(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Fiedra]

I'd love a way to temporarily kill the lich, like say if you don't have the requiems yet. Just having them retreat for the duration of a mission after downing them and not using the parazon on them for a certain amount of time. Having to get yourself killed so other people's liches can spawn is a little backwards if I'm honest?

[Abacrius]

5 minutes ago, Ramflare said:

Relic packs have always been available in the market, this is fine according to DE's philosophy of "pay to speed up". You still have to crack them open anyway. I don't think the comparison to "p2w entities" works at all here.

Maybe not with the Relics themselves, I'll grant you, but definitely the Requiem mods.

Considering the layer of grind on the mods, their integral nature to playing the game (all it takes is one melee attack to slowly eat your starchart one node at a time), and the fact that they are a limited-use resource, putting a full set of them in the Market, especially as a one-time purchase, is very much pay-to-win. Short-term, at least.

All it takes is bad RNG, and your game can be essentially soft-locked by the presence of a Kuva Lich on the starchart, especially in the case of low-power players, i.e. those without meta mods and builds at their disposal.

[Ducatto]

I have only 1 problem with new Lich system, there is no option to do something with duplicate weapons. Maybe some special trade option to trade Kuva Weapon for Kuva Weapon, or some option to cancel Lich hunt, to not waste 2-3h or more to unlock Kuva Weapon. There is always option to speed up little Lich Hunt, so even if ppl get duplicate, they will just hunt another Lich, but for now RNG in RNG is pain for many players, even ppl who got much time to play WF complain about that much RNG in Lich hunt.

[k05h]

As someone who enjoys spy I have seen that hacking has very distracting screen shake (parazon twitches) since the introduction of Parazon.

It used to be that hacking Grineer vault could be started with two consecutive "space" key hits to get the first two nodes. That is no longer possible because after hitting space for the first time the screen shakes and the second stroke of space get no longer registered. 

[sorcer3r]

Lich thralls should have a chance to drop requiem relic. Those mission would feel more rewarding then.

[SkgNovaLover]

Kuva flood drop doesn't work good yet. I did three missions and I got only one relic. I don't have an activated lich yet, cause problems to find Larvling ( it seems I have to farm him like an Harrow part ), so relics couldn't be stolen from the Lich. Plus every time I did a kuva flood, I completed the mission and the kuva extraction phase with success and no red enemy's squares at all. The strange thing is 100% drop works for certain people but doesn't work for the others, making their fight against Lich too much slower. I know kuva missions are a lot and they spawn frequently, but I think at least flood need a fix.

About normal kuva syphons, I did 4/5 missions and still no relic. But maybe I was just unlucky, like most of the time I try to drop something.

[Whiskered]

15 minutes ago, k05h said:

As someone who enjoys spy I have seen that hacking has very distracting screen shake (parazon twitches) since the introduction of Parazon.

It used to be that hacking Grineer vault could be started with two consecutive "space" key hits to get the first two nodes. That is no longer possible because after hitting space for the first time the screen shakes and the second stroke of space get no longer registered. 

I disagree.
I have no problem with get first two nodes by just taping space dunno I don't see any screen shake.

[Vox_Preliator]

I saw somewhere the suggestion to require us to use the Parazon on a downed Lichling to create a Lich, and I'd like to echo my agreement.  Regardless of how easy it may or may not be to avoid spawning a Lich when you don't want to, it's clear that it's a source of unnecessary stress for many players.

Also, I'd argue that taxes should only occur on nodes that are under the influence rather than entire planets with any influence anywhere.  This would allow players to clear off influence from important nodes (Floods, Sorties, etc.) reasonably quickly without having to annoyingly trudge through up to a dozen high-level Grineer missions that don't contribute to any other kind of activity to safeguard important rewards.

[IamLoco]

In case you (DE) are interested at all, one of the biggest German Gaming magazines released some pretty devastating news concerning the lich system.

The article says the liches are currently the biggest problem in the game and it´s frustration instead of fun. Nothing surprising if you read through the feedback here.

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/warframe-kuva-lich-kritik,3350790.html

By the way, the article is the first point in the google search results if you type in "Warframe Kuva lich". At least in Germany.

 

Maybe you got some German speaking people in your Q-team.

Edited November 4, 2019 by IamLoco

[Ikusias]

3 minutes ago, IamLoco said:

In case you (DE) are interested at all, one of the biggest German Gaming magazines released some pretty devastating news concerning the lich system.

The article says the liches are currently the biggest problem in the game and it´s frustration instead of fun. Nothing surprising if you read through the feedback here.

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/warframe-kuva-lich-kritik,3350790.html

 

Maybe you got some German speaking people in your Q-team.

or google translate it...

 

The basic concept of liches is great, but overall implementation is really subpar.

- lich creation ranges from "where the hell is that larvling" to "not again damnit!" on accidentally maiming one

- lorewise the larvling makes no sense, should be a kuva trooper or officer and spawn like an assassin or in specific missions / kuva fortress

- investigation of the lich requiem is unrelated to standard content, repetitive and boring

- lich influence expands too easliy and non interactively

- lich taxation got downright stupid with the tefth of kuva relics, sortie prizes etc. with no actual guarantee of getting what was stolen back due to persisting bugs

- facing the lich itself is disappointing

- failing the requiem and getting wrecked for no reason is bejond stupid and anticlimatic

- interaction with the lich is embarassingly limited to suffering its taunts on radio, wreking it or getting wrecked

- long term interest in engaging with kuva liches content is 0, the entire system feels more like a massive nuisance than something interesting at the moment

- kuva relics droprates are bugged as hek, with only kuva floods dropping them with any regularity, no kuva relics are dropping from regular syphons

- combined with the above the kuva lich pack in the market feels very much like an opportunistic cash grab

 

[Koekiewollie]

Some feedback for the Kuva Lich:

I really like the character design, music and voices. However, I'm not entirely sure about the grind for murmers which seemed quite a lot to me. I wanted to do this solo, but switched to public because otherwise it would take too long and got tedious.

Besides this I would make the following improvements:

• The Lich territorial grab should be reduced a bit. I felt that the Lich took too much controll of the map.
• A node cleared from influence should not result in your loot being taken
• Lich should be killable at all times with the parazon after getting his health down, however, if not done properly (wrong parazon mods) he'll die and ressurrect and be more powerfull
• Maybe it's me, but the Lich seemed rather immobile or passive during the fight. Make him more engaging.

In addition to this, I might have an awesome idea:

• When the Lich invades, he should be able to trap you and him in a barrier to create somekind of arena in which you have to fight. The only way out is by killing him or by getting killed yourself. Squadmates are free to pass through the barrier and fight along, but you have no choice but to fight or die.
• In order to not disrupt the mission for squadmates, the Lich shouldn't be able to damage objectives. Also the Lich should not engange squadmates unless damaged by their weapons.
  To prevent squadmates from cheesing him, the barrier should block attacks from the outside, but allow attacks from inside to outside, similar to the snow globe ability for example.
• When the fight is over, the Lich disappears and the barrier disappears and the mission returns to normal.
• When playing solo, the mission objective should pause (in an appropriate way) so you can focus on the fight.
• This method of invading, could also allow for invading in any normal mission, so you really get the feeling he is always on the hunt for you. However, he should not be able to spawn after let's say 20 minutes.

 

[Cegrin]

Just managed to beat my first lich yesterday, so here's my two cents regarding an 'easy' change.

Topic: Barriers to Entry

Part 1: RNG

The RNG Bottleneck has probably been brought up to death already by other players, because that's really the elephant in the room.  The flow of Requiem relics are limited and exacerbated if you need a specific relic.  And considering you need two uncommon drops,  it heavily encourages "Radshare" playstyle to maximize the chances of getting the desired pull on these rare relics.  And this is only further exacerbated by the fact that your Lich can steal the relics and void traces you earn.  This becomes less of an issue when you have less mods to hunt down (like, say, when you're refreshing your stocks), but as a barrier to entry it's downright brutal. 

Part 2: Knowledge

At present, there's really no "Introduction to Liches" that we can reference.  It's more or less assumed that we've got out-of game devstream/forum knowledge, which is not a given to begin with and will only get worse as we get further away from release date.  Can we really expect a new player six months from now to know about what was revealed on Twitch building up to that initial release?  Will a new player even know about Requiem relics or the requiem mods?  There needs to be an in-game explanation for all of this

Recommendation: "Starter Pack" Introduction

This obviously is not something that can be done quickly, but ideally I'd want to see an introductory quest which introduces you to the mechanics, like how the Glast Gambit introduces you to the Index, or the Silver Grove introduces you to Apothic.  And to get over that initial barrier to entry, I'd suggest that the quest streamline the process somewhat, ultimately including the player making/discovering a copy of each of the Requiem mods (probably damaged, with fewer charges), speeding them along to taking down their first Lich and giving them a proper sample of the system and lowering the initial frustration, as mod-replacement is a bit less frustrating than initial acquisition, especially if the player is keeping on top of that replacement (ie, replacing 1-3 mods instead of trying to get all eight for the first time). 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Cegrin

[Mursen]

I still haven't play much but I would like to make a suggestion that may be interesting.

What if like in mario bros every 100 coins give an extra life, I mean, every 100 souls (life essence or whatever lore wise would be) we colect with a mercy attack with the parazon we get another charge to one of the equiped requiem mods.

We could still have a maximum of 3 charges but this way you are promoting the player to play other modes, make it more inclusive to all the sistem. It would also not obsolete the requiem relics sistems completly, unless you play for I don't know how many hours a day, because you having a 300 kills between every kuva lich would be a long time between each one. So you would need to look for relics and mods the same but less often. Also the riven fragment is interesting enough. And instead of an adapter you could add an object to change the value or the damage bonus.

It doesn't need to be that stright forward, It could have some changes to fit the game, like: the number of souls needed (look at your data and find the magic number to make it not as easy but not as hard), having to mercy kill enemies in certain nodes or planets, change the mercy machanic to adjust this, etc.  

 

Just an idea, because mercy kills seems unrewarding.

[Tyreaus]

It needs opt-in / opt-out functions on a per-Lich and system-wide basis to help justify the current grind (which, even then, is probably a little too much).

E.g., if you get a Lich, you get a Lich contract item. Sell the contract, Lich goes away. Can get new Lich. Don't want Liches at all? Get a Lich guard item (for credits), which stops larva from spawning for you.

If you can shuffle rewards easily like that, then most of the grind is just to get the reward you want. It all becomes forward progress toward desired treasure. Compare this to the current Lich system, which is often forward progress toward trying again.

For example: my current Lich has a Drakgoon. I don't particularly like that weapon. So I get to go through this grind to get what is, for me, MR fodder. Problem: I'm rank 25 - I don't even need MR. What I get out of completing my current Lich is a chance the next one will have a decent stat on, say, a Dubba Stubba. That's a trash-tier reward for the grind I have to go through.

Now, replace that with "sell item, run Grineer, repeat" and my reward for the major grind turns into that Dubba Stubba with a decent stat. That's a good reward because that's what I wanted in the first place. Is it going to take me days, maybe a week, of on-again off-again grind? Sure. But the end result makes it worth it.

[coolkoekje]

On 2019-11-01 at 3:44 PM, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Melee as a whole has also lost its role as a good method of mob killing / scaling. Their damage is far too low even up front (Lex Prime oneshots thralls; melee takes about 6 seconds) A nice balance method would be to either make combo affect regular attacks again or uncap the combo count (12x is not nearly enough to kill higher level enemies).

rolling back the hole combo counter stuff would be fine 2

[Hirgandor]

is there a maximum of kuva liches you can vanquish in a certain amount of time? cause i have been looking for an event trigger in quite a few missions since i killed my fifth, and i seem to be unable to get another one.

[Oreades]

Kuva Weapons shouldn't have an MR requirement that is higher than the MR requirement to spawn a Lich.

 

I am sufficiently removed from the world of MR requirements as I have been MR 20+ for what feels like forever so things like this typically don't catch my notice but I was reading a post in another forum from a player who popinted out that they are MR 10 and the Lich weapons are MR locked to something like 13+? 

That just shouldn't happen. 

If you are "This tall" enough to get a Lich you should be "This Tall" enough to use their weapon when you kill them. So whatever level the Liches become available should be the maximum level of their weapons MR lockout. 

So if you can start getting Liches at MR5 (assuming that The War Within is the only pre-req) then the Liches weapons should only ever require MR5 and even then only that's only really applicable if they where tradeable which to my knowledge they aren't.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Oreades

[GreenestLizard]

So, I have yet to kill or convert my first kuva lich, but I got some opinions regarding the whole process:

1.- Its good to finally have more missions with higher level enemies that are not too long (like Invasions) or have too many tricks and buts (like Sorties). However it feels like an unneeded time-gate  because the whole purpouse of said missions is to kill thralls to give us murmurs to figure out the right requiems to use on our KL. The murmurs grow very slow and whatever objective the mission has seems more like a chore to get out and go for more murmurs. My suggestion would be to either lower the number of enemies needed to have a full clue (say 10-5 depending on how "hard" the enemy is) and also have them drop a tiny bit of kuva (I'll say why ahead). 

2.- As someone who focuses on refining vaulted relics before anything else it's nice to have something else to put void traces on. Specially now that we also will need to farm more formas for the new exilus adapters (and to switch some exilus slots...). However, I can't help but disdain at it when I don't have Void Traces and/or the Requiem Relics for the mods I need. Now I gotta go back to farm kuva and requiem relics and then go and open normal relics just to have chance of getting the mod I want/need... if I did got the needed requiem relic. My suggestion: make them need Kuva, not something like 3k for max refinement but something up to 1.5k would be nice. Also, having thralls dropping just a bit of kuva will help in refining requiem relics and give us a motive to go for murmurs instead of trying every requiem mod as soon as we get it.

3.- I have heard the extra damage that comes with kuva weapons varies between 15% and 80%... thats a lot for a game where every content creator goes around min-maxing builds, which is also made worse because turns out you have to give it 5 formas to get max experience from a single weapon. Also there's the whole "ranking" the KL and both seems to be systems that at the current time have no mayor consequence to the player unless they want to go for higher numbers. My suggestion is having a smaller possible percentage (say 20-55) and then have it increase with each rank the KL acquires to give a chance to getting the best possible weapon on purpouse (say, each KL rank-up gives an extra 7% bonus dmg, which then gets capped at 80% regardless of at which % it originally spawned, if the KL weapon has 20% then it has to gain 9 ranks to max the bonus dmg, but a KL whose weapon has 55% bonus dmg at spawn would only need 4 ranks)

4.- Finally, I didn't knew when I killed my Larvling, I did wanted to spawn a KL, but it would be nice if to do so you had to use the paragon on it like we do with the Thralls, that way if someone doesn't wants to spawn theirs then they can ignore the Larvling. Adding to things that could not be wanted, a toggle for the frequency of the KL dialogues would be nice, although I have been enjoying the lines from mine and I hope the next one is just as hateful as the current one.

[Silverton]

I'm a MR 27 player who until this update had every weapon, frame, and companion. This update makes me not want to play anymore. I have only summoned 3 liches and out of what 15 weapons I have managed to draw the same weapon all 3 times, I know have to slog through another 5 hours of murmur grind, while brute forcing the mods, all so I can switch liches again. I got to tell you if I did all that work just for a fourth Ogris to pop up idk if I'd ever come back and I have sunk 4500 hours into this game and been playing since Excalibur Prime left.

 

[hairyman4_]

I feel the grind for murmurs is a bit too excessive. Maybe add elite thralls that give you 10 murmurs which will spawn after a certain amount of thralls mercy kills. Also I feel the liches should do more, maybe they set traps on certain missions, ambush you when hacking or even attacking you on your own ship. I really love the nemesis system and wish more games utilise it and I really like your take on it 😀

[Cephalon_Baphoma]

Decided to buy the Kuva Hunter Pack only to realize its the only way to get the armor and colors... Why? And it gave me all the mods, bypassing the grind. Super fun wirhout the grinding, but probably would have given up by now without that pack. Never would have bought it if the armor was seperate. 

[Kalvorax]

finally started my lich..im already tired of killing a ton of thralls to raise the murmur 😐

Regarding parazon finishers, I love that the thralls are only defeatable via the finishers. However, it is VERY rare to have finishers activate on normal enemies due to the horde style of nuking the minions and the VERY low health req needed for the heavy/armored units which would make more sense to be able to finish them at any time (rng-based...maybe have a parazon mod that can up the chance of activation?)

[Tyreaus]

6 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

finally started my lich..im already tired of killing a ton of thralls to raise the murmur 😐

Regarding parazon finishers, I love that the thralls are only defeatable via the finishers. However, it is VERY rare to have finishers activate on normal enemies due to the horde style of nuking the minions and the VERY low health req needed for the heavy/armored units which would make more sense to be able to finish them at any time (rng-based...maybe have a parazon mod that can up the chance of activation?)

Considering the bonuses tied with Mercy kills, I agree a lot about the horde style nuking ruining that feature. It's also not mechanically helpful as an "instant kill" on weakened enemies, since most everything dies more than fast enough anyway and if you're at a level where they don't, you've got bigger problems than trying to land a Mercy kill.

What could help might be making them like thralls, in that they can only be killed via Mercy kills, but they 1. count as dead for the purposes of affinity / Nightwave / exterminate / defense / etc., 2. have a time limit, e.g. 5 seconds, after which they expire automatically, and 3. have a range limit, e.g. affinity range, outside of which they also auto-expire. That way, it works with "murder everything" instead of being overridden by it, but you can still safely ignore it and not lose out.

Also, IMO, the Parazon Mercy kill system is a nice way to diversify the murder-fest. Reminds me kind of like Doom 2016 actually. That said, there should probably be some more indication that (so far as I know at least) it grants invulnerability through the animation, e.g. an invulnerable health bar for the duration. Easy enough to discover, but extra indications like that never hurt.

[Test-995]

I think reward is pretty underwhelming rn, yeah we can get the weapons or get allies, but weapons is pretty mediocre and best, pretty weak, or at the point of trash at worst, lich ally is extremely weak, low duration, and actually annoying due to random freeze they causes, and random number weapons aren't really "sustainable", you only need one of best number with best elementas and wouldn't touch the content anymore after that.

So i'd say kuva lich should drop like few ten thousands of kuva (around 10k~50k), bunch of riven silver,(3 or more, more than 5 is great), and little credits (100k is enough), also maybe lot of normal resources(just for fun), would be actually fair for current grind.

If they drop mutagen mass/detonite/fieldron/forma at low chance (like 30% or so),  that's also great.

[Genitive]

It's only today that I noticed lich thralls are immune to status procs. Why? Why introduce another enemy that ignores game mechanics? Please make them vulnerable to status procs. If your intention was to make them more difficult to kill, just increase their health, but don't make them ignore CC-oriented statuses, like radiation.