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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

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*Update on the Lich Fight, it's still very grindy*
---------------

Sorry, DE. Complete Failure. A for coming up with a new time sink, F for making it so complicated, uninteresting and penalizing.

Kuva Liches are the worst content you ever have created. Why you can only think of grind as the only challenge for us? While the Liches feel elaborate in design, the process to fight them feels incredibly tedious and excruciating BORING.

That's no challenge or endgame, that's an idiot test! How much time are the biggest of the 27 registered losers willing to waste on an ultimately boring and unrewarding task?

END OF RANT - Begin of "constructive" feedback:

Kuva Lich "Hunt" has far too many random elements. The farming process itself isn't very challenging but very time-consuming. The biggest problem: there are no new activities linked to the farming process. You basically do the same as ever. Let's look at the steps of the whole Kuva Lich Hunt:
 

  1. Hunt a larvling in a L20+ grineer mission to create a random Lich - 1st Random Factor
    Finding that larvling and killing it is easy enough, you have your first Lich in no time.
    The question here is: how random is the creation? Will Liches you've killed or converted show up again before you have collected them all? The reward for veterans is the weapon at the end of the hunt - either for being good or more likely just a fresh source for mastery affinity or simply to complete your arsenal again.
  2. Gather intelligence on the three Requiem Mods needed to fight your lich - Hunt Thralls
    This takes far too much time. One mission in lich-controlled territory yields about a dozen thralls (forget endless missions, the spawn number is limited!). The info you gather makes about 8% of the total needed to reveal one mod. I estimate that you need to run 24-30 uninteresting and now even less rewarding (thanks to lich tax) low-level missions to gather all the infos.
  3. Farm Requiem Relics in Kuva Siphon Missions - 2nd Random Factor
    To get the required requiem mods, you need to farm requiem relics in Kuva Siphon or Kuva Flood Siphons. It's unclear yet how rare or random each of the relics is. If the drops are linked to certain mission types it still will be random which mission types pop up.
  4. Farm the Requiem Mods - 3rd Random Factor
    The mods are rewards from requiem relic fissures and the mechanics are the same as with normal relic fissure runs. To improve your chances, you need to find fellow Tenno with the same relics which will take a very long time thanks to required farming in limited (per hour) Kuva Siphons.
  5. *Update*Fight the Lich by figuring out the right order to place your mods in the Parazon... 27 possible combinations, maximum attempts needed 3+2 - low random factor but very grindy if unlucky
    Did my first run and saw the system in action. While in doesn't sound very hard on first glance, it's extremely annoying in the end. The Lich has 3 health bars, after clearing a bar you can attempt your combination of mods. 1st bar for your left mod, 2nd bar for the one in the middle, 3rd bar for the one at the right. If you fail a guess it's instant death. Side effect: the Lich's rage goes to zero (and he gets a bit stronger), that means you need to get him enraged again by doing lich missions before he shows up for your next attempt... that sucks. At worst, you need three attempts to guess the first mod, and two for the 2nd mod. The third mod you don't need to guess.
  6. *Update*Decide what to do with the Lich - kill it for the weapon or convert it to help you randomly
    The mods you needed for the killing have three charges and will lose one charge each on the last step.
  7. Cleanse - Repeat

There are far too many random elements in the whole hunting process while the ultimate reward is highly questionable. It's very obvious that you wanted to create "content" (I don't see any truly new elements here) that veterans aren't able to burn through in a week or two. In that you have succeeded. The problem is: it's not fun at all, it's just tedious in nearly every aspect of the process.

Suggestions:

  • Increase the percentage of gathered intelligence per thrall, double it at least - the farming for the mods takes enough time already
  • Increase the number of Kuva Siphons per hour - if you have to farm the relics there, you should be able to farm it at your pace (we Vets still step fast, melee nerf or not) or increase the number of mods dropped
  • While getting the right combination only takes 5 attempts at best, resetting the Lich's anger to zero is a pretty downer. Keep the Lich hot aslong as you actively fight in his zones.
  • I hope lich creation removes collected liches from the RNG pool when creating a new lich - if not, make it so
  • Liches can catch your sortie reward? You really know how to piss off, people ūüėõ Fix that.

Final words:

With 6,000+ hours Warframe (Steam, remove a week or two AFK-time, still a lot...) and over 1,000 bucks spent in the 6 years, you can count as fan of the game. I collected everything I got my hands on (missing only the Lato Prime in my collection), maxed out all focus skill etc. etc. You can imagine that I'm used to farming and tedious gameplay. You could say I'm one of the bigger registered losers. This is the very first time where I think "Nah, I don't need that stuff for my collection. Not at this price."

*Update:*
If you got the spare platinum, get the one-time-only 835 Platinum Kuva Lich Collection. It contains all 8 requiem Mods which will save you quite some time. Or get the needed mods from trade.

Fashion still is Endgame :cool: (R.I.P., Karl)



 

 

Edited by Toran
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Like others have said, the grind for these will be too much. Getting an individual item will be annoying, but when you are down to the last handful and have to keep running liches with duplicate weapons to cycle through until you get the weapon you need? Terrible.

Consider a system where we can dump a lich or maybe resell a weapon to some vendor for a credit towards buying a weapon we need (3:1)

I also strongly dislike this guess right or you lose mechanic. Why? Just to make me do the mission a potential of 6 times? This seems unnecessary 

On the bug side of things, when I complete a murmur it shows me 1 symbol/name but this doesn’t match what my lich screen shows.

 

 

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Journal entry: My first encounter with a kuva lich, Nov 1, 2019; 4:40 AM PST

I've killed my first Kuva lich... their name was Murr Bhomedu... sadly she had lost all her hair from cloning degeneration. 

a4235349ba.jpg

Positive feedback: 

I really enjoyed engaging in intense combat with this worthy adversary. Her troops would keep me on my toes, and would have me focused on task. *turns off immersive RP narrative*

Yeah the lich was really fun. It made most trivial missions a challenge, and it kept me on my toes. BTW we're gonna need more OP weapons above lvl 5, so uh please slow down on the nerfing. Seriously, these liches and their henchmen (the general level of the mobs they spawn) definitely necessitate pulling out our cheese builds. 

Great job on them overall, but I don't really understand the point on making them steal your loot...? Not unless they double your loot once you kill them. Honestly/genuinely/no sass... what's the point behind them stealing loot? 

Negative Feedback:

Not at all a fan of the "RNG Weapon" system... I don't particularly care for anything "RNG" so that part of the lich system seems like an unenjoyable & distasteful waste of my effort to me.... I really hope you remove the "RNG" aspect of it. I'd rather buff its stats myself with kuva, or with some other "affinity" or resource system instead. 

RNG is the reason I don't even bother unlocking, or selling my riven mods. It's a very distasteful and unenjoyable part of the game for me, even if riven mods have their perks themselves. I don't mind farming kuva, but I do mind wasting my time on gambling. I play warframe to get away from gacha games, not to further waste my time on another type of mechanic that gambles my time away.  

Bugs: 

1) Kuva lich wouldn't level up beyond lvl 5

2) Whenever I stabbed the lich with Parazim(?) equipped with the correct first mod/phrase, my UI would freeze and I wouldn't be able to see my ammo/abilities or anything else about my HUD... the only thing I could bring up was my minimap.  The "finisher" animation also wouldn't occur.... not sure if that's part of the lich fight though, or not. 

This repeatedly happened every single time, that I had the correct first mod equipped. (able to provide more screenshot examples)

81f9597b38.jpg

3) Sometimes I could keep attempting to stab the lich again, even right after I had already stabbed them once correctly (while their 2nd, and 3rd hp bars were still full) 

4) Sometimes the lich might get stuck in a weird spot, and despawn... or its "thralls" would spawn or get stuck in odd & unreachable places (this only happened once each, but it's possible that it could happen to other players)

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and for all your hard work launching this update and working on the new changes!

 

P.S. I converted the Lich on the picture. It would be cool if there was an in-game method to see which Liches we've previously converted.

Edited by Maka.Bones
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well i have one main crituque on the Lich system and i'll simply leave it here as link to thread i made already on it 

 

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I am hoping that it wasn't intended to allow our lich to steal the relics we need to kill it? relicstolen.jpg

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Way. Too. Grindy.

Murmur acquisition method is just plain bad - it's slow, it requires you to run missions with rewards you don't need or want. I'd much rather fight 1-2 extra-powerful Thralls for a Requiem word than 30-50 as it is now. 

Can't say much for requiem relics - every single Flood I've tried to run so far has bugged out on me and I have a grand total of 0 Requiem relics. Yay! (not).

The fact that there are 13 Kuva weapons and you have NO way of influencing what weapon your lich will get is beyond bad. It's godawful. Warframe is a gotta-catch-em-all game, and with the RNG it will take YEARS to hunt down all 13 weapons - even if you never, ever add another one. I can only pity the people who will, against all odds attempt to spawn a lich with one of the 2-3 weapons they're still missing. We really, REALLY need a way to flush the unwanted lich down the toilet to reroll it - a mission, a resource sink, ANYTHING. 

 

 

As for Parazon - when a regular enemy becomes Mercy-eligible, they should become invincible for 5-10 seconds, akin to how lich Thralls behave. As it is now, I mostly notice the Mercy arrow flickering for a split second as another mass of enemies dies. Warframe is a horde shooter, not a stealth action game. 

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I second the question of why they can steal the relics needed to get the resources to kill them.

Creates problems with bad enough RNG.

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I'm overall enjoying the update so far, but there are definitely a few negatives.

While I mostly enjoy the kuva lich stuff, the requiem mods are a complete pain in the neck. There are just too many layers of RNG; whether or not a kuva siphon mission drops a relic, whether or not that relic contains a mod you need, AND the uncommon chance of actually dropping a requiem mod from a relic. I'm fine with grinding nodes with my lich's influence, because it actually feels like I'm making progress towards a goal, but when it comes to getting requiem mods I lose motivation quickly because I have no idea how long it'll take to actually get the mods I need. Also, the fact that kuva liches can steal requiem relics just seems like a kick in the shins.

There's also the bug with defection missions, where kavor defectors can be kuva thralls, but you aren't allowed to kill them. My kuva lich still has influence on several planets because they hold a single defection node that I can't remove.

When fighting the kuva lich, there needs to be some indicator for the carapace ability, which I believe is just Rhino's iron skin. Shooting my kuva lich for 0 damage and having no idea how much armour it has left is pretty frustrating.

 

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I consider myself an average skill level player (MR24, 1000+hrs Steam playtime) and while not averse to grinding/farming i'm somewhat concerned on what i'm seeing/reading regarding the Kuva Lich systems rng and i'd like to add/support some suggestions.

1. Increase the Murmur aqcuisition rate from Thrall missions to a point where a planetary clear gives you close to a full Requiem Mod identification, this would mean 3-5 planets +/- depending on whether you want a quick kill/convert or going for that full level 5 Lich (there's an achievement for that!).

2. Consider moving or adding relic drops to Thrall mission nodes instead of Kuva Siphon/Flood missions exclusively. For myself i'm not that keen on Kuva Siphon missions and being tasked with doing these repeatedly for relic drops is making me decide to not spawn a Kuva Lich, (this is making me also not play my favourite lazy mastery node Helene, Saturn since I don't wish to create a Lich that effectively 'locks' me out of a planet until I can find the time/will to do Kuva Siphons.)

3. Possibly make Requiem Mods similar to all mods unless the former point is applied. Having to relic farm to get the right mods to have them get used up is a layer of farm too much especially when being consumed they only give some endo which we could just as easily get from recycling them, how about some Kuva instead? (it would fit nicely with the lore and also not everyone does Nightwave/Kuva Siphon etc. so it would be a reasonable accumulation rate for the less dedicated).

4. Remove the murmur system entirely and require the player to clear the thrall held nodes in order to confront the Lich, each confrontation will result in a mod drop along with Ordis gleaning information about which mod to use, mods are consumed upon a successful kill/convert and a sliver is rewarded.

5. Have player accounts trigger an internal cooldown that makes a Lich spawn once every 24-48hr so as to not feel like it's the only thing we are doing and reduce the inevitable overfarming of weapons leading to complaints of content drought/burnout.

6. Keep damage types randomised on weapons but keep the %damage range narrower, i.e. a weapon that maxes at 35% damage will randomly generate at 30-35%. Min/Maxers will still go after the highest values while those who get the lowest % won't feel shortchanged.

7. Player choice. Regardless of the events/quests that have taken place in this game one of the main appeals was that you could choose to get involved or not, Liches have changed this landscape dramatically and while I approve the effort to make it more personally engaging I don't think it will become so because of the mechanics currently involved. Now whether you've just finished the pre-requisite quest to spawn a Lich and find the prospect daunting, been converting/killing them for a bit and want a break or farmed them to death and have no need/want for them there should exist an option to not have them divert your entire game to stopping them. Here's a few thoughts of mine;

  • Lich spawns are imprinted on the host of the game and the initial Lich creation cannot be prevented, run away and it will pursue you to the next compatible mission node (calling you a coward of course) until you confront it. Solo or team kill won't matter, this Lich is yours.
  • During each encounter with your first Lich Ordis will gather information for later use (minimum 3 encounters required).
  • Subsequent spawns are host imprinted as before however now larvalings will enter a 'downed' state after solo/group defeat. Any player who has an active Lich cannot interact with the Lich at this point. Any player without an active Lich can choose to parazon-execute the larvaling and have it imprint upon them and become their Lich. Leaving the larvaling alive or in the downed stated and finishing the mission will have them pursue the host again to the next node possible taunting them in the process (Coward for running away, No guts for not finishing them off etc.). Host player can decide to prevent larvaling metamorphosis with a parazon delivered serum, see next point.
  • During your first Lich encounter Ordis gained information to deal with them directly resulting in an anti-lich serum which renders the kuva inert (blueprint would give 10 charges and use 1k Kuva as it's main component among other usual ones, this will actively drive players to obtain kuva). Only the host can use this serum on the 'downed' larvaling as it's imprinted on you from mission creation and is equipped as a gear item (run away if you forgot it or hope someone takes your Lich for you instead). As above any player with a Lich cannot interact with the larvaling and any player without one will only have it imprint on them instead regardless of having the serum equipped or not.

8. Finally i'd also like to suggest splitting the colour palettes and armour bundles from the mods in the Kuva Hunter Lich Pack (I have bought it without regrets but usually there's separate packs for these things as well as a complete version.)

Thank you for your time and all your hard work (don't overdo it!).

Edited by Gihei
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Parazon hacking feedback:

The initial interaction and hacking with terminals is too delayed. It takes longer to actually get to the hacking screen, leaving you more vulnerable--especially when playing higher level/harder missions. This only makes me want to use operator invisibility form much more, meaning, what was the point in creating this animation to begin with? Which is a shame, because it looks pretty neat.

The access speed (which was pretty much instant) needs to be brought back to how it was pre update imo, but with the new animation still intact.

Edited by Numerikuu
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Before i start, i want to clarify that this will be feedback where i only talk about the bad parts of the update, there are also good things i won't talk about here

So let's start by saying that the kuva liches are pretty underwhelming, not because they have low stats, actually they deal quite a lot of damage and have enough health to not get oneshot but also not too much so they don't feel like a bullet sponge the reason they're underwhelming is because they don't use their abilities nearly as much as they should, for instance my lich (Juzz Agg) has miasma as one of his abilities, currently he's rank 5 and i have yet to see him use that ability ONCE so i'd suggest making them use abilities faster, however to prevent them from just spamming things (like us) the liches would have their own energy pool with energy regen depending on their rank, and they would also alter between their abilities quite a bit, but if they have an ability like hallowed ground (or cursed ground in their words) they would try to keep it up so they always have the benefits from it.

Now, for one of the bigger problems, obtaining requiem mods, there's just too much RNG involved, 1st layer of RNG: actually getting the relic (1 guaranteed from floods), 2nd layer of RNG: it being the right relic, 3rd layer of RNG: getting the requiem mod and last layer of RNG: it being the right requiem mod, that's not mentioning you actually need 3 of those mods to kill/convert your lich, so here's a change i came up with that could fix that: remove requiem mods from the relics, move riven slivers into uncommon rewards but change the amount dropped from 1 to 3, 1 riven sliver + 1 000 kuva = requiem shard, req shards can be used the same way legendary cores are used on any mod, so fusing any mod with a req shard would result in whatever requiem mod you want the rarity of the mod used in fusing would determine the amount of charges (common = 1, uncommon = 2, rare = 3, legendary = 4 and riven = 5) now in order to make fusing req mods with more charges actually worth it would be that you could fully recharge your req mods with just 1 req shard, no matter how many charges are missing, so for instance you have 4/5 charges and use a req chard to recharge your mod, it would refill 1 charge, when you have 1/5 charges you could use a req shard to refill 4. Anyway that's my suggestion on how to fix obtaining requiem mods

The biggest problem of the update however are the rewards, they just simply aren't enough, killing a lich could reward you with a kraken that has +50% impact dmg of all things and converting a lich gives you literally nothing except what's basically a specter that randomly sometimes activates :l I'm not sure how the rewards could get fixed, possibly make the bonus damage of a kuva weapon stronger the higher rank your Lich is, and maybe when you convert a lich you would gain an upgrade of that damage type that could be permanently applied to any weapon ?

Alright, so that concludes my feedback, share your toughts :p

Edited by TronionX
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Ok, so I said it was kind of hard to farm Grendel parts, that is the missions they are in, but nope, with a good squad its possible and quite fun actually. But I do see one problem with solo gameplay in the future for other players that want to farm him. Maybe a lower level enemies just because of solo gameplay and because we have no mods on anything nor can we use the operator. Now that I have played it and farmed all the parts, I'm hoping the level of enemies will be a decreased a bit for future farming so that everyone can do it solo. Its a nice touch that its like old school gameplay just like in the beginning

Ok, now for melee. Is dope, I love it. You did an absolutely awesome job. Only one complaint is the disk of Zenistar. The 10s duration of the disk isn't good, please make it more, like before. All in all, super good job with the melee rework, I love it ūüĎć

And maybe we can get some new zaw types soon ūüôā

Edited by M3JA
MORE ZAWS!!!

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Could you remove, or at least provide a toggle so we don't do that spazzy animation while we're hacking? It's not terrible in corpus hacks, but it really throws off my rhythm with grineer style hacks.  I compared between hacking in my frame and hacking in operator and the difference was noticeable.  I didn't miss a beat in operator and the frame hacking seemed to hiccup, making me miss, not to mention the distracting flailing about my frame did.  Robocop didn't have this problem, neither should we.

The hacking mods on the parazon also seem mostly useless to me.  I hack quickly, usually don't slip up too often on the Grineer hacks and have no need to shock enemies around me.  Honestly, the only one that seems useful if the chance at auto-completing a hack on occasion.  It would come in handy during sortie rescue missions, I imagine.

Edited by xDangerCatx
typos!
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Melee 3.0 (2.9999+?) Feedback

Stance Attack combo changes - Excellent, much easier to execute, flows much better

Heavy Attacks - Currently not worth using over keeping combo counter up to maintain Blood Rush; damage and area of effect should be increased by several orders of magnitude

Range changes - Excellent, previously unused weapon types are now more competitive with polearms and heavy blades

Overall Damage - Feels generally lower than before against mid-to-high level enemies, mainly due to Heavy Attacks not living up to expectations and the extremely nerfed state of Condition Overload

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Straight-forward, not so-polite question: Is !@#$% RNG a remedy for you, DE, to make content "lasting and not too fast to bore players"??

Is every new mechanic that is brought to Warframe must have something with RNG??? Wait patiently for Kuva Flood and praise RNG the relic that is awarded is the one you need. Or whoopity whoop bend over and try to get it from Kuva Siphon. beginning access to new content with RNG. You didn't? Either hope Requiem Fissure will have pub layer who got the relic. Praise you get the correct Requiem mod, or see how four RADIANTED relics yields COMMON TIER rewards. Had enough of this crap when new PA arrives, and now RNG bastard guarding Kuva Lich mechanic... "What the balls", quoting LD.

Content locked behind RNG is the worst... I've been through ~10 relics, RADIANTED. And of course, RNG at it best, three relics yielded only common rewards.

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So far I've only had a couple hours with the update, as I spend 12 hours a day working or commuting, but my feelings so far:

As you are clearly being told by pretty much everyone - the RNG for requiem mods is going to be a pain point for your customers, especially as they're limited use.  I'd say, if you keep the grind/rng, then make them at least 5 uses.  That gives more time to see you're getting lower on one and run the rng tables of acquiring/unlocking/getting drop to replace a mod without getting stuck unable to defeat your lich.  

What I'm hearing about thralls has me worried - while I haven't had time to engage personally with this system yet, so take this feedback with a grain of salt, it sounds like the amount of work to just get to the point where you can even TRY to take out your lich by discovering their weakpoints is going to take far too long.  When I heard the dev info about thralls I figured like 1 mission/1 thrall/1 word/mod.  Not dozens of little sub 1% progress drops.  I saw them more as minibosses, sort of like in mafia games or something.  You take out the lieutenants to work up to the kingpin or whatever.  I think one mission should end up with 30-35% intel toward ending your lich, not 8-10.

I understand you want this to be compelling content that is repeatable, but in order to enjoy being repeatable, it has to be more reliably engaging.  Even if the destination is engaging, if the journey is too daunting/annoying, we won't take the trip to begin with, which defeats the purpose of the content.  

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The amount of thralls needed to kill for 1 clue is insane. I was able to kill my kuva lich with trial and error without unlocking all the clues.

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1 minute ago, niete said:

The amount of thralls needed to kill for 1 clue is insane. I was able to kill my kuva lich with trial and error without unlocking all the clues.

I am not sure if I am just imagine it or not, but after uncovering the first one, it seemed like it was much faster to get the next two.

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I mostly concur with the total reliance on RNG as posted by Toran above, plus heartily agree with murmurs needing way too many thralls.

Bugs seen (so far):

  • I keep getting the dreaded chat taking a long time to load when logging in to the game
  • Something's still wrong with requiem relics not being guaranteed by Kuva Flood

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16 hours ago, Feuershark said:

could you make the Parazon tied to Warframe in the Fashion department ? I want the Parazon to match the Warframe's color

You can copy frame colors

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Just now, AureliusVarro said:

You can copy frame colors

i think thye mean something like Mimic Shawzin rather than just color copy

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Here's my feedback: It's a fractal grind of a frankly insidious kind. Kuva Liches consist of at least four stacked sets of RNG. First you roll on the nature of the Lich - whether it will have the weapon or cosmetic you want. Then you roll on T5 Relics. Then you open those relics and roll on the contents within. Then you roll on the Kuva Lich by blind-guessing the order, which is going to be one of six permutations. And then, finally, you roll on the weapon you actually get since the stats on those are random. Indeed, I seem to have miscounted. That's no fewer than 5 RNG components with fairly low odds at every step, all of which could easily end up granting a throwaway item. Without hyperbole or exaggeration, The Old Blood now ranks as the worst, most abhorrent grind I've ever played in any game I can recall off the top of my head.

Here's my experience with it so far. I spawned a Lich with a weapon I don't want, so yay there. I ran I think 5 Kuva Syphon missions, received not a single T5 Relic. I ran a Lich-controlled mission and killed about 10 of his Thralls, which gave me maybe a quarter of one of the three runes I'm going to need to kill the Lich. And all of this on top of Nightwave's achievements, because I kind of want an Umbral Forma. Warframe no longer feels like a game. It feels like a job. I'm having to do mindlessly repetitive, tedious activities and still somehow time them around my main job responsibilities of keeping up with Nightwave. I'm lucky to have a real-life job which gives me a lot of free time, but I'm no longer convinced I want to spend it in Warframe, because this is no longer entertainment. It's a chore.

And yes, there's always the option of simply not bothering with Kuva Liches... Or there would be, if they didn't steal my resources. But assuming there existed a clean opt-out option, what are we really saying here? "Don't like it, don't do it" is only one step away from "If you don't like it just quit." And frankly, given the move towards "sustainable rewards," I'm already half-way there. Warframe is slowly becoming World of Tanks, which is to say it's slowly becoming a game I never get to actually "play." It's a game where I have to "work" in order to earn the resources needed to actually play the game, and I have only limited patience for that.

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4 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

this is no longer entertainment. It's a chore.

QFT.

We need to sidetrack TOO MUCH to interact with Kuva Liches. They really need better integration into the main game and much, MUCH less RNG involved. 

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Please leave the base damage of the Kuva Drakgoon untouched(or buff it) from the regular version, I love the Drakgoon for its high single-target base damage, not DPS.

Edited by --RV--Cola

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