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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback


[DE]Danielle
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Posted this under missions earlier but maybe should be in here:

 

So...Kuva Liches are just a grind for random weapons.

There's a running joke to winkingly say they're totally not stolen from Shadow of Mordor, and they really aren't, because there's just no substance to the mechanic. Part of the issue is that it's not organic at all.

There's currently a primary loop of:

  1. Force an encounter with a larvling, don't bother hoping you'll get one in a group, you won't, it'll did before you realise it's spawned
  2. Equip 3 requiems (if you don't have all the requiems here's where it's both a bigger grind and also very frustrating as the Lich can steal your requiem relics).
  3. Do Lich missions, because somehow in a game where assassins hunt you there's no random encounters with your Lich, or their minions)
  4. Get owned by your Lich until, rotating requiems till it goes blue or till you've killed enough minions that you narrow it down
  5. Either through guessing or more grinding kill your Lich for an extra 4000 mastery worth of not very interesting gun (some of them are fun and all)
  6. Avoid ever killing a larvling if you don't want your requiem relics or void traces stolen so you can have enough to fight the next Lich you do want to fight

 

So I know I'm not a game designer and probably a dumbass but this is much less fun than how SoM and SoW handled it, and DE are pretty well known for some not great implementation that they later refine, so here's my thoughts on how it could be better, more interesting and more organic feeling:

 

  • Be able to temporarily defeat your Lich, rather than just saying "that's mine, ignore it"
    • You should be able to force your Lich to flee, but they still gain ranks by "surviving" a fight with you, or even being 'killed' by you. What doesn't completely kill them makes them stronger 
    • Given unique Grineer are effectively immortal due to cloning, it would make their patter about being torn to shreds repeatedly more sensible.
    • Forcing your Lich to Flee or temporarily killing them gives a decent amount of mumurs
    • Forcing your lich to flee or temporarily killing them gives back apercentage of what they've stolen from you back (win back requiem relics/void traces specifically?)
  • Lich attacks at random, even on planets they have no influence on
    • Thralls too, but in smaller numbers than on thrall missions
    • Temporary defeat of your Lich in a random attack removes their influence from a random node
    • Excluding certain missions, obviously.
  • Lich may show up with some Thralls who are their bodyguards
    • You need to down Bordyguards before taking on the Lich
    • They'll interrupt Parazon attacks on the Lich and their damage output scales up as Lich health goes down, possibly also just give the Lich invulnerability.
    • Lich anger level increases chance of Bodyguards, with furious being a guaranteed 2 or more.
  • Larvlings are assigned to players and the player they go down on their knees like a Lich if killed by anyone else.
    • The Player they belong to has a time limit to finish them off once they're down.
  • More Lich attributes, and attributes should have a more tangible effect
    • Liches should gain more attributes as they level up
    • I've no idea why my Lich is a pyromaniac or what that means for facing him in combat. Presumably it should mean he gets more excited/aggressive against fire damage
    • I've no idea why my other Lich was a deserter. If you could fight them down, perhaps he's quick to call it quits and run away?
    • If there are effects like that, have the talking head communicate this to you. Have your Lich scream with excitement if the fire gets him...hot.
  • Converted Liches have a reasonable chance to show up and stop a failed Parazon attack on enemy Liches, saving you the revive and forcing the enemy to flee.
  • Converted Liches have an increased chance to show up when an enemy Lich randomly attacks?
    • Not sure on this, might make enemy Liches feel a bit weak if you've already converted a strong Lich
    • Perhaps only if an enemy Lich has Bodyguards (see above) and your Converted Lich retreats when the bodyguards are dead

Some of the above would obviously need new art assets/animations doing (especially stuff like your Lich stopping an enemy Lich one shotting you) and as I said, I'm not an expert, but I did play a LOT of SoM/SoW and what made the nemesis system fun was that things could happen out of nowhere. Difficulty could scale quickly and new challenges were added to the fight as it played out because a new Orc could show up and nullify part of your strategy. Being hunted by a nemesis should feel like a fight to the death, not "oh, leave that Lich, it's mine and I don't have the requiems for it"

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Engaging with any lich, regardless of whether you win or not, should count as 10 thralls; this would incentivize people to help others with their liches- currently; going pub has more against it than for it as there is no real benefit to helping others with defeating their liches aside from goodwill.

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9 hours ago, Endrogue said:

I had an Ivara neuroptics stolen and it wasn't returned when I converted the lich responsible, at least from what i could see, it wasn't among the restored items in the mission complete screen. I'm not very mad about this as I already have Ivara but others might find this rather pesky.

ui bug. check inventory.

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Well this sucks, I was doing the Survival mission in the Kuva Fortress to open Requiem Relics and we opened 3 relics, 2 Requiem I Relics and 1 Requiem II Relic, all radiated. When we exited the mission I got the screen notice reporting that to wait as the game information is trying to update. Once I got back to my ship I didn't get the Lohk and Jahu Parazon Mods and 1 Riven Sliver. I did get the Kuva for the mission along with the resources. I immediately went to the Void Relics Refinement panel and the mission did take my Requiem Relics. So I lost the radiated relics and didn't get the rewards.

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Firstly I want to thank you for your effort to finish this update. I can definitely see the potential.

Having defeated my first lich, I wanted to add my feedback regarding the entire experience in the hope that it becomes better.

I enjoy the mercy kill animations, but I haven't managed so far to trigger them on anything other than thralls. All enemies seem to die to fast to give me the chance to actually do them.

I can't say anything about the kuva weapons as I haven't had the chance to use them. I converted my first lich due to his abilities (carapace/iron skin, leash, stomp, teleport) and I haven't attempted to hunt down a second one.

The rest will cover my opinions about the lich. A TL;DR for this section should be near the end.

The lich doesn't appear to exist or act in the absence of the player. You can both ignore him when he challenges you directly in a mission and even in his own areas of influence. This can be easily observed as the only way for either to progress is for the player to attempt one of the lich missions. Moreover, ignoring the lich seems like a viable tactic when he challenges you and you don't have the proper requiem mods or you simply don't want to fight the lich.

Considering that the entire point of the Nightwave was that the players aren't the center of the world, this seems like a step backwords. This situation, however, can be fixed very easily by allowing the lich to expand his influence without having to fight the player, making the lich a greater threat overall as he will steal more and more resources, from more and more nodes. But this alone only makes the lich more annoying. This can be offset by allowing thralls to spawn in other missions as well, thus giving the player the chance to slowly progress against the lich.

Fighting the lich isn't rewarding, only a means to an end. There are two clear possibilities when facing the lich directly:

  1. You have the right requiem mods and try to find the right order. In this case, if you have the wrong order, the lich will straight out kill you at the first wrong mod. This isn't any fun. Especially because you have no control over it. Moreover, for this encounter, you only gain a bit of information about what order to use against him, while all of the lich missions will raise in level and the lich will get stronger.
  2. You are not prepared to face the lich. It's the same situation as above, except you get nothing. In this case you can simply ignore him, which truly detracts from the experience.

In both cases, having some form of reward may help encourage players actually attempt to challeng the lich. For example returning some of the stolen loot back, lowering the lich's influence or providing a greater number of murmurs.

A few outright improvement request are:

  • I'd like to see the lich employing lieutenants to help him manage his influence as he gets stronger. They will provide some ways to fight the lich and his influence. While the overall plan is to make the lich appear to be more life like, this may also take away some of the fun due to the extra work that will have to be done.
  • when you have uncovered all the requiem mods needed for the lich, you usually want to just rush him and figure the right combination faster. Having some assassination mission for this specifically may help speed up the final stages. Especially when you have had the first three attempts fail and you have to annoy the lich once again to finally kill him.

TL;DR: more possibilities to fight the lich, through influence, resources or murmurs would help; the lich should act outside of the specific missions

Edited by Halianst
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I'm still depressingly sad about the state of this update.  I did see Reb's tweet about hotfix tweaks, perhaps I'll be motivated this weekend to give it another try.  Probably won't spend my very limited time on weeknights after getting home from work even opening the game.  Hope to see the grind reduced, and maybe actually be able to fight a lich.  Unfortunately, I'm also frustrated by the weapon 25% rad, which again just means it's such a terrible design choice to make the elemental % random, and then ask us to forma so many times like the paracesis.  Very demotivated at the moment.  Not even looking forward to getting rid of him, other than to just get rid of him, and no interest at the moment (pending any balance they put in the meantime) with trying to do it again.

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Currently, there are two things I would like to eventually see for this system:

1)  Elite Thralls.  A pretty simple concept really.  On occasion (and potentially more frequently when your lich is a higher rank) Elite Thralls would spawn as opposed to regular Thralls.  These elites would be a slightly higher level, they would award approximately the equivalent of 3-5 requiem murmurs, and they would either have an additional ability or two beyond the simple mobility option current thralls have, and/or they would share the weaknesses/resistances/immunities of your current kuva lich (and maybe have the bonus elemental damage too).

2)  The option to fight previously killed or converted kuva liches in the simulacrum.  I'd be a nice way to show off past kuva liches to other players, plus, some of us find the fights to be pretty dang fun.  I'd be cool being able to replay some of them.

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Hi DE

I Love WF, don't take this the wrong way. Have grinded every frame & weapon all the way to MR27 and would like to thank you for all those hours I have fun playing the game. Do care about the future of this game, so just have to warn that this update has started to become eerily familiar to korean MMOs I left behind because of the grind.



KUVA LITCHES

Right now it feels like a convoluted way to pad out new content, which I'm not saying that was your intention, it just how it feels. Am not saying it takes too long to complete either ... since yes, if you powered through it, you can complete several in a day. (so its not about wanting every new thing *now*). What I am saying is adding grind upon grind to stretch things out often leads to boring content that's not much fun to play. 

Its grind for your litch > grind for requiem relics > grind for traces to radshare the relics > grind till you get the requiem mods > grind tons of thralls for murmurs > repeat till you get the proper order on your parazon > finally get weapon > reforma said litch weapon 5 times > pray to rngesus that you won't get a duplicate litch when you create another > repeat 13 times.

Like I said, its not the actual time it takes to farm for one, but rather the monotonous grind upon grind that just zaps out the fun in it. Sometimes, you can push a free player into 'paying up' more by making the grind more tedious, not necessarily making the actual farm time longer. Time can be relative. It can pass by quickly if you're having fun, or feel like an eternity if you're just going through the motions. Having that grocery-like grinding checklist feels like that latter. There was this certain game I played before where the devs said they will never be pay to win, but slowly, surely, inch by inch, they made the grind more and more tiresome and drudging ... until you can't really say it wasn't pay to win anymore, until they alienated their free players out. 

There's a fine balance of stretching it out and making your new release last with turning them into a chore rather than a fun game. Have played other games where getting a legendary took me months of grinding to get. It actually felt like an accomplishment after getting it, because of the challenging but fun trials I had to endure along the way. A lot of the steps in getting one of the kuva litch weapons feels just like doing chores. We could discuss other, more meaningful ways to extend the 'life' of new content for the older players. Good games would know how to drip-feed meaningful carrots along the way to a long term goal, to keep it fun. 



VAUBAN

Once my most used frame, now 2nd. Train-man's rework has been a mixed bag. While I do appreciate It, feels that there are a couple of more tweaks needed to make him up to par with other frames. First one is casting speed and animations, then the decision to strip defenses per 'tick'.  It makes him sluggish and slow. Even creating 4 tesla balls is a long charge. To illustrate his 'ideal combo': 

Wait for an extremely long throw animation > wait for ball to drop and become bastille > have tea while bastille strips away enemy defense per second  > collapse to vortex while calling photon laser > have coffee while waiting for said laser > wait for blast to get loot > run after the rest of your team already 3 rooms ahead.

And yes, that was with Natural Talent on.


So maybe perhaps he would fare better in Static location missions.
On defense:
hey vauban! what are you doing with those vortexes? enemies are getting caught up on the railing and can't reach to us fast. we're speed farming materials here!

In survival, camping a spot:
hey vauban! what are you doing with those vortexes, enemies are getting caught up in the walls and can't reach us quickly enough to get life support!

 

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The Parazon finishers are way too rare, despite some "opportunities" being given. I constantly hear that slashing sound, that is supposed to indicate an enemy is eligible for a Parazon kill, but I never get to actually do it, because they simply die too fast from other sources, specially teammates that are blasting everything apart right next to me.

I've seen somebody else say this, but the Parazon system is definitely not even close to being worth replacing Daggers + Covert Lethality. I understand, you don't want us to one-shot any enemy at will. But you have to acknowledge the parazon simply stays too far behind in functionality.

It was said Covert Lethality was getting removed, but parazon kills were meant to "replace it" so it's not mandatory to use a dagger if you want that sort of functionality. However, from what I've heard, due to feedback on this, you guys decided to not remove Covert Lethality, but simply make it a finisher damage boost. Problem is, you forgot to make the parazon what you said it would be.

The only potentially useful mods for Parazon are the hacking mods, since you actually need to hack very often, and the additional functionality would be interesting on sorties, for example, where you have to hack with penalties. The assassin mods rarely see light at all... enemies just don't survive long enough to be killed by it, so it becomes a hassle to even get to do the finisher, and once you do, you have... a chance for a health orb.

I'd love to enjoy this system more, but as it stands, it feels like we lost something without getting anything in return. I can no longer use Ivara with a dagger and be reassured ill certainly kill this scary 3 feet tall eximus about to destroy me... instead I have to shoot him for a while, almost kill him with my gun, then have the chance of a finisher opening to happen, and finally kill him with the finisher to get my chance of a hard earned energy orb, magazine refill, health orb...  

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I want to one-hit every single enemy. I'm just saying, you make a whole system, a whole array of mods, gave it a fancy name... so it pops up once every blue moon, and when it does, it feels like I'd have been better off just finishing them off with my gun. It needs to be more relevant and more present.

I suggest maybe having a chance of regular enemies be open to parazon strikes if you are invisible. As in, as long as you are invisible, say, 5% of all spawned enemies will allow you to do a parazon finisher even before they take any other damage. Another possibility is tying it into status procs, specially physical damage, but maybe, blast as well... reason being, the enemy is concussed/wounded/bleeding and would be more vulnerable to a surprise attack from a sneaky tenno blade, not to mention physical damage (excepting slash) and blast are often not very rewarding, comparing them to, say, radiation, corrosive or viral. Obviously, not every single status proc would open them for finishers, but a percentage...

I think the possibility of using the parazon more often, without having to almost kill an enemy just for a chance of it to happen, will make it a lot more relevant for the gameplay. And if that was the case, the mods themselves will be rewarding enough, because it's actually something that happens once in a while, so a refilled magazine, or a chance for a health/energy orb, would feel like it was worth the effort to do the finisher, but isn't really something I can use to, for example, farm for energy while invisible as Ivara, or to spam my room-clearing ultimates. It's just a little reward that spices the gameplay.

Please take the parazon very dearly into consideration, don't just leave it as is. Obviously my suggestions are just feedback and are hardly going to be implemented, but at least consider doing something about this system, because currently it doesn't feel like it matters at all for something supposedly special like a fancy tenno blade it was supposed to be.

Edited by Slaytanic93
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My feedback: MERCY AND FINISHERS
google translate

Issue: Now you dont need press E to Finish a enemy. In one hand this is good for players who do not like to get stuck by the finishing animation, on the other hand it is bad for those who would like to use finisher, and in the heat of the moment miss the opportunity spamming E attacks.

___

SOLUTION: A option to configure a custom hotkey for finishers!
Now is mandatory use Mercy or finisher pressing X. This is good for those who don't like the finishing mechanism, but it's bad for those who like it.
If we can customize the key for finishers/mercy, we can please Greeks and Trojans
.


> Good Reason for DE:
By customizing the finishing key you encourage players to use the new mechanics.
example: I started using more consumables when I learned how to use customizable shortcuts like F1, F2, etc.


By customizing keys as well, you can:
> make some commands more ergonomic for your hand,
> make easy for laptop users who need more custom keys 
> if your X key get broken, you can use other button, chosen a new one on setting
s

>
My personal reason:
I would like to customize the finisher key to the same melee attack key, so I can use finisher like the old way as it once was (pressing E) and be able to use the advantages of MERCY mods bonuses.


Thanks!

Edited by --Blame--
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In my opinion especially with some of the information given by @rebbford over on twitter The Kuva Litch system is fine how it is there are some shortcuts that after your first litch are easy to work into your hunts like making sure you have a full set of mods in your parazon even if you don't know any of them. however thats not the grind.

The Kuva weapons level to 40 and there is in my opinion two issues with this.

The first and my major issue is that it cheapens the Paracesis. This item was supposed to be a legendary blade forged to slay sentients and part of that was the awe that it went past 30. in the future people wont have that, now they will be oh so its like the kuva weapons. 

The other and possibly the one with much more worrying repercussions is that each weapon takes 5 forma to fully level for mastery. There are 13 weapons. That is 65 forma and a bare minimum of 65 days to obtain them unless you pay. Now yes you get some from in game rewards and yes there is no actual benefit from mastery but as someone who is MR27 with less than 20 items in the whole game left to level Mastery is kind of what I have as an overarching goal.

I love the new content almost as much as I loved disruption when it came out and still do. but the weapons make me sad.

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I understand and expect grinding and endless farming in a game built around it, but until now that farming was always fun and rewarding.

The Kuva lich system is not fun.

Bashing your head against RNG to figure out the requiem mod order is not fun, it is just an extra tedious step.

Having to keep re-farming the requiem relics might be the breaking point for me. I don't like the relic system because it creates RNG based stress but I put up with it because I only have to do a bit of it every few months. Now you want me to engage in this endless re-farming relic loop that feels awful. I have to farm traces endlessly, I have to farm requiem relics endlessly and then I have to deal with relic RNG trying to get the items I need as a prerequisite for the least fun RNG wall in the history of Warframe all so I can get an RNG weapon.

I would be willing to spend twice the time investment to be able to target rewards and remove the RNG. I've been saying this since launch but now I'm at a point where the endless layers of RNG are destroying my ability to enjoy the game. Grendel takes a comical amount of Vitus Essence to buy and I love his acquisition model considerably more than any of the RNG based acquisition models because I know exactly what I need to do in order to get what I want.

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I've had the weekend to play out these Liches with my partner (We duoed pretty much all the content)  and honestly I'm pretty impressed with it all! But it does  need more to it, as parts of it did feel a bit lacking. But overall it was quite enjoyable, I do hope there will be additions to the system later! It's a good system/idea, but needs more to it. 

Kuva Lich

Obtaining Liches: Love the idea, a killable enemy that becomes the Lich itself? Nice. But having it start at level 20 missions? (Excluding the quest requirement) Seems a little unfair on new players given the potential difficulty. Maybe up the level requirement a little? Saturn being the general starting point seems a little too soon for it but that's just me and maybe I'm reading a little too much into the level requirement than the quest one. 

Appearance and Dialogue: The Liches look the part, heavily armored, undead looking, sporting powerful looking weaponry and such.  It's for sure one of the best segments of the Kuva Lich. I especially love the dialogue though there only seem to be just two voices right now? I've had the cold, calculating female one, and the jokey, aggressive male one. both nail it pretty damn well especially when their quirks come into play.  I'd love to see more armor pieces, more closed helmets for sure, but of course more taunts and voices. Two just isn't enough!

Lich Gameplay: Territory: Fighting the Lich is pretty fun and having a lot stronger general missions is nice too, gives me a reason to grind out some extra Specter blueprints from Rescues and what not since not only is there an extra challenge, but a reason to it as well (Thralls/Murmurs). The frustrating part is however is finding areas controlled by the Lich, the bloodspots ain't very clear, I had to up the brightness on my game to max just to make them out.  Other then that, it's nice to have a higher level areas to fight in!  Maybe make the node itself a bright-ish red instead of white when a Lich has taken it over, would help map out all the areas they own. 

Lich Gameplay: Taxes: I'm very on the fence with this one, I like the idea of a Lich stealing resources but there has to be a reason to it, sure it's incentive to hunt down the Lich a bit, but that's all. No reason for collecting resources or anything. Not to mention there should be things that the Lich can't steal, Blueprints are okay I guess but Relics, especially Requiem ones are a bit silly. Seems like a fix might be coming so that's cool! I'd personally love to see something happen to the stolen resources, maybe a event or something tied to the Lich on stealing a certain amount of resources collectively. Would give you a reason to keep your Lich around a bit longer instead of hunting them ASAP. Maybe instead of having power level determent how much area has been expanded, the amount of resources stolen can used instead? "Oh my lich is only level 2 and I've avoided fighting him for a bit but he's farmed enough resources off me and expanded a bit" Not as much as power and the level of expansion they give, but just a little extra. claiming new nodes while you clear already owned ones.  

Lich Gameplay: Combat: Fighting the Lich is pretty cool, Often we ain't expecting their appearance and it gets a bit chaotic to deal with, but it's fun to us! I do enjoy the different powers they use too, some have charges, some have armor or overloading, it's nice! I do like they generate additional Thralls during the fight, helps with the Murmur grind a little and adds to the chaos! Nicely done! 

Guessing the combination however is a bit grueling, and being outright killed for it is a bit much,I don't mind having a disadvantage for getting it wrong but trial and error and including our revives isn't really a good way of it in my book. but that's just me. 

Lich Gameplay: Power Level: I have no idea what the power level means, apart from them getting stronger and expanding into more areas, but I feel like there should be more to it. is 5 the limit so far? can it go higher? Is there a reason for Lichs getting stronger other then punishing you for missing a combination on the Parazon and dying? Liches are potentially powerful opponents  but right now it doesn't always feel it. I'd love to see them get really strong, dominating more areas, gaining more powers or extra abilities tied to their power level, maybe getting special buffs tied to their type too "Spawns with Extra Guards" or something like "Has Overshield" seemingly small things like that add to it. so when you finally take them down/convert it's more rewarding. 

Lich Gameplay: The Parazon/Murmur Grind: Most of this seems to be addressed in a coming hotfix soon but I do agree with a lot of people, the grind for murmurs is too much, and the symbols needed to kill them shouldn't just outright expire, maybe offer a means of restoring the symbols at a price of Kuva? (Given how we can farm a lot of it now)  each restore costing more Kuva to the point you'll have to replace it with the relics after getting to a certain expensive point? Just a idea. 

Lich Gameplay: Converting: Converting a Lich was one of the key features I was looking forward to with this update, Not because I wanted like a Shadow of War style army of Liches, but the chance of having a powerful ally join me for a mission or such was a great prospect. Right now they only come to you if you are in bleedout or close to bleedout, and even then it's only for roughly a minute or so, there doesn't seem to be for anything else, and while that mysterious stranger idea is cool... for the amount of time, effort and resources a Lich can require it's coming across as a small reward sadly.

I'd love to see more done with converting Liches, more spawn chances, maybe the option to spawn one permanently if your squad if short of a person or use a item for it, (but allow the host to tell the Lich to hold position or have the feature disabled completely for those who don't want it.) I'd just love to see my converted Liches more, earning them can be a lot of work, least they could do is put a bit of effort into my own missions! That's just my own piece but i do feel like all that work on both dev and player to go into the Lich, should be allowed to see more of it especially when helping you. 

Kuva Weapons Feedback

I own three Kuva Weapons so far, and pretty much enjoy all of them, the Dual Stubba is nice, having the Ice Damage is lovely for a viral build. Big big big big fan of the Kuva Quartakk, got one with a decent fire bonus so I'm pretty happy.  Honestly I love the weapons and their random bonuses on the Liches, it's a nice addition. Hopefully we'll see more weapon types in the future, Ack & Brunt, Javlok, Grinlok and so on. 

 

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My feedback: KUVA LICH - (LINES AND CONVERSION)
google translate

Issue:  Kuva Lich have few lines of speech, also people dont trust on AI to convert them, so the majority prefer to kill them and farm the weapon. 

Solution: Introduce and improve behavior lines for the Bosses, with more lines of speech according to your personality / gender, based one Grinner Lore.
Example:
• Kuvas addicted lich that has a drunk personality
• Lich dumb because of too much cloning, which has lines with very primary phrases
• Lich deteriorated due to too much cloning and that is ultra vain with its appearance
• Queens-loving Lich / Kela the Thain (or some particular boss grinner) who sees them as an IDOL
• Smart lich that has lines associated with Tyl Regor
• Lich who hate Steel Meridian and have lines roast them


Inspiration:
Shadow of Mordor, you have some Orcs who are drunk, others who are fearful, some who can only make noises and cannot speak, and some who are shy and proud, and this personality influences their names and appearance.

Good Reason for DE:
Despite the investment and effort, it creates the factor of exploration and fun among players, making the mechanics less cloying and creating more reddit and fanbase (memes) material.  It would also inspire players to convert their Lichs by having personalities that please them. Also personally, I believe the warframe lategame is CURRENTLY about having fun (with a lot of grind unfortunly, and a bit of a challenge) see the Fashion Frame? it just about fun. Hunting Lichs just for your personality can be a future hobby if you create a big library of personalities and different looks. 

Future Potencial:
implementing this personality suggestion, you can create personality-based triggers

Example:
> Kuva addicted kuva lich appears in kuva quests / appears in kuva fortress quests 100% of the time

> Smart Kuva lich has a 100% chance to appear in Uranus quests (due to its association with Tyl Regor)


Inspiration of this potential:
In Shadow of Mordor 2, when you kill an Orc's brother, the other Orc gets mad at you. So mechanics associated with personality would be cool.


Thanks!

Edited by --Blame--
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Left pretty much the same feedback in the other Old Blood thread. 

- I like the Lich system and think the pacing of it is fine if you got about it naturally. I think it'll burn a lot of players out that just focus and spend many hours a day purely on the Lich, though. Part of this is due to the how rewards work. 

- The reward system for the Liches isn't fun due to the RNG on weapons. It takes way too long to kill a Lich for the weapon you get to have random values. Please just normalize the values as this isn't an ARPG or a game like Borderlands just rains rewards on you. I also play mostly Titania. It seems a little unfair that my choice in frame is going to pre-determine my weapons to be Cold. I'd rather if the weapons have elemental damage that it's already determined by the weapon and not the frame and is the same for all weapons of that same type. 

I've been mostly enjoying the update. It's the rewards that really put a downer on it. I don't need them instantly or anything. The RNG on weapon stats is what bothers me. 

Please allow Titania to use the Parazon finisher in Razorwing. I get adding a unique animation for a frame that is one of the least played and considered to objectively be the worse in the game isn't a great use of resources. I would appreciate it, though. 

Thank you. 

Edited by Banette
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My feedback: KUVA LICH - (GAMEPLAY)
google translate


Issue: Feels weird to die to many times to test if your Requiem combination is right

Issue Example: Just like in the "War Within" expansion where there was only one way to farm Kuva when it was released (and that being something that is bad for the community), having only one option to farm murmurs is also bad. What the players are doing is just ignoring the Kuva Lich when they appears on missions, for the Boss to convert nearby enemies into Thralls to be able to farm faster, but I think there should be more mechanics to shorten the process.

Solution: A secondary way to know the Requiem sequence without die or ultra farm grind all the mercys on Thralls.

Example: Putting conditions on missions (as it already exists in nightmare missions) that accelerate progress in guessing Mod Requiem in exchange for a challenge, like Performing a successful spying on all 3 panels in a Kuva Lich-controlled sector will give you a murmur boost reward.  If the player misses this extra objective, he does not receive the boost, but does not cause him to fail the mission.

Good Reason for DE: Dying in Warframe does not give a sense of progression, although in the case of Lich, it is advantageous to die to make mods knockout tests require. Creating other ways to kill / convert your Kuva Lich encourage different kind of gameplay, making the game have a better experience.

Potencial:  Completing the extra challenges, there could be a Kuva Lich-specific line of speech for this situation, increasing immersion and also serving as a mini reward for the player.

Thanks!

Edited by --Blame--
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Love the update, thank you DE.  Also appreciate the constructive feedback already given by others.  

Weapons aside, it would be awesome to have a trophy that we can show off in a trophy room on the orbiter.  Imagine an articula skin that we get when kill/convert a Lich.  We already have ones for Eidolons and Orb bosses.  Plus we have a display case in the Operator room.  Why not have a whole room full of these 🙂 This seems like a perfect fit.  I know adding a new orbiter room might not be easy, so maybe this is something that the infestation room can be re-purposed for if there are no plans for it now (although I think DE said they have a plan for it in a dev stream). 

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After reaching mr28, i would say it is the first mr grind i didn't fully enjoy,

Overall, a great idea but somethings need to be tweaked 

My experience so far:

Lots of players who are not prepared for this particular content.. mr 10 - 12s

1, People afking with chroma on sanctuary elite (guys with over 900 eidolon caps),to max their newly acquired weapons

2 .Players not doing objective, which u have to do alone, or are lacking gear . 

 I would lock these Lich missions to be electable only by ranked weapons or frames.(like sorties) , may be even make them mr locked at 13 or 15.

3. Repeat weapons are a big issue, due to the grind of each weapon.

It would be nice to have at least an option that if u captured the lich with the repeat weapon it went out of the drop table for you.
Same as if u captured or vanquished you still got the ephemera.
or even allow these weapons to be traded.

Also the more weapons you have the less chance u get of getting the missing ones.
 

4, I should have same no of spawns of thralls in solo and on a 4 man team.

 

anyways, just a feedback from another veteran,

Hopefully we get some changes to this mode before new update.

 

Have a great week.

Thank you for the overall good work.

ps. BEST STEVE STREAM EVER! (This is how a programmers keyboard and mouse should be! )

 

 

 

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As many have said before me, the grind is just too much. I have 2 suggestions, Decrease the Thrall kills per Murmur by half, or allow thralls to appear in kuva siphon and kuva relic missions. This boils down to either a "Hunting thralls is boring and tedious, let's speed up the process" or a "players are already playing these other missions for relics towards killing their lich, let's allow them to passively hunt thralls while they do other things"

For the most part I dont mind the grind, but hunting Murmurs is just the worst. Meanwhile, I'm having the worst luck attempting different combinations on my parazon and failing. Running these missions over and over gets tedious, I'd like to get my hints faster if I'm running these missions, and failing to kill my Lich, so often. After getting 2 Murmurs, I had attempted every mod in the 2nd slot on my lich before I even uncovered the final Murmur...

Making the process faster also helps people get their weapons faster so that they dont have to hard grind this system to exhaustion. I'm not looking forward to any duplicate weapons...

But now, imagine players have gotten everything they need from Liches. No reason to fight them, nothing to gain. The Lich is still a nuisance and steals stuff from the player. Chances are, the player will still want to go through the process of killing their lich just to get it off their back and redeem stolen rewards. They wont want to stop what new content they're playing for too long just to get rid of this nuisance, at least make the process bearable for them.

This really is a fun, always present system that really keeps the players coming back more than anything else we've gotten in Warframe. It just needs less of a grind, like everyone has said.

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Current situation:

We have to farm requiem relics, to farm requiem mods, to farm the larva, to farm thralls, to farm the lich. All this should take at least a few hours for one lich.

Problem:

Relics and mods are tradable, so if RNG screws u, u can always resort to trading, which is good.

Lich weapons are not tradeable. So once u kill the larva, u find yourself stuck with a lich that is highly likely to have a weapon u dont want. There is no way to get rid of the lich, except spending hours to farm his thralls and spending your hard earned mods, only to get a weapon u dont want and cant do anything with it. What happens once u have say half the weapons? Half your time will be getting those same weapons. Imagine the horror if one ever manages to get 12/13 weapons or if a new kuva weapon is ever released!

Proposed solution 1:

What if, once we meet our kuva lich for the first time, a new option unlocked on the lich personal page allowing us to bribe him to go away? He would take the resources he stole from us, plus the bribe and simply leave. This could have an increasing price till it eventually resets (daily or weekly).

This way we could hunt down till the end only those that we are interested in, making the whole proccess a lot more exciting, but still RNG dependent.

Proposed solution 2:

Another possible solution is to make converting more interesting. For example, the lich would feel grateful for us sparing his life and could give us random rewards like kuva, chance for requiem mods and whispers and such. So even if we dont want to pay the bribe, we could still hunt down the lich and actually get something in the end.

 

Edited by kuryux
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Alright so I was fine with the lich enemies stealing rivens, resources, and some rare stance mods cause that's the whole point right? But WHO DECIDED THAT REQUIEM RELICS CAN BE STOLEN FROM YOU TOO! 

Let me put this into perspective if your lich gains control of the entire system or even half of it. You have a significantly lower chance at killing them because you get the relics stolen from you. You NEED and I mean NEEEEED these relics to kill them. How can you kill them if you can't grind the relics? well lets take a look at the market why don't we. HMMMMM. no. This one item is something that should be excluded from the tithe at all costs. ESPECIALLY if you're going to monetize relic packs.

EDIT: I realize they are tradable and such but that still requires platinum or the good will of other players which shouldn't be the crutch of a system.

Edited by Violet_Xe
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Lich feedback / bugs?

Currently on my 2nd lich and recently I entered an exterminate mission where both my 1st lich (Porg) and 2nd lich (Telo) appeared, I carried on with ranking up Telo by having her crack my back which is fine (hooray for free chiropractor sessions). Likewise, when it came to Porg reappearing I did not expect for their to be a need to still have his requiem mods equiped? I went through with the mercy kill and the first circle lit up. We carried on with sinking his health bar once more followed by another free chiropractor session. However, my UI glitched out and all I had on screen for the remainder of the mission was the UI bar for a kill switch which had a wisp like symbol in the first circle followed by nothing else on screen to get me to extraction.

I haven't recently looked at the patch notes but was their anything about still needing the previous lich's mods equipped for when they reappear? I did not put much thought into my lich reappearing after being vanquished the first time around and being left with words of his return. When he did return he had a blue waypoint for his location, is the blue waypoint not for companions and defense targets anymore? 

 

Parazon mods and drop table ranking

Following a post on reddit and looking at the drop tables, all parazon cipher mods are considered rare and yet, not all of them are actually of rare disposition? A majority of cipher mods are common or uncommon disposition yet require a  lot of play-throughs to even get just two of them. With the understanding that all things kuva lich related are considered endgame, I was expecting higher difficulty with hopefully less grind. Sure enough, the difficulty is there for liches and for missions going into the hundreds level wise, the aforementioned free back cracking sessions are great for showing progress. Likewise, the pathway for free players to obtain parazon mods feels highly steep.

Edited by THE-Micro-Cat
*cracking, i meant cracking.... 0-0
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With the current system people complaining "it's too grindy" (pretty much nonsense seeing some people are on their 8th lich just in 4 days) and seeing requiem mods being sold straight away in market, people are saying it's an EA move to make people pay money or pay to win, which is not something good for the long run if people start spreading false narrative about it.

My suggestion is remove the mods from the market and the bundle, there's no need to put everything that affect gameplay in market for that and it can be focused more on cosmetics that have no impact on gameplay.

That way, people will be on an even ground with no way to pay through the grind and start spreading false narrative about it.

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Alrighty, I take back what I said earlier: 

On 2019-11-03 at 12:20 PM, Keogu said:

I personally really like the Kuva Lich System

True: I do indeed like the idea of the Kuva Lich system. 

HOWEVER this system has some major flaws in it that were clearly not tested by you guys at DE. While you may have "tested" this system with your hacks and Dev powers, you (most likely) haven't tested it by playing it the way us players have to playing it without hacks and cheats. For us, there is no easy way to kill or convert out Lich without grinding painfully through level after level just to collect 50 murmurs to reveal 1 needed mod. 50 murmurs?! Is this a joke to you? 150 murmurs in total to get all the mods revealed. This is absolute bs. 

On 2019-11-03 at 6:35 PM, FartBoySlime said:

I know you guys at DE really like rng, but kuva liches is the worst ever

How many rng layers are this DE?

I now agree with everyone else complaining about the RNG layers and the grind of this system. My first Lich was fantastic. I converted him bc I grew too attached to him by the time his inevitable demise came around. However, my second Lich is where my "honeymoon" faze began to wear off. She was impersonal, and my god I wanted her dead ASAP. 8 hours later I finally got all the mods I needed. My 3rd Lich is where I have now stopped playing. Too much grind, too much effort and focus, too little reward, and it's not special anymore. Repeating voice lines? Sure, that only works for a little while then it just seems like you're not putting in effort anymore. 

I don't want to rant and make this super long, but seriously DE? 50 murmurs for 1 mod? Make it 15-20 for each mod, or add in a way that reveals it without us committing suicide to our Lich. Kuva Siphon and Flood are the only way to get the new relics? Well, that's gotten old pretty fast, hasn't it? Make it a Rot B and C drop in Kuva Survival and Defence as well. Give us more options. 

The melee changes? What needed to be changed? Combos are now more difficult to perform, and why have you made finishers bind to the interact key? I used to be able to sneak up on enemies and just hit the melee key once to do a finisher. Now I'm just ignoring finishers all together. I'm not moving my hand to hit another key for that. My last point, in Devstream #132 I saw the new Ayatan that was coming out. As someone with an Ayatan obsession, I was excited to add more to my collection. Your place holder of 25 Vitus was acceptable. I was willing to grind up Vitus to buy some in bulk...Only to find that when the update released that you upped it to 50 Vitus for Ayatan? Hmmm...I'm starting to see a pattern here...

I'm not touching those Ayatans at that price. Too much time going in for such little reward. I will no longer take part in this game until some things have been fixed. I simply do not have the time to put in anymore. Such a shame, really. This was once such a beautiful game. 

To those who still enjoy the game; That's fantastic! I'm proud that you can sit through this sh*thole update and still enjoy this game 🙂

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