(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[UNeaK1502]

Started my 13th lich, and the weapon drops have been terrible so far. Keep in mind, it takes mostly 2 hours to get a single weapon.
6 Tonkors
2 Twin Stubba
2 Drakgoon
2 Chakkhurr
1 Kraken

Pros:
MR28 is now available (yay)
Fusing of weapons and applying buffs is kind of okay
Beefy enemy that is something else in contrast to the rest of the game
Murmur reduction (please reduce tier 3)
Getting relics from Thralls (you basically dont have to do the Kuva Floods anymore)
Being able to influence weapon buff

Cons:
Does not contribute to the Coop gameplay of warframe with one tiny exception: Killing a lich benefits others. Only the kill. Why has it been removed that you get Murmurs for failed killed. Thats one coop aspect of the new system just gone.
Lich spawns most of the time hundreds of meters behind.
Weapons/Liches can't be traded, thats just a missed opportunity for clans that are currently useless except for trading and weapons.
Kuva larvling not spawning consistently although the screen flickering happens.
Too many layers of RNG
Mission are boring and repetitive

Solution: (Kind of)
Being able to trade Kuva Weapons in exchange for only other Kuva weapons (unlevelled obviously). People will still have to finish their liches but dont have to do 150 liches to get nearly every weapon.
Donate Liches to the Dojo and do somekind of research on them so future liches may require less Murmurs.
Spawn the Lich just like the Stalker, with the smokey spawn animation.
When fusing Kuva weapons, apply not only the buffs, but also give a "free" Forma/rank reset on top for the effort of finishing a Lich for 2 hours (which could have been used to get multiple Forma BP)
Add more nodes (endless and fissures) to the controlled nodes, so we can farm more than one thing at a time. Endless missions are already "challenging" when you start the mission at level 80+, so why dont encourage players to benefit more if they stay longer
Conclusion:
Its a system with potential, but the so called long time commitment generates in my opinion nothing but frustration in its current state.
I keep asking myself, what a bossfight had to be like to be challenging, yet not be too easy to cheese. The Eidolons are probably the best in the game so I appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting into this and hope some of the improvements 

Edited November 10, 2019 by UNeaK1502

[ledkit]

I got my second lich and I don't think my excess murmur transferred over. My clanmates tell the same.

[AreeSoothsayer]

4 minutes ago, ledkit said:

I got my second lich and I don't think my excess murmur transferred over. My clanmates tell the same.

It doesn't transfer to another lich. If you finish the first ring, the next Murmurs will start on the second ring. Once the Lich is finished, Murmurs are reset to 0

[Kalvorax]

I feel like the parazon mods should be droppable (rarer than relics) from the thralls again...I for one do not mind the new relics as they provide a more favorable means of getting kuva (though ive only ever seen rescure and survival on the fortress???? and why not more than one?) BUT I hate the fact that ive run a couple dozen and have gotten nothing but amber stars kuva and riven slices even with rad level relics....

As for liches...WHY THE HELL DID YOU MAKE THEM STATUS IMMUNE? Rank 5 have so much effing armor that any hard hitting weapon tickels them 😐 Im on my 1st lich still and already sick to death of all this grind. Im fine with having multiple lichs, but the grind is stupid for solo play ("Go play group"....then PUGing it is my only way).

Edited November 11, 2019 by Kalvorax

[Syln]

About kuva weapons, forma dump and mastery : Rank above 30 shouldn't bestow any mastery it give a feeling of being forced to waste formas on weapons that i don't really care about even if i can transfer them to a better version, it doesn't really matter if i don't plan to use said weapon in the first place.

[ThatonePenguinPerson]

I'm pretty frustrated with getting the archgun multiple times, so I have a possible solution. What if it was a guaranteed that you'd get one of each weapon within the first 13 Liches, and then after that it's all up to rng. The first one of each that you get within those 13 liches should have a predetermined weapon bonus of 25%, because you're basically being given them. AFTER THOSE 13, the bonus and weapon should be randomized like it is now. I think this would prove as a worthwhile farm to strive for higher percentages as a veteran, because Ideally... you have the weapon you want, but if you wanna min-max it, you can with the Valence Transfer mechanic. For those that just want the weapons but don't plan on using them too much or haven't the urge to min-max, they still have to spend roughtly 3 hours per lich (excluding farm to get relics/mods) to get one copy of the 13 weapons. I feel like this is a solution that DE could follow through with, because the weapon the player wants is still being rolled with rng, but it is guaranteed within 13 liches, which means DE will still get players investing hours in their game.

[wizardeiges]

I've played this game consistently for years,I almost never play anything else.  With the lich system i'm experiencing the first time ever I don't want to play.

You know what people like? feeling like their time spent is rewarded.

You know what people hate? feeling like their time is wasted.

I've killed three kuva liches in a row that all had kuva krakens. It isn't even arguably the worst weapon in the game,it is the worst weapon in the game. At least you can meme kill a eidolon with a stug. The best part is I don't even have it as bad as it can get,i've seen so many other people complaining about how they've had 6+ of the same weapon drop back to back. That isn't acceptable considering how much time is spent just to get rid of a lich.

6+ hours to kill 3 liches just to get them out of my star chart to have another obviously high chance at a 4th kuva kraken is crippling.   My time spent isn't remotely rewarded,if anything it feels like you're punishing me for playing the game and that's ridiculous.  There is literally zero reward in killing liches anymore if all you're going to give me is krakens or the same weapon over and over and over that takes hours to cycle between each lich.   

There is a reason the kraken is almost never used by anyone
You even showed on your stream to compare catchmoon to all secondaries that kraken is one of the most bottom of the barrel guns that almost no one uses it. 




I have a few ways I'd like to see this change so that so much time isn't spent on getting punished through a lich only to get punished again with the next one:

Let us cycle liches,even if it only lets us remove a lich every 24 hours. 

Let us trade liches immediately after obtaining them so we aren't trapped with worthless liches for 3+ hours over and over and over. Set it up so liches can only be traded for other liches,I don't care,as long as I can get rid of my worthless liches without having to dedicate a large part of my day to get rid of something that has zero worth to me for the 4th time in a row.

Let unleveled lich weapons be tradable like every other syndicate,event weapon,invasion weapon,and baro weapon.



 

Edited November 11, 2019 by wizardeiges

[MrJxt]

Sometimes the Kuva Lich will spawn too far or too close.

The worst case I've had was a 700m spawn when all 4 squad members were near extraction, we decided to extract because we're not backtracking 700m to fight the Lich and then another +700m for extraction.

I've had one case where the Lich spawned right beside me and started attacking without any warning.

A good solution is to have the lich spawn in the same room as the player similar to other assassins (Stalker, syndicate squads etc). A one-time red warning flicker similar to other assassins would also serve well as a heads-up.

Edited November 11, 2019 by MrJxt

[RA1313ITS]

So far I can't stand the tedious murmur farming, especially the third tier.    I do feel this system does have potential though.  

Edited November 11, 2019 by RA1313ITS

[Nezha_Rose]

56 minutes ago, wizardeiges said:

kuva krakens. It isn't even arguably the worst weapon in the game,it is the worst weapon in the game. 

I disagree. Collected almost all weapons in the game. Ended up using Kuva Kraken a hole lot and Ill consider maining for a while.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Nezha_Rose

[Gentleman_Bird]

5 minutes ago, RA1313ITS said:

So far I can't stand the tedious murmur farming, especially the third tier.    I do feel this system does have potential though.  

I kinda like it in theory. Having a delay on the third murmur unlock gives you a chance to figure out the last requiem yourself. Unfortunately, the only way to figure it out yourself is by hoping your lich shows up and brute forcing every combination. It would be nice if there a way to narrow down the possibilities other than brute forcing.

[Gaikki]

I would love to see/hear more diverse voicelines and personalities from liches. The current female lich - serious, male lich - mY dUmP yOiNk got me going "ehh." after just 3 liches. Even more so since I got 3 male liches in a row. I would like to have a serious male lich and iDiOt TaX female lich, at the very least. 

And, you know. Some addition of even more diverse looks of liches. I- I mean, hopefully. In the future. Later. Soon? 

[Skye_Archer]

19 Kuva Liches done, 12 of the 13 weapons appeared, although I didn't get one of the twelve as I converted that lich rather than klll it..Since my last reply has anything changed? Yea, Murmur farming is still a chore but with more time with the system I seen more issues...

As such my biggest issues with the Lich system is

1. ZERO incentive to level your Lich (making the game harder is not an incentive for me and probably a lot of other players, but there will be those that like a challenge). Since regardless of the Lich level, you will still get the same Kuva weapon regardless... The reward stays the same whilst the risk goes up, makes no logical sense

2. After acquiring all 13 current Kuva weapons, there is little incentive to revisit the Kuva Lich system, that extra bonus percentage on your favorite Kuva weapon isn't worth the amount of RNG involved.. Even if more weapons are added to the system, the heavy RNG encountered over the type of weapon you can get doesn't make it worth going back to... There needs to be something else (other than the minute chance of getting an appearance item) to make people want to continue to engage in this system.

3. The murmur requirement makes farming Thralls converted by the Kuva Lich from Nearby NPCs a better option than plain outright killing it.. Especially on missions where you get a steady stream of NPC coming to you when you are near the Kuva Lich

4.i. In a group, if a player doesn't kill or attempt to kill their Kuva Lich, this will prevent other group player's Lich's from spawning.

4.ii . As a direct result I have seen players force a host migration to get rid of the current Kuva Lich and replace it with another one from the group...This however can cause the current mission in progress to literally break... Both 4.i and 4.ii opens the potential for players to grief each other.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Skye_Archer
added context

[Semberas]

40 liches done i have 3 suggestion to make quality better.

1- Let thralls spawn after a lich killed.
2- Anger should increase and liches should spawn in non-influenced missions so we can play with friends instead going public always.
3- Ephemera drops should increase to 10% at least. It looks like 2% something

Edited November 11, 2019 by Semberas

[AndrewScreamSoul]

Wondering if it possible implement a way to resurrect a Lich and making it your ally, or like defy death and change furthermore from her/his original aspect

[AreeSoothsayer]

I keep seeing that big container of Kuva embedded. I went up close and watched a player kill his lich by breaking that container.

 

Converting a Lich should be the reward. (Once they fix the AI and lack of skill use)

However defeating the lich by breaking that tub of Kuva should have that red gold pouring out all over the ground for players to pick up. The higher the level of Lich the more Kuva will spill out onto the ground.

[HEYORI]

I personally give up even on my first kuva Lich. Had pretty much unbiased view point, just blindly went in. The grind is to much, the rewards a mediocre at best. They might be strong stat wise idk, but it's doesn't changing the fact that this just re skin variants of existing weapons. 

The aspects the put me off the most.

Why I need to kill 50 special enemies to reveal one lich weak point? Even tho I know it's not required. But why 50? It' could of been easily 10 or 5 with reduced spawn rate.
The mods are not a guaranteed drop, and I think that ur first set of mods needs to be a guaranteed drop. I started farming new special relics, and just quit somewhere in the proces.  

[GreyEnneract]

On 2019-10-31 at 11:16 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

DEV NOTE:  Because so much is changing by design with THE OLD BLOOD, we want to be clear on how we’re handling your feedback. The majority of week 1-2 Hotfixes will speak to feedback. We want to combine feedback and stats together to iterate. To be a part of the feedback conversation please be constructive and clear (expand the spoilers below for a guide on how to write feedback), and most importantly, patient.

I can't stress this enough, stop making all of the recent enemies you guys put into the game completely status proc immune.
Nullifying entire mechanics isn't what us veterans see as difficulty.
Making status procs not last as long, or having DR against status procs would work just fine.
But complete immunity just makes me want to tab out of the game with a tank.

[b4timert]

1)The kuva lich lich should drop a random requiem mod when it's killed/converted for the squad it should be enough of a motivation for the squad to help and kill it. Kuva is a other option but won't make sense if you convert it. But i guess you can go kuva on kill requiem mod on conversion but the option itself might upset people i can already see people complain i need kuva kill it.

2)the time v reward isnt there this gets progressively worse the more liches you killed.

3)dont make the kuva weapons tradeable or think how trading work it's a quick fix for the problem at hand. i dont want to get stuck with a kuva x that noone wants while y is something everyone want. The main reason it will get worse as time go by is because the moment a new one is added everyone would want it and very few people would want the old 13 unless if its a top tier one.

4)increase the drop on ephemera if killed 15 liches for my 1st one and someone else in my clan 19. At the moment is kinda fine since were still trying to get the weapons but a drop chance should be proportional to the amount of time you spent. a 5%-11% drop chance on a axi relic is fine since in 17-24 min you normally have 2 chances to get it. A 5% chance on a the stalker ephemera is low but at least you can get it in normal gameplay. a 10% drop chance on exploiter orb ephemera is fine since its a 15-30 min fight. a 2%-5% generation on a lich ephemera ist good since it takes 1-6 hours to kill one. The chance to get one should be somewhere between  20-40%. Were not MMO players and i don't want abysmal drop chances on stuff i want. Besides i found liches with ephemera looks a lot cooler. out of all the liches if help kill if only seen 1 ephemera and it's mine. She had a mask on wile green toxic looking smoke was leaving her if only she had a toxic flamethrower looking weapon.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by b4timert

[Telogor]

I love the Kuva Brakk, except for the insane falloff, but I can work around that.  The Kuva Seer is a weapon for which I've waited forever.  Ever since I started Warframe and killed Vor a few times to build the original Seer, I've thought it was a really cool weapon design that I want a good version of.  Finally, the buffed version gets here and it's amazing... except for a horrendously low 36 total ammo.  Why.  Why did you find it necessary to gimp this weapon when it seems to be somewhat worse than a Tombfinger.  The only advantages it has over a Haymaker Splat Tombfinger are a 2nd bonus element, slash damage, and more status.  On the other hand, it's way behind when it comes to crit stats, mag size, and reload speed.  Limiting the Kuva Seer to 27 rounds in reserve when the Tombfinger can have infinite ammo at no real cost is absurd.  Please just give the Kuva Seer a normal pistol ammo pool, or even just 90 rounds in reserve.

[DesertEagle1280]

Ongoing feedback:

Maybe in addition, valence transfer can up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60% or whatever max is cold seer.  From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops. Added to my intial suggestion of a guaranteed improvement to ele % it means every lich would guarantee progress in some way - either improving a weapon you have, or spawning a weapon you don't. 

Also, it takes far too long to get the lich to spawn when you've got your murmers and are ready to down him.  Slogging through 90-110 level missions over and over just to piss him off gets real old real fast, thralls are pointless as I don't need any more murmurs.  Lorewise, say either we have a node we can go to so we can fight him 100% chance due to collecting intel from thralls (ie found his homebase).  Alternatively, say he has a 100% chance to spawn because he knows we're close and is frantic to defeat us.

[schottlander]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb AndrewScreamSoul:

Wondering if it possible implement a way to resurrect a Lich and making it your ally, or like defy death and change furthermore from her/his original aspect

Ressurecting a Lich with Kuva sounds like a thematically appropriate concept 😄

[blwf]

I feel like the Kuva Liches we consign should be appearing more than they currently do. Right now they only appear AFTER we die in mission and only stay for a while. I think they would be more useful if there was always a chance for 1 of the Liches we consign to appear every second as long as there isn't already one. Would give us a good reason to consign the Liches. 

[Williams]

Most of weapon exilus mods are useless, we should be able use more mods on exilus slot like Speed Trigger,shred,rifle aptitude or some IPS damage mods.

[sorcer3r]

Besides missing rewards (only requiem relics right now) murmur farming missions should look different.

Where is all the Old Blood?

Maybe use the sortie radiation gfx effect, turn it into red and missions would look like Kuva Lich territory.