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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

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May I ask why exalted weapons didn’t get buffed up to scratch with the rest? Now they feel ridiculously underwhelming in terms of comparative power. Especially Wukong and Valkyr.

Why is a goddamn Ether Sword better than Dual Kamas Prime? ‘‘Tis doesn’t really make sense. Still a Prime. Paracesis, despite being one of the strongest swords in lore, feels like a wet towel compared with the other Primes. Especially powercreeped Gram Prime.

The new heavy attacks feel far too clunky to use as a not-slam - they take too long.

Melee as a whole has also lost its role as a good method of mob killing / scaling. Their damage is far too low even up front (Lex Prime oneshots thralls; melee takes about 6 seconds) A nice balance method would be to either make combo affect regular attacks again or uncap the combo count (12x is not nearly enough to kill higher level enemies).

Can Lich finisher animations be sped up? Getting stuck in a ragdoll for 5 seconds is the antithesis of fun.

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4 hours ago, Ulvra said:

 switch the prompt back to E so it fits with the regular flow of combat? It is a melee attack still after all.

Disagree. Regular Melee in most cases is enough to kill and flows faster in combat. Excal for example benefits greatly from Finishers being a different button, as his blind damage boost can be properly taken advantage of with regular melee attacks without needing to micromanage your distance from the enemy to avoid a slow finisher animation wasting your time.

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4 minutes ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

May I ask why exalted weapons didn’t get buffed up to scratch with the rest?

Because, with Condition Overload being nerfed threefold, we want Wukong's 4 to be bad again. Seriously. Without CO and inability to use Blood Rush... Wukong's 4 is bad again compared to other exhalted weapons.... the more things change the more they stay the same.

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I've been in several games where a lich attacks my squadmate, (It's theirs) But they refuse to fight it because without proper mods they're afraid they'd just die right away. So they avoid the lich the entire mission. I'm not saying take away Requiem mods, but players don't even attempt to fight the lich if they don't have the mods, meaning the lich doesn't get a chance to level up. (I love the idea of requiem mods and needing to figure out the code!)

 

Not sure if this may want to be looked into but it's essentially locking a lich to what ever level their already at which doesn't seem very fun. Personally I try to kill my lich any chance I get even if I don't have requiem mods to try.(to level him up) I was under the impress we could still execute them they'd just come back later without requiem mods. (The problem with this is that players have no incentive to fight a lich even knowing they lack the mods, making it rather dull.)

 

Switch it up so we have a chance to kill them in the mission to remove them from it,(Or have them counter us) Maybe have them drop that planets rare resource or something from a standard non 'lethal' encounter. Like the Stalker does (Giving a planet's rare resource would be impractical to veterans, so I suggest some sort of reward for beating them without having the necessary mods to kill them, such as more information than you'd get from thralls.)

Edited by Silta
Post Note.
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21 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

We need to sidetrack TOO MUCH to interact with Kuva Liches. They really need better integration into the main game and much, MUCH less RNG involved. 

Yeah, they copied Shadow of Mordor but tacked on SO MUCH MORE grind. In Shadow of War, I could literally walk up to the Warlord and fight him at his castle, it's just he'd spawn with four named lieutenants and draw me into a major unwinnable fight. The grind to make the fight easier made sense, since I could kill or convert his lieutenants to expose him, even draw him into an ambush. Warframe's approach boils down to "grind missions until you get keys, then fight the Lich." And even that would have worked if I didn't need seemingly 40 Thralls for one rune of three, and them seemingly a dozen Kuva Siphons for one Relic out of Lord knows how many I'd need. And again - all of this on top of the perpetually time-gated Nightwave, no less.

 

14 minutes ago, NoLife said:

Disagree. Regular Melee in most cases is enough to kill and flows faster in combat. Excal for example benefits greatly from Finishers being a different button, as his blind damage boost can be properly taken advantage of with regular melee attacks without needing to micromanage your distance from the enemy to avoid a slow finisher animation wasting your time.

How DO you pull off a Mercy Kill? I've not seen a prompt for it, the Patch Notes made no mention of it and I have so far only been able to do that to Thralls... For whom it seems to be mandatory anyway.

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Thralls need a solid drop chance for reqiuem relics. Or add requem relics to kuva disruption plz.

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I will preface that I haven't played anything regarding the kuva liches, but I will leave feedback as to why I won't now and for a little while based on what I have read on the update post and any official info given.

Firstly, the on paper grind to actually fight the lich seems a bit much (considering a later point in which I will mention). First, you need to farm kuva siphons for a chance to get them or a flood to get one of them for sure. Then, you actually need to run the requiem relics to get a chance to get the new mods. Then, you need to farm the lich's minions to find what the weakness is, unless you want to do it by trial and error and potentially waste time.

Now, on it's own it's just a tedious grind towards a boss fight, which isn't awful. What makes it awful is that, while that lich is active, the lich will actively taking your loot on any mission it influences until you take it down, which has been established to be a very long process. Frankly, it feels forced: I either spend a great deal of time trying to kill my lich, or I just let the thing take my loot.

Take this feedback with a grain of salt as, again, I haven't tried it anything lich related and this is strictly on what I see on paper, and just based on what I see I am simply not interested. Progression towards the boss is fun, but making that progression entirely random due to layers of RNG is not. Until things change, any grineer lich larvae that show up I will spare, because I can't be bothered.

Edited by R34LM

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I am wondering if Kuva Liches that you have converted have a limit.

Like only your most recent Kuva Lich you convert appears in missions.

If there isn't a limit than Converting seems more appealing. 

Actually the thing i am hoping for is if you can add your converted Kuva Liches to man your railjack when that update comes out.

 

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fix the game, every time i get to kill the lich it bugs out and get stuck in cutscene

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10 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Then, you need to farm the lich's minions to find what the weakness is, unless you want to do it by trial and error and potentially waste time and charges on your requiem mods

While I have many issues with this update - supposedly the mods only lose a charge when successful, so 3 charges would last through 20 fails, and only lose 1 charge on one success.  Don't get me wrong, I fundamentally disagree with the amount of RNG involved in getting through the lich process, but at the same time we should only rake them over the coals based on the right complaints.

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1 minute ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

While I have many issues with this update - supposedly the mods only lose a charge when successful, so 3 charges would last through 20 fails, and only lose 1 charge on one success.  Don't get me wrong, I fundamentally disagree with the amount of RNG involved in getting through the lich process, but at the same time we should only rake them over the coals based on the right complaints.

I hadn't seen much on whether or not they were consumed on both success and failure. But, in light of that, I'll just remove the comment from my post.

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You guys tacked on so much grind that the new content (actually fighting the liches) is less than 10% of the time spent playing this update. Also your monetization of these new relics looks scummy and desperate (are you guys in financial trouble?). The melee changes have a lot of potential but you guys have a lot of tweaking to do. I would also like to say that as a skill based systems fan the Kuva Lich matching puzzle really rubs me the wrong way. How are you expecting players to generate unique stories about their successes and mistakes when the liches can only really threaten us through instakill counter cheese linked to heavy rng (either through the grind to uncover the puzzle or brute forcing the 300+ solutions). The charm that the system had in its Mordor implementation came from the ease of access and the fact that almost any non-mission mistake could feed back into your nemesis or his allies.

Edited by Moomabo
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I'm enjoying the elveated enemy levels in the Lich's territory; low enough to use my less powerful loadouts, but high enough that I can't afford to get sloppy in some of my squishier 'frames. Requiem Fissures get a thumbs up from me, 'cos I love the Kuva Fortress.

It's disheartening to see that the amount of bonus damage on the Kuva Weapons is subject to RNG, and would like to see a mechanism for the player to increase this bonus up to the maximum (e.g. by spending Kuva, or having defeated Liches drop a special resource, which could be spent on increasing the bonus).

I concur with those calling for the new Kuva Armour (and Colour Pallettes) to made available separately from the Relics and Requiem Mods. I'm happy enough grinding the Requiem stuff, and since I won't spend that much Platinum just to get the Armour (although I'd like it), I won't be buying the big bundle.

It takes a heckuva lot of Murmers to reveal the required Requiem Mods, I add my voice to those requesting this be reduced.

And I'm a little perplexed why the Kuva Lich is showing up in my missions before I even have any mods on my Parazon.
If I blow away 1/3 of its health, I get a prompt to use the Parazon, but when I did that it broke my back and went up to level 2.
If it simply kills me (disconcertingly, it appears to be able to one-shot my Hildryn through her overshields), the Lich doesn't level up.
Am I supposed to run away from it? Use it for practice? I can't defeat it without the Requiem mods, so why it even pop up when I don't have any equipped? What it for?
 

Generally, though, this Lich stuff seems liek pretty good fun. 🙂

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Il y a 14 heures, Knicklichtjedi a dit :

I started playing the update and I have some really important feedback.

Please remove the ability to buy all the new Requiem Mods with one purchase of a bundle. Even if its >800 Platinum, that is a really bad decision in my opinion.
The amount of work you need to get all Requiem mods is immens and a fast-skip for all that grind seems unfair to everyone that doesnt want to pay that price.
The relic packs are kinda fine, because its only 4 relics and you still rely on RNG to get the exact mod you want, but if you can buy relic packs over and over that is a bit wrong as well. Requiem mods should feel like a lot of work, because they give you access to powerfull Kuva weapons and the bundle allows to skip that entire aquisition process.

Ive been farming for a few hours now and I got only one mod and it might take me at least a week now to complete the entire collection.
So please, please remove at least the mods from the bundle as soon as possible!

I fear it is their intention to rely on this rng grind. They know how random and frustrating it can be, so offering the quick solution for some plat is a profitable move. Feel´s pretty bad, DE, i thought better of you.

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34 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

How DO you pull off a Mercy Kill? I've not seen a prompt for it, the Patch Notes made no mention of it and I have so far only been able to do that to Thralls... For whom it seems to be mandatory anyway.

Finishers and mercy kills are two different things, first work like before, by grabbing a stealth kill or opening them up via abilities, just the prompt is now on X instead of E. The whole micromanagement of range I've never had an issue with so I maintain I'd rather have it moved back to E than for specific frames to have a minor benefit.

As for mercy kills, they happen at random when a target is at low enough health without being already dead. I've only had it happen once so far. Trouble is a lot of the general mobs die rather quickly, so the likelihood that we're ever seeing them is fairly low unless you're at a level where they take some chewing through.

Edited by Ulvra

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Might come back to edit with proper content later, but, for now, a quote from a different but related thread to summarize the overall experience.
 

19 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Grinding RNG for the sake of engaging in more RNG might just be my breaking point.

Also, thank you @Steel_Rook for that reply there. Stated nearly all that  I would've written, but I feel just leaving an emoji reaction was not enough appreciation.

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vor 59 Minuten schrieb NoLife:

Disagree. Regular Melee in most cases is enough to kill and flows faster in combat. Excal for example benefits greatly from Finishers being a different button, as his blind damage boost can be properly taken advantage of with regular melee attacks without needing to micromanage your distance from the enemy to avoid a slow finisher animation wasting your time.

There something even better. DE should stop playing with Controllers and give us fully customizable Buttonlayout for keyboard incl. a separate assignable Finisher Button and not forcing us to swallow their "Vision"

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Not sure if this is how it was intended to work, but yesterday I was soloing Plato when my first larvling spawned. killed it, got the steam achievement, completed the mission, went back to orbiter and the Lich gave me a call. Ok so far. Then I ran the mission again solo and another larvling spawned. Are they supposed to spawn when you already have a lich?

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6 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

There something even better. DE should stop playing with Controllers and give us fully customizable Buttonlayout for keyboard incl. a separate assignable Finisher Button and not forcing us to swallow their "Vision"

Aye, I forgot to mention that option. A customisable option for finisher prompts would be a lovely thing to have and would satisfy either side in the argument.

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Anyone felt the delay in fishing right after retrieving your spear or fish? you can't move or throw your spear at another fish until that delay finishes.

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The RNG involved with Liches is far too heavy for it to be in any way engaging in the long term, especially if it stays this way.

1. Spawned Lich Weapons are Random
2. Bonus Kuva Weapon stats are Random
3. Requiem Mods have 3 uses
(Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?)
4. RNG for earning specific Requiem Relics from Kuva Missions
5. RNG for earning the correct Requiem mod from those Relics
6. Grinding for Void traces to upgrade said Relics
7. Hunting for 15-20+ missions downing Thralls to figure out which Mods you need to use
8. Attempting to use said mods in random orders of three on the Lich

(Rinse and Repeat)

All in all, and after having a life outside of the game at the end of the day, I don't see myself getting to involved with Kuva Liches as they are right now. The idea and the imposing threat they bring to the table, or the one that was advertised, is a good thing to have in Warframe. However, my first encounter with my Lich lasted no more than 10 seconds, of me tickling him with a Baza, just to run up to him and have him insta-kill me. If that's how every interaction with the Liches will go, especially after so much of a grind, then I don't think this will pan out.

That being said, Liches have potential for sure. The real threat they bring to the table at least for the time being however, is the fear of having to grind for 4+ hours just to attempt to kill it. With there also being so many Kuva Weapons / Possible damage combinations, on top of Ephemeras?... I just don't see Liches being worthwhile in the long run.  Don't get me wrong though, I want them to be a meaningful piece of content. But being around Warframe this long, I just fear that they'll recede into the shadows after a majority of players either quit because the grind was too much, or after they get all of what they want.

After all is said and done, and they're seen as more of a bore than a challenge for those that have been there-done that, after all weapons/cosmetics are earned, what value will there be in facing them any longer? I really don't want to see them as a cast-away, one-and-done activity in the game. But I fear that it will play out that way.

If the horrendous grind doesn't deter players, then the pain of rolling a new Lich with the same weapon you just got, just to have to go through it all again will.

Going to at least try to finish off my first Lich before giving some final thoughts on it, but I only have so much time this weekend to spend grinding. And I'm not looking forward to the farm that awaits, especially after seeing other players' feedback.

Edited by AEP8FlyBoy
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To say it most politely, this new update simply makes me sad. It feels wrong on various levels and I don´t even know where to start.

Smallest addition first, the Parazon. I don´t know who ever thought that was needed, because it never was. Starting with the looks of it, I know, imitating good game contents from other games isn´t a bad thing in general, but this thing just looks like a cheap ripoff from Assassins Creed, with no reason to exist in a game like Warframe. You want finishers? We had tons of great finishers with all the different weapons in this game, while the new parazon finishers look just so boring and generic. And to justify it by announcing it as a general tool just leads us to the second bad part of the Parazon: the hacking. You know, these fancy Warframes are so highly developed that they even get to have fingers! And it felt so much more natural to see Warframes tip on buttons to hack - instead of ramming a freaking blade into a console, stirring and turning it around until it magically gets hacked. Also last but not least on the Parazon topic: markings on enemies that indicate a possible Parazon-finisher are just one of these HUD-elements that are utterly useless and disturb the graphical immersion.

Now to the Kuva Lich system I actually don´t have to say much that I didn´t already read in this forum. The RNG and the amount of time into it is just demotivating. It takes way too many influenced nodes and many dozens of killed thralls to unlock even a single hit, when you in fact need three hints in total, but thats only the timetaking yet safe part. Doing Kuva Siphon missions to MAYBE get the right relic, so you can do a Kuva Fortress Rift mission to MAYBE get the right reward out of it, until you finally have the three needed requiem mods, so then you can engage your Lich and pray to the RNG gods that you find the correct order of requiem mods fast or else you have to fight him again and again working through all the possible orders. That whole stuff sounds utterly frustating on it´s own, but it doesn´t end there, because of course these mods do have charges, so after using a mod to kill 3 liches, you just have to deal with all the RNG again to get that mod again. Offering requiem mod packs for platinum to give a pay-to-skip-frustration option is a damn cheap move and you know it.

Finally the melee rework. I know you folks try your very best to improve the game mechanics, but I think you lost orientation by now. You removed the direct equipping of melee, because it disturbed the flow, but then manual blocking wasn't a thing anymore, so now you brought it back with - guess what - the direct equipping.I appreciate a lot that you finally removed channeling again and went back to charge attacks, but controls are a mess by now. Two buttons for light and heavy melee attacks, one button for full-equipping melee, reusing secondary fire button as manual block suddenly and optional light attack also on primary fire button. I wasn´t much of a fan of the instant-switch animations between guns and melee in the rework before, but at least the gameplay felt alot smoother than now. With the new update you have to bother with full-equipping melee again just to block, denying you any possibility to smoothly switch between melee and ranged combat. Also as a matter of fact, the combos make you feel like you want to embrace the melee 1.0 gameplay again: don´t use any combos at all, only standard moves and heavy attack, because seriously the new combos don´t feel satisfying and mechanical useful at all. The new combo system is way too inaccurate in its controls, executing the wanted mix of combos takes alot of tries and doesn´t feel rewarding at all.

Quick note on the special dodging in melee: Maybe you could do it for aiming with ranged weapons. In ranged combat dodging over smaller distances would feel alot better, because you could work with cover way more efficiently. At the state of now, while aiming and shooting a dodge roll to the side aimed for a nearby crate to cover behind simply tosses you past 2 crates and leaves you five meters to the side yet still completely open again.

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23 minutes ago, Ulvra said:

Finishers and mercy kills are two different things, first work like before, by grabbing a stealth kill or opening them up via abilities, just the prompt is now on X instead of E. The whole micromanagement of range I've never had an issue with so I maintain I'd rather have it moved back to E than for specific frames to have a minor benefit.

Wait, why would that be X? Did they add yet another new keybind? I have my keys pretty severely rebound, so if you're using default binds then I don't know which buttons those refer to. Do I no longer perform executions with the melee key? What about ground executions? I guess if they moved the keys around, that would explain why I wasn't able to pull those off yesterday.

 

24 minutes ago, Ulvra said:

As for mercy kills, they happen at random when a target is at low enough health without being already dead. I've only had it happen once so far. Trouble is a lot of the general mobs die rather quickly, so the likelihood that we're ever seeing them is fairly low unless you're at a level where they take some chewing through.

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't quite follow here. They happen at random, but when doing what? Say I'm meleeing an enemy, and I have a random chance of "mercy-killing" them per melee strike, or will they light up with an execution prompt somehow? Why wasn't THAT in the patch notes?

 

25 minutes ago, CxLL said:

Also, thank you @Steel_Rook for that reply there. Stated nearly all that  I would've written, but I feel just leaving an emoji reaction was not enough appreciation.

You're quite welcome. I'm just frustrated because it seems like more and more "engagement" is being moved away from core game mechanics and into the treadmill of RNG grind. That way lies nothing but burnout. Attempting to push people into playing beyond what they're comfortable with and what they enjoy might work short-term, but it does lasting damage to most player's feelings towards the game in general. Disgruntled players resentfully grinding content through grit teeth doesn't make for a positive community.

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Ok so I just created my first Lich and decided to go on a hunt. So here's my feedback:
1. Level increase in controlled territory is a good thing, I was getting bored by now and suddenly there's a challenge I can't rush through.
2. Requiem murmur bar needs to fill out faster, timewalling us is one thing, this is just beyond insanity.
3. Mercy kills should be immediately patched so our weapon dmg does not apply when the target is at our mercy. I run one mission with Soma Prime and lemme tell ya, there was nothing merciful about seeing every single Mercy target bleeding out insanely fast. Make them fall to the ground like capture targets, otherwise players will be too frustrated to bother. Especially since using powerful weapons on those missions will make them die even faster.
4. A notification that the areas level has increased would also be nice, I jumped into one mission thinking it's going to be 12-14 (Lich appeared on Ceres) well boy how wrong I was, seeing them spawn with 65+ level.

All in all, the Nemesis Lich system is a great concept for a game like Warframe but the current execution of this concept leaves me sad enough to go back to running normal relics and doing Nightwave stuff. Just like with the raids DE, you had a great idea but made it so over the top people won't find it any good. And instead Grineer we'll redirect our efforts on doing Corpus only missions.

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SoW had this cool thing which Warframe doesn't have: you could start hunting down bosses right from the start. Right now we're not only have five layers of RNG just to get to the Lich, but also we only have one, while in SoW you had a variety of them. Only RNG it had was loot. Everything else was entertaining. Right now you can get a Lich with a weapon you don't want. Only one.

Time gates are not fun and the fact that game becomes more pay2win is incredibly disappointing. 

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