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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback


[DE]Danielle
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Way too confusing and unrewarding.

I just converted my first lich (only because I bought the pack that included all the requiem mods).

Before that:
1. I never met the Lich before completing 4 planets worth of missions, 3 of which were from other players (maybe fixed?).
2. The territory didn't renew (fixed).
3. One of the Requiems swapped after I unveiled it. I'm just glad I caught the change before I actually fought him with the wrong one equipped.

As I converted him, he asked me "no hard feelings?" and got back the petty amount of stuff that he stole. That's it, for 4-5 hours of work (without even having to farm the relics or requiem mods) this is actually unacceptable.
I have no clue what this choice has resulted in and there is nowhere for me to see that I'm now somehow allied with this guy, but I've got a new Lich already. Even if he shows up to help in every single mission, let alone is actually useful, this was not at all worth it.

This is not only unrewarding as hell, it's a mindless and unsatisfying grind that brings nothing new to the game. It makes me want to play the game LESS, because every time I log into Warframe from now on and probably until forever, I'm going to have to listen to some lame joke or quip from a Kuva Lich that I have no investment or interest in.
Some people enjoy the Parazon executions, I think it's a repetative and annoying time waste. It wasn't that good in Doom 2016, it's certainly not better here.

On top of that, I got measly 3 forma back for the 6 I spent on the Catchmoon and a ton of other weapons (melee) that have all been nerfed into the ground.
This was not at all worth coming back to the game for, what a miserable mess.

 

Edit: Holy S#&$, the requiem mods have 3 charges? Really? I mean I didn't buy the pack for them, but if I knew that in advance, y'know if you'd bothered listing it anywhere, I would not have spent the plat out of spite. This has gone from cynical to exploitative.
I also noticed that the palettes are repeats of others ones, just a shade or two darker. Additionally most of the armor is just variations of the same.

I have to ask, are you trying to get people to hate you?

Edited by Smilomaniac
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I preempt this with saying I am trying to be honest and positive about this, but closest to positive I can be with any of the 4 main additions from this update is mildly less irritated over the rest of it. I have no intention of dev-bashing. Nobody makes a system hoping it will be received negatively. Everybody makes a system, applies their chemistry, hoping for it to be enjoyed by their community.

 

GRENDEL: You have to have completed every node on the solar chart and played Arbitrations for a minimum of 25 Vitus Essence or maximum of 75 to get the capability of playing these boring mod-less missions. No gear, no mods, no operator, Augments are allowed and I don't know if that's even intentional, and no enjoyment. 15minute survival, 20wave defense, 800cryotic excav. The missions are LONG. And a Long time investment with no benefit from your gear to-date. After watching a few streams go through the entirety of it, I have no intention of approaching it. I am not buying Grendal with my wealth of plat. I am not going to put time into getting the Vitus. I am not going to waste my time on those Long missions of trying to abuse game mechanics to get by to get BLUEPRINTS. You did every node on the map, played Arbitrations for a not-negligible amount of time, and played these Long Mod-less Operator-less Focus-less missions to get BLUEPRINTS for Grendal rather than the parts themselves. Cool.

My opinion: That's alot of my time with not alot of incentive to go for it. Getting a blueprint piece at the end rather than the part itself seems a bit insulting considering the mission length for the part after considering the leadup required. Just like Baruuk, but made me feel like saying something due to severity of it. "It's challenging to keep playing"

MELEE CHANGES PHASE 2: Flow is good. Animations cool. Alot of things in motion, play, and conformity FEELS BETTER... Until you start using it for what it's meant for.

Across the board, it feels melee is weaker. This isn't "My meta/favorites no longer do what they used to" this is genuine "Hey, I spent 3 hours in Simulacrum doing things I've been doing for years and, in my opinion with years of play and experience using this system, the majority of melee weapons feel weaker after the update,".

And heavy attacks. I say this not to insult or berate the developers, but to express my opinion correctly: Hell no.

Combo Counter. Useless by association outside of Blood Rush, which is currently the strongest melee mod in our arsenal. There is no reason for this combo counter to exist currently if not for Blood Rush. Why does it not increase our damage as it used to? Why does consuming it waste so much of my time?

I am expected to empty ALL of the CAPPED Combo count for a Single attack that Will Not Kill the new hefty enemy entering the room (Being what I assume the scenario would be that you would even consider emptying your combo for) and leave you open to interruption from ALL enemy influences and not affect those outside your 15degree of your front. Why is the range not exceptionally larger for a Heavy Attack? Why is the Single Lvl80 Gunner of the current purview not DEAD after a dump of a CAPPED Combo Count? Why, in most melee weapon cases outside of Glaive and Gunblades, is More Light Attacks by far more effective in all cases than utilizing the Heavy Attack system? Why is there a dedicated button to something that make me weaker, with so many lack of beneficial effects to the battlefield?

I do not want to spend several pages finding new ways to say "Why in hell would I use a Heavy Attack over Blood Rush" so I am forcing myself to stop.

Why do some of the Lifted effects make it more difficult to finish enemies? Dual daggers is the most obvious I can point to for this. Gnashing Payara.

Reach. Bump both mods up a meter.

Condition Overload. Dead. Not usable in most cases. You nerfed it 3 times in one update. Why? Cap it. Sure, fine. Not exponential, now linear. Okay, that's okay, fine. Also, we changed the damage calculation, now additive with Pressure Point. Okay... I will now unequip it from 90% of my melee weaponry that used it, not use status-melee weapons anymore, and have my melee weapon variation TANK. That last part removed the biggest reason I used it.

Suggestion: Don't empty the entirety of the combo count for a single heavy attack, as members of the community had already hoped you wouldn't do from the first dev workshop mentioning it. Lifted could be adjusted to attempt to maintain the enemy's current position rather than utilize existing Ragdoll mechanics. Keep CO Linear, cap it as you originally intended, re-institute the previous method it calculated into damage.

VAUBAN & EMBER REWORK: They're better. I've few complaints and one wish, Ember's 4 get a bit more damage. I've more incentive to use 3 and guns rather than 4 for clearing crowds.

KUVA LICHES: So.... No. No. Just no. I have no intention of delving into this system. No. If someone tried forcing me to, I'd prefer to uninstall, god no. This was, by far, the thing I most looked forward to this update... and now that I've seen it realized it is what I want to avoid the most. No. Let me see if I can articulate why.

I have to play Kuva Siphon/Flood(TIME GATED) missions for a 7.5%-25% chance to get a Requiem Relic I need for an 11-20% chance to get a mod that has a 3/8 chance to be potentially necessary to be one of the three CONSUMABLE mods I need for the Lich whom has a chance to have a weapon I either want for personal use or need for MR collection which has a chance to have the elemental I want which has a chance to be a decent bonus numerically.

Six layers of RNG on a layer of Time Gated missions with a layer of YOU ARE REQUIRED TO REPEAT PROCESS FROM BASE LEVEL due to the mods having 'three charges'.

I hope I articulated my annoyance properly. I say this with no intention of personally assailing the hardworking people who put several weeks of work into developing, testing, and implementing these systems... but my brain sees this before it and my immediate response isn't "I look forward to trying this new system", my immediate response is: Hell no. I have better things to do. I have better things to do than go beyond that and learn about Thralls, Territorial Control, or what happens when they steal things from you (Which can include your Requiem Relics). I am honestly.. genuinely... afraid to learn about those things because of the low low precedent I've seen from this update so far.

If the Requiem Relics rewarded a Requiem mod with every Relic, with addition of something else from its current loot table, that'd be a step closer to Not Terrible. Or if the Requiem Mods were infinite use, and repeat rolls on that mod from the relics would give a different reward would do the same.

Why, in the love of all that is holy to each individual on this planet, is there a layer of RNG on the amount of elemental bonus for the weapon from the Lich? I'm expected to roll the Lich for the right Weapon for the right Amount of the right Element if I want to reach parity with other players? The only way it would be worse is if we could trade them and poison the market more than your Rivens did. I thought I was here to play a game, not simulate a casino.

 

In short, as most would want:

Grendal farm is terrible.

I am actively de-incentivized to utilize Heavy Attacks.

Condition Overload was overnerfed. I will not be using it or weapons that could make use of it.

Kuva Liches remind me more of the Gambling in Video Games topic rather than Warframe Content. And that's enough to deter me from touching the system if I can help it... and potentially makes me want to uninstall if it's not addressed on principle. I joined Warframe April 8th, 2013... 6 layers of RNG behind time gates with planned obsolescence on the mods for good measure makes me want an end date to my time here. Please address the Kuva Lich system. Remove the Numeric RNG to the elemental bonus. Make the mods either more obtainable(Guaranteed drops) or less demanding(Infinite/Extended Usage).

Edited by NoLife
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Well, My problem is in the one and only Parazon's Mercy system.

 

My main is a Rhino prime with Arcane Ultimatum, so a finisher is my strong point in this build, and these are my problem with a new Parazon's Mercy system

 

- I don't know the exact chance of the 'Mercy Mark' but from my experience, around 5% ? 

- When it comes, Enemies HP are always too low for me, even at around lv 100+ i still can't pause my attacks, and yes i tried to dodge (Imagine with Furax Wraith with berzerker, and a ton of crits,) 

 

With these aside, I've come with some solutions you might wanna take a look at.

 

- Increase the chance of 'Mercy Mark' into anything past 20% seems fine and not too OP, IMO (1/5 chance to do a Finisher, hell i'll gladly take that, or if y'all feeling generous, make it 50% lmao)

- When marked, stop all the procs (slash, elemental) or 'Invulrenable' them to prevent them from dying and let them have a timer system, like, X seconds before the mark disappear. (2 seconds is a - ok for me, if you increase % of Mercy chance)

- Or return the old finisher system in.. somewhere between a melee 3,0, but nerf it a bit so it doesn't replace Parazon's.(like a kill threshold is lower or do only 30% of enemy's HP) but it must be pain in the arse to figure out how to use two finisher system at the same time so, this is only a suggestion to make Arcane Ultimatum and / or Arcanes that depends on finisher great again.

- Increase threshold of the mark, or tell us exactly where in the 'low health' could proc them (But you really need to increase the chance tho)

 

Overall, unlike my English language skill, this is a great update. I really digging a new melee system. Didn't have a chance to try them liches yet (even i heard it's too RNG, hell do y'all really surprise at this rate ?) 

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I want to be more surprised that it feels like Kuva Weapons are everything that was wrong and heavily criticized about riven mods rolled out into an incredibly tedious slog of regrinding "new" content that is actually just the exact same old content that's been in the game for years and people were sick of.

But instead I'm just surprised that after all this time of my lowering expectations, you guys still manage to disappoint me.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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Small QoL changes can make the world, I do believe that dying on a failed attempt is really just annoying, hear me out though...

But a little backstory first, it'll set the scene for why this would be a slight betterment.

So you're playing this new Lich mode, right? Everything is pretty swell, killing thralls left and right, having a blast! Suddenly your lich shows up.

So far, you've only died once, maybe twice due to extreme stupidity (happens to the best of us!) but here comes your lich.

Now, I dunno about you, but this thing died in 1-2 hit from my Secura Penta, weaknesses and such accounted for so it's decently likely to happen. You go for the kill with a combo in mind.... and you die. Failed attempt.

This normally wouldn't be so bad if the thing didn't suddenly do a counter and instant finisher you back...

So allow me to paint a picture, an enemy that would be about 70-100 levels at this point that goes down in 1 or 2 hits... and because you didn't have a right combo, it instead kills you with little effort, if any at all.

I'm not saying it's a "Terrible Curse" or some crazy thing like that, but I would like to continue on my merry way without getting squished like a rag-doll between a Bethesda door, honestly, the system is fine the way it is, but the dying for doing what the game wanted you to do is a little sour tasting... It's a simple fix if need be too, just maybe have some frames get dealt 50% of their current health or something like that, so you still take a punishment, but it's not instantaneous death... it just feels a little cheesed is all... Just a heads up is all, no bad intentions.

---

Other than that small nitpick, the system is feeling rather great so far! Not sure what the reward pool is like, but this is some quality content right here! Paired with the melee changes (of which I might go into further on a separate feedback post) for the better and it's a hella fun! I particularly like the way the enemy evolves, it really does add that whole "changing the loadout against you" sort of thing going on.

Also the fact that my First Lich was named similar to a character in a game I'm fond of kinda made me smile a bit, it's random chance, yes... but it's still fun. ;D

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TL;DR: The ratio of time investment to reward needs to be looked at hard and kuva liches need to be way more imposing from the get go.

I just fought my Lich for the first time... they're supposed to be difficult, endgame type bosses right? There I was pottering around clearing the kuva covered nodes and he says a little taunt, his health bar pops up but... I don't see him. He doesn't cut out a large presence like the wolf, just a typical grunt, he teleported a bit then went down in about 4 shots from my astilla. Stab with the parazon, he runs away and... do I do it all again?

Why? the kuva nodes themselves have no special rewards despite being high level and I've honestly had more difficulty in the past with the sergeant. What is going on here? All this grind to slowly unlock a sequence of words and eventually a semi-good weapon? Sorry but this is a meaningless slog.

I really want someone to say I'm missing something with all this because I had such high hopes. I also  want to emphasize that I spent almost 3 hours building up to this 10 second encounter, it feels like a slap in the face.

Edited by Ramflare
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Hey, I know this is just a first reaction before I even got to fight the lich, but I've so far done a bunch of kuva siphons only to get no relics besides the 2 i got from floods, went and scoured the lich's planet for a while and only managed a quarter of the bar for the first murmor thing, and am still no closer to really working out what exactly i needa farm for mod wise to actually beat the guy. 

That said the lich i got is trash tier, I'm literally gonna walk into the place, probably 1 shot him if i have the right combo, and then I dont want him on my side, nor do i want his crappy seer pistol. Doesn't particularly appeal to me farming for hours to get all this non-permanent stuff to fight the guy, only to receive something i never wanted. The seer btw is one of my least used guns. 0 kills. 3 assists. definitely not something i'd walk into a mission to fight that sort of enemy. I thought they were supposed to be tailored to us? Where's my lich with a kuva Zenith or a kuva cyath zaw

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I really don't like how the Requiem mods seem to have a "charge" system where once they are used 3 times, the mod is, I'm guessing, consumed and therefore you have to farm to get those Requiem mods again. This seems like an unnecessary grind, especially when charging 835 Platinum for the Kuva Lich Hunter Collection. I hope I'm wrong. I regret buying the pack with this knowledge.

Edited by DawnoftheWhiteFury
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 Gathering the murmurs is somewhat terrible.  If we don't need them and can still try to make the right combination for our lich, then maybe it could still work out, but this very difficult game of memory is messy and slightly uncomfortable.

 The murmurs seem to be too slow.  I would probably prefer double the rate of gain at least, but at the least it needs some adjusting.

 As for the relics, I have never been a big fan or paritcularly lucky when it comes to relics/void drops.  Get lucky to figure out which mission might give you what you want, or look it up on the wiki.  Farm that mission ridiculously to get a few relics.  Open them and pray, or get a share party and still pray.  We even have a refining system for relics to improve our chances.  Even with relics shared and refined to give best chances at what I am hoping for I can see 30+ relics go by and get pretty much the same two rewards over and over again through all the openings.  I don't get variety or luck with most relics and these are just a few more relics that are rare to get and a pain to open and get what we need.

 The relic system draws out the grind a bit more than necessary for anything.  Though if we didn't have something to draw it out, everyone would have already burned through every prime weapon and frame and would probably be finishing up their first lichs already.  There has to be something to slow it down, but I just hate relics.  Could there be a better alternative.  The riven sliver was added in, maybe there need to be ways to crush multiple relics and guarantee a specific drop.  Work out the almost guaranteed drop chance for a specific item, take like a tenth of that number and if we crush that many relics we can pick the item we will get.

 I really would rather just destroy a boatload of relics than get the same drop from a relic 15+ times in a row.

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I honestly don't know that I even want to start the Kuva Lich grind or participate in it at all. It's a ton of work for... re-skinned versions of existing weapons that are just power creep and even include the forma = higher mod capacity aspect of the Paracesis according to what I've read. So they're better than existing versions of the same weapon + get higher mod capacity to make the brand new exilus weapon slots easier to use and encourage you to replace your existing version of the weapon with this new version that needs to be re-formaed several times to max out. Extremely grindy and RNGtastic content, just for recycled rewards that are seemingly mostly just power creep and a way to stimulate platinum flow is essentially what the system sounds like. 

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Personally I think the charge system on the Requeim mods is a mistake.. I can handle farming them all, I can handle failing x number of times to kill/capture my Kuva Lich till I figure out the order, but it absolutely SUCKS that we have to keep farming to replenish these mods when the charges run out. I understand its not supposed to be something you do on a daily basis or whatever but even without the charges its still a decent grind to put an end to the Kuva Lich. I'm not a fan of how long it takes to grind the murmurs either but I feel like removing the charges on the Requeim mods is a great compromise. The relics will still see decent usage with people farming the weapon exilus slots & riven splinters and I'm sure there's some kind of way to make use of excess requeim mods via transmute as well.

Beyond that tho I'm pretty happy with the update. Nice Work.

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Well, i've got my Kuva Quartakk. And what exactly i wanted to see are some more stats varieties. As an example, Kuva Quartakk one variant could have new mechanic (when burst fire mode only while aiming), while other would be always full-auto with tweaked stats or don't have that full-auto mode at all (just like usual Quartakk), 4th variety would do even 8 shots instead of 4, but in exchange of all other stats. There needs more reasons to killing Liches that have the same weapon that you already got. 

Edited by Muxailo
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Quote

There’s nothing wrong with first reactions - but relearning takes time.

We don't want to relearn. We want it back to the old way. We want Melee 1.0. We don't want fractal farming. We don't want caps on farming.

In short, we want a game that works.

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The progress of the murmurs is too slow.
The requiem mods should be PERMANENT(or keep the charges but recharge them automatically after 1h;and no, don't recharge them with other requiem mods), if this can't be done then i want a refund on the 800+ plat that i payed to not farm them because it's tedious farm(kuva floods 100% but they appear very slow, kuva siphons only 30% chance....a very BIG TIME GATE).
The mercy kill is ok but the mark is too close to 1-4% of health so you don't have a chance to kill the target with mercy since your melee is going to kill the enemy before you press the use button.

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I think you've overdone it with the RNG. 

I don't even mean the looooong way to get to the requiem mods. 

My complaints are about how you get Infos about the lich:

Killing Thrall fills the info bar so slow you've ranked your lich at least 5 times when the murmur kicks in.

By that time chances are good you can't even kill him/ her without A-Rank cheese weaponary.

And then you've got to do this three more times if you don't have the right mods inserted in the other two slots, in the right position mind you... 

How about a more Mastermind™ attempt, where at least you get the info if the first mod would go anywhere, when not into the first slot. 

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Alright, so first impressions are done and I got a few thoughts to share...

Melee committing - Edit: the ability to switch back is indeed there, I'd just forgotten how since the introduction of melee 2.9999 phase 1. Lovely. ❤️

Parazon and fashion frame - Like others have already stated, I was a little disappointed that the parazon was given only one colour set regardless of frame. I am not one of the flock who swear to black and red and call it a day, all of my frames are uniquely coloured so it's practically impossible to colour the parazon so it fits everyone and that's disappointing since it's such an integral part. I hope that this will get changed. That the mod configs are shared is fine, less hassle to carry over changes but the looks I would prefer seperate please.

Melee combat in general - I like it, both normal and committing (not counting the inability to switch back), it feels good to play with, but I have one small caviat and that is sneak attacks. I used sneak attacking a lot in my gameplay and for some reason the prompt has now switched over from E to X which is a really awkward button to press in the heat of the moment. Could we please switch the prompt back to E so it fits with the regular flow of combat? It is a melee attack still after all. Edit: Based on some following discussion, having the option to customise the keybind for finishers would be nice to have, so you can choose either E or X (or anything else really).

Edited by Ulvra
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TL;DR Requiem Relics or Requiem Mods should be acquired through some kind of high level mission set or nightwave-esque challenges. Locking them behind standard relic rng is incredibly tedious, obnoxious, and discouraging.

I really like the idea of murmurs, requiem relics, and requiem mods, but after only a few hours into the update, I can already see how this can easily become just another tedious, obnoxious grind. The Lich mechanic thus far is absolutely stellar, and the characterization of the Lich is top notch. Voice acting, visual design, animation, and ESPECIALLY the custom colors and abilities make the Lich a foe you really want to fight. Having to sleuth/slaughter your way through their followers to figure out how to be rid of them is a fantastic idea. I think each murmur kill could contribute just a tad more to the discovery of the incantation, but the mechanic itself is fine. The problem I see is with the Requiem Relics.

There are 3 layers of rng to get through: Lich has random permutation of requiem mods, kuva flood missions give random relics, within the relic you actually need there's standard relic rng. That's all assuming you're grinding kuva flood missions and not chancing the 30% drop in siphon misisons.

Meeting your Lich is satisfying. Killing their followers is satisfying. Slogging through the mindnumbing rng of relics to kill your Lich is the most frustrating speedbump possible. The murmur mechanic feels like actual build up to the boss fight. It feels like steady progress. The requiem mods, as they are now, has a clear means of acquisition, but because its based on rng, it's uncertain. So there isn't a feeling of progression or achievement. 

I've only just got into the update, but I already now how frustrated I'm going to be if I've cleared enough thralls to know the entire incantation only to constantly miss out on getting the relic I need for the final mod. I think that acquiring the mods should be more like getting your hands on Grendel: a set of challenging missions for high level builds with a guaranteed reward. That would also give us the chance to delve more deeply into the lore of requiem mods and incantations. If that's not feasible, then it would be nice to have a nightwave-esque set of challenges you can complete to get a hold of either the relic or the actual requiem mod you need. You could easily match up the quotes of the mods with the themes of challenges you have to do to get them. 

After a few hours into the update, I don't see myself getting on everyday to try for the requiem mods. I don't see how I could possibly be ready to kill my Lich in anything less than a week of just grinding kuva missions then grinding regular relics for void traces then grinding my refined requiem relics. Rinse. Repeat. Ad nauseum. Doesn't sound fun, rewarding, or challenging so it's not something I'm going to dedicate my time to. I hope I luck out in the near future when I actually do decide to crack open a relic or two, but even more so, I hope the team will reconsider how requiem mods are acquired in the future. 

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Parazon mercy kills for regular units: Current implementation seems redundant for players who have kitted up warframes and weapons as the enemies generally get instantly vaporized from 100 - 0 hp in a split second. While I do see the red mercy kill icon pop up on enemies very rarely, it doesn't matter as a few frames later they are generally deleted from  the screen. While the bonuses from mercy kills could be fun, currently I don't feel like I will ever get to use them in a normal gameplay situation.

Kuva Lich Hunter Collection: 835 platinum seems a little hefty price to gate 7 color palettes behind. I think this would feel a little better if it was either split to armor & palettes collection or at least selling the color palettes individually.

Requem mods & Relics: Oh boy, where to even begin with this... To me, this feels like another case of the infamous Kubrow lever levels of monetization. Not only the mods themselves are limited use, but in order to obtain & use them you need to go through several layers of RNG - but on the otherhand you could throw in a lot of money to purchase them all at once (one time only) or you could throw in ~5$ and skip the first layer of RNG in hopes that the slot machine favours you afterwards and if it doesn't why not purchase few more? That being said, I think these should be either removed from the market entirely or the ingame way of obtaining them should be looked at.

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