(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Sylfein]

All of what i'll be saying are ideas, not everything can be done, and not everything should be put together.

I usually don't give any feedback or ideas (wrote just a bunch since i began to play, when there were still keys and 4revives a day 😂) but i'll put a little something, for once, because i think The Old Blood is a good begining, but too far and too grindy (or at least rng) from what it should be.
I'm on my 13^th lich, had 4 Ayanga and 2 Brakk, the rest is okay. I think i'm just gonna write ideas (from me, and some that i've seen) 'cause putting everything together and be "lector friendly" will be too hard otherwise, but i'll try a bit.

1)Creating a Lich and her weapon :

• We should be able to chose the weapon, as we can chose the element from wich frame we use. This wouldn't be a problem if the % of element wasn't RNG or if we could level it up by any mean. Maybe the choice of weapon we kill the larvling with (a primary for a primary,etc...), even better, if I kill a larvling with a kuva tonkor (before pressing X and creating the lich) the lich will have a tonkor (with the element chose by the frame you use, and the % still RNG).
• The larvling could also be shown with the weapon it'll have when transformed in lich (maybe even the ephemera, or something showing it'll get one). In that case, the grindy part would be on the larvling part, and not on getting rid ASAP of a lich you don't want the weapon nor the crappy % element.
• We need something to upgrade % of kuva weapons if you keep the RNG on them.

 

2)Farming requiems in relics :

We farm them almost only from requiem. It's not like regular relics where you get something you don't want and you can trade it, sell it for ducats or give it to friends...Here everything stay in our hands only, but very little is useful nor used. Even if I want to farm Riven (RNG in sortie and expensive in trade usually) it's 10(rng) slivers for 1 riven every week. I don't see myself going in requiem fissure only to pile up sliver and come once a week to get the "free" riven.

• The drop tables should be changed. Exilus weapon adapter really aren't that good to take, instead of Kuva, Sliver or Requiem; plus you can farm them with syndicates, wich gives you 100% chance to get them, you also get medallions, points and ressources that you can use as you wish. Exilus weapon adapter should stay only as syndicate reward imo. As i've seen in commentary, the rare reward could be the 2 requiems together. Or there could be less rewards in the relic : yes Kuva is good but we can already farm it in Kuva siphon, Kuva flood and Kuva Survival. And ayatan ember stars...humm, of course it's harder to get than regular ones, but endo isn't a problem nowadays, cause we get so much sculptures...

3)Farming thralls/murmurs :

After the last update, i think it's pretty fast now, the problem is that you go in controlled territory ONLY for them, nothing more. I even found myself, after my 5-6 lich, avoiding Exterminate missions because i find them too repetitive than the other (and half of lich missions are exterminations), just to get 5-10 thralls, and maybe a lich (but we'll see that later).

• There should be an affinity multiplier, or ressource multiplier/booster, or something, in those Controlled territory missions, something more than "There-thralls-must kill-for lich"
• Maybe as i've seen proposed by someone, something closer to Shadow of Mordor. Killing HARD ennemies to get one of the 3 requiems. At X thralls killed, a node unlocks and you got a big fight (like Kela de Thaym or something like this).

 

Parazon and requiems :

Parazon is a good addition. It's just strange that it appeared out of nowhere (maybe tutorial explain it, but as an old player, i didn't see it) and is used for hacking devices (yes), and corpses (wait..what?). Mods on it are "okay", only have 3 so far, it adds some utility. Then we got REQUIEMS, named runes used to kill liches.

• Make requiems refillable, with kuva. Or make them not used, relative of the level of the lich.
• Don't count empty requiems on reward window in requiem fissures.
• It's nice to be able to find out a requiem without murmurs, but sometimes you have requiems 2 and 3, and then you wait, wait, wait, for your lich to appear each time (when people don't block them, and when you don't get comboed to death). We need something to "help" her appear. Maybe a beacon, bought to Palladino, with kuva, because apparently kuva is at the center of The Old Blood.

 

Lichs fights :

2 scenarios. You cut the lich into pieces like sweet cheese, or she takes 0 damages (even when you use her weakness). Had a lich with electric weak, took Chroma, lanka with 12k electricity, buffed myself, she wasn't taking more damages than with my kitgun wich she had resistances on. Another thing, people not wanting to kill their lich because of X reason. A Lich is supposed to be a Nemesis. So make it real, make a real fight, where we have to watch carefully her abilities and her weaknesses. And stop making them appear 300m behind, alone in a corner when we are at extraction.

• Too many people don't want to kill their lich because of leveling it up, putting her on more planets, etc...One thing : keep the lvl up on death, bug make the lich max lvl to more than 5, and MOST OF ALL, make us gain something from leveling her up. Be it %element, big kuva reward, chance to not use requiem, anything, but as it is, that's not "good" to level her up. Personally i don't care, each time i see mine, i try to kill her, but some people are afraid, even if now it gives murmur, and i understand it (so i go play in solo when i reach 2/3 requiems)
• Make the lich really vulnerable to her weakness, and "resistant" to her resistances, not almost invulnerable. Cause it's either 0 damage (invulnerability), 5-100 (resistance) or 1/3 health bar dissapearing. I find myself using my strongest weapons and not watching weak/res/invul or op damage/tank frames like Mesa, Atlas, Chroma, Inaros.
• Some lich combos shouldn't exist, or tweak down her damages. Happened too many times when i got tp'd, pin down, then grabbed and died, even when being careful. Melee grab damage is a bit too much. It's meant to keep our distance, okay, but when you see that it's with melee that you deal the more damages (or just deal damages), well there is no other option.
• Maybe we could get a message inbox like stalker, but signaling that next mission she will appear 100%, or a node with another color/name to show it. Else her apparitions are a bit too random, even when Fuming, it's possible to do 3-4 missions without her coming (so wasting time). A friend of mine did almost 20 missions without seeing his.
• Liches need to have better abilities, or at least they need to use them more. Actually they are just firing their weapon wich sometimes can one shot (hello tonkor) and sometimes using an ability. Moreover, make more pools of abilities. Each type of lich have 3 abilities in common, plus another one (wich is either Tp, Lurch, Vault or Stampede)

 

Lich rewards :

This, fellow tennos, is the biggest problem. The reward is too small for everything we've gone through. You create a lich, you see it's not the weapon that you want (or worth, you already got it 2-3 times in a row), or the %element is garbage, but you have to kill it to change, and hope for a better one.

• Allow the lich to have more levels, and each level she gains % or her weapon. Yes some people will have a lich starting at 50% and other at 20%, but at least you can up it, instead of killing the lich and hoping for better. (out of 13 lich, got 1 at 50%, 3 around 40%, the other between 20% and 30%)
• The system wich allow us to merge kuva weapons is good but the element isn't kept. Let me explain : kuva ayanga 20%radiation+kuva ayanga 60%fire; you can't put the first Ayanga to 60%radiation, you only keep the best. So if it's "good" only if you farm 1 weapon with 1 element...see the problem 😓?
• Maybe put a second option on kuva weapons, crushing them in something (lich dust/powder?) that is used to up the % of other kuva weapons.
• Possibly make the lich kill rewarding kuva or at least a biggest reward than just a weapon (wich can be bad % or useless)

I'm still missing a lot of things i think, and many have other ideas, but i've been on this text for too long already. I'll still continue liches cause it needs a lot to disgust me of something (and it's still fun, plus there is potential), but maybe at my 30th-40th, even before, i'm just gonna surrend and stop farming them because it's too much RNG. And let's say you want at least 3-4 kuva weapons at 60% (because you want to have the strongest weapon, that's just logic) well i think the grind and time will be infinite. Last thing (seen above somewhere), make it that you can chose the weapon you get at the end, like, fight the lich on Kuva fortress, in an armory (idk) and at the end you have the entire pannel of weapons (but for this there are other things to do like not showing weapon on lich, tweaking somehow the element, and the %, etc...). Maybe you can add a red veil (the one when creating a lich) like the radiation color when in rad sorties, putting us more in a kuva/lich vibe.

On that note, i still want to say that Warframe is a good game, but needs a lot of improvements (*cough* endgame), and some polish. Just listen to the community and it'll be a lot easier to make good updates 😆

LOVE_{from a fellow Tenno that never talks}

Edited November 14, 2019 by Sylfein
Adding information

[Duo_Strikes]

i made a post in glitches about the kuva liches, if you need to read it through or see any evidence, i'll put the link to it here but to sum it up, my lich is basically unkillable, i vanquish them but they come back at the end of the mission to tax me anyway and they live after that, i don't get my stuff back either and my charges on my murmurrs don't disappear as well, i've also reported on a kuva lich glitch involving host migration that duplicates your kuva lich and if you try to kill the duplicate, you softlock the game, i'll put both of those forum posts so you can read them but i really hope the glitches are fixed soon.

 

 

[Ezariel-Omega]

I just wanted to offer my feedback on the Kuva Lich system. I don't know if this has been said before and I won't be monitoring this thread, so if anyone has any commentary on what I said please feel free to message me directly.

After seeing the initial handling of the Kuva Lich system and many aspects of it, I avoided getting one. Now, I am quite happy I did as it has been made voluntary. For a starting player like me, MR10 and I don't think I even have 200 hours yet, it can be very debilitating to get one of these things and have it tax your winnings on a given planet. If you do not know what you are getting into, you're basically stuck. My very small clan has people playing Destiny 2 now because they are being taxed, can't get past the requirements to get rid of the Lich, etc. It's not fun for them now because they are locked into this very grindy, very random system.

My suggestion is a very simple one. Please create a method for those who have already gotten a Lich early on or who get one later, to dispose of them. While this could cause people to burn through undesirable Lichs, imposing a cooldown prior to being able to obtain another Lich might solve that. Now that its completely voluntary, people like my clan members could come back and keep playing. They could dispose of their Lich and if another one comes along they can say "Nope, no thanks. Go about your business." We can go back to the other content we enjoy.

While I have no commentary on the content itself, having not experienced it, as a new gamer those are my thoughts. Hopefully it's helpful.

 

Thanks.

[Mu_Gera]

Some parazon mods, like live wire or blood for life, should activate on both hacking and performing a mercy. The modding space is limited on parazon and the effects are very specific with some having only a chance of proc'ing, so you don't really get much practicality for the specific conditions.

[Gravitus123]

Dont make the lich contracts tradable for platinum either trade them for another contract or just free i dont want the market to be broken even further like how rivens did 

[DeeDeetheSpy]

I love to have greater verity. Not just in the liches themselves but the minions too. I am all about giving the liches warframe powers and more of them and the minions each get a random one of their powers. 

 

 

[Ikusias]

The fact that many players don't want and will not engage with kuva liches related content should be a big honking alarm siren for DE that they really missed the target with this update and fell quite below expectations after all the hipe for empyrean and the nemesis sistem...

When players first ask for a way to avoid engaging in content (opt in) and then also for a way to opt out of it... well there's a big problem with said content

[Mos-Eisley]

I dont "farm" things in Warframe, or at least rarely have. I dont try to "grind" out all of the newest content as soon as it arrives. I've only went after 3 liches at this point. the first two had the Kraken, the third the Drakgoon. I know there are a lot of complaints about the level of RNG involved in the relics and parazon mods, but personally, that isnt a huge detractor to me, because I'm not generally farming for a specific item. Ill run some missions to get relics, and then some to crack them open, not a big deal, I get what I get. 

Got home from work today, and was getting ready to log on to Warframe, and then thought...hrmm what to do. Get another lich...why?

What I am quite disappointed about is the fact that I need to make a choice to acquire a lich, one that will hopefully have a different weapon to acquire. But why would I do that to gain another underwhelming weapon, that I would then need to forma 5x to max it? The 5x forma was a mistake, as was the pure RNG for weapon acquisition. This really is the first time I don't even want to acquire a new weapon to try it out.

[Rev14]

I can’t be the only one who doesnt feel any challgenge about the liches? Lvl 90 missions, easier than sorties mission. To fight the liches you just have to know 2 things, wich frame can CC the liches and do not take any status weapons and from that, it’s just a press-fire until death. Nothing to think about. 
 

P.S: i still like this system since it’s a new mechanic in Warframe that give us a new experience. But this is not the challenge they promise us, even if I feel they’re in a good way too.  
 

By challenge I don’t even mean a super high level mission, but I want something that will make me go out of the auto-playing mode. A.K.A  brainless gameplay. 

The liches could have be the solution if they had more health, a better IA that use frames abilities to survive/tank/CC the tennos or even do  DPS and so, make a more intensive fight. 
 

  

[CandyManCriminal]

two ideas for lessening the RNG wall for weapons

make kuva weapons a weighted random
every time you roll a kuva weapon it should make it less likely to roll that weapon again, increasing the odds you roll a weapon you haven't gotten

OR

have thralls carrying the weapon they'd have as a lich so we can decide what weapon to go after
and have valance have a secondary mode where you can crush ANY kuva weapon into the base weapon and increase the bonus by 5% (up to whatever the max is)

[ArcKnight9202]

After thinking and reading some more, I have some more feedback to give.

I think that showing the initial bonus elemental% that the Lich will give is a mistake. It's basically a long-term disappointment to the players who already have X gun and the Lich spawns with an inferior%  elemental bonus. I think that this should be hidden until the Lich is vanquished or converted. Completed Liches will display their bonus% in their information as usual. Trading will still keep that %.

The reason for this is that Liches are grindy by nature. This isn't inherently bad. However, when someone knows, up front, that the time invested will be "wasted", it's going to annoy them. Sure, some might argue that it's worse seeing it only at the end, but, at least, the anticipation is there for a greater reward. Also, at least in my experience, disappointment with this arrangement is much more short lived. I certainly wouldn't have to stare at the same Lich for hours literally knowing it's wasting my time. Presentation can make a big difference.

*****

For another piece of feedback, I suggest another way for players to influence the Lich weapon RNG a bit. In an upcoming update, you're doing something to utilize Defiled Requiem Mods. This is awesome. I propose another use for them. Equip it to your Parazon. When used on a Lich, it will detonate their weapon, forcing them to retreat and acquire a new weapon(perhaps, also immune to being a duplicate?). This gives more uses for Defiled Mods as well as giving players another opportunity to roll something they might desire. This could be limited to once per Lich to prevent abuse or left totally open.

Edited November 13, 2019 by ArcKnight9202

[Suojelusp3rkele]

Parazon is affected by attack speed modifiers on your melee weapon.

Haven't tested if any other mods work, I doubt.

However speed does affect it. Pondering if increased speed might have some effect on some weird glitches with the liches? Like de-syncs, failed attempts, etc.

[Suojelusp3rkele]

Another comment for some improvements about lich generation.

Would be really cool if the location where you generate lich would affect how the thralls/enemies/lich itself look. If you got your lich on Uranus for example then the lich would have armors that look more like the ones you see grineer wearing on Uranus. Thralls and enemies would now be based on the Sealab grineers.

It's a bit weird that if you got your lich on Saturn and then every enemy on thrall hunt missions is now based on arid grineer, since you can't even get a lich on Mars where arid grineers spawn. 

Additionally it'd be just REALLY over the top and nice if primes would generate slightly different liches as well. Imagine Vor- tier liches with void keys and golden decorations on their armor. Just visual upgrade.

And another thing about the abilities.

Really hoping we see more abilities for the liches in the future as well. Not going to elaborate much on that.

Dual progenitors maybe? Like Grendel could act as Impact/toxin progenitor. What if lich generated from grendel would boast 1-2 abilities from the impact set and last 1-2 abilities from the toxic set? The weapon generation could still be based on the first element thus impact, but only the lich abilities would change. Wouldn't still be totally random set of abilities, but it'd be nice to have more than 7 sets of abilities for the liches.

[Luxpluff]

3 hours ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

After thinking and reading some more, I have some more feedback to give.

I think that showing the initial bonus elemental% that the Lich will give is a mistake.

Changing that is irrelevant since it does not offer a solution to the problem. It doesn't matter if we see the bonus before or after vanquishing, we should be able to upgrade those bonus via the weapon merging system.

[Colyeses]

Invisible projectiles that OHKO players aren't 'challenge', they're cheating. Make Lich weapons much weaker, but give them much stronger abilities that are slower and better telegraphed so that it actually becomes based on skillful play. Look to Destiny 2 for how to design a good, challenging fight.

[AndrewScreamSoul]

On 2019-11-11 at 3:43 PM, schottlander said:

Ressurecting a Lich with Kuva sounds like a thematically appropriate concept 😄

I would like it but, I don't know if it will ever happen : |

[Fiedra]

I want more Lich personalities, hearing the same 2 (never got the third one) is getting on my nerves a bit. Figured we'd get more at launch, but I'm alright with waiting for more, I understand the importance of getting the mechanics out to people first.

[Colyeses]

Since RNG is the name of the game, let me put them out there...

A) Getting a relic
B) Getting the right relic
C) Getting the right reward from the relic
D) Getting the lich to spawn
E) Getting the requiem order right
F) Getting the right weapon
G) Getting a good % bonus

As mindless and simple as murmur farming is, it is legitimately, far and away, the best designed part of this system. Brainless 'kill enemies' is the best designed part. It's not even designed at all, and it's the best design. Everything about this system was presented as an impressive system, and came out as something horrible. Last night I was playing new Vauban and thoroughly enjoying myself. This afternoon I was forced to play Gara because the Lich does way too much damage, and it sucked all the fun out of gameplay to the extent that I'm wondering if I should just uninstall until everything is fixed. 

RNG D should be removed. The Lich must simply have a location where he is guaranteed to show up so the player has the choice to attack them directly and forcibly engage them if they want to. Do not make players run several missions equipped with boring min-max gear because RNG.

RNG E is mostly a problem because of the failstate forced on the player for guessing wrong (And due to RNG D). This is seriously the most basic principle of game design: If the player didn't do anything wrong, don't punish them. Either RNG E needs to be removed, or liches need to not hard-kill you on getting the order wrong. The original idea was to have the lich die a non-permanent death, hence the term 'lich'. Put that in. Because right now it's not a lich, it's a hacker.

RNG F and G both need to be removed. Not allowing sequential duplicates is not enough. Players need control over what weapon they spawn in, and the % needs to be fixed at 50/55, or be controllable in another way. Valence transfer isn't worth anything if you spawn low % weapons. 

The lich fight itself is also not good. Because it's numerically based, instead of skill, it exemplifies the worst that Warframe has to offer. It perfectly accentuates the biggest flaws.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Colyeses

[VoadorHolandes]

What's the deal with the liches spawn rates? It takes forever now to get them pissed off.

Here I am: two and a half murmur bars filled and he showed up only two times? Ever since the last hotfix, It took me 10 missions for him to appear once he hit lvl 5.

And whatever happened to thralls dropping Kuva? It was a much better system.

[Colyeses]

I will reiterate: Lich weapons are way too broken. Even with Gara's 90% DR, I still got oneshot. I was in a party with two Inaros. They both also got oneshot. This is demented, and flat-out invalidates almost all warframes. 

[basgemm]

Important stuff to me: I would also love if the liches you gave mercy too would help you in intel gathering; maybe make em show up on communications every now and then whether you're ingame or not and let them passively get a few murmurs for you, then there'd be reason to amass a large following of liches, and it could play into empyreon easier that way while still having a benefit for before empyrion releases.

 

KUVA LICHES: their designs are nice, VO is great especially the friendly voice lines, I don't like my reward (weapon) being rng based for how long it takes to acquire, I would prefer receiving data to then use to choose one of the weapons of the liches repertoire to construct myself, or being able to choose from a group of liches which to fight, or maybe being able to re-roll my lich without wasting the next 2-4 hours killing it.
examples: kuva weapons aren't supposed to be as good as primes, but for example sake, it takes me a good 1~6 hours to farm a fresh release prime weapon (not including construction but that is time not spent in the game) but we're expected to spend the same amount of time to get a weapon that we get no choice in choose? that we just have to hope is what we want? No, It's unfun, I'd much rather have a currency earned by saving or killing liches to then purchase their weapons or ephemera, 

New mods: they're fine, no major feedback or gripes, annoyed at the CO nerf though the long game crit nerf was sorta nice

The parazon: it's fine it fills it's purpose as a stabby USB, it's mods; fine, Requiems not so much, I know this is something stated prior but the Requiems should not be charge based at all; you already need the relics to get them, I would also love if the liches you gave mercy too would help you in intel gathering; maybe make em show up on communications every now and then whether you're ingame or not and let them passively get a few murmurs for you, then there'd be reason to amass a large following of liches, and it could play into empyreon easier that way while still having a benefit for before empyrion releases.

[thurmack]

Please consider allowing players to run Void Relic missions under Lich influence, maybe with a +50 level adjustment for added difficulty. It would be nice to be able to crack relics while hunting thralls.

[vaarnaaarne]

I'd like to echo an earlier suggestion:

Valance Transfer should allow scrapping any Kuva weapon. It would eliminate a huge future annoyance by eliminating unreasonable grind repeats. This is in addition to simply removing the random % element of all Kuva weapons and making all of them set in stone 60% so they're guaranteed to be worth something instead of being glorified MR fodder. Valance still serves a purpose as it allows for switching the elemental bonus, which IS a very valuable function for weapons that require 5 forma to max, and serves as a good reason to go through the 1-2 hour effort of killing another Lich.

[VentiGlondi]

I like that the kuva thralls inherit an ability from the lich, but it's a bit disappointing that it's just one ability. It's the most boring one out of the bunch as well.

It would be nice if the thralls' ability pool expanded as the lich levels up.

Also I really really hope you are going to add more personalities for kuva liches. Two is not nearly enough.

[Arsonistic]

The Good:
Melee feels a lot better to use. Being able to intertwine combos and the general flow is a big step in the right direction. There are still stances with awkward attacks, but most are pretty usable now.

The Bad:

Liches have terrible rewards. The long grind would be a lot more okay if you gained something useful other than the Kuva weapons from the Liches. Something like... I dunno.. Kuva?

Heavy Attacks are slow and awkward. They can be made faster with mods, but then you're giving up mod slots that could have been used to buff all your melee attacks. It would be great if Heavy Attacks weren't so separated from normal attacks in modding, like for example if Speed (Wind-Up Time) scaled with +Attack Speed mods.

Blood Rush makes all other Crit Chance mods useless. It gives a bonus multitudes larger and is the cornerstone of any Crit build on melee.

Melee Crit builds are incompatible with Heavy Attacks. Blood Rush is the only reason to use Crit builds on melee (because without it Crit builds are weak), and since the bonus scales with combo you don't ever want to get rid of your combo stacks, i.e: you don't ever want to use Heavy Attacks. And no, this isn't solved by Combo Efficiency, cuz nobody is gonna sacrifice a mod slot that could have been used for damage instead.

Melee is a lot weaker for endgame content. With the strongest mods nerfed melee in general is a lot weaker for endurance runs, to the point where it's pretty much unusable.