(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Test-995]

52 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Now, the incentive to play with others is just not there.

Well there is one, increasing enemy/thrall count, or perhaps you could get someone with lich spawn and farm some thralls from it.

[Kainosh]

23 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

I'm sorry DE, but the whole

"Fixed ALL players receiving Kuva Lich Requiem Murmur progress whenever someone in the squad fails to kill their Kuva Lich instead (is only meant to apply to the player that did the failing). While all Thralls share Requiem Murmurs, the Lich entity itself is exclusive to a player. This also fixes receiving Requiem Murmur progress when successfully killing a Kuva Lich - only failure/testing of your Requiem on a Kuva Lich will grant Murmur progress."

was a bad change. Beforehand, the grind to get all the weapons AND ephemera felt doable. I also enjoyed helping others out with their Liches, getting extra Murmurs as my reward. Now, the incentive to play with others is just not there. I get nothing for helping my team with their Lich, and they get nothing for helping with mine. Nobody is encouraged to fight a Lich that isn't theirs anymore, and all those Liches hog up the spawns for your own Lich.

Hmm...I sorta agree. BUT!  Murmur is not the right thing to share with current lore. Each Lich is different and has its own Thralls... Basically means that only Your Thralls carry proper Murmurs for your Lich. 

And guess what? I have a solution. Sorta. Here:

• Liches also Cooperate when Players Cooperate.   They Combine their "Powers" and make stronger Thralls. These Thralls give Murmurs to all players in the team.
• Liches Spawn TOGETHER. Because when Murmur hunting, people come prepared...And for a Prepared team one Lich is NOTHING.
• You can try your Requiem on someone's Lich. This will kill you, but your Lich will not despawn. You will also Discover a Requiem for another player if yours were correct... Because we have 4-6 revives to share....so why not help someone?

 

Much better for coop that way, yes?

[Braneman]

My major problem with Kuva Liches atm is that converting them seems like a far worse option(for me) than killing them for their weapon. I converted a lich(Bugg Takoo) quite a few missions ago and I've seen them once, two rooms before the exit, and they just kinda stood around a bit and I left the mission, I only got to see them for as long as I did because an alarm locked the door. Which is a shame because I think he's a really cool lich, I pronounce his name as "bug taco" and he's got a tonkor and everything.

[Ikusias]

42 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Hmm...I sorta agree. BUT!  Murmur is not the right thing to share with current lore. Each Lich is different and has its own Thralls... Basically means that only Your Thralls carry proper Murmurs for your Lich. 

And guess what? I have a solution. Sorta. Here:

• Liches also Cooperate when Players Cooperate.   They Combine their "Powers" and make stronger Thralls. These Thralls give Murmurs to all players in the team.
• Liches Spawn TOGETHER. Because when Murmur hunting, people come prepared...And for a Prepared team one Lich is NOTHING.
• You can try your Requiem on someone's Lich. This will kill you, but your Lich will not despawn. You will also Discover a Requiem for another player if yours were correct... Because we have 4-6 revives to share....so why not help someone?

 

Much better for coop that way, yes?

This! This is actually bot very doable and very much in the spirit of coop gaming!

So far many of the recent activities have proven to be anti-cooperative, ok not preventing solo play, but in some cases actually encouraging it due to running in a squad being more hindrance than help seems counterintuitive.

[Ikusias]

Also would like to call attention on overall reaction to the most recent changes:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dsra4y/well_it_was_fun_while_it_lasted/

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dsmiv0/killing_and_failing_at_killing_liches_with_randos/

https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/dsmoec/so_after_de_makes_good_changes_they_instantly/

really congratulations to the devs in kneecapping cooperation in a coop game!

Edited November 7, 2019 by Ikusias
added pertinent links

[Enkou]

Here are my thoughts on how to improve the Kuva Lich System:

• Kuva Floods gives a Radiant Requiem Relic. Kuva Siphons have 50% chance to drop a specified relic.

The changes with Thralls having a 5% drop chance for Relics is great. This makes grinding less taxing but I'm sure has reduced the player's incentive to play Kuva Siphon/Floods. If each Kuva Siphon is known to drop a specific Requiem Relic, this could opt for some players to try their luck doing that mission if they need that specific relic. If Kuva Floods gave a Radiant Requiem Relic, that would at least make floods all the more worthwhile playing in regardless of whatever if the relic type is random.

• Incentivize helping other players kill other players' Liches

"It's a bug, not a feature." I actually enjoyed hunting Liches more when you could gain murmurs when my squadmates attempted to take down their Liches. It probably wasn't intended, but probably try to give it back even if it was lowered to 5 murmur progress or 2 per Lich Rank.

• Requiem Mod recharging

I'm sure a lot of people have chimed in their ideas of recharging Requiem mods with endo, stars or kuva, but have you thought about Fusing defiled requiem mods? One could fuse 3 Defiled Fass mods and get a new one fully charged, or fuse 3 different Defiled Requiem Mods and gain a random one (based on the selected 3) fully charged. It's not much, but it could out those that pursue Lich hunting for a prolonged time.

• Rolling Lich Larvlings for a specific Weapon

Any way we get guarantee what weapon before actually opting in on the Larvling we could kill? It could be drastic if the Larvling was already equipping the weapon it would give out (with the % elemental bonus still RNG), but what if the Larvling's weapon type mattered?

Like say, if the Larvling has a pistol equipped, then we would be guaranteed the weapon would be a secondary. If it was a Rifle, we would be guaranteed a primary. And if it has the one Kuva melee weapon equipped, then we at least have one fully guaranteed weapon to roll.

 

[P0ketchu]

Hello,

I saw kind of a low uproar comming of certain parts of the community, especially those who are spamming liches hunts.

There is a problem with players using their lich to (willingly or not) block the lich progression gameplay of other players. What happens is, during a multiplayer mission, one of the participants gets its lich to spawn, but does not proceed to try to kill it. The result is often a squad mate sending a message chat asking to go for it and most of the times the owner of the lich will give a glib answer, almost selfish ; something like "nah dont wanna", "just leave it be" or even the taunting "watcha gonna do about it ?".

So why does it bother people ? Why does those casual behaviors cause some people to just being sick of going multiplayer to farm their lich with other people ? Why are some others so happy to troll you with a lich you can't defeat. Well there are mostly three reasons :
 - One foe lich blocks other adversary liches spawns, so your own attempts at hunting it are prevented.
 - For the same reason, and since hitfix 26.0.5, you never get your chance to receive those 10 juicy murmurs at once (some dudes are even waiting for the squad to extract to go for their lich, granting them the selfish pleasure to be the only one in the squad to get 10 murmurs).
 - Last but not lease, liches are tough foes and they are sometimes used to bully others, like a radiation lich that just leads to a whole team decimated (may I recall that self radiation procs had been removed for a reason ?).

Where does all this lead my reflexion ? Well I think we need a stronger lich despawn mechanic, that happens even if the player is not killed by its lich. Now I'm no game designer so I couldn't tell you what might be a fair way to do it. Maybe a timer checking for how long the lich has not been attacked (again, trolls could just casually keep the lich alive this way), or a number of "occasions to try a lich kill" before it despawns, forcing a player to press that action button if their mates are attacking it to defend themselves ?

Again, the goal is not to punish players that don't go for those kills, but to give everyone a chance to try to kill their lich at a constant rate, and not having their (maybe short, maybe hours long) playtime made uncomfortable by players who are not willing to play the lich gameplay, yet are joining those missions on multiplayer mode by choice.

I was once told by one of these trolls : "if you don't want to be bothered by others then go solo" which in my opinion is not a good way to advertise MMO games.

Anyway, thank you very much for the feedback collection you might do on this message.
Regards.

[FartBoySlime]

DE can you just make ephemera an achievement already, please?

There are 7 kuva lich ephemeras along with 7 weapon element bonus for kuva lich weapons

Why not make it, lets say for 20 kuva liches with toxin weapon killed will grant you an achievement and give you vengeful toxin ephemera, the same applied with other element and its ephemera pair?

Weapon and other aspect on lich as RNG is enough if not too much. So no need for ephemera to be rng too, there is "challenges" on in game profile where you can put kuva lich kill on every element type achievement and reward there, please consider this @[DE]Rebecca

What is the point of "in game profile challenges" to exist when ALMOST no one pay attention to it because there is no reward on it

[Nasahul]

4 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said:

I'm sorry DE, but the whole

"Fixed ALL players receiving Kuva Lich Requiem Murmur progress whenever someone in the squad fails to kill their Kuva Lich instead (is only meant to apply to the player that did the failing). While all Thralls share Requiem Murmurs, the Lich entity itself is exclusive to a player. This also fixes receiving Requiem Murmur progress when successfully killing a Kuva Lich - only failure/testing of your Requiem on a Kuva Lich will grant Murmur progress."

was a bad change. Beforehand, the grind to get all the weapons AND ephemera felt doable. I also enjoyed helping others out with their Liches, getting extra Murmurs as my reward. Now, the incentive to play with others is just not there. I get nothing for helping my team with their Lich, and they get nothing for helping with mine. Nobody is encouraged to fight a Lich that isn't theirs anymore, and all those Liches hog up the spawns for your own Lich.

You know you have messed up when your co-op game is now more fun to play solo. DE needs to revert this ASAP. It's honestly kind of made me not want to even bother playing for a while until they figure this crap out.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Nasahul

[Test-995]

36 minutes ago, P0ketchu said:

Where does all this lead my reflexion ? Well I think we need a stronger lich despawn mechanic, that happens even if the player is not killed by its lich. Now I'm no game designer so I couldn't tell you what might be a fair way to do it. Maybe a timer checking for how long the lich has not been attacked (again, trolls could just casually keep the lich alive this way), or a number of "occasions to try a lich kill" before it despawns, forcing a player to press that action button if their mates are attacking it to defend themselves ?

Again, the goal is not to punish players that don't go for those kills, but to give everyone a chance to try to kill their lich at a constant rate, and not having their (maybe short, maybe hours long) playtime made uncomfortable by players who are not willing to play the lich gameplay, yet are joining those missions on multiplayer mode by choice.

Although despawning them is actually a punishment for those who don't wanna kills, unless they remove the thrall conversion.

Removing rad procs and maximum lich limit does work, if we are weak enough to get killed by them then that's a problem of ours, this is more or less "end content".

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

How to fix the system.

1 - Allow us to influence the weapon the lich spawns with by shooting it with it's non-kuva version. If i want a radiation Kohm, I should be able to use the right frame for the element and a Kohm on the lich worm to get it. For weapons with no preexisting variants, you can use weapons of the same family (dagger for a dagger melee weapon, archgun, sniper, etc).

2 - Give mastery only for the initial 30 levels, that way the five forma BS is optional and not mandatory on crap we will never use like the kraken.

3 - Make the Lich flee instead of killing you.

4 - Lower amount of murmur even more so it's less of a chore.

5 - In relics , switch the parazon mods to common and the common stuff to uncommon so we don't have to waste traces to refine em.

6 - I know it's coming, but we need the ability to merge a fully formed kuva gun with it's higher stat variant asap.

7 - Maybe give us a way to change our frame's elemental affinity, because right now it kinda sucks that you have to use a select set of frames to get the element you want. I should be able to make my fav frame toxic if I want to create toxic kuva weapons , etc... Or use the weapon's dominant element when killing the lich.

In the end, these changes would give more controls to the player on which gun they get, allowing us to farm god rolls of our favorite weapons while also allowing us Mr seeking players a much more pleasant acquisition and leveling experience.

Edited November 7, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

We need a way to dismiss a lich ASAP when it comes with a goddamn duplicate, the problem is not the duplicate per se, it's the time players have to waste farming murmurs, wasting requiem mod charges before trying to go for another spawn and see if they got a new weapon or another heffin duplicate.

Merging the weapons isn't the solution, the core problem is the hours wasted before reaching to that point.

Then once one has all the guns, they can keep grinding their elements & hope for the big buffs

Eventually charge credits for the dismiss part or whatever but not sure that the contract donation to someone is the way ( could be an option tho ) because what if nobody wants that contract ? You get stuck with another goddamn lich with the xxxxth copy of a gun u dont want when missing perhaps half of them still

Ps; and knowing u have to go waste a couple hours eventually between murmur farming, waiting for spawns, relic/void trace farming isn't really motivating when u know you have to go through that hell just to get rid of a duplicate

Edited November 7, 2019 by arm4geddon-117

[Zelmen]

Every time I come onto the forums now, someone has made a another new post about teammates leaving their lich running wild. Wouldn't a simple solution be if the team downs the Lich 2-3 times and the owner doesn't interact with it, the Lich just goes away. Or, teammates can stab it after 2-3 downs for a murmur and the target player gets nothing for neglecting it.

[DesertEagle1280]

Getting closer to something that makes me actually want to go back to playing warframe.  Still need a way to enhance elementals and remove RNG from that.  Bad weapons with no way to cancel/reroll is DEmotivating to actually wanting to engage the system.  I still haven't killed my first lich because the game has chosen to DEincentivize my time with a crap ele %.

[vaarnaaarne]

As numerous people have already said, there's a few things to improve upon:

1) The player has too limited control over the weapon the Lich spawns with. One of the good things about the Lich system is that you at least get to choose the elemental bonus type. I think it would be good to either allow some manner of influence over the weapon selection like we have over the elemental bonus. My personal suggestion would be allowing to trade in Defiled Requiem mods in some quantity (lets say, a set of 3 or 4) or a Converted Lich to change the Kuva weapon of the active Lich to one that you want.

2) There's currently no reason to team up, you only slow your own progress if you do. I think the solo progress rate is almost right (it's a bit on the long side, but not too long), but an incentive to team up for speeding it up would be a good idea.

3) I don't think that the randomized bonus level and its influence on stats adds anything to the Kuva weapons, it only turns otherwise desired weapons into MR fodder. The promised ability to fuse duplicates could aid with this, but honestly it would be preferable if all weapons had the 60% bonus and full stats and you instead had more control over what weapon a Lich spawns with and thus duplicates would be for different elemental bonuses.

4) Currently the Lich is basically a burst of intensive farming. The Liches could be given a post-defeat shelf-life by being able to be designated to use in other content not related to the system that is really about getting Kuva weapons. It has been suggested that Liches could team up, I would see this as a viable new content that could recycle vanquished or converted Liches.

5) I have not yet converted a Lich because there is little reason to do so until you get the full arsenal from them, and I personally don't really like unannounced allies coming in and cramping my style. Could we get an option to disable Converted Lich's assists to preserve my fragile ego?

[DesertEagle1280]

45 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

3) I don't think that the randomized bonus level and its influence on stats adds anything to the Kuva weapons, it only turns otherwise desired weapons into MR fodder. The promised ability to fuse duplicates could aid with this, but honestly it would be preferable if all weapons had the 60% bonus and full stats and you instead had more control over what weapon a Lich spawns with and thus duplicates would be for different elemental bonuses.

I still think the simplest solution to this is simply have the combinations take the better % bonus, or add like 5% at least to the higher of the two - so like merge a 25% and 27%, you go up to at least 32%, maybe even hard-round up to near 5x multiplier - ie 35% in my example. Then you get another Kuva Whatever that's 45%, you merge and it just stays 45% because it's already more than 5% better  If they're already working on merging it seems the easiest place to bake that in.

Percentages subject to balancing, but the point would be getting a lower roll doesn't become useless (you at least get + some percent from the merge), and you are guaranteed a decent upgrade (ie getting a 25% then a 26% and only getting a 26% out of the merge feels like an insult not an upgrade).  Also roll into this that once you max a weapon's bonus% that weapon/element is removed from the drop table - ie you have a maxed cold karak, you spawn a cold xx weapon lich, it's guaranteed NOT to be a cold karak because you get 0 benefit from it, but you could still spawn a rad karak if you wanted by using a different frame.

Edited November 7, 2019 by DesertEagle1280

[NeroAugustine]

13 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Gameplay wise, there is nothing fun about it, you are just punishing newbies for no reason, you get nothing from that change.

Getting a Kuva Lich should be something that happens to a player at least once.
I do think that the mechanics need to be explained a bit more, so players know that if they don't want one, they should slow down their killing, or not spam thier meta-nuke abilities. (which is really where it becomes inconvenient for the player.)

The players who would suffer the most, are players who are the most efficient at killing, not the noobs.
Many noobs have to aim, and put in effort. The meta players, who can just spam abilities in order to murder everyone are the ones who are going to have a difficult time not getting a lich, which is how it should be.

Again, the queens are looking for a battlefield where the larvalings will get slaughtered without a second thought. Nuke players or player who can kill dozens of enemies in seconds are the perfect candidates for this. Noobs, so long as the mechanics are explained, are less likely to be targeted. For example, I got my Lich quickly, but one of my friends had to make 4 different mission attempts, because she wasn't killing enemies fast enough for the Kuva guardians to send a larvaling in.

If reverting to the way things were punishes anyone, its the players who are more than capable of dealing with Liches.

Here's a better restriction than making it opt-out.
Make larvaling spawning related to Kuva Fortress location, the same way Kuva syphons are.

This way, a player who wants to avoid them, can do so without having to avoid all Lv20 missions.

Edited November 7, 2019 by NeroAugustine

[-Seems-]

The kuva lich system presents something unprecedented in warframe's history, a meaningful endgame grind that is repeatable and somewhat coherent. However, it's not quite there yet.

The process for determining weapons and % elemental bonuses needs some way for players to weight towards a weapon and bonus they want. I know certain warframe's guarantee certain elements but I am referring to the amount of % elemental bonus.

Some suggestions I have:

1. Give a quicker way to kill a lich without receiving their weapon reward, thus letting us sift through unwanted duplicates more quickly

2. Give the kuva larva some indication of what weapon the lich will have. For example a larva holding a regular karak will spawn a lich with a kuva karak

3. Have higher level larvae spawn a lich with a higher elemental bonus

4. Let us use kuva to upgrade a weapons elemental bonus, I mean these are kuva weapons after all right?

There are very few things in the game more frustrating than spending hours clearing a lich just to get another one with the same weapon that worse than the one you just got. Hopefully someone sees these suggestions and can improve the kuva lich system.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

So this is what I thought how the kuva lich system was going to play:

Alert like quest mission, accept or declines the mission (opt in), activate random lich, activates lich stealing on that player and lich influenced nodes for that player. Lich is located in a special assassination node unque to that player, the lich will grow in power and influence if that player doesn't kill them within a certain time limit (or fails the mission). That Player can invite friends to hunt or request a public assist to exterminate thrall nodes or assassinate the lich (additional opt in for more players). Weapon benefit is applied only from main player and only that player may kill the the lich. This removes the rng of lich birthing and appearance of kuva liches.

Finding the requiem mods and such could stay relatively the same... and maybe as an additional reward for helping another player with lich missions.

This what I initially thought how the kuva system was going to work, as an rng mini-quest.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by (XB1)Nightseid

[hrimgerth]

Please make vengeful ephemera tradable. Got another toxin ephemera on 25th lich. First one was on 3rd or 4th.

It's kinda bummer considering its chance to spawn with one.

[Oates_]

Killed my first lich last night. The initial grind for requiem mods was pretty rough, but for future liches I don’t foresee it being nearly as difficult as this first time. The murmur grind is questionable, but I don’t think it is a big enough issue to merit changes.

The main issue I had was with the forced interaction with the lich. Mercy killing the lich with the wrong mod is just such a binary win/lose. So much so that it discourages interaction until you’ve already farmed murmur progress.

I see a couple of directions you could take to fix that:

1. Lich doesn’t level up on failed mercy/requiem attempt. Lich instead levels up if they down you during the ‘fight’ phase of the encounter. I can see why this could be an issue with unkillable warframes being reinforced as meta, so might not be favored option.

2. On failed mercy kill, Lich still levels up, but they drop a requiem relic that contains the chance for the corresponding requiem mod that should have been used. Each requiem relic contains two possible mods, so acquiring this relic doesn’t tell you exactly which one on its own. However, it does narrow the possibilities from 7 to only 2 for that slot on the lich. Combined with murmur progress, it should be easy to deduce the correct requiem mod. Also, it creates another vector from which to acquire requiem relics.

It does bother me that currently the only way to discover the order of requiem is trial and error. I do not have any ideas for that issue at this time.

thank you for your time!

[Slimspadey101]

The cap on the amount of Thralls that can spawn in a mission is disappointing. Being able to run endless missions is a big part of why I play Warframe. It doesn't even have to be more efficient. I like being able to stay in a Survival and play it out with a group. Making Thralls stop spawning after everyone made an attempt at killing their Lich would be more reasonable I think. It wouldn't be truly endless, but still way better than the situation we have currently. Endless missions could scale based on the number of players as well. So, with 4 players a Survival would be extended to 20 minutes. Each players Lich having a chance to spawn before the end of each rotation. Whatever works for you. I just want longer missions.

[Midas]

I’d say allowing 4 liches to spawn per mission to prevent complaints of Lichs having trouble spawning.

The Artificial Intelligence of Kuva Liches are equal to the average 2012 mob.

They are wiped clean no matter their level (1-5) with ease and get stuck in one room/run into walls constantly.

The Kuva Lich should be smart and teleport around following you because you are prey.

[Ceryk]

There really needs to be a guaranteed cool down on Lichs after they rank up and you haven't unlocked all your murmurs. I just had mine show up 5 times in a row and go from 2 to 5 within 3 missions. I like to try and take care of it before it gets to Rank 5 when possible. My Lich has barely had time to get angry enough to warrant non-stop spawning, he's just reached Furious. This is kind of ridiculous.

[NeroAugustine]

17 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

There really needs to be a guaranteed cool down on Lichs after they rank up and you haven't unlocked all your murmurs. I just had mine show up 5 times in a row and go from 2 to 5 within 3 missions. I like to try and take care of it before it gets to Rank 5 when possible. My Lich has barely had time to get angry enough to warrant non-stop spawning, he's just reached Furious. This is kind of ridiculous.

I think the natural spawn rate needs to decrease, and maybe a beacon could be made available to force summon them?