaper” for players that have access to Condition Overload - those that can farm it, had the luck of the draw via transmutation, or paid plat for it on Trade. And it directly affected the demand for Primed Pressure Point from Baro sales or Trade prices for this particular primed mod.

Is this the player progression that you aimed to achieve, DE? A 5 rank gold mod that can perform better than a primed mod that is representative of a pinnacle item meant to be better than most other mods, which requires the player to invest a large amount of Endo and Credits to achieve its max rank? Wasn’t max ranking mods a rite of passage when trying to maximize rank 10 mods in Warframe? And yet we have Condition Overload that performs like Pressure Point, but becomes “better” based on the present damage algorithm and typically replaces it?

Really, I firmly believe it’s best to go back to the drawing board with Condition Overload‘s algorithm. Even going back to the original algorithm but adjusting the melee multiplier to a lower +xx% rather than the +60% would be the ideal consideration to take. As it is now, Condition Overload just feels weirdly monotone if it’s going to replace Primed Pressure Point instead of becoming a mod that adjusts situational status application and provides it as a buff to melee. It’s lost a lot of its identity when you think of how the present changes to the mod made it this way.

Edited November 3, 2019 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[ZarakkiZenn]

Still testing and finding stuff out...

I think the goal overall was achieved: to make melee and weapon swapping feel more fluid. The base damage increase on melee means it's no longer "melee only" or "weapon only". You can comfortably take a partially leveled, incomplete build into a sortie and do fine. That's questionable though.

So it's a buff on lower levels and definite nerf on higher levels. I thought the goal here was to kill Maiming Strike, not melee in general.

That presents a different problem, though: progression. Newer players aren't going to care at all about maxing their melee weapons and acquiring the full set of mods. Lack of progression and long term goals through difficulty is a problem for any MMO that hopes to keep player coming back for more.

The changed to Blood Rush, Condition Overload and combo stacking, together with the crutch (that very few people have yet to notice) to compensate for this nerf, mean, to me, that melee builds are somewhat of a joke. The warframe equivalent would be to say: throw on vitality and redirection and you're done, or,  when it comes to primaries, serration and split chamber and you're good to go.

Combo Mods, Blood Rush and Condition Overload (the only truly hard to attain mods for melee) are no longer necessary. I've been building for crit and gg. If you run into a highly armored target, you're dealing no damage on the first combo anyway, until they stagger, at which point damage ramps up during that animation, and if that isn't enough, at the end of the second combo (during which the enemy is staggered) you'll knock them down and ground finisher.

Very, very, very, very questionable indeed. Melee, in comparison to what it was, is overpowered until it poops out. Neither extreme is desirable.

[Shaburanigud]

Heavy attacks may need to be buffed a bit more.
Not dmg wise but in QoL wise.

One of the main reasons why charge attack was never used was because of its slow wind up time
Yet even now when it is to be an improved version, it still has the same problem.

May I suggest you lessen its wind up time for better usability?
And maybe some increased range during the heavy attack as well.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2019-10-31 at 11:21 PM, Jenggo_Kalem said:

Nobody talk 'bout redeemer? Well it's sucks!

Why:

1. Regular shot attack erase the combo counter,
2. Where the blast proc when shooting foe's?
3. My 100% Stat not proc 100%

Please fix the gunblade. Arrrrgghhh....

 

[Marinara19]

I like the changes to the combos kinda so far, hated the pause and hold combos before; the only real complaints i have is....

1) I thought we were getting ougi style combo as a heavy attack, but all it is, is a charge attack. This was very disappointing...

2) You removed charge attack but put heavy attack on another button even though its nothing grand and is pointless to use with no combo? So why even change the button? i would love if you put it back.

Maybe after i play it more i will find something i dont like but it feels kinda clunky... which is my main issue.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Marinara19

[SilviaS12]

@DoomFruit. @DeltaPangaea @Maxim_M_Payne@Ofeban @YourFriendlyNoggin    I believe this is where our feedback matters now.

Edited November 3, 2019 by SilviaS12

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

2 hours ago, SilviaS12 said:

@DoomFruit. @DeltaPangaea @Maxim_M_Payne@Ofeban @YourFriendlyNoggin    I believe this is where our feedback matters now.

I don't know about delta and ofeban but doomfruit and maxim have been giving big ol feedbacks in the "technique" thread, I only realised the thread existed yesterday after posting that big thing in the old feedback thread(I blame my brain ).

[wirecard]

To this day, i still haven't figured out exactly what this Melee Rework should do. I guess it is to move the Meta from "Scoliac + Spin-to-Win" to a broader range, also I'm totally fine with "rebalancing" Maiming Strike, I really welcome it. Sure now theres a lot of Weapon Diversity, nearly every Melee is suitable for Starchart/Sortie/Lich Rank5 Missions.

But beyond?

The "rebalancing" of Blood Rush and especially Condition Overload makes it nearly impossible to do Defense-, Disruption- and Survival Long Runs since we need the Power Creep to handle the Armor- and Life Scaling. Especially Disruption where you need Tons of Power for the Demolysts. .

Some Suggestions:

• Make Combo-Counter stack a bit slower, but again endless, for that it will hurt again to die and loose Combo Counter, while making Heavy Attacks consume a (moddable) amount of Combo-Hits instead of consuming ALL
• Make Condition Overlord multiplicatively stacking again.
• Make Bloodrush be affected by the modded Critchance.
• Maybe completely remove Maiming Strike and all form of Slidecrit from the Game, because was really scaling off the Horizon. And , personally, I dont like it anyway. (yeah hate me for that, other players.. scoliac? atterax? yummy 3k mastery ^^)
• Range. It is ridiculous that a Heat Dagger has 1.75m Range whereas a Polearm far bigger than a Warframe has "just" 3m Range, and that this is extendled by Flat 3m with Primed Reach. Its 4.75m with a Dagger that is merely an Arm-length long. Sure you can argue, with an Arm 1m long, a .5m long Dagger can reach a target 1.5m away. But then this should also count towards a 3m long Polearm so it can reach a target 4m away. 

I read somewhere that You dont want Players to do Long Runs. Then why you give the Opportunity to do so, even encourage it with bringing a new endless Mode aka Disruption few Months ago? DE if you really dont want Players to do Long Runs, please communicate it directly, cap the Level Scaling to whatever we can encounter in Simulacrum (we still can fight on then, only the complete broken armor scaling gets hidden, so not every new/reworked Frame needs a dmg Resistance Meter, Armor stripping Ability and  Nuke/Crowdcontrol capability), or just force us to leave the mission.

All in All i have mixed but tending to the bad feelings about this Update. Yes I appreciate the Diversity and that my Prisma Skana can shred now, but on the other Hand I really miss the Opportunity to kill high-level Enemies fast and do stupid amounts of Damage. It feels not right. 

[Sohaya-]

Why are status melees so poopy now?

I am not calling for a crit nerf. If anything blood rush is in a good spot right now, it isn’t overpowered or anything. 
But back then status weapons were good mainly because of how good condition overload was. Now that that’s gone, they’re just sort of lying in the gutter in the earlier stages compared to crit weapons which can still deal with higher levels more easily now because their method of damage boosting works much more consistently than status weapons; it’s an almost guaranteed high multiplier.

This means that the only good melee build now consists of a hybrid. Pure crit is very eh, status even more so. Together they just manage to keep a semblance of being able to keep up with guns; status providing the base damage and debuffs, crit providing a little up front damage, neither giving enough oomph to go into high levels on their own.
 
On top of that because of how they’re calculated now, both mods have rendered their base counterparts (True steel and pressure point) useless once you’ve gotten them. There isn’t really a point anymore.

I would make blood rush and condition overload a separate layer of multipliers again, toning the values down ever so slightly to match. That should fix a lot of concerns.

Also why did the Paracesis of all things get nerfed, it has the lowest base damage out of the galatine, gram and scindo primes now

Edited November 3, 2019 by RWBY-WhiteRose

[Sohaya-]

Furthermore all exalted melees, which never got a Damage balance pass to keep up with the new melees, just don’t work anymore; they’re just low tier weapons, hysteria and desert wind in particular. Would like those to get improved. Gram has a base damage of 300 which is somewhat equal to hysteria, except this was not the case pre patch; gram only did ~half the damage of Hysteria which made it somewhat decent.

Edited November 3, 2019 by RWBY-WhiteRose

[Anthraxicus]

8 hours ago, Shaburanigud said:

Heavy attacks may need to be buffed a bit more.
Not dmg wise but in QoL wise.

One of the main reasons why charge attack was never used was because of its slow wind up time
Yet even now when it is to be an improved version, it still has the same problem.

May I suggest you lessen its wind up time for better usability?
And maybe some increased range during the heavy attack as well.

Why not remove them altogether? Think about it. Nobody will actually use them during normal gameplay. Long animation that makes you vulnerable, doesn't have a large area of effect, depletes your combo counter and has some new awful effects with mods like Life Strike.
Nobody wanted heavy attacks. It is simply a nonsense DE is trying to force down our throats. It is better to remove these attacks and revert the changes to mods that require them, or replace with something useful. All heavy attacks achieved was making the game worse.