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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback


[DE]Danielle
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Playing missions in Lich territory when you're not the host is a confusing mess.

Cameras during finishers do not match what you're actually doing, so I was often staring at an empty background.
This has been happening since the "RULES OF NATURE" cinematic cutscenes were introduced back in fortuna and I'm disappointed to still see it happening.

Then, my Lich randomly invaded and I noticed a "press X to... something" pop-up on him, so I curiously pressed it.
And my frame just instantly poofed dead.

Now, I understand the mechanic - you're supposed to get punished for attempting the kill with the wrong combo.
That's not my issue here.
It's just that it happened with nothing to show how and why.
That just makes the entire system feel silly and underwhelming, to put it mildly.

Again, I want to stress this, I have nothing against the mechanic - I love the Nemesis system in SoM/SoW and I like how it was implemented in Warframe (maybe except having to grind the traces for relics, but that's beside the point)
I'm just a bit disappointed about how the networking severely undermines the experience.

Edited by Shifted
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TLDR: The lich hunt is not interesting enough to be a game mode unto itself, it shouild be converted to an enhancement to existing game modes instead.

To elaborate, the murmur grind is real. And really, really boring. It seems pretty obvious that this is supposed to be endgame content, what with the missions starting out at level 50 and going up to 100 as the lich levels up. You know what endgame players are not interested in doing? Basic star chart missions that don't reward anything. This update would be a lot better and the long grind would be completely acceptable if those special thrall missions were removed and thralls instead spawned in all the places they currently don't spawn and that endgame players actually want to spend their time in, i.e. sorties, kuva missions, fissures, arbitrations, maybe even sanctuary (even though it doesn't make a ton of sense there, lore-wise). That would kill two birds with one stone, make this new content significantly less cancerous and also make those old missions that have become stale interesting again. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Edited by SordidDreams
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On 2019-11-02 at 12:03 PM, M3JA said:

Parazon mods need to be filled with kuva. I think its a bad thing that they decay after 3 uses. They can be at least filled with kuva, since we have them. It would be nice if they would stay in our inventory but we cant use them if we don't fill them up. Maybe it would be even nice if we need to fill it up with kuva every time after we kill our lich. This is just my opinion on that and I think it would be a better system with kuva refilling them then to farm them every time they expire. Cheers!

Best idea so far mate...

Why to grind even more for MODS once you got them. better to fill them up with some (not too much) Kuva and ready to go...

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Am 31.10.2019 um 19:16 schrieb [DE]Danielle:

snip~

so, it seems if a weapon has an innate element like blast, it gets reduced and a part converted to the innate weapon bonus. had multiple different weapons now and that seems to be a general thing: shown base blast gets reduced and a part converted to for example innate radiation. the total sum is then a bit more than whats shown as the base-blast amount for example, exact value varying ofc.

all fine and good, otherwise they would be WAY too strong, aside of kuva ogris. from what i can tell kuva ogris is worse than the base ogris, by a LOT. theres nothing a 100% sc ogris cant do better than the kuva version, except for the fact that it could have an innate combined element (rad/mag).

please buff the kuva ogris...its not really an upgrade especially considering the RNG around the lich system. it needs at least the same base dmg total as base ogris or innate 2 projectiles to really make it worthwhile compared to base ogris. if theres a special gimmick of it i havent found yet anyone who figured it tell me im wrong please but i am surely disappointed by the current version of the kuva ogris, and i was really looking forward to it.

on a more positive note, kuva tonkor is nice and a lot of fun, BUT generally i wish formaing up a kuva weapon to 40 max level would have a benefit like it does on paracesis.

it could boost the amount of the innate element by an additive amount per forma invested, up to the cap of 5 forma on lv 40. for example a flat +10 to the innate element and a weapon specific bonus to some key stats, on kuva tonkor +0.1 reload speed and +0.2 magazine size for example. that way it would have 2 magazine size and 1.2 reload after formaing it 5 times.

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   Unlocking murmurs is a terribly long and tedious process, especially for something you’re kind of forced into. I think the Litch is a really cool idea but needs to be implemented a completely different way. The grind for relics was already tedious also and now we have to do it with slightly different relics.
   Maybe instead of murmurs we could have to battle the Litch across the map at random times, kinda like the wolf but not as tanky. Every time you battle you learn a bit more about their strengths and weaknesses. The main difference if this is not farming 100s of thralls and making it blend better with the current game play.
    
   Parazon, I think this should be our main sneak attack weapon as well as execute. Hardly anyone mods a melee weapon for finishers besides a dagger, which just got nerfed. The random availability to use it now isn't worth it. Most of the time you kill the enemy before you even realize you could use your Parazon. 
 

 Melee changes are amazing I think. Thank you for making a ton of weapons viable for high levels. New combos are nice to use also.
 

 

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Hi,

the Kuva Lich is in itself a nice option/idea, but much too much grinde! much too much time you have to sacrifice! this is no fun in the long run! there must be ways to collect "whispers" faster and get relics faster. Extra Farming. It makes after 10 hours of playing simply no more fun.

Please change what. We also have another life outside Warframe.

thank you very much.

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Alrighty, I'm gonna drop some big ideas here that you can use to fix some of these issues. I think a LOT of them need to be applied to the rest of the game in some way when you have a chance though (expanding rewards in line with difficulty/play time, alternate methods etc). maybe gradually after you finish new war (which is still coming for christmas right?) and as you slowly slot in more lich and empyrean content over the coming months. I'm rather very sad for you and all these leaving or frustrated Tenno cause of this recent update, and I have a feeling those expectations are weighing quite heavily even if you are doing what you can. But anyway, this might be a big one, here comes the feedback.

 

PARAZON

The parazon kills are delicious and the cinematic camera is a nice emphasis. My friends and I usually keep trying to fight over who gets the mercy kills and stuff which makes it funner. But I think this needs to be expanded on and improved as you get the time.

Mercy kills on normal enemies don't appear early enough to allow you to react to using it, nor do the enemies usually exist long enough to allow you to use it unless it's a thrall in bleed out. If you want to push this as something useful, something lethal, something cool, something "worth using", it needs a reason useful reason to break your flow (or be worked into someone's flow) and to have more emphasis.

When an enemy reaches parazon HP range if they haven't had it for atleast 2 seconds and dies they should remain alive but stunned/downed in a similar way to thralls for those total 2 seconds to allow you to react to the pop-up so you can hit X on them. After the mercy the enemy should always drop a health or energy orb. not by random, guaranteed, one or the other. A parazon kill should also feed into your combo meter and boost it by a small chunk. it's little things like this that make people want to use it, rather than doing their usual thing... spinning oversized sticks or shooting op guns.

Parazon assassin mods:

In the case of the parazon mods: blood for health/energy these should be stronger, as a single health orb isn't going to do much good for someone playing content this high up.

instead blood for health should draw red particles from the enemy during and after the animation refilling health by 25% of max health and provides like 200 armor for 15 secs. refreshable.

Blood for energy, should draw blue particles from the enemy and essentially cause a small energize burst that gives 25 energy to yourself and allies while improving ability efficiency (or power) by 25% for 10 seconds or something to the killer.

Blood for ammo is good, but a secondary effect like improves next reload speed by 50% would be wonderful.

Hit and run looks alright, but I think 10 seconds would be good, extend also to sprint speed and potentially some kind of 30% evasion could be attached with it over that short time.

Out of sight i'm unsure on. I haven't tested these but given how hard it is to land a mercy on a normal enemy on account of them just popping to normal reasons. But it should display the time the blind lasts for also, while if it doesn't already, opening enemies to normal finishers. Since now people can choose between finishing on X or just meleeing and not being held up on E this is fine for people who'd rather spin their sticks around on them.

A suggestion for some more parazon mercy mods down the line:

Lethal Chain: Animation speeds up 25% and after a mercy 25% chance to to transfer the parazon mark to another enemy within 8 meters regardless of health.

Shared Pain:  After mercy finish release a burst that deals your melee weapon's overall damage in an area around you knocks down within 10 meters.

Unstoppable: After mercy finish improve armor by 100 and health by 10%, stacking up to 5 times, a stack decays every 20 seconds, but is refreshed when you gain another.

Soul Siphon: After Mercy Finish restore the equivalent of 50% of your max shields to self and allies while providing 2 energy per second for 10 secs. (so if you had max 300, you'd restore 150 shields, which if you're at 200 shield, you'd total 350 shields after the burst.)

 

Lich, requiem and the related content

I think it's no secret by now that a lot of people are mad about the stacking grind, while a lot are also just really anal about getting their maximum numbers and not settling for second grade rolls... :V. and they'd be right, but I'll let them dispense with the saltiness, while I focus on the fix that many of them have actually put forward simultaneously.

The player wants control, and less chances to be screwed. There are so many more interesting ways you could have made these new requiem cards work, without adding a second, third, four, and further level of unwelcome grind with reskinned reused content. I understand you are all under stress and need to make stuff fast and you've had release deadlines and stuff you've held yourselves to so to attempt to quell the endless no content callers and bored veterans but with a bit of time this CAN be salvaged, I'm sure of it.

1. Skip bundles:For starters, many have said that including "pay to skip" isn't the greatest move you've made, and I agree. The cosmetics seem good, but including all the mods to skip the grind was a bit off, and so was the relic bundles, even if you do it with normal relics. but you do relic packs for free also from syndicates, it wouldn't be so harsh I'd think if you actually had a way to get "free bundles" like normal relics, but because these are so needed for this system it looks predatory, regardless of your reasons for implementing in such a way.

2. Stacked grind: Weapon randomization on two levels (the weapon the lich has, which is unavoidable) but also the power strength of the bonus from the weapon. These liches, atleast from when they were originally thought of during tennocon, were meant to get stronger from dieing over and over to your tenno magic. Meaning, from multiple fights with the player, potentially over different frames, their strength would continue to be stacked until they were a true force to be reckoned with.

But instead the random value seems to be related directly to the frame that did the first murder and unrelated to what was used to murder them. (in my case, it was a slashbased tether coil trying infinitely to grab the larvling but failing but still being dealt damage. he even commented on being slashed apart) but it still landed as a fire based weapon cause vauban. I hope you're planning to think about this further eventually? Also the randomized value needs to go and become an influenceable system for no life minmaxers to have their fill, but still allow people to have fun without worrying if thats their jam. As it is clearly making people OBSESS about getting the best roll possible and giving them no hope syndrome as they complain to you about it across reddit and here... I have an idea for this to be made better also. but later, after I cover all the gripes.

3. Instagibs, no hope, no contest: You've made it right now that if you attempt to "fight off" your lich in any capacity unless you're instantly fully right with your requiems you're gonna get instantly bodied and have a much bader than bad time. in that, you get fekking INSTAGIBBED and the lich gets stronger. I dunno if you're going to reason this out in that the requiems are also power words that if they're wrong they absorb it and get tougher or something, but instagib should NEVER be the answer. Instead, you should make it that you're able to fight the lich for large chunks of murmur knowledge and to temporarily disable them from attacking you while searching for knowledge but they should still grow in power albeit more gradually over multiple fights or failures. I have an idea for this later also.

4. Forma for years. But this is all kuva related. why not kuva?: AThe 5 forma required per weapon to max is a little steep. I think 2 would be more manageable, with 5 levels per forma instead, with each forma also providing some bonus properties based on the weapon. But these weapons are KUVA weapons, and you're really making us need to get more kuva inadvertently cause of the relics. So...why not make it so that you boost it with kuva? 😮

You expend say 5-10k kuva you unlock two levels and improve the power slightly (and the effectiveness of the overall roll which is no longer random) . Total 25-50k kuva you're topped off and your new kuva weapon is now a level 40 weapon (although needing normal forma if you still need space for builds after 80 points). These kuva infusions could also have some kind of inbuilt special ability like a syndicate power proc styled thing in them that unlocks to make them truly stronger than their originals. Kinda like... a new style of prime. A grineer primed weapon of sorts. But I'm hearing a lot of them are just side grades, we can't have that, not with what you put us through to get them, much less the whole collection. Please think of us. :<

5. buff rewards for hunting thralls: I can solve this with one of my ideas, but right now the thrall missions don't have rewards within them other than the thrall intel, which is right now a very long grind. But I know this is meant to be longer term content you get mad with, and so instead it needs to be seen not as a slog, but just another form of the happy grind. The missions could be given completion rewards. The thralls could drop some rare bits making them walking caches. The drops within the missions could also be scaled as the missions are anywhere from 75-125 level depending on lich level but are still kinda meh. There are many things you can do to make this not just nifty but great. Don't be afraid to reward the player. we can only play for so long, but we will play for longer if we feel rewarded, either with proper challenge, cool gameplay, shinies, or better.

6. Relics? Relics again? And consumeable requiems? : Couldn't you have come up with something a touch better than more relics? sure don't fix whats not broke, but why not something better? The requiems having 3 charges is "so-so". It could be made workable within another idea which is more contained within the kuva and kuva lich hunting system itself rather than off on it's own in void fissures. All the contained rewards are good, but they should be brought into things that people want to be doing. Again, rewards and also not recycling content for the sake of extension. But if you truly want to keep using relics, they could be improved to be a bit more varied in acquisition. As this feels like just a reason to make people play kuva siphons/floods rather than just improving them from the get go to bring them in line with other forms of kuva farm like kuva survival and disruption.

 

My ideas for new or better systems than the existing ones.

Liches, fighting liches, leveling liches, getting the perfect gun or just having fun between "friends".

Kuva Larvlings should take into account not just the frame but the damage there-in to plan their initial bonuses and stats as a lich. Two elements most used from your weapon and the characteristics of the kill taken into account to plan their spawning speech.

If you use a slashy glaive with fire and the attack slashed the larvling up. have them mention the fire or on it or being cut up. Make it take into consideration this and they'll have maybe slash or fire as a resistance or weapon bonus. In some case it could initially be a weakness, a phobia of sorts from their first death. But that would be somewhat liquid and fluid over the course of the liches life time bothering you. of course, throw in a little rng for some other starting stats and like quirks etc also.

In the likes of shadow of mordor/war it was often beneficial to the player to aim for a challenging boss who has many levels whether on purpose or by accident, as the resulting gear and rewards would be stronger, and you'd obviously get more character and feelings out of what you were fighting as a player. So the following are ways in which the lich can be made into less of a puzzle door lock which one shots you and more an actual immortal frienemy who's both trying to figure you out as much as you him.

Lich anger, and incursions:

The anger of the lich as of right now is good. as you kill their nodes, the lich gets angry the lich can show up. Make this extend to any nodes within the area of any of their influence nodes provided they're not made special by a mechanic like arbitration or fissures etc. Say they have control over pluto, if I do a normal mission anywhere on pluto, have them able to assault my mission. The lich (or no lich, depending on anger) with a handful of thralls and some forces nearby. But they'll also be distracted by the enemies also within the level. A show of their power trying to take over the system. If this happens you can fight them and farm the thralls, defeat the grineer incursion and give the lich a bonk and a slap for good measure if you're up to it, or you can run and complete the mission/extract.

Fighting liches normally, science/disrupting fights instead of fighting to kill:

when the lich is out in the world they'll comment on you and fight you like normal. but if your parazon is empty this is a raw fight of brains/brawns, two immortals having a quick clash as they do. Their health bar will still be segmented etc. Fighting the lich after each segment they'll be stunned like normal and you can go for a strike. 50/50 chance you'll hit it, or they'll do an execution. Fail it, you take some damage like as if they grabbed you normally and chuck you away, or you'll break that health bar and gain a large chunk of murmurs, I dunno, maybe the parazon scans the liches blood as you dig into them quickly and gleans some ideas or your fight lets the void whisper their weaknesses to you like with the thralls.

Defeat the lich in a raw fight like this and it'll once again take into account the damage you dealt to it the most (for each bar of health one element) and this will be added to it's data and when enough of this is taken into account they'll gain experience which can rank them up over a few fights. The elements depending on level will influence some of their existing stats making their weaknesses/strengths eb and flow with whatever you desire to fight them with at a time. Have fun with it. If you kill they'll poof and be shown as stunned in the lich menu and maybe have some silly "dizzy"/"tired"/"Revenge" lines to hit you with.

What this would mean is that they won't come after you for 15-30 minutes or something (probably more). Essentially an empty attack meter. During this time you can kill their nodes down to the last one if you want and be free of them for a little bit until they come back super mad and take over a bit more territory.

Alternatively during a fight you can just stun one of their health bars and run and just leave them fuming after sniping the thralls if thats what you want to do. When you leave a chance for them to then control the node fully afterwards happens. Incursions should obviously also potentially occur when doing the normal mission which is under the controlled territory but cause it's already controlled there'd be the idiot tax and no changes would occur finishing it.

If you get beat, like any normal incursion boss they'll either ruin your day or just bugger off and gloat. In this case, lich could incur you a much bigger idiot tax at the end and gain a lot more experience than he would if you beat him down which adds to his levels which can also influence his stats overall later and his spreading power when he's not respawning. Node might also get controlled if it was out in the wild of the same planet.

Other ways lich can gain experience would be through idiot taxing idiots over time growing his resources from controlled nodes and expanding that way. More nodes at the end of a day more experience they'll have gained when you come back, but compared to ACTUAL interactions like tax and combat, these gains would be very slow and gradual to take into consideration people's away days.

Fight to kill

This is where you've got your requiems all scanned up from fighting your lich several times or farming his nodes, now you've equipped them and it's time to test and get the combo. Remember, instagib is bad but you can instill terror in other ways. so instead lets give them a rage mode.

If you fail a requiem you get nullified of all buffs, dropped on your head down to 25% HP then the lich growls and gets boosted cause of the wrong requiem giving you a chance to think about running or heal and stand your ground. The enemies around him would also buff up temporarily, like as if he used warcry or roar. You can time it out over 30 secs or so but the lich would remain mad.

A mad lich would have a joined health bar and restore full health. You can try to fight him in this powered up state or just leave. If you get them all the way to empty they'll just disappear in rage and get improved experience from it in the same way as if you had finished them just normally. Get dunked on and the experience gain they get from you is even steeper, like it currently is with being instadeathed.

Based on the failed requiem the lich could also gain some powers from it temporarily making further fighting with him ill advised over the next hour as the lich would have these bonus powers attached to him. if you land a good requiem the next time you fight you can cancel his buffs and instill that grineer fear of death in him again. So if you got a good requiem at first, consider keeping it on so to purge those buffs and either try another set if you know all requiems, or leave them off and fight normally like before against him being buffed.

Eventually, getting the full requiem set will have much the same outcome as it does now. Each hit will blind and allow you to break health bars guaranteed and eventually he'll go down and you can save his soul or vanquish and get the weapon you yourself farmed totally on purpose by fighting your lich with certain weapons and abilities with the desired elements to make the tool good for you.

Requiems, mumurs and mods, oh my.

I'm gonna address the relics and stuff now. So I was thinking: We have all these relics from normal missions we've run collecting dust in our storage and most people who have all the primes only need ducats, traces or stuff to trade for plat etc. but even then, if you farm relics at lot, you collect so many you dunno what to do with them. You've got a list of all kuva siphons and floods in the alert bar now, this is actually kind of perfect. What if you implemented one more set of siphons. Kuva Siphon, Kuva flow and Kuva Flood. 25-40, 40-60, 80-100 and you make it so that you equip relics with you on those siphons optionally. Complete the siphon encounter itself you get your kuva and it infuses the relic making a requiem relic at random (1-4) guaranteed out of the relic you brought. 

Siphon takes lith and meso. Then Flow takes meso and neo and flood takes neo and axi. The relic also remains refined at the level that you brought it at, so you'll have it customly refined. During these missions each kuva drop that is busted should drop some kind of unstable or crystalized kuva 25% chance influenced by boosters but not looter frame influenceable. Gather 4 unstable kuva and you can go refine screen and refine a relic into a requiem relic.

Now people who do normal relics for farming sakes can keep their relics or turn them 1-1 into random requiem. Sounds pretty useful to me when simaris and profit taker keeps giving me radiant ones or other fissures randomly drop some slightly pre-refined ones.

Now just go crack your requiem kuva covered/converted relic and get a nice kuva cache/riven slip or your requiem mods fully crafting. (why am I saying fully crafted? well. thats another part to this).

The Kuva fort, now being somewhat important should be able to have it's missions relics converted to a random selection of requiem relics now also, more ways to farm means happy tennos. Especially kuva disruption or survival, chances for relics bigger kuva drops to make up for it. in the disruption or survival cracked caches or completed life support harvesters could drop the unstable kuva stuff from the kuva drops I made up earlier to refine existing relics.

Now this could be a way to get some nice loot from the relics and stuff. but whatabout those murmurs?

when fighting thralls they could have more abilities. I have noticed their ability to manic dash, possibly needs some simple elemental powers perhaps related to their master? dunno. But on killing them not only should you get a murmur but possibly also maybe normal kuva, my unstable kuva stuff for making relics, but also uncommonly some blackened slate. The stuff the requiem mods are etched on. Possibly also drop some planetary resources. But finishing a thrall mission should have a drop table that gives resources for clearing up lich territory. Massive credit/endo caches, Radiant relics related to the location (they can be converted with the raw kuva from the thralls in the mission, so it's acceptable) but also blueprints for printing new copies of the requiem mods at random.

You use the blueprints with like 10 unstable kuva and 1k normal kuva, some void traces from your general farming runs, an argon and a few pieces of the new blackened slate, give it an hour and you've printed a requiem mod. Not re-useable blueprint but shouldn't be super rare either since it's a mission finish reward and it's an alternate acquisition method from the relics which would now be far more farmable.

Downing a lich without requiems from my earlier suggestions or chasing off a maddened one should also release some kind of void whispers or something around the area and you get a cache with a spooky darkness aura show up that also can potentially have the requiem mod blueprints, a chunk of murmur progress or a bundle of unstable kuva, maybe rare chance of a riven sliver also?

That'd be my take on it. But, I don't mean to try to redesign your game for you. We all just want something a bit more engaging with less RNG I'd think.

 

I think I probably went too long, so I'm gonna go finish nightwave before it changes now. Good luck to yous when you get back Monday and potentially see this and the other feedbacks.

Edited by Darkmega18
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I really love this update with the kuva liches. it takes some time to find out the requiem combo to kill/convert a lich, but the weps r very strong, so I think its fair to wait for that final moment. The only thing that bothers me a little is the lvl cap of the lich. I understand that some ppl cant take on lvl 100+ enemies, but why not implement something like 1 nightmare version of the lich nodes on each planet with at least 140+ enemies once the lich is rank 5? thralls could also contribute more to the reveal of the required requiems on such nodes (or just based on their lvl) and ppl like me would be even happier with more difficult missions :3

The bundle with requiem relics seems good, but Im  not a fan of the big bundle that includes the requiem mods. feels a bit like p2w, especially with the requiem relic bundle already in the market. 

the parazon itself seems like a good idea, but the implementation is poor imo. sure, sure, it might be a bit buggy since its new, but the finishers r just odd. why should I use a finisher with a different button when I can be faster killing enemies with just spaming melee or shoot again? also, the sound when some1 is open for a finisher makes me crazy. imagine playing something with aoe in a lower lvl mission and u hear that sound like 3 times in 10 secs. it would be nice to just turn it off in the options (or maybe I just havent found the option?)

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One of the major issues with the liches is they aren't really an integral part of the game world, they're just another system that you've got to grind and farm.

Optimally, Liches would be like raid bosses, or like dragons in D&D: They would have their own fortresses or lairs, which would be instanced mission areas that you can go into, they would slowly build their hoards of things they steal from the areas they control (credits, kuva, endo, ayatans, resources), and they would control their own armies with their own banners.

So you gear up and prepare, and once you're ready you raid the Liche's lair, slay him, crack open his treasure vault and take all his bling.

Maybe it will be this way when Empyrean comes out, since they showed Liches having their own capital spaceships at Tennocon. Maybe update 26 ist just a buildup for the big, gamechanging expansions Empyrean and The New War. I certainly hope so, cause on it's own The Old Blood is pretty underwhelming.

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55 minutes ago, HereticWins said:

Being forced to get instakilled by the lich over and over again is a massive downer. Not fun. Not fun at all. 

well I can survive the grab animations, and you only die if you use the wrong word or if you stay in the grab range, it's not that difficult to avoid, pls this is the first time that a enemy can stand against me, don't ask for nerfs.

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1 minute ago, PabloX732 said:

well I can survive the grab animations, and you only die if you use the wrong word or if you stay in the grab range, it's not that difficult to avoid, pls this is the first time that a enemy can stand against me, don't ask for nerfs.

It’s not the fight it’s how bad a random oneshot feels 

Grabs just need to be sped up and we’re fine 

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Overall: 

  • murmur discovery is slow, boring and tedious
  • The grind and RNG drop for Requem relics to grind and RNG roll  for Requem mods in combination with them being consumable is far too much, It would have made far more sense that lich lieutenants had a % chance of dropping requem mods and driving back the lich have a guaranteed drop. (I am reminded of what Jim Sterling says "you create a problem and sell the solution" e.g relic packs and lich bundle)
  • The only way to force a lich to leave a mission is to fail and getting killed on a trial and error system or covert / kill the lich we need to be able to force the lich to retreat as most party will now ignore liches.
  • Lich being able to steal anything from players if they control just 1 node on a planet is wrong it should be nodes they actively control and shouldn't be taking from alert/relic reward (stealing the Requem mods i need to finally kill it does not make this fun)
  • Lich node control needs to have more limits in place being able to control 1/3 of the star chart nodes and having them refresh constantly is annoying for players who want to limit there interaction with liches.
  • Lich nodes being lv60-100 doesn't offer anything as the rewards remain the same as the vanilla vaules and some enemies like sentients are extremtly problematic at higher level scaling for mid geared players
  • Lich ranking up doesn't seem effect anything other then there total star chart control.
  • Parazon mercy kills on anything not a lieutenant seems pointless as by the time they can be used a light breeze will knock them over (or a saryn spore just pops them) the% threshold for mercy kill needs to be higher 5-10% remaining health.
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On 2019-11-01 at 2:17 AM, GrandLibra said:

Requiem mods being locked behind 4 or so layers of RNG, and THEN being consumable is not acceptable. Please make them permanent items. I would rather not being stuck grinding out the same 8 mods whenever I feel like doing any lich related content.

Also the relics being buyable from the market, feels like an extra kick to face

Pretty much this.
The Requiem mods need to be permanent.

So far the process is like this:

- Go to a Kuva Flood mission = get random relic.
- Go to a Requiem mission = get random item.
And if you go to a normal Kuva mission add one more random chance to actually getting any relics.

So you go to a Kuva mission to have RNG of getting a relic, and if you get it then RNG decides if its the relic you need, and then its RNG if the relic will give you what you need.
Waaaay too much RNG for something that has limited uses guys, and having them on market just adds more sour taste to it all.
Don't go down the dark path guys. You may be our favorite developer but we are all still vigilant and on edge for stuff like these.

Edited by MaxCrazyDude
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39 minutes ago, PabloX732 said:

well I can survive the grab animations, and you only die if you use the wrong word or if you stay in the grab range, it's not that difficult to avoid, pls this is the first time that a enemy can stand against me, don't ask for nerfs.

By being forced I mean having to die in order to solve the puzzle. There is no way of solving the puzzle without dying. This forced death needs to be removed and replaced with something more engaging, creative and fun. In my opinion.

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6 hours ago, supernils said:

For people like you they should just implement a button in the orbiter which sends Kuva Kohm straight to your inbox, no hassle. So you can skip all the nasty "grind" (7 hours lol) and get straight to the reward. And *@##&#036; on the forums about lack of content.

What. Go back and read what i said, youre so far off from what i was trying to say

 

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Kuva Liches.

This is not the Kingpin/Nemesis system that you told us about in Dev Streams. It's supposed to be dynamic, interesting, not just a huge grind for a chance of a slightly different than the standard version of a weapon we already own or maybe if your really lucky an Ephemera? Really? an Ephemera? Do you guys actually ever bother to check how many people actually use them?

This isn't permanent content, it can't be, this has finite storyline written all over it. What happens when we have all the things? What happens when people get tired of grinding the same Lich for the same weapon over and over, grind the relics, open them, get the wrong drops from them, go and grind more relics and all the time the lich popping up to gently trash talk you. It's like being called out by a kindergartener. What happens when people get tired of this and realise that it's always on? That unlike PoE or Fortuna you can't just not do it because should you accidentally make a lich you are (at the moment) stuck with it.

I understand that we're supposed to grow to dislike, even hate the Kuva Lich, it's a Nemesis system after all, but for what reason? The only reason I can see to hate it is because of the sheer level of grind to unlock information you need to take it down and the sheer amount of RNG required to get the mods we need to actually finish the task. It can't be because it's a challenge, because you've been spoon feeding us more and more power over the years until there isn't any real challenge left in Warframe.

3 days in, and the forums are full of people complaining about the Kuva Lich system, threads praising it are hard to find because there's so little to praise.

At the least, at the very least it requires an opt out button for people who aren't interested in doing this. If we don't want to run PoE we don't have to, why are we being forced into doing this? This is not story line content, it shouldn't be a requirement in our daily play of Warframe, or, if it was, it shouldn't be so boring and repetitive.

Still, I suppose we could always buy the Requiem Relics in the cash shop, or throw 835 plat into just buying the mods in the first place. That's disgusting, that's EA levels of bad, you should feel ashamed that you even attempted to pull that trick on us.

An Unhappy Customer.

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I recently had a run-in with a squadmate's Lich in a Defense mission. Attacking the Lich (but not using the Parazon to attempt an execute) we stalled her a few times, but after a few cycles of this the Lich became invulnerable and just hung around the mission. Unable to do anything about her, the now-invincible Kuva Lich shot the Cryopod until we failed the mission.

I imagine this is unintended. Bugs aside, it would be really nice if we could do something other than die to get rid of a Lich in a mission, or at least have some way of preventing it from griefing objectives.

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The Kuva lich system, feels like it's still in a test environment.
It's like all the variables have been set to be sure players will be easily facing a lich.

Kuva Larvling spawn: High ( and sometimes bugged )
Kuva Lich spawn: Moderate
Kuva Thralls spawn: Moderate and limited by mission.
Requiem murmur: Long to decipher.

I think, in the final version of the system, it should be:

Kuva Larvling spawn: Rare - Moderate, on mission lvl 30-40+
Kuva Lich spawn: Rare and very dependant of the state of the Lich
Kuva Thralls spawn: Moderate - High, and in normal mission, not on duplicated node.
Requiem murmur: A little quicker to decipher, and, garanted that the one you decipher, is not among the ones you already know by your trials.

With this kind of setup, the "grind" will go unoticed, a little..
Because, you play the game like you used to, and, you decipher the requiem in mission that are in the territory of the lich.
So yes, high level thralls ennemies that spawn rarely in low lvl mission, and more frequently with the increase of the lvl of the mission.
And Thralls priorities the right player, they don't track and murder low lvl players in squad..
That way, the system is not an island anymore.

The way the lich kill us immediatly if we use a single wrong mod in the sequence, is not welcomed, it's not what the system that hyped us was supposed to be.
It shows epic animation of the tenno, finally beaten by something in the game, ok, we get it.
But there is no need to replace the way it's was supposed to be, to have that.
The Lich, in combat, is supposed to be able to kill us easily if we're not carefull enough. That's another reason why I think it's a test environnement setup.
You're testing what people don't want, to be sure to do the right thing by finally adding the real difficulty when you will edit the system in some weeks or months.
I really hope that.

I've eard people saying things like:
"Murmurs is too long to decipher, getting the mods is a long grind, we can't farm the liches."
What ?! Farm the liches ?!
Because it's warframe, all is supposed to be farm ?!
It's a system that's mean to add a change to the game !
The point is to bring a nemesis in the background, a thing that last weeks ! It's supposed to evolve and surprise us !
So it's perfectly normal that decipher murmurs take a little time.
What's not normal is that it's on an island ! ° °
I really hope it's a test island..

All that said, I've one suggestion that I've not seen yet..
But before that, I just want to remind you, that we were supposed to be able to kill the lich, the bad way. And the kuva reacts to take it away for resurrection, stronger.

So, imagine that:
You just created your lich, you don't know any requiem mod required.
You go do missions, on his territory, but regulars missions, because you search some relics, or mods, or Ivara blueprints, I don't know..
In the mission, there are regular low level enemies, lvl 20-30 etc..
And, "surprise", some Thralls, lvl 50 °° ( random value I can think of )
So, without wanting to "grind" the murmurs, you do it ^^
And with higher lvl mission, it's quicker, because more Thralls.
But then, one day, the Lich spawn.
It's rank 1, so, not so tought.
You empty his first bar, and you attempt the mercy.
It's not working, fine, the lich just throw you away, not killing you.
You insist, you empty the second bar, etc..until it's dead.
But of course, the kuva takes it away, to resurrect it stronger.
The mercy attempt, gives you murmurs, and confirm mods if they are right.

And it's here my suggestion is:
The Lich starts with 3 requiem mods needed right ?
What if, when the Lich reaches rank 3, it needs one more mod in the sequence ? And more at rank 5 or 6, and maybe another at other rank..
(Or maybe with a random chance at each rank up after rank 3)
With the mercy attempt confirming the right mods, and giving murmurs, it might not be as tedious as we might think.

The deaths of the Lich, and his resurrections, are important part of the concept.
It's because it keeps resurrecting, stronger, that it develops his influence, more Grineers are impressed.

For me, all the update is fine, but this Lich system really feel like a beta version, to see what doesn't please the players.
But, DE, please, when you do thing like this, tell us, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, IN BOLD °^°
Because there, you launch the update just before the weekend, a massive amount of players test it, and come to criticize, without trying to not be mean in their criticism, and it really makes me sad, knowing that it was a huge job to develop this system, and to separate it from other updates to come, just because the players seemed too impatient.
You try to add a real, challenging and sustainable content here, so please, take the right feedback about it, not the whining one.

Sorry if there are spelling mistake, I'm french..
Yes I take huge amount of time to right this kind of wall of text..
for the only game I care about 😗

Edited by Azvalk
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I think Kuva Liches have lots of potential.

My wish list going forward:

1) Liches have more appearances and power combinations. And if there are any warframe abilities that are currently not given to Liches... please don't leave anything off the table in future. Give them Spores, Maim, World on Fire, Razorwing, Bastille, Vortex, Molecular Prime, Miasma, Peacemaker, anything, everything. I want to feel like I am at risk of dying >:D

2) Let me have a way to see all the Liches I have ever turned to my side. maybe in the profile page, or on some radio in the Orbiter where I can give them a call to check in on them and here them taunt me for old times sake, then they say "sorry, just joking" 

3) Let the Liches have stats like "Engineer" "Gunner" "Bouncer" etc. stats, and these stats eventually affect them as members of your Railjack crew. When you play alone or have a team that's short of human players, you can use Liches (and the future Corpus equivalents too) as part of your crew. Engineers can augment your ship's HP repair and shield regen. Gunner can help man the turrets if no human player wants to. Bouncer functions as... the name suggests, any enemies that board your ship, they will help kill those invaders. 

 

4) If a team has 4 very upset and angry Liches and/or their Corpus equal after them. I'd love to see the 4 Liches or Corpus equals (if I'd hazard a guess, it will be Sentient-Zanuka-hybrid proxy) spawn together with an epic entrance, Avenger style. Except, you know, they are the anti-Avengers.  Perhaps one of them happens to be using some Wisp-like or Nova-like abilities, and that one opens a portal for the rest to walk in together. They're so upset with us that they coordinated their efforts to shut us down.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Killed 3 kuva liches, my short feedback.

Relic/mods farming - its not that bad, at least we get kuva. Gold reward should be build weapon exlius.

Blood stains looks really bad (quality) and sometimes its hard to say if the mission is occupied by kuva lich.

KUVA LARVLING - this should be 24h alert type mission, not rng (even if chances are high). Its very daunting when he not spawn, and at some point players would prefer to avoid this system.

Farming murmur? - its painful, my main issue is that we do missions that gives no rewads (only trash). Thralls should drop something extra to justify this grind, and it should be shorter. It takes too much missions to reveal one mod. I like grind (2k+ h in wf) but thats not fun.

Killing kuva liche - if we dont know mods, its pointless. Liche lvl should add something to the weapon - little dmg buff, bigger mag, anything. When we know all 3 mods, there should be 100% chance to spawn liche regardless of his "enrage meter" . (because the feeling of running pointless missions now is stronger - we know all mods so murmur is useless)

RNG - imo first time there should be greater chance of getting every weapon (just for mr), then completely random, for min-maxers that wanna farm those weapons for best stats.

My main issue is the time it takes to kill one kuva liche - its one looong grind whitout any rewards along the way, just one weapon at the end. Shortening it would help a lot, you could add timer on kuva larvling to balance it a bit.

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