(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[nslay]

Can we please have a Vay Hek-style Lich? Same voice actor and all? I need a Lich to be screaming at me when he/she takes over territory and shows up in my game.

Now picture this... Wolf spawning in the game with the Wolf howl... except it;s a Vay Hek-like Lich screaming.

EDIT: Also Tyl Regor-like hyperintelligent Lich would be fun too!

Edited November 15, 2019 by nslay

[RageGoria]

Might be irrelevant to the gameplay, but i kinda want to have the converted liches to be more... socializable?

i want the liches to hang out at my ship, i want to see what they are doing, i want to see them play with my kubrow, i want to have them clean my ship like one of those domestik drones. idk, i just want to see them whenever i want without having to look at my codex.

Being able to bring them on missions together like a companion would also be a fun thing to do, well sike, maybe converted lich customizations would do great too.

Having multiple converted liches appear on one stage would also be rad, idk, this is becoming like shadows of war, and damn i love that game, the reason i returned after months was also because of the kuva lich update.

Edited November 15, 2019 by RageGoria

[Colyeses]

19 minutes ago, RageGoria said:

i want the liches to hang out at my ship

I think this was planned for Empyrean, which the lich system was originally designed for before it got rushed out. 

[thurmack]

On 2019-11-14 at 1:56 AM, Colyeses said:

The lich content has nothing to do with skill, it's purely number crunching. I liked the murmur farming, I liked facing high level enemies. The lich is just unbreakable and oneshots everything. A full team of a Wukong, two Inaros and a Gara were constantly getting downed and couldn't scratch him. It's just broken.

And the fact that it's broken and so damn poorly designed is the reason I can't play WF right now

Of course the choice to play or not is your prerogative, but as I've noted I've managed to kill several powerful max rank liches both on my own and with public teams, so your assessment is hardly objective. By no means am I suggesting you put time or effort into rebuilding or strategizing if that isn't something you enjoy, but your assertion that it is "bad design" appears to be subjective at best, and potentially fallacious given the broad range of counterexamples.

[Colyeses]

7 minutes ago, thurmack said:

Of course the choice to play or not is your prerogative, but as I've noted I've managed to kill several powerful max rank liches both on my own and with public teams, so your assessment is hardly objective. By no means am I suggesting you put time or effort into rebuilding or strategizing if that isn't something you enjoy, but your assertion that it is "bad design" appears to be subjective at best, and potentially fallacious given the broad range of counterexamples.

Something being doable does not mean it is well designed or poorly designed. A fight with a blink-happy bulletsponge with invisible oneshot projectiles is not good design. I don't think you can find a single person who disagrees with that.

[Ikusias]

7 minutes ago, thurmack said:

Of course the choice to play or not is your prerogative, but as I've noted I've managed to kill several powerful max rank liches both on my own and with public teams, so your assessment is hardly objective. By no means am I suggesting you put time or effort into rebuilding or strategizing if that isn't something you enjoy, but your assertion that it is "bad design" appears to be subjective at best, and potentially fallacious given the broad range of counterexamples.

The "nemesis" sistem as it is currently is bad design as it doesn't offer any integration in the contest of regular mission, no narrative and low sense of accomplishment.

Currently is another self contained repetitive grind with no future once all weapons are farmed.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

They got to fix the narrative of the kuva lich system. Now we are slave traders, smh. 

[FoxyKabam]

so, instead of just allowing players to trade lich weapons

just like how we can already trade rank 0 syndicate or baro weapons

we have to

1. beat the lich and convert them
2. build a new "lich room" in your dojo
3. trade the lich
4. the new owner then has to do step one all over again

why is this convoluted mess the way to go? it makes no sense thematically

 

none of this solves or even relieves getting a bad roll or dupe either and having to go through the lich slog all over again just for another attempt

currently what do you do with garbage lich weapons? no one wants them when 60% rolls are a thing, you can't convert them into anything useful, so you just sell them for credits.

I'm sure this is all made to be a slog to counter the "content drought", can't say you don't have anything to do when you could be wading through the lich mess.

it'd work if they were fun and rewarding

they are not, what ever marks the liches were made to hit, have not been hit

 

warframe would be better off without them imo

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by FoxyKabam

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Ikusias said:

The "nemesis" system as it is currently is bad design as it doesn't offer any integration in the contest of regular mission, no narrative and low sense of accomplishment.

Even worse than having no narrative or accomplishment, the active participation in the system punishes the player at every turn with automatic unavoidable deaths as well as massive difficulty spikes in missions for no greater benefit.

[Colyeses]

9 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Even worse than having no narrative or accomplishment, the active participation in the system punishes the player at every turn with automatic unavoidable deaths as well as massive difficulty spikes in missions for no greater benefit.

I will say one thing in favour of the system: Having a large quantity of lvl 60+, 80+, 100+ content is good, adding more weight to the combat and somewhat diminishing the prevalence of super quick wipe tactics. I enjoyed going up against higher level enemies. 

If the liches weren't a thing, this would be good.

[shootaman777]

Haven't obtained all of the Parazon mods yet (and will update this post as I acquire and test each), but here's some Parazon feedback from what I've tested:
- -Hit and Run is an amazing mod that makes the Kuva Lich slog more bearable by letting the player maneuver faster from one Thrall to the next. 
- -Intruder is garbage.  It seems to slow down the cursor speed around the wheel in Grineer hacking, making every hack take longer.  Even if there's an open slot on someone's Parazon, they should not run it. 
- -Blood for Ammo is... alright, I guess?  Have been using it since Parazon day 1, and it has occasionally been useful, so I suppose it's okay. 
- -Blood for Life is, well... not great.  If a player has nothing else to slot into their Parazon, they would slot this into it.  Otherwise, since Parazon finishers are a tier of rarity beyond rare on non-Thrall enemies, this is not viable for a health orb build potentially with Health Conversion.  This could use a buff of some sort, for sure. 
- -Untraceable is a godsend.  It makes spy missions a cakewalk for any Warframe, which allows for more variety in Warframes that can be unironically brought to Spy missions.  However, it makes stealth Warframes even less relevant than they already are, so I'd expect Ash, Ivara, Limbo, Loki, and Octavia to become less used.  Then again, I doubt many people will be willing to go through the RNG fest on Pago, Kuva Fortress.  Which brings me to the next mod. 
- -Runtime.  How I wish I could get one of these from the Kuva Fortress Spy mission to pair it with Untraceable.  But I can't, because of the dilution of the drop tables on Pago.  Runtime and Untraceable are both rotation C drops with the same drop chance of 7.01% each.  Interestingly enough, Stretch is also in the same drop table with the same drop chance.  I've received three Untraceables and more Stretches than I have fingers, but no Runtime so far. 
- -Out of Sight is an interesting mod.  It helps during Lich fights, since Thralls spawn near the Lich, for a quick blind to take care of any immediate threats.  Getting killed by a non-Lich enemy when the Kuva Lich is around still counts as losing to the Kuva Lich, so this can be a lot more important than it would seem at first. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Colyeses said:

I will say one thing in favour of the system: Having a large quantity of lvl 60+, 80+, 100+ content is good, adding more weight to the combat and somewhat diminishing the prevalence of super quick wipe tactics. I enjoyed going up against higher level enemies. 

If the liches weren't a thing, this would be good.

It isn't a bad thing on its own, and I do agree that the Lich causes the problems more than anything, but the mix of the two along with the unavoidable death and level up just to drive them out of a mission and spread out has done massive damage to the community in terms of arguments like "YOU'RE BLOCKING MY LICH NOOB" and such things.

[RedPixel22]

I really don't like what you guys are doing with the lore of the liches.

They were originally supposed to die multiple times. Their voice lines reflect this. However this is not the case. They only die twice if you count the larvaling.

Additionally, trading "bounties" of liches you converted makes no sense. Why do they turn evil again if you already converted them?

I have hope that you will eventually fix at least the first issue.

[tisca]

Before that, I just played and I did not have to go to the forum.

But the lychee just freak out.

players who do not kill their lychees and thus do not allow other people to spawn.

impossible to miss not need to Lich.

All this spoils the pleasure of this moment of the game and causes severe irritation.

[MirageKnight]

Duplicate weapons are still a thing. The only thing that's changed is the dupe won't happen on consecutive Liches. This is not an adequate fix.

As a proper solution, when generating a Lich nemesis for a player, the game should do one of two things.

The first would be to check for existing Kuva weapons in the player's inventory and only equip the Lich with a random weapon that the player does NOT have. This would to prevent instances of players winding up with duplicate Kuva weapons. If the player has all the Kuva weapons that are available, the game is allowed to generate a random Kuva weapon for the Lich nemesis. There's still a bit of grind and randomness involved to get the weapon you want, but at least there's no chance of getting a duplicate weapon.

Another idea would be to give the Larva a regular version of the Kuva weapon it would get if it became a Lich nemesis. This way, players can quickly decide as to whether or not to simply gun down the Larva and let it die or trigger it so that it turns into a Lich with the appropriate Kuva weapon. The second solution gives the player more agency in what they're getting at the end of the grind.

Trading Liches is a terrible idea.

Right now, it's akin to giving your trained, pet dog to a neighbor, only it turns into a feral nightmare with rabies the second it's in their backyard.

Except it's not a dog. It's a person.

So basically you're exchanging the ownership of a sentient being (or beings) for money. In short, you've put a slave trade system in the game in which the slave immediately goes rogue on transfer and will either be hunted down and killed for an item they have or turned into an "ally" again.

Think long and hard about this, DE. Are you guys REALLY comfortable with doing this?

Attempting a kill or conversion on a Lich nemesis with the Parazon without the right mod sequence or any mods should not result in the player dying, nor should it automatically level up the Lich.

This is needlessly punishing and it's only serving to promote player toxicity due to some players - reasonably - not wanting to kill their Lich.

On defeat and a failed "hack", the Lich should only initiate an emergency teleport escape so it can fight another day. In addition, the Lich should only be able to level up if it defeats the player in an actual fight. We level our weapons and 'Frames by defeating enemies. It should be no different with a Lich. When the Lich defeats a player, it teleports away and levels up. When it levels up, it only reclaims the nodes the player previously cleared out but doesn't spread further.

Edited November 15, 2019 by MirageKnight

[SnowWarFr]

This is good work you guys are doing on the Kuva Liches. Glad you guys are decreasing the grind for Kuva Liches, in accords to feedback. I do have one thing I would like to suggest in terms of killing Kuva Liches.

Often when I encounter a Lich and I must commit a mercy kill on them, I don't like that the Kuva Lich costs me one revive turn whenever I do not have the proper Requiem Mod order regardless if it is my first or next to last encounter. It feels discouraging, and I don't quite enjoy it. I'd prefer that I false kill the lich, as in fail to kill the Lich permanently.

When the Kuva Lich was showcased on Tennocon Live, we had the impression that we could kill our Kuva Lich on a number of times, but it wouldn't kill it permanently. If this was a conscious decision, could we, as a community, get a reason on why this decision was made, at least? How come we can't falsely kill our Kuva Lich?

Good work on the Critical Chance Buff. Really made my Umbra Mods more happy! (One more step to Umbra Maining on 100lvl enemies.)

[SilentMobius]

So, I think hat the Kuva Lich system is a great addition, but I'm guessing that the original intent was tweaked a lot in design meetings and later to expadite launch, these alterations don't seem to be replicated in the art-side (sound, mesh) assets. Additionally I think there are notable pain points that could be solved without significantly reducing the activity duration (That DE obviously wants to maximise)

Problems as I see it:

Diagetic Problems

• The liches talk a lot about being killed and comming back. Other than the larveling we only kill them once, at the end.
• Lich thralls use a very generic FX than really doesn't visually differentiate them well and doesn't really fit the context.
• The Litch gets a trophy of the Warframe that created them, surely this should be a Warframe they defeat rather then the one that defeated them?

Gameplay Problems

• Meeting a lich only has two states: failure and removal, there is no way to score a victory over a lich other than to remove them from play.
• The rank-up state is a significant penalty, discouraging any attempt at using the Parazon early in the lich-process
• A lot hinges on the first discoverable requiem mod. If you identify a mod and it's not the first you are stuck for a significant time before you can progress. This can result is a lot of variability in the duration and difficulty of a lich-process.

So I'm suggesting altering lich combat thusly:

• All litch combat has three stages. Damage->parazon * 3 The sucess or failure of a requiem mod is not shown at this point
• After this there is a 3 part choice
  • Attempt to Vanquish
  • Attempt to Convert
  • Let them die (Timer runs out)
• Any "attempt" shows the current full requiem and report any sucesses at any stage, on any failure the lich counters and enilinatet the Warframe.
• "Let then die" returns the Warframe to control and the lich dies playing the Kuva larvling float FX (possibly with a suitable VO line if they already exist)

Additional alterations:

• Only give the lich a warframe helmet shoulder piece after killing a Warframe, not after being created
• Add the randomised armour pieces on level up, not at creation
• Use the kuva-cloud FX around the head of thralls, this alters the silouette, making them more noticable of is more diagetic given the context of their creation and their abilities (unkillable without the Parazon)

[AreeSoothsayer]

7 hours ago, FoxyKabam said:

so, instead of just allowing players to trade lich weapons

just like how we can already trade rank 0 syndicate or baro weapons

we have to

1. beat the lich and convert them
2. build a new "lich room" in your dojo
3. trade the lich
4. the new owner then has to do step one all over again

why is this convoluted mess was the way to go? it makes no sense thematically

 

none of this solves or even relieves getting a bad roll or dupe either and having to go through the lich slog all over again just for another attempt

currently what do you do with garbage lich weapons? no one wants them when 60% rolls are a thing, you can't convert them into anything useful, so you just sell them for credits.

I'm sure this is all made to be a slog to counter the "content drought", can't say you don't have anything to do when you could be wading through the lich mess.

it'd work if they were fun and rewarding

they are not, what ever marks the liches were made to hit, have not been hit

 

warframe would be better off without them imo

 

 

It's not about the weapons. It's about the Ephemera's. You trade a lich with an Ephemera then that player can also get it. They did increase the chance to spawn with one on Liches from 5% to 10% but Rng can be cruel and some people don't have 12 hours a day to farm liches.

[Alejandrokek]

The melee changes are good, still needs balance and tweaks.

Regarding heavy attacks, I hope you don't keep going in this direction, right now the builds are either just common attacks or just heavy attacks, and that's really boring, I think melee 3.0 should diversify melee gameplay and not just be "spam E", or "spam Heavy atttack" (like in Brozime last vid).

Since many of you were inspired by devil may cry or other hack and slash games when reworking melee, you should see that is more fun combining different attacks and not being punished by doing it; heavy attacks punish you by taking all of your combo, and that's never worth it, if it's not worth it, people don't use it, i'd rather keep a 12x multiplier both in damage and crit chance with blood rush.

I'm aware of the recent buff to (sacrifical) true steel, but in my opinion heavy attacks still have some problems that will keep me from using them:

-Too slow: I know they're supposed to be that way, but they are not worth it, getting multi-hits with common attacks is usually better, and it's always more fun and pleasant to see some variety than seeing the exact same slow attack over and over, if we compare the speed with other hack and slash games it really lacks speed, i would go with a 20-50% base speed buff and see how it works, also, attack speed should affect heavy attack speed, if we split the two, you're also splitting playstyles, it could be good but it's less dynamic, less pleasant. The combo (not the multiplier, but the idea of combo) is lost, what you did with common attacks and the close up combo (forward, right click and E) is very good, I would like to see that too with heavy attacks.

-Combo counter shouldn't be consumed, losing 12x damage and crit is not worth a heavy attack, to change that I would go with: "On heavy attack, consume 1x-2x of your combo" and see how it works, on top of that, I would add a 3x-4x total range multiplier (all numbers are subject to tweaks), so that heavy attack would actually be worth using, wasting a 12x combo on hopefully killing 1-3 enemies isn't profitable, with a buffed range it should be better, I think it's not good to enforce more monotone playstyles.

This is very subjective, take it as a simple opinion.

[844448]

Being honest DE, the lich trading is very disappointing considering that you trade them using platinum, where this can lead to another insane people giving insane price for a lich with high bonus percentage.

I believe lich trading should be between kuva liches, similar to bounty board where you can take someone else's lich by trading your active lich instead of selling your converted lich because I want to keep my own lich.

Also, for the general gameplay itself, I have a tweak to propose in form of this thread I made

 

[Marvelous_A]

Can I not to be forced to die by Lich just to get the correct sequence of Requiem mods please? I'd rather not doing this at all than getting killed by maggots coz game mechanics.

[--DAGGER]

even after the hot fix i am still not satisified about the kuva lich 

it takes too much time average for killing 1 lich will be 4-6 hours.sorry warframe DE i cant play this game no more i hate to say this good bye warframe

dont worry i ll still play the weekly challenges for umbra forma and daily login

[Annnoth]

Liches should not have ferrite armor. They need a generic armor type that is affected solely by the resists and weaknesses they have.

As it stands right now, their resistances determine how much corrosive damage you deal. They are still a level 100 enemy and a boss at that so their armor makes everything BUT corrosive unreasonably weak. I tried matching resists, but it genuinely does so much worse that corrosive was still more effective than any of its other weaknesses despite being a resistance on my lich.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Annnoth

[Joezone619]

make the kuva lich not insta kill you if you have the wrong parazon sequence, there should be a way to escape death, EX: Spam X to fight off lich

 

[kazenioware]

 

On 2019-11-14 at 10:23 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Back-to-back Duplicates - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

It's a start. Nothing more.

It is still an insane level of farming amount.

And it still wouldn't got me my personal outcome of 8 Liches and 4 weapons. And with 13 weapons ahead in total this will get even way more disappointing.

I played this game  a looong time, but this is a total lackluster and discouraging.

What seems to be the problem?

Imo one of the bigger issues is: You get a double you do not want is a disappointment. So far, so bad. To make it worse,, you need to farm hours to get rid of the Lich.

You get a disappointing reward upfront, and then you need hours to get rid of it.

That's different with the hunt for relics or their parts in two ways: first you get the outcome of your reward afterwards, not upfront. Second is, it is way shorter, plus you can trade it.

Edited November 16, 2019 by kazenioware