(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Ikusias]

 

 

What could be improved?

Kuva liches need some of fixes to be worthwhile and repeatable content:

- Kuva lich "birth/ascent" feels still very "random": you don't risk anymore to accidentally murder a larwling while obliterating rooms worth of mooks but at the same time the concept of a mere larwling being given the chance to become lich feels "wrong"

  Kuva fortress needs content, why not make it the "birthplace" of liches? and have them start as ranked grineers with at least a number designation, not some no name weakling, using an heavy unit, eximus or other "special" standard mob in the fortress as model, and making them appear in kuva related missions as part of the garrison protecting it from us, giving us the chance to leave them broken and humiliated after "finishing" them with our parazon for an extra kuva drop - then the queen restores them as kuva liches and gives them a chance at revenge.

Now they have reason to want us dead  and,  due to the resources expended on them by the Worm Queen, they have to bring in results, and fast! And what better way than liberating resources from the best looters in the star system? Us, the tenno skoom! while generally inconveniencing us at every turn while bidding their time and ammassing resources before closing in for the kill? Revenge is plenty of motivation!

More interesting as a genesis for our lich and more coherent storywise

- Investigating kuva lich requiem is unfortunately repetitive and disconnected from standard starchart due to "segregated gameplay".

We need instead multiple ways to accumulate murmurs or actual hints, it could start from fighting our nemesis at least once - removing the instant death mechanic  - we beat them, break them, maim them and they get up again and again hunting us down relentlessly during the entire mission,  until we complete the objective successfully or their interference forces us to fail or to flee, this way we are factually shown that these enemies are different and we can't get rid of them so easily nor we will be able to ignore them without consequences

  The more skirmishes, the more chance for hints, not all true - that we'll have to sort out, leading us to HUNT for clues by actually engaging with content, maybe with a certain bias towards some kinds of missions depending on the "role" and personality of our personal lich.

Spy vaults in lich territory could offer new information or confirm/confute what we already have or point our search towards specific mission or certain nodes, in addition to the standard drop table.

Capture missions could focus on our kuva lich lieutenants in an attempt to gather more information on its abilities and weaknesses and so on...

We could buy information for potentially rewarding nodes or actual information from allied syndacates, Maroo and Symaris, while hostile syndacates might actively work against us in many ways, even going as far as forewarn our enemies of our movements.

Capture missions, survivals, spy could potentially change objective in the same way as rarely regular missions do: while doing spy vaults we could  find the last one purged with a thrall on the run with the info we need - a capture mission could prove to be a trap and turning into a survival or exterminate mission, were we have to outlast our lich troops trying to corner us.

Our defeat  in these missions should advance the lich agenda somehow leading to expansion of its area of influence, new powers, raising enemy level in missions we already attempted and so on

At the same time rummaging around will get our nemesis attention, leading to increasing chance of its death squads targeting us and our allies and/or clanmates in any mission. Maybe a routine mission becomes a rush against time to rescue a vital informant, or a routine mission becomes a reverse sabotage in which we must attempt to prevent a reactor explosion on a ship from an allied faction or risk being blamed for it and lose standing.

The nearer we get to the complete requiem, the worse the enemy pressure, with all three mods unlocked increasing chance exponentially for our Kuva lich challenging us directly or sending a lieutenant or elite troops to actually eliminate us.

Information gathered could also be about the objectives and the resources of the lich, leading into missions dedicated to raiding the lich treasure ships or storage depots, for profit or pure vandalism! Sabotaging a ship to suffer a catastrophic reactor meltdown or vent it's atmosphere and survive until we completely ransack its hold?

- star map grab and control: our nemesis has another duty beside us,  now that it got empowered and survived us, the queen expects more! - leading  to increasingly frequent and progressively more difficult invasion missions and raising resource taxation around the star map.

Invasions against the lich would prevent it from claiming more nodes, setting back its plans, helping its side would give chances to obtain considerable clues about his  requiem or the location of his base of operations, targets to hunt for information...

 

Overall I feel changes in a direction similar to what I outlined would make the lich experience more engaging and organic in context with the rest of the game, removing the current segregation between regular missions and murmurs collection - doing standard missions isn't a task "per se", but part of our ongoing personal feud with our kuva lich and progressive steps towards defeating it while creating a narrative arc.

Alliances with other tenno facing their own liches should be encouraged, with enemies pooling their resourches to hunt us, entire clans or alliances could be targeted, with players collaborating towards their defeat

Edited November 7, 2019 by Ikusias
Greatly trimmed and reordered content in a more readable format

[TeenyMiNNers]

Could you Please change the ammount that the Lich sodding Teleport, Im only on my second Lich but it has multiple Radiation abilitys and a teleport but its literally using the TP EVERY 5 SECONDS. Im now struggeling to get this thing to the first fase of the fight because im having to chace it through the entire map for the TP and its honestly getting to the point that I dont want to play because i know i need to deal with this thing

[Gloween]

Please, make that if a lich owner does nothing with the lich, then the lich just despawns. Coz I've tired of "PEOPLE" whos lich had spawned but they do nothing which how you can gues prevents other people's liches from spawn. 

 

My toxicity vault is gettinig overflown at this moment.  

[BrazilianJoe]

Kuva Liches should steal more the higher their level.

[Educated_Beast]

Why were we told that random stats on rivens will cause performance issues and slots capped / sold?

Now we have random stats on weapons.  I would prefer a base stat bonus for all weapons of the same type and remove the RNG.  Adding a forma can linearly increase the power up until max MR for the weapon and Max stat bonus.

This will allow trading without cry babies screaming riven 2.0 (I like rivens).  How can you not allow trading?  

Want plat sales, allow these to be traded.  Even when you have one maxed, you may want to trade for another with a different element.  

Trading fixes grind for players like me that have been there and done that already and offers a way to earn for new players that have not done hundreds of mobile defence already...

TLDR - normalize kuva weapons and allow trading

 

[KnightOwl_]

The limit on one lich at a time needs to go away.  Since people ignore their lich, allow for up to all 4 liches per group, or each members lich, to show up, with a timer between spawns to prevent a pile on.  It eliminates the whole waiting for the current lich to go away and honestly a 4 v 4 Tenno vs lich fracas sounds like a good time for all.  

[TheImmortalGoat]

My main issues (most concerning the kuva lich "kingpin" system)

Several Layers of RNG: you not only need the luck to gather the right reqiuem relics to get the requiem mods you need, but also need luck in actually getting the reward you need from the relic. It is also incredibly frustrating that after a many hours of farming to attain the reqiuem relics, to attain the right reqiuem mods, to attain the murmurs needed to know which requiem mods to bring, and to attain the info as to what order to have the mods, all i am rewarded with is a gun with a low elemental damage bonus of a meager 28%. This means that i will then have to repeat the process all over again to attain the weapon i want, with an damage bonus i deem satisfactory.

It takes a very long time to farm the murmurs needed to know which requiem mods to bring.

The kuva lich levelling up: Does not affect anything other than the difficulty of the lich, having rewards scale with lich level would be preferencial eg the damage bonus scaling with lich level.

Condition Overload Nerf: Despite melee 3.0 wanting to help diversify builds, it has done the opposite, due to the nerf of condition overload many status only builds have become less/completely unviable in higher level content, further narrowing the builds viable the higher level content

My proposals:

Remove the RNG on the kuva weapons' damage bonus, either by making the percentage a fixed value or by allowing those with a lower damage bonus to increase it through the use of the levels above 30 the kuva weapons gain as a result of adding forma.

Reduce the number of murmurs needed to find out which reqiuem mods to use, or increase the number of thrall enemies that spawn in lich controlled missions.

Have a dedicated mission node for farming requiem relics, that is not on a timer like kuva survival/siphon missions.

Reinstate condition overloads previos place in damage calculation as multiplative instead of a flat damage bonus

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by TheImmortalGoat
added thoughts on condition overload nerf

[-Kittens-]

Duplicate kuva weapons need to stack into the original kuva weapon and the element it has until max is reached.

[LordRusty]

On 2019-11-06 at 8:47 PM, LordRusty said:

Could we have a lich station in the orbiter please? The integration into the codex is nice, but time consuming. Here's my suggested bit of game design. While we're already looking at this particular area which includes noggles. Can I float the idea of being able to turn our lichs into custom noggles? I would pay good plat for that.
https://imgur.com/a/YaI7YTi
 

 

23 hours ago, --Blame-- said:

i think they gonna put this on dojo

Do you mean as a foundry buildable segment (like kavat station) or a console in the dojo? That said, having a console in dojo where you can give lichs to teamates you don't want would be great and I know DE have talked about it.

[Sitchrea]

The three big issues with kuva Liches: 

My opinion:

1. Not only do Liches need to be tradable, they should be scrapable. Don't like your Lich? We should have a way to get rid of it and cycle a new one.

2. Helping other players with Liches should be worth something. They had it perfect when all lich downs gave murmers, but then they #*!%ed it. Now I know why DE changed it - Liches could be cycled in under an hour with a good squad - however, right now players are straight up ignoring Liches when they spawn because there's no point in helping your squadmates fight them.

3. Liches need to die when they are killed. Right now they are hardly Liches, they are juggernauts. Having the wrong Requiems on your Parazon should not cost the player a life, it should cost the Lich. Liches are immortal; let them be immortal.

[LordRusty]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

3. Liches need to die when they are killed. Right now they are hardly Liches, they are juggernauts. Having the wrong Requiems on your Parazon should not cost the player a life, it should cost the Lich. Liches are immortal; let them be immortal.

Louder for the people in the back!

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

3. Liches need to die when they are killed. Right now they are hardly Liches, they are juggernauts. Having the wrong Requiems on your Parazon should not cost the player a life, it should cost the Lich. Liches are immortal; let them be immortal.

I find it funny how DE took inspiration from Shadow of MorWar but somehow did the opposite of how the game could keep reviving a Uruk you killed over and over until he became a real threat.

They are immortal, but they never actually die more than twice, once as a larva and once by the requiem mods.

If anything killing them improperly should have been what made them stronger, not them killing you.

[Azvalk]

il y a 22 minutes, Aldain a dit :

il y a 27 minutes, Sitchrea a dit :

3. Liches need to die when they are killed. Right now they are hardly Liches, they are juggernauts. Having the wrong Requiems on your Parazon should not cost the player a life, it should cost the Lich. Liches are immortal; let them be immortal.

I find it funny how DE took inspiration from Shadow of MorWar but somehow did the opposite of how the game could keep reviving a Uruk you killed over and over until he became a real threat.

They are immortal, but they never actually die more than twice, once as a larva and once by the requiem mods.

If anything killing them improperly should have been what made them stronger, not them killing you.

exactly !
Thanks !
Let's unite, people, we need to be heard on this point, it's important.
Immortality of the lich, is a defining part of the concept.
We need to see the dead lich on the ground, killed by wrong mods, and so the kuva reacts, rise it in the air, like it did with the larva, and teleport it for resurrection, stronger.
The creepy aspect of the kuva that cheat death is really important.

Of course the power reversal thing is epic, and needs to exist, but it can be anywhere during the fight.
Longer fights, dangerous lich that can catch us anytime, and logical outcome when we put it on its knee

Edited November 7, 2019 by Azvalk

[AreeSoothsayer]

I have to know. Did you guys set it up so that the Lich will most likely spawn with a weapon you have yet to get? I just got the last weapon of the set and expected to have to really make alot of Liches to get it. Not wham, bam, thankyou mam.

[mr_razorite]

Its no secret that converting a lich right now is pretty much useless. In the future it sounds like converted liches will become tradeable however this wont alleviate the pain of getting a lich with a weapon that has a bad roll and no ephemera, these would still be pointless to convert and would likely be worth nothing, aside from whatever the market decides the price for the base weapon is.

It would be nice if the choice of either a weapon or converting actually MEANT something, maybe different liches give the player different rewards on a conversion, a sort of thanks for not killing me package. This could be endo/kuva, some radiant relics/relic pack a riven? Just anything to make those badly rolled liches less of a slog to work past and instead of getting to the end with 0 reward or incentive other then getting to start the next hunt you at least get something.

Right now getting a lich with a badly rolled duplicate weapon and no ephemera is the worst feeling, you have to just spend however long it takes to kill the lich to then convert it, in turn basically giving nothing or take the badly rolled weapon and sell it for a pitiful amount of credits, giving more incentive to converting a lich would make hunting a lich more worth the time and effort no matter what the weapon is. The ability to trade converted liches will help, but I dont think this alone would be enough especially when it comes to badly rolled liches.

[Azvalk]

For those who desperately want a way to get rid of a useless lich, there is this to take into account:
Clip of Steve's stream

The functionality is not there yet, because it is related to the dojo, and therefore probably to empyrean.
Remember that the update of the liches is here because it has been separated from empyrean.
Everything will be in a much better state when empyrean will complete the system.

[Zebiko]

I cannot get the larvling to spawn after several missions. I do them solo because I want to be the one to last hit them. The lights flicker sometimes but no message and no spawn. Please fix or make it 100% spawn rate.

[Dark_Lugia]

Kuva liches can ragdoll you through glass/thin walls

he threw me out of the window

Edited November 7, 2019 by Dark_Lugia

[AreeSoothsayer]

I have yet to see an Allied Lich spawn to assist outside of a mission under Enemy Lich control.

[shootaman777]

Valence Transfer is a worthless, useless mechanic. 

The concept of transfering buffs from one weapon to another makes sense, but this iteration of it is nothing short of worthless. 

First of all, since players can choose their preferred additional element on their Kuva weapon based on progenitor Warframe (and the wiki has a full list of which Warframes produce which elements), there is no case other than correcting a player's error, where doing a Valence Transfer to change element will prove useful.  Players who have reached the stage where they are grinding Kuva Liches are less prone to such mistakes, and are more likely to know which element they want in advance, since they are well aware that precious few of them are remotely beneficial (to the point where it would be worth grinding Kuva Liches for this elemental buff). 

Secondly, it is useless for players who wish to transfer a higher elemental bonus of the same type, onto a weapon with a weaker elemental bonus of the same type.  The reason being, that a player who knows that they would be grinding for a higher bonus of the same element, would not have already invested into the weapon that they had planned to replace.  As such, there would be no point in transferring onto their original weapon, and the player would be better off selling the old weapon for 5.000 credits.  Which brings me into my next point. 

Thirdly, there is no benefit to the player from this mechanic (other than fixing their mistakes, which is not a benefit, but a cancellation of self-imposed detriment).  As such, for this mechanic to succeed (and be used), there needs to be some benefit to the player. 
The weapon exilus slot and the Catchmoon is an example of how NOT to implement such a benefit.  Nerfing the Catchmoon's range fall-off, then providing a means of extra grind to reduce the nerf (by grinding a weapon exilus adapter, and forma'ing the Catchmoon (potentially) several more times to put Projectile Flight Speed mods on it) is not a healthy change.  It's saying "here's some extra grind to keep some semblance of what you already obtained". 

Here's how to make this mechanic beneficial to players, while still encouraging them to grind more:
-allow weapons with weaker/stronger elemental buffs of the same type to be combined into one another, and have their bonuses ADD UP to the cap of the maximum roll. 
-allow elements to COMBINE, applying the elemental limits of normal modding.  Let's say a Kuva weapon has a radiation bonus, for instance.  Radiation is heat and electricity, which leaves cold and toxin as unused elements.  Kuva weapons with cold, toxin, viral, and/or all of the above could then be transferred into the radiation weapon up until the cap for either cold, toxin, or viral.  These would then count as base damage types in the weapon, allowing for up to 4 dual-elements in the same weapon/3 dual-elements and 1 single element (up from the former maximum of 3 dual-elementals that weapons with a dual-elemental as part of its base damage can attain). 

[mr_razorite]

54 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Secondly, it is useless for players who wish to transfer a higher elemental bonus of the same type, onto a weapon with a weaker elemental bonus of the same type.  The reason being, that a player who knows that they would be grinding for a higher bonus of the same element, would not have already invested into the weapon that they had planned to replace.  As such, there would be no point in transferring onto their original weapon, and the player would be better off selling the old weapon for 5.000 credits.  Which brings me into my next point. 

I think the idea here is that a player is likely to start working on and leveling any new weapon as soon as they can, I mean I know I did. Be it for getting the mastery asap or just wanting to try out something new. Being able to infuse a weapon with better rolls allows players to start using the weapon as soon as they want without having to worry if the roll they got its the best of the best. I mean who knows how long someone would have to wait to start using a weapon if they just waited till the max roll came along. Also if people are chasing certain ephemeras first, its likely they will get the wrong elements on weapons they want to use and will also find this system useful. Honestly I asked for this change, its a great change and I hope its here to stay if they stick to their guns with random rolls.

Edited November 8, 2019 by mr_razorite

[Combob]

Please allow Maroo extract kuva from those weapons

[Cloverdew]

Let me pick a leech weapon. I do not want to waste time on random weapons.
I don’t want to die from leeches just because I don’t have the right set of requiems. Is a mockery.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Cloverdew

[enemystand]

I hope the servers can handle us getting hundreds or thousands of duplicate weapons in the foundry all with different names, when we finish farming the 8 epehemeras. just started the 13th lich and the 12th of the same element, no epehemera on sight.

the only way to avoid this is to sacrifice the duplicated weapons to increase the buff of our chosen weapon, that way we can work to get the max bonus on different weapons, or have different copies of the weapon but with different elements maxed

[shootaman777]

18 minutes ago, mr_razorite said:

I think the idea here is that a player is likely to start working on and leveling any new weapon as soon as they can, I mean I know I did. Be it for getting the mastery asap or just wanting to try out something new. Being able to infuse a weapon with better rolls allows players to start using the weapon as soon as they want without having to worry if the roll they got its the best of the best. I mean who knows how long someone would have to wait to start using a weapon if they just waited till the max roll came along. Also if people are chasing certain ephemeras first, its likely they will get the wrong elements on weapons they want to use and will also find this system useful. Honestly I asked for this change, its a great change and I hope its here to stay if they stick to their guns with random rolls.

I'm not saying that the current iteration of the mechanic should go away, I'm saying that it could be expanded on so that it's not exclusively useful to people who didn't plan their grind out in advance.