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[DE]Danielle

(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

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Disclaimer: The first problem with this is on my end.  I was really excited to finally have a nemesis system in the game, so with very little thought involved, I jumped right into the nemesis system.  I tend to have hit-or-miss luck with pugs, for instance today I had people that were trying to be helpful by suggesting I take a reward, and then others who were somewhat less helpful and said they'd report me after they called me an "hijo de puto" and I snapped back at them.  Community is what it is, and for the most part I try to do things solo except where it doesn't matter like defense missions or sorties.  Unfortunately that's where the first problems of Update 26 stem from, it is not solo friendly.  As I don't really care about Kuva, I didn't tend to run Siphons or Floods with them holding very little appeal for me, after all if I really wanted Kuva there's a Disruption or Kuva Survival that can be run.  I hate running relics, I hate running fissures to get an arbitrarily random number of void traces, and I especially hated that for best results on an "Uncommon" drop, I would need to "radiant" a relic, so the Kuva Kill Cards being built into the relic system was a definite factor in my decision to take a break.

1. The Kuva Lich system certainly appears to need more work, such is the nature of the beast.

My criticisms:

Having all of the Kuva relics in the same reward pool is the first block I ran headlong in to.  If you run a flood you have a guaranteed chance at one of four relics, which might give you the card to get one step closer to killing the Lich.  Doesn't seem so bad until you look at Floods which were previously run on a limited schedule to limit the influx of Kuva.  Which means the floods are supremely outdated at this point.  Siphons on the other hand give you a "30%" chance to get a Kuva Relic, which leads to a lot of empty runs.  It is entirely possible that you will be stuck twiddling your thumbs waiting for the next convenient Siphon or Flood.  If I could go after it, I would try to find a way to make an endless mission of some kind (maybe a node for the planet the survival is on, using a Grineer Galleon tileset as a placeholder with Kuva relics in the reward table, as this would provide more opportunities for the new relics.

-After that you have void traces.  Instead of only getting void traces from fissures it would be nice to get a slightly more stable source of Void Traces from the Void missions, so that people might actually go back in for more than just getting the 2-5 argon crystals after a new weapon comes out that inevitably needs them.  It wouldn't even have to be all that much, it could be as little as 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 for each tier, just a little something extra to entice people to revisit the void especially if they hate the generation of void traces that can be anywhere from 1 to 48.  I understand the desire to lock it down behind a grind wall, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  Though this is more about how I would address my issues with the relic system in the game.

--Then you have the Lich stealing things.  From my limited testing of a day or two, I noticed he was stealing roughly 1/6th of my resources.  That didn't bother me quite as much as the first time my lich stole Void Traces from me.  The theft of Void Traces should be verboten, as it's a significant component of the relic system, which is what the Lich Kill Cards are inextricably attached to.  Then someone else informed me that they can also steal the Kuva relics too.  That, if true, would be a horrible design decision, and should almost certainly be reconsidered.  If something vital to the defeat of is stolen, it feels bad, it didn't make me want revenge when my Lich stole the void traces.  It made me want to logout.  It doesn't feel good, it feels like a poorly implemented effect, although if he only stole resources I wouldn't care so there is value there.  If this opened up an opportunity to sneak into the Lich's base of operations to steal whatever he stole back immediately, a la ancient history Raid missions, or maybe the old style of mobile defense missions where you ran from console to console snatching up a box and eventually moving to the exit, it would, in my opinion, go a long way to mitigation of this frustration.  It doesn't even have to be a "take back everything", it could just be "take back void traces" for MD1.0 or "take back relic" for Raid 1.0, you wouldn't even need to create new voice lines, as I'm sure they're still kicking around, and I recall part of the mission intro being "there is a relic onboard, find it and take it" for Raid 1.0.  Or, as a compromise, make it so that the Lich only needs its influence wiped from the node to prevent your stuff being stolen instead of needing its influence on the whole planet cleared.  Conveniently this leads to the next problem:

---Next you have the problem of level scaling, and the over-reliance upon immunity systems.  The Kuva Lich minions start around level 70, but as the Lich levels, so do they.  Unfortunately this also leads to level 100 enemies on an Excavation mission, the Excavator has always had this issue, and it really should scale in health with the mission level similar to how endless defense works, or at the absolute least able to be healed by the Vazarin dash like the defense objective can be.  For the normal enemies in something like exterminate or capture this isn't a major issue.  Unfortunately, the Lich thralls compound the situation further by having the immunities to status effects that Eidolons have, I get that you don't want the thralls to be too easy, though I was still one-shotting level 100 scorpions and powerfists with my Hirudo, but after I got a Bombard and Napalm thrall together in the first room of a Survival to push the Lich off of Saturn, I began to question this decision to make them immune to status effects, a great equalizer in the toolbox of the Tenno.  The Lich itself goes one step further and also has immunity to Shattering Impact, similar to Profit Taker and Exploiter Orb which means at level 110 he's just a massive pool of armor and health.  It makes me wonder what the point of giving us all of these fun toys to play with is, when a design decision like this is made to turn the game into a slog against a boss that you can't conceivably kill, which leads to my next issue.

----The fight itself with the Lich is annoying until you get all 3 cards together and in the proper order.  You have the choice of being instagibbed and spending a revive, or letting it chase you around the map until it locks a door and then you have to hack the door open to continue to try to ignore it.  It gave me Wolf of Saturn Six vibes all over again.  I get that the design is to show off all these new animations that were made just for the Lich to take out the Warframes, it demonstrates that the Lich is more powerful than anything that came before it.  It just gets annoying hitting the revive button for the 15th time in an attempt to clear the Lich's influence from a section of the star chart because the Lich showed up and it's easier to eat the revive than it is to try to outrun it.

And finally, an alternative I would have preferred to have seen to the use of relics, a Lich Lite system, where the Lich has "trusted thralls" that carry single-charge variants of the cards needed to defeat the Lich.  They could be "tougher enemies", after all you're going up the food chain, than the Thralls, perhaps unlocked after you reveal the card by killing Thralls, but could provide another choice for how to go about getting the kill cards without relying too heavily upon the random number generation that is relics to get the cards you need to kill the Lich that has been disrupting your gameplay.

2. Melee changes:

The biggest issue I had with the melee changes were that some of the stances are still "garbage", and we still have the unfortunate situation where some weapons are locked in to certain stances i.e. the Jaw Sword with its Unairu stance default that only has one combo, while the Mire with its Madurai has 3 stances to choose from, some kind of unified stance polarity would have been beneficial prior to the launch of Melee Phase 2.

-Then there's the Tatsu with its Wise Razor stance which seems to have had its combos jumbled up.  The Threshing Grain combo has been linked to the neutral input, while the Cutting Thrice combo has been attached to the forward movement input.  Threshing Grain (the current neutral combo) has you perform a forward spin attack and then slash a few more times after during the combo moving you significantly forward especially when compared to Cut Thrice which performs 3 steps forward in the processing of swinging the sword 3 times.  I'm sure there are other stances that are similarly affected, but that one stood out.

--Followed by the Heavy Attack addition.  The Heavy Attack, for what you sacrifice, never seemed to be worth it.  The outright demand of all of your combo counter in exchange for an attack that does more damage but does not flow smoothly in your combo is jarring.  Then with this update's misstep with Condition Overload, the clear choice is to switch to Blood Rush, which means you expend all of your bonus critical chance for a slightly stronger attack, and then you have to rebuild your combo counter all over again.  Ignoring that the highest combo you can get is 220, which is 12x.  It would be nice to make the heavy attacks flow more smoothly so that you could work them into the combo, while also lower its cost to 1x of your multiplier, but require you to at least have the 1x before you could use it, or as a compromise half of your current multiplier.  The lowered cost as well as making the animations fit more smoothly into the combo could lead to the heavy attack being a nice addition to the system rather than just something that, much like channeling, gets ignored because the cost isn't worth the effect.  Grim Fury (Sparring stance) is a close example to what I mean, being able to comfortably mix in the heavy attack at the end of a series of kicks would look great, but right now the combo has to come to a complete stop and then you get a 2 second animation of lifting your foot into the air and slamming it down.  Maybe this can be tweaked

On a completely unrelated note, a suggestion for the Broken Scepter that I'd have enjoyed seeing: the drain of health/energy orbs be attached to attack speed similar to how finishers were (and possibly still are)?  Selfishly asking because I've gotten my Broken Scepter up to 2.6ish attack speed before buffs thanks to a riven but any time I want to drain an enemy I would be required to stand still for 2 seconds while the drain occurred, in a game that's been advertised as being all about movement.

 

At any rate, maybe I'll reinstall in a few months, and I hope you, as a company, will have figured out the kinks this update has presented and worked them out by then. From the looks of this topic, you've got a long Monday ahead of you.  Until then, have fun with your development and good luck.

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One thing thing that must be changed in the grind is when you are learning a Requiem, you shouldn't "uncover" ones you have already figured out by just trying to kill your Kuva Lich. It COMPLETELY wastes your time. I figured out the first two segments by trail and error. And then the two Requiems I "uncover" afterwards were those two. The Grind was completely useless, merely telling me what I already knew.

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I am sure someone has mentioned it in this thread already, but this desperately needs to be addressed; I have experienced players who refuse to Mercy their Kuva Lich because they either do not want to die OR, more commonly, "don't want to level my Kuva Lich up". As long as that one remains un-mercied then no others can spawn. My suggestion would be to have it leave if the target player goes down 3 times or if nobody attacks it for 1 minute, treating it almost like an AFK scenario.

 

It's very bad manners to just let it keep going when other people would actively like to kill/get killed by their Lich, even just for the knowledge of that particular Requiem.

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So a couple of things. 
 

I really like the lich system but it needs refined. I’ve never really complained about a feature but this one is one of the worst I’ve seen in 6 years.

 

1. Requim mods in relation to the boss should either be awarded by killing the people to get murmers or be permanent. Losing the mod is a bad idea. especially since we’ll be working so hard to get the right one AND the bosses influence can grow and steal our resources. And even if you do have the right mods you’ll be LUCKY to guess the right sequence let alone be able to get the mod. No where in the game does it say you’ll lose the mod but it is evident you do.

 

2. murmurs take to long. I could see maybe needing 5 or 6 but not that many. It’s evident you want us to use the parazon but this is over kill. 
 

I’ll get actual numbers for you later but even without farming the mods it took me about 4 hours to kill a single boss. And they’re not even that strong. It would be cool if there were more steps in a single mission to kill them. 

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I know you guys at DE really like rng, but kuva liches is the worst ever

How many rng layers are this DE?

1. The bonus element percentage is rng even tho the element type is not

2. To get kuva lich with your desired weapon is rng

3. To get kuva lich with your desired ephemera is rng

4. To get the requiem relic is rng from siphon unless flood

5. Even if you get relic from siphon/flood, the desired relic you need is rng

6. Getting mods from the relic is rng

7. Even if you get mods, getting the desired one is rng again

8. To get requiem murmur from 1 mission is rng, sometimes many thralls spawn, sometimes only few spawn

9. To get kuva lich killed is rng, brute force or not

Rinse and repeat

9 rng layer ffs for killing and getting reward from a boss, if you choose not to spend plat. How much times you want us to waste just to kill 1 lich, even more so if the lich has something you already have/don't need

My suggestions

Eliminate/improve some rng layers either on the relic part or weapon/ephemera part, like we won't get same weapon as we currently have that already claimed from foundry unless we own all 13 already or the weapon is not claimed from foundry, same logic applied to ephemera or make the ephemera token based. 

Make all kuva siphon missions give relic 100%, and flood give additional 50% chance to get second relic so we can get 2 relic from flood.

Decrease the amount of thralls need to kill (like most of others have said).

Ability to delete unwanted kuva lich which probably will be okay if they implement the kuva lich donation.

Edited by FartBoySlime
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please either remove the Requiem mods 3 time use limitation OR make them easily obtainable from enemies as a drop

this would fix it for most people , currently it's just too much work for little reward not to mention needing to waste our void traces and the whole idea of it being covered with more and more RNG , this is definitely a misfire and completely discouraged me from engaging the kuva lich system

 

please listen to feedback and make the requiem mods more accessible or not limited by amount of uses, less RNG please.

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kuva lich The overall process is grindy and not really rewarding. Playing higher level missions is really nice but the murmure grind is completely separated from the requiem grind, and you have to die to learn the sequence... and get stuck in the maps...

Murmure should be less wasteful if the missions could have a chance to drop a requiem relic something like 20% (and the lich could still steal them)

We should have a way to avoid death when trying to figure out the sequence, for example by switching to operator. The lich should still exit the mission.

Being killed by the lich is not a real "try and error" process, because there is no skill or understanding, it's bust pure rng to find the sequence... 

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44 minutes ago, FartBoySlime said:

I know you guys at DE really like rng, but kuva liches is the worst ever

How many rng layers are this DE?

1. The bonus element is rng

2.[...]

just to let you know, the bonus element depends on the prognetitor of the lich, as seen here: 

 

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If by dedication he implied doing specifically kuva lich related content I understand what he means. Making normal content harder is really a good move, but the rewards... nothing appart murmures, and then do it again to try to make the lich proc'. And in the mean time do every kuva flood you can (but they are buggy and you may have no requiem relics), and do the fissures in the kuva fortress.

Doing the murmure missions should be more rewarding and clearing a planet should "give" you something, it clould be murmure or a tip for the sequence

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My main issue with liches is how heavily rng and grind dependent they are. It's so bad that I can see a major problem arise. Consider the following.

So you start your lich and you want to get a kuva Karak with toxic damage. Well we found a way to determine what damage type the weapon will get. So you start it and you get a ogris. No current way to cycle other than just doing the lich. 

1. So you start getting murmurs, to get just 1 murmur done you will need to do a good number of missions. You find the mod you need and now need to get it.

2. Play kuva siphons and floods and hope that you get the relic you need. To get the exact relic that is a 1/12 chance from siphons, and 1/4 from floods. There is no way to forcibly get the exact relic you need.

3. Once you have the relic, farm up void traces. Sometimes you can get 20+ per 10 reactant collected, others less than 10. So you will need to do another 4 or so missions to get 100 traces. Or get 50 and try pub.

4. Join a rad share where your team will have an increased chance of getting the mod you need. If you don't get it, go back to step 2. 

5. So you got your mod and put it on. You go back to murmurs and you face your lich. He either kills you outright or you get lucky and discover the mod you just got is in fact supposed to be in the first position (though that will only happen about 1/3 of the time).

6. Go back to step 1 and repeat all this again. Then again for a third time. Though having multiple mods already will drastically help. However they don't last forever. Per lich you will need to use 1 charge of 3 mods. So you can think of this as 1 mod worth of charges per lich. 

Now you can kill the lich.

So... when you first start liches, this is your "to do" list 

Missions for murmurs: a lot

Kuva Missions for relics: between 1 - a lot per rad share

Farming for traces: about 4, maybe more per radshare

Radshare: 3 at least to start, 1 at least per lich after. Multiply kuva and trace farm by number of relics it took to get the mods you need.

All that... and only then do you get another chance at a lich that has the weapon you want. You try again, and you don't get it. Rinse and repeat again.

When you finally do get that weapon, because the stats are randomized and the amount of grind it took, you not only face the possibility of getting a weapon that has better damage, but also the amount of grind makes it not worth even trying to get a better weapon at all. 

So once you get the weapon you want and the others, then you will never have a reason to go back and try getting better stats. Because the heavy rng has an absurd amount of rng locking it. 

Liches should not be both the most rng based content AND the grindiest. 

The system needs to be streamlined. Like let us recharge the mods with kuva as well as getting new ones. That would drastically help. Let us cycle what weapon the lich has by some manner so then we aren't discouraged from trying to farm liches for a better weapon.

You guys added in way too much grind and relied on way too much RNG.

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Not saying this update is good or bad. Warframe evolved into something I don't enjoy playing. If I accidentally kill the grineer guy and spawn a lich I end up with an npc that can only be killed based on rng stuff (not player skills) or he will steal property from my inventory wich should be at least treated as private property. License agreement states otherwise but no agreement is above the law.

Edited by Larizu
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13 minutes ago, HansLuft778 said:

just to let you know, the bonus element depends on the prognetitor of the lich, as seen here: 

 

I'll edit my post, i'm not being clear, i mean the bonus element percentage, and yeah element type can be determined without rng

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On 2019-11-01 at 9:38 AM, IIDMOII said:

This. 

Based on what I've read so far, I don't even want to play this content long enough to provide the "correct" feedback.

I'm starting to wonder if these guys are confusing a test of skill with a test of patience. 

test of skill this is not, 

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On 2019-11-01 at 2:16 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

DEV NOTE

Is there a public announcement to disclose if formaing a Kuva weapon 5x will gain an extra 1k mastery points like Paracesis?

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Dont know if this is a bug but you can cheese lich with saryn, if u put regen molt augu before parazoning it, the lich finisher doesnt kill you, so you get to know if your mods are wrong and lich doesnt gain lvl up

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12 hours ago, ToaSirian said:

Did i just read that the requiem mods ARE 1 TIME USE? That after you kill your lich YOU HAVE TO FARM THEM AGAIN??????? Boy, talk about grind on grin on grind. Yall at DE rally really cant come up with something fun, or remotely challenging without 4 layers of RNG?

You can kill 3 different liches with the mods before they are consumed. I think its fine.

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Part of the reason i love warframe is it is co-operative. 

There are aspects of the old blood that drive a spike into that and create unnecessary negativity between players, and force players to play solo to maintain good etiquette and relations with others.  

When you have a lich , but are still learning their sequence, when they appear in mission you have two options.

You can effectively let them kill you with a bad parazon attempt to get rid of them, levelling them (which means more chances of kuva relics you need to beat them being stolen)  and making them more trouble to deal with in mission

 or

you can stand over them and babysit their death cycle so others can finish mission.  But if you do this, you are 'spawn blocking' .

 Both of these cause a lot of unnecessary negativity and make it better to solo lich missions to not deal with it. 

 

Please add something like , if you kill them 10 times in  a mission  they back off 'thats enough fun for today' , and they only become truly persistent in missions when you have all the sequence parts known. 

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The fact that the Lich can steal the relics which are required to farm to fight him is bad enough, And it takes forever to fill a single murmur when you do manage to get one. 

This update in general has killed my liking for the game

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For quite some time I don't have much expectations when waiting for a new games or updates, for any game really.

However this time I was somehow hyped and had high expectations about thees Kuva Litches... and sadly I have to say that this was major disappointment.

I understand it that entire nemesis system is one of core elements in Shadow of Mordor and we won't get that level of complexity in it. Dosen't mean that current we have could get better.  I want to throw in some feedback and my opinion about it as this entire hunt is rather unfun thing  to do in game.

So the way Litch is created I am fine more or less with. Kill Kuva infused Grinner and they will become marked for greatness, but why is that limited to nodes that are lvl 20 and above? That sounds rather arbitrary and unnecessary. But still this is minor issue only.

Kuva Litch Progress
Major issue is how after that one kill they are suddenly badass controlling whole planet...and are able to tax us somehow.. I don't mind that our loots get stolen. No that is even cool idea good incentive, however such things should occur only on nodes under control of Litch but not whole planet. They way how quickly influence spreads is off. It was advertised that litch would be building up their influence. I was expecting that Litch at the begging without much skills and fairly unmodified weapons and not very interesting look. I was expecting them to behave more like assassins, crashing to our party, be a nuisance. That immortal Grinner could throw them self on his enemy tenno and keeps coming back knowing them better and better and with that building their reputation. If they would manage to beat player in fair fight then they would level up even more and steal their cosmetic items. Many consider "fashion frame" as end game. Having Litch taunt us while wearing our sydana and decorative armours would add insult to injury and make it much more personal.  Also with them leveling  their looks and amount/type of followers changing. They would be using better weapons with time, eventually getting personal moded weapons, based on their preference and history with player. Similarly their skills, at begging having no skills at all and gaining more and more as they got killed by different warframes. Why limit their skills to four only? It could go up more up to six or eight or even be dependent on litch itself.

Eventually litch would stop hunting players just their kill teams, litch them self would hide and players should run missions to gather Intel to see where the litch is now. Like run spy missions on controlled nodes and you will get additional reward of current litch location.


Dealing with them for good
I'd say it is rather bullS#&$ that those special mods are locked behind relics that occur in only two mission types. While majority of players are addicted to rivens and kuva farming..there could be more ways to get those relics. Like from litch encounters in random missions and even their followers should have chance of dropping  requiem mods. Entire  new relic dedicated to killing litch is neither fun nor interesting, moreover feels heavily detached from rest of the game.  I would much rather have some resource that drops from thralls and this resource would be needed to craft those mods/runes. Finally facing of the litch right now it is game of guessing and dying. Either playing guess the order  wrong and you die or player guess right and they die/become friends. Also guessing wrong making them stronger doesn't make much sense. Shouldn't it make them weaker? Slow their influence spread, cripple them. Remove their skills or even prevent from spawning for few missions.

Rewards
........Are weak, unreliable "friend" or their weapon, with element  based on  the table below.
unknown.png

It is not very interesting reward as sole reward and also this table doesn't make much sense.
If there is physical aspect present, then why it's only impact? If there is impact why not Slash/Puncture too. Garuda/ Valkyr/ Gara/Ash and Khora would be perfect for that.  Why Atlas and Oberon are Toxin?
Then also why there is no Blast/Corrosive/Viral ?

Couldn't their weapon develop as they would do? Being a keepsake after the litch.
Got killed with sneaky frame like ash/loki/ivara ? Weapon gets silnced.
Got killed by tanky frame? weapon gets bonus puncture.
Got killed by fast frame? Magazine capacity or fire rate or reload speed goes up.

And so on and on.

There are also new kuva ltich Armour bundles....that are obtainable through market only as a bundle. For a while I thought those would be drops from litches too but nope. We have ephermas but could be something more unique than gas cloud around.

I hope and wish this system would grow and develop into something greater and actually fun to play.


Now I am really worried about the railjack update.

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expectations over what we got. clearly there were scrapped ideas, great mechanics and the original design (not the one from 50 dev streams ago but the one from tenno con) was also scrapped. a high % of the complaints about the lichs is the amount of time it takes to kill them, too long. but those complaints have appeared for the wrong reasons. 

as expected we were all hoping for a long term relationship with a kingpin, what we got was long term relationship outside of the kingpin. what do i mean? instead of killing the kingpin using kingpin related systems like going after miniboss's of him and discovering information about him or his location or size of fleet and other things, we instead got a gameplay loop that does not involve the kingpin system. you go to normal missions, farm relics, farm traces, farm mods, repeat when mods are out of charge. the only gameplay loop involving the kingpin is going into a mission, running it normally, pressing x on a downed enemy. repeat enough times to spawn the kingpin (for some reason), interact with him once, finish the normal mission objective. the kingpin itself is not its own gameplay loop and having to go to an instance of nodes that cant be farmed for something else does not make sense. a different system could have been that the lich sends one of his commanders with a small army of soldiers to attack you in missions for say when opening a relic, this would make more sense and more enjoyable. to clarify i dont mean that you will get thralls randomly join on random missions i mean remove the thrall system completely or improve it in a way that would make more sense gameplay, lore, mechanicwise and enjoyment. after all this is a game and not work, if the content is fun people will stick around.

now im sure you guys have thought of making a more middle earth type of kingpin system but decided it will take too long and made this system that is mostly based on currently existing content which takes a lot of work off your shoulders (other than designing kuva liches).

kuva liches are basically stalker, it will spawn randomly, and you will rarely get what you want which is all 3 mods currently but with the difference of having to go to its own node to do it.

to quote Steve, he said that so far what you have been giving us is islands and we go to them, get some stuff then come back to the main game. this separated nodes are just as much of islands as open worlds.

"a delayed game is eventually good but a rushed game is forever bad", as i cant confirm it but there is evidence that can lead us to believe that you did rush it, i do believe you should have waited with the kuva liches. im about to say some hard criticism so dont think this is hate speech: nobody asked for liches to be separated from railjack, nobody asked for liches to be released this month. everyone where surprised when you said liches at october. the only apparent reason for it to be rushed is the drop in players where everyone moved to destiny and the lack of updates for a long time. from the original tennocon design the lich system looked like it had a completely self sustaining rich and deep gameplay loop. comparing the kuva lich ending screen from the dev stream to now, rebecca had that lich iirc for over 70 days and has met him only 7 or was it 9 times. i killed 4 liches yesterday, my second with rng that took the same 3 mods as my first lich but at a different order. 

this is the end of the feedback so lets talk about the end of the kuva lich, there are no rewards for grinding everything you just grinded for. the stealing system might have sounded good but in execution it turned out to be one of the scummier mechanics you have introduced to the game. giving the player a false sense of reward by taking a portion of his items and then giving them back at a later time is not actual reward but it just makes you kin to want to buy relic packs so you can make him stop taking your rewards while farming traces for atlas prime. the rewards are variants of weapons we already have and only 3 actual new weapons. invested time and forma for the original weapons is now wasted for anyone who is not a new player. considering the amount of work it takes to kill a lich, needing to level up the same weapon 7 times to level 30 + 2+4+...=30 (that costs more xp than the first 30 levels) is absolutely redundant. someone calculated that to master all the new weapons it costs 70 forma. lets do the math, it will take you 70 days to craft all that forma, days with the rng to get the weapons you dont already have, days to level them all up, days to farm relics, traces and the rng for the actual forma blueprint. farming resources for all that forma. or you can spend 816 platinum to buy that forma and another minimum of 40 plat to buy an affinity booster. the amount of scummy ways to force you to spend ludicrous amounts of plat on this update is honestly worse than waiting even 140 days for content. this is a free to play game and i understand that but dont you think you had enough ways to make people spend plat without introducing this forceful plat spending? got off topic lets go back to talk about the rewards, in reality you are getting 3 new weapons, getting any of the new weapons is rng based meaning you can spend 40 years on this game and not get it and they are just extra grind for a bit better stats than what you already have (i know about the clan lich donating thing but it should have been here from day one to prevent this). in one of the dev streams you said that kuva weapons will not give mastery and you changed that and the only reason i can see why is to make people spend plat on ranking them up to 40. for the last reward, the ephemeras, those are actually nice rewards but they are rng based. not enough that its rng for which ephemera you can get the lich to spawn with but there is a good chance it will spawn without one at all! im on my 6th lich and i still have not seen any ephemeras.

i did not get to talk about the thralls in particular because this is getting really long and i want to keep this as to the point as possible.

for any typos or overlooked grammar mistakes i apologize. 

EDIT: after relooking i see it costs 65 forma and not 70. the point is made but for clarification it is 65 forma.

Edited by --RV--Earth
grammar fixes, poorly structured sentence.
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The worst thing about Liches is the mods and relics.

First of all, nice 800 plat pack with all the mods you got there, DE. Not P2W at all. Nah.

Second - I really don't need all the trash you've put into requiem relics. I need mods. MODS. Not kuva. Not riven fragments. Hell - even the exilus adapter can go straight to trash bin.

Need, say, R4 relic because it has the mod you need to kill you lich? **** you, here's your 10th R3 relic instead. What is that, you do need a mod from that R3 relic too? Too bad, here's 3 duplicates of the mod you don't need, and some kuva. Kindly go and **** yourself. Or buy 800P pack.

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Another (small) rant about the liches: it seems that manual parry doesn't block their grab attack. So if i want to melee my lich i have not other choices than being grabbed a few times

Edited by MonsterOfMyOwn

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Keeping in mind Mark Rosewater's twenty lessons of game design, namely that fighting human nature is a losing battle and your audience is good at recognizing problems even if they're bad at finding solutions, rather than listing a bunch of suggested changes I'm just going to point out the ways my behavior as a player is contrary to the devs' vision for this update and the factors that are motivating that behavior. These are the things that will have to change somehow in order to make this update successful.

First, the stated goal for the Kuva Liches is for them to be a long-term nemesis to the player. However, under the current implementation, I feel compelled to avoid generating a Lich unless I'm prepared for a long play session in which I kill it as quickly as possible after its creation. The reasons for this are:

  1. The Larvling does not spawn in missions that I as a late-game player have much motivation to play. I am primarily motivated to play missions that offer rewards that are relevant to me like void fissures, sorties, and arbitration. Because of this, avoiding creating a Lich is easy.
  2. Similar to point 1, I cannot multitask and make incremental progress towards killing the Lich while playing the content I already want to play. Thralls and Liches only appear in missions that offer regular mission rewards, which are not relevant to late-game players. Thus, no progress towards killing the Lich is ever made, except when I choose to forgo other rewarding content and play the content that is dedicated to making this progress and gives nothing else.
  3. There is a constant negative effect on me while a Kuva Lich is around, with no additional payoff for suffering it (either immediate or long-term). The net reward for killing the Lich is the same no matter what.

Point 2 in particular I feel is a big contributor to why Requiem Murmurs feel excessively grindy right now. It's one thing to kill fifty Thralls that pop up in the things you're already doing, it's another to set aside everything else you're doing for the sake of hunting down fifty Thralls. Contrast this with the Requiem relic drops, which I get in the Kuva Floods I'm already doing. My only issue with Requiem relics is that they're consuming the void traces I'd have liked to use on existing relics.

Then there's the matter of actually fighting the Lich. If I feel I don't have a reasonable probability of having the correct Parazon combination, my natural instinct is to just ignore the Lich. This ends up leading to friction with other players that join my session. The reasons I ignore the Lich are:

  1. If I try to execute it and fail, it instakills me. I don't even get a revive timer. This is just a human nature feels-bad, and there's no getting around it. Players don't want to suicide.
  2. After being instakilled, the Lich ranks up. This makes it take over more territory (making its tax on me worse) and also increases the difficulty of the Lich missions, with no additional reward to compensate. Because of this, Liches ranking up feels like a punishment to the player.
  3. The Lich actively converts nearby Grineer into Thralls, which translates to more Requiem Murmurs. By leaving the Lich alive, I make more progress towards its eventual demise faster than getting rid of it as soon as possible.

That's all I have for now, I may add other points later if I think of them. I hope this sparks some ideas for fixes among the devs.

Edited by pebblepossum
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I'm okay with the Requiem mods being consumable but I'm not okay with the amount of RNG behind their acquisition. If they're consumable, make getting them more reliable and predictable. 
Selling a set of Requiem mods on the market is just a bad look as well. Don't create a problem and sell the solution, just bad optics.

The instant death when you get the wrong order of mods/wrong mods, doesn't feel good at all. I get the idea of it, but gameplay wise it doesn't feel good.

Right now it's:
1. Fight lich, get it's hp down and press X. Go to 2. If you die, go to 5.
2. If you have the correct requiem mod, proceed to 3. Else go to 5.
3. You knock down 1 of it's hp bar. Go to 1 if it has anymore HP. Else go to 4.
4. Recruit or kill?
5. You die. Lich levels up. Try again next time.

I would suggest to make it so:
1. Fight lich, get it's hp down and press X. Go to 2. If you die, go to 5.
2. If you have the correct requiem mod, proceed to 3 and mark the mod as correct. Don't have the correct requiem mod, get some murmur progress, cross out the mod on the mod slot (depending if its 1 2 or 3). Go to 3
3. You knock down 1 of it's hp bar. Go to 1 if it has anymore HP. Else go to 4.
4. If your mod sequence is correct. You can recruit or kill. If you don't have the correct mods, the lich runs away.
5. You die. Lich levels up. Try again next time.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY BETTER !

Edited by Potatoofthedead
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Grind for relics should be reduced. Standard kuva missions should have 100% requiem relic drop rate, kuva floods should provide a relic and have a chance to drop a bonus relic. Also, liches shouldn't be able to steal requiem relics, it's counterproductive. More kuva fissures would be nice as well. So far I saw only rescue with occasional survival.

When it comes to lich territory, I feel it spreads too quickly. I don't know if it is tied to lich's level, but it should be so that the more powerful a lich gets, the more territory they are able to get. At this moment they seem very powerful from the start; I think there should be more buildup to their growth.

At the moment lich territory missions don't seem very special. At least new dialogue would be nice, add more context to these missions, for example in exterminate missions npcs could talk about how we're trying to take the area back from under lich's control.

Finally, lich transmissions should be toned down a little.

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