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(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

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Liches should not have ferrite armor. They need a generic armor type that is affected solely by the resists and weaknesses they have.

As it stands right now, their resistances determine how much corrosive damage you deal. They are still a level 100 enemy and a boss at that so their armor makes everything BUT corrosive unreasonably weak. I tried matching resists, but it genuinely does so much worse that corrosive was still more effective than any of its other weaknesses despite being a resistance on my lich.

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make the kuva lich not insta kill you if you have the wrong parazon sequence, there should be a way to escape death, EX: Spam X to fight off lich


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On 2019-11-14 at 10:23 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Back-to-back Duplicates - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

It's a start. Nothing more.

It is still an insane level of farming amount.

And it still wouldn't got me my personal outcome of 8 Liches and 4 weapons. And with 13 weapons ahead in total this will get even way more disappointing.

I played this game  a looong time, but this is a total lackluster and discouraging.

What seems to be the problem?

Imo one of the bigger issues is: You get a double you do not want is a disappointment. So far, so bad. To make it worse,, you need to farm hours to get rid of the Lich.

You get a disappointing reward upfront, and then you need hours to get rid of it.

That's different with the hunt for relics or their parts in two ways: first you get the outcome of your reward afterwards, not upfront. Second is, it is way shorter, plus you can trade it.

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I think the autokill mechanic on parazon attempt needs to be altered in a better way.

Personally speaking what happens doesn't feel realistic in context and it doesn't work with the kuva established lore that they can't really be killed.

I'm not sure if someone else proposed this already, but I think that the Parazon mercy kill should work every time. Should the requiem sequence be wrong the lich will be reborn and level up for the next encounter.
I think it would make a lot of more sense to have them utter something along the lines of "This changes nothing!" as they fade out, gain a level and return stronger to taunt you in the star map, compared to an automatic counterattack by their part that kills you automatically.

Other people already said that being forced to lose a life to progress leaves a sour taste in your mouth. While I do understand it's just one try from an endless suplly of retries it still tick me off the wrong way.
For me it is the main reason that I tend to gravitate toward ignoring a lich instead of engaging it in battle, especially when I'm playing solo.

A player should feel to at least be able to temporarily stop an immortal being, instead of fall into this "eh, I still don't have the requiem code right now... here, take a free kill, just go away" situation.
There is no satisfaction in those encounters, it just feels like a waste of time.
If a player is allowed to defeat a lich in battle, it will definitely be better for their mood, while the end result will be the same: The lich will leave the mission and level up anyway, but the player won't feel like you have to 100% lose the battle when engaging without the right requiems.

To recap:
A downed lich should be beatable and killable with the parazon for that particular mission every time anyway.
* If the Requiem sequence is correct, it will be corrupted/vanquished permanently.
* If it's not it will die for the mission, taunt you as they fade out with sparkly kuva effect and level up for the next engagement.

Maybe should they manage to down the player, they could gain two levels instead and leave as well.

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The process from start to finish is annoying and takes too long.  Thrall mercies should award double the amount of murmur progress that they currently award.  Converting a lich should allow you to call on it whenever you want, like a specter.  A converted lich should also be able to be dismissed or killed at the players will allowing the player to obtain the weapon when doing so.  Lastly, we need the option to dismiss the enitre process at any point of progress.  


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Kuva weapon RNG

My main gripe with the system right now is the RNG for getting the weapons you want, the idea of being able to pick an innate element for your weapon is great, but the implementation is what's wrong here.

Rather than picking the weapon and element, you instead pick the element and hope you get the weapon you want, otherwise it's an avg 2 to 3 hour grind to try again. And this is without factoring the RNG for the bonus %.

It's kind of fitting that 13 weapons were added (unlucky number), because this system is genuinely frustrating if you're unlucky.


What I've suggested before and was likely on the table, but either ignored or voted against would be to either remove or soften up the RNG for the weapons. 

Either by making the larvalings spawn with a vanilla version of the weapons they would have as a lich, yes, including the Ayanga, Shildeg and Chakkhurr.


Make the weapons node based. Tho this would remove the RNG entirely whereas the first suggestion would be a soft farm you opt into before the real farm.


As it stands the RNG for getting the weapons you want is barely tolerable and I'm making these suggestions under the hard assumption that more Kuva weapons will be added into the same pool later on.


(Also please give the Kuva Ogris more crit chance)


Bonus % RNG

As for the bonus % RNG, I see this as partially optional, but it's still a gripe for a lot of people, just not as much to me as others.

What I suggest for this is to soften up the process by using the kuva lich rank to narrow the variable.

Assuming the minimum % is 25 and the maximum is 60% what this would entail is.

At rank 1 the lich has the full variable of 25% - 60%

At rank 2 the lich would change the variable to 30% - 60% . Meaning any value below 30% would be rerolled into the new variable

At rank 3 the lich would change the variable to 40% - 60%. Meaning any value below 40% would be rerolled into the new variable

At rank 4 the lich would change the variable to 45% - 60%. Meaning any value below 45% would be rerolled into the new variable

At rank 5 the lich would change the variable to 50% - 60%. Meaning any value below 50% would be rerolled into the new variable


Just so there is no misunderstanding, if you get a high roll right off the bat, basically 50+%, the bonus will not change for you at all.


This would leave trading to be mostly for the perfect or near perfect bonus %'s and ephemeras.


Or something else that could be done to encourage more farming would be to add a weapon upgrade system in addition to the valence transfer system, this would allow players to convert lower rolls into a % increase to the current best roll they had. (maybe 2 - 5%)







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Please add more rewards to liches other than the weapons themselves. Endo, Kuva, Rivens, Formas, etc. At the moment, I just finished MR-ing all the kuva weapons and the only rewards left are Ephemeras, but when they don't drop, the liches feel completely rewardless and disrespectful of time spent hunting it.

Adding more rewards will ensure the game mode will stay relevant consistently and not be considered as a one-time done deal once MR-ed all weapons.

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I've got all the weapons, 1 via trade because I didn't get it in 32 liches (incl active one), and while I would like to grab the ephemeras it requires dedicated grind and it's depressing.

On top of that, playing on public matchmaking with lich is frustrating, especially when you want to test your mods on your own lich and someone else just ignores their lich...

They would probably not ignore it if it wouldn't kill them (make it so you always kill the lich but they get revived if wrong mod, as a previous comment here suggests) but also if the rage level wasn't reset.

Because I get it, you've just unlocked a symbol in the current mission and if your lich spawn it's a waste of time to stab them because it takes several missions to make them spawn again.

A more reliable way to spawn liches or rage not resetting would be better, meaning the lich spawns more often which is fine when you're doing their dedicated mission.

Maybe at rank 5 it should have 100% chance to spawn, or a dedicated mission to hunt them down like an assassination mission, similar to what was presented at tennocon with railjack, going on a ship to find the lich.


Then there's the dedicated mission thing, it takes SO MANY missions to complete a lich, either make thralls spawn in other modes (fissures, sortie, regular missions, etc), and/or make it require significantly less thralls.

The 150 thrall kills for getting the symbols is A LOT considering how slow they spawn. Making the system even more frustrating when you actually have to kill that many thralls to get the last symbol and then again do missions for the lich to spawn already because it's enraged and doesn't want to for some reason.


Then there's the lich rage issue when playing with friends, if your lich is on different planets and nodes than the other people's liches then it just makes the grind even slower if you want to play together.

The lich needs to get angry the more symbol+murmur progress you have on it, it needs to want to stop you constantly, that way you can play with friends and everyone gets progress and everyone's lich can spawn even if it's not controlled by them.

But it should only spawn on the dedicated missions that are now the only way to spawn thralls, and thralls should also spawn in other missions.


Whatever the changes, it needs more incentive to play it both pub and with friends (and combined with pub if less than 4), right now I've played only privately with friends and it's really depressing when you get a new lich and has nothing of use and on top of that it's on a different planet than your friends.

Unlike every other reward in the game where you get the info of reward after you've done the grind, then you could decide to do that again or not... but with liches if it has nothing of value you just want it to go away and grinding for that seems like a chore.

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Hey guys, i will give my point of view about the kuva lich.

To have an arch-ennemy across the galaxy, an ennemy we create is so good, it add some end game gameplay and this lich can give us some weapons, cosmetics and enventuelly some help.

But, it's not as good as i was thinking, yeah...i'm talking about the thralls. The system to gain some mumurs is...long...frustrating...and not interessting...seriously, it's not fun to kill 150 thralls like we made a genocide of other mobs. It we be more interessting if this gliph can be gain in special missions like "We have to interrogate some thralls to get some contact information to another mission. This mission will be a spy/interrogation/assassination of a lich's general wich grant us, when the mission is a success, a gliph". I think it will be more more more interessting than the actual system.

Lich are quite special, when we don't kill them but convert them, they can help us in some missions...but they are so useless than we can ask ourselves if this is the same lich we converted earlier. At rank 1, they can use all of their abilities against us, but they don't use (or not as fast as against you) their abilities when they help you, so it become useless the keep them alive.

So, to make a summary:
- The lich event is very very very good, but the gameplay is not so good, it will be more interessting if we can gain gliph by special missions and not by brainless genocide of specific foes
- It will be good to improve the power of the lich when they come to help you in mission

So it's all i want to say about this event

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Overall Kuva Lich/Weapon feedback (this is a WIP and will be updated as I have more feedback to add):

This update seems like an unfinished amalgamation of ideas that were put together, in order to have an update with gameplay content in 2019 (Disruption/Ropalolyst/Buried Debts being the only other gameplay content this year).  It also feels incredibly bad to play, unfinished as it seems. 

-Why are we grinding these Kuva Liches?  Is there some imminent threat about them? Do we need them on our side, converted, for a fight that requires their help?  Do we need their weapons for some kind of enemy whose bane is Kuva, making their weapons the optimal choice?  It seems like they exist... well, just to exist.  Is there any lore, other than the intro cutscene about them? 

-There is no integration with any systems other than the void trace system and kuva siphon system.  The problem with that is both the void trace and kuva siphon system are also optional.  However, both of those systems provide endless worthwhile reward, unlike the Kuva Lich system.

-There are two rewards, as a result of the entire Kuva Lich system - Kuva weapons, and Vengeful Ephemeras. 
- -Ephemeras are cosmetics, and while the Vengeful Ephemeras look better than all of the other ones in my opinion, cosmetics are not content.  I currently have the Vengeful Toxin Ephemera, from when the chances of a Lich spawning with an ephemera were 5%.  Across approximately 11 Kuva Liches, that's not great.  I am aware that the drop chance is now 10%, but that devalues the ones already obtained when the drop chance was 5%. 
- -Kuva weapons, on the other hand, are the only 'content reward' from the Kuva Liches.  Which is absurd, given that they're a punishment rather than a reward.  To bring them to their max levels to obtain full mastery from them, the player must apply 5 forma (the most valuable resource in the game) to 13 weapons, expending 65 forma.  If the weapons were decent, then maybe this would be worthwhile. But that's not the case.  It was soul crushing to put 5 forma on a garbage Kuva Kraken.  I can only imagine how bad it will feel to put 5 forma on a Kuva Seer.  Many of them only require 3-4 forma for their final build, too, meaning that 1-2 forma per weapon will be useless, thrown away for 200 points of mastery. 

-Kuva Liches take about 2hrs 45mins each to grind, on average with no breaks.  The shortest one I've grinded took around 1hr 30mins (guessed the first 2 requiem mods right from the start), and the longest took around 6hrs (had to fight the Lich 10 times, waiting for it to finally show up was the pain in the behind). 
- -Now, the grind time isn't necessarily a problem in itself, but in terms of efficiency, this loses out to just about every other grind in the game.  Which means that, from a position of grind efficiency, a player should never touch the Kuva Liches, and should grind Void Relics, rare mods, etc to trade for platinum, and THEN trade that platinum for the proper Kuva Lich.  Since traded Liches start out at level 5, it is a much faster grind in which the player may actually choose what weapons/ephemeras they want, by way of buying them selectively, since their fury does not decrease with each encounter, at max level.  With Lich prices as low as they are (I've seen prices of 60p-100p), (frugally speaking) a player should grind 3-4 Liches for non-duplicate weapons (unless they're like me and get the same 2 weapons (Dubba Stubba/Kraken/Dubba Stubba/Kraken) for their first 4 Liches), then buy the other 9-10 for plat.  That's 540-1000p, min-max based off current prices.  That takes the place of (9-10 * 2.75 hrs = 24.75-27.5 hours) 24.75-27.5 hours MINIMUM grind if they get the best possible RNG on their Liches.  The real number is probably somewhere around 60-100hrs, what with all the duplicates.  In that time, a player could easily grind more than that amount of plat's worth of other assorted goods, liquidate those goods for plat, then buy Lich weapons.  The reason why prices are so low is because duplicate weapon Liches (the only kind that are currently regularly sold) are otherwise useless to the original owner (and the buyer knows that), so they take what they can get for it.  Giving converted Liches an actual purpose in the game might change that. 

-Kuva Liches should be allowed to be cancelled/removed while they are level 1.  If I start a Kuva Lich, and it has absolutely nothing that I would find useful, it is nothing but a waste of time to have to grind it out.  Grinding out a useless Lich feels terrible, like pissing away time for nothing, because that's exactly what it is. 

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I think my views on the problems with the lich system itself have been brought up multiple times by other posters, so I'll focus instead on a separate problem; the utility (or lack thereof) of converting a lich. So far I've converted the majority of my liches, as I have no interest in the kuva weapons themselves and the idea of an ally interested me more. Thus, I've had most of them show up at least once to help out in a mission. However:

1) Their damage output is extremely low. On level 50 Grineer missions I've yet to see any of my liches successfully kill a single enemy, and this comes after watching them closely while I make sure they have plenty of targets to engage. I don't think any of them have even managed to get a level 50 Lancer below 75% health. This has been observed to be the case regardless of how high the liches rank was.

2) They don't appear to use any of their powers either; the only thing their AI seems capable of is firing their weapon, which as mentioned is very weak. Is the converted AI just the standard Lancer package?

3) They appear unreliably, and for a very short period of time (about a minute at best).

4) They do not seem able to take any orders from the player, unlike other AI followers (specters, syndicate operatives, and so on).

For a three hour dedicated farm of endgame tier encounters this is a highly subpar reward, especially when you factor in the existence of Tenno specters. Even vapor specters have strong damage and health scaling, can make use of all of their warframe powers and can be ordered to hold positions, all while lasting for the entire mission and being summonable as and when the player needs them. To acquire them all one needs to do is a 3 minute rescue mission, then put them in the foundry to bake. The investment of effort to make specters is so much less than converting a lich, yet in every measurable regard they make for better AI companions. As it stands the only use for conversion is for later weapons trading, which is utterly bizarre.

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ppl are literally afk at the extraction point when the lich does not belongs to them, give ppl some reason to help 

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Okay, so... as much as I like the team playing kinda thing, there's a big issue regarding kuva lich spawn in public missions. Since one person's lich can't spawn until the corrently lich is killed/converted or failed, it feels wrong that if a player simply chooses to ignore their lich we have to leave the squad if we want our own lich to spawn. . While I agree that we can't force people to do what they don't wanna do, it feels like we are being forced to play solo (which has a WAY LESS spawn rate for thralls) or leave the squad, potentially loosing our progress and rewards (like requiem relics and murmurs), because of players like that. That being said, there is some actions DE can do to prevent this from happening:


  1.  Time limit: if the person who owns the lich don't attack it for 1~2 minute(s) it will automatically disappear. 
  2.  Solo thralls hunt: increase the spawn rate for thralls in solo missions, giving us an option to do those hunts and not having to deal with players that think only about themselves


The lich system is a very fun thing to have in the game, but it can be a pain if we are matched with selfish people and we should not be punished by that (which is exactly how it feels right now, like we are being punished and forced to lose the work we had done).  

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More a sugestion than feedback, maybe a chance for arcane dropping on defeating or converting the lich

It does take a long time to kill the lich, eidolons will still be the best choice to farm arcanes, but at least arcanes wont drop only from eidolons, and there will be a random chance for the hunt not be a waste of time, even if its really low, even if its 100% to drop arcane, most of them are bad, so the chance is sitll bad so it wont be that much even if its a guaranted drop. For now its a new thing i really like running even if the reward weapon im never gonna use, but it wont last long this way

I just dont wanna run eidolons anymore kkk it gets old fast

The unique part that is said to be worked on is more important btw

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Kinda pissed at how the Lich simply doesn't spawn, and how his rage bar resets everytime he wrecks you.

Password is all known, bar is filled and the mother#*!%er doesn't spawn. 6, 7 missions: nothing.

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Just some stats for y'all:

It took me 34 liches to get all of the new kuva weapons, prior to the trading update.
In these 34 liches, I received 3 ephemera.
Highest damage bonus 59%, lowest damage bonus 25%
Prior to the trading update I've killed the majority of my liches, 5 of 34.
I plan to convert all liches going forward that do not have significant damage bonuses (55%+).



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On 2019-10-31 at 3:16 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Feedback on the newest gameplay in Warframe: KUVA LICHES.

Can something be done about players refusing to kill their liches?

Being in a lobby where a lich spawns and its owner refuses to use the parazon can be quite anoying for someone actually hunting his own since there is no way to make that lich go away and the limit of 1 lich at a time just halts progression for everyone else.

Would be neat to see the lich go away after 3 times downed without interactions from their adversary so the rest of the squad doesn't see progression halted anyways.

Killing a lich can already take quite some time due to the murmur farming + requiem mod farming + several spawns without being able to kill them while trying to figure out which requiem mods to use and  their order in case these are discovered through murmurs. Seeing that progress halted by a single player who refuses to interact with his lich because of whatever reason is just frustrating.

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<Kuva Liches improvement plan>

I would like to report on the current Kuva Lich.

[Good point]
・Kuva Lich generation system and weapon treasure hunt element

[Bad point]
・Requiem MOD is a consumable item
・The next cannot be generated until the generated individual is defeated.
・The amount of information that can be obtained from KubaLich and its servants is very small.
・The amount of mission rewards stolen is not different from the amount originally acquired.
・Appearance rate and operation time of the turned Kuva Lich, fixed performance, and function to follow the player.

・Make the Requiem mod permanent. As a result, all Requiem mods have been removed from the Kuva Lich Hunter collection. Removed Requiem Transmuter and Defiled Requiem Mod.
・Addition of functions such as withdrawal of running Kuva Lich with credit (in-game money).
・Significantly increased the amount of information that can be acquired, and visualized a part of the weak requiem MOD picture.
・Double all stolen rewards (materials, mods, etc.).
・Added Kuva Lich summon gear item that was turned. Of course, it can be called and recalled arbitrarily. Added tracking and standby functions. Set the strength when calling to match the level of enemies coming out during the mission.
・Implement a weapon composition system so that the weapon bonus can be increased up to 50% only when the same type of weapon is selected. In the case of the same attribute, the amount of increase is increased.

[Total evaluation]
I think that it is good in terms of generating bosses themselves, fighting them, and defeating them or taking their weapons or making friends.
But there are too many bad points.
・Kuva Lich with weapons that the player doesn't want must be defeated without being defeated.
・The essential requiem mod is a consumable item, and you have to repeat the gain from each four relics with a probability drop.
・A further random element that the order of MODs must be correct to defeat.
・Because of the small amount of information that can be obtained, significant upgrades of enemies to heart hunting and zombie attack to Kuva Lich himself, repeated until the hint meter is full.
・It is almost guaranteed that the three weak MODs have been strengthened to the final stage when three are found.

What is the reason behind the joy of repeating this process over and over and finally getting your ideal weapon?
・ A large amount of exhausted relics and disposable mods.
・ Remuneration that does not differ from the amount originally acquired.
・ Kuva Lich, a friend who appears only occasionally and leaves as time goes on.
・A pile of weapons that are no longer needed and can only be used to sell or raise MR.

As a result, it seems like it has become content that just wants to spend time by mixing luck with luck rather than doing it.

The individual I was not pleased to feel more tired than when I got the weapon.
The reason is, of course, the above-mentioned bad point.

First of all, I want the Requiem MOD to be used permanently, not a consumable item.
The requiem mod, a necessary consumable, changes every time, but it's too terrible to hang a relic luck element three times there.
Next, the concept that the next individual cannot be generated without killing the current individual should be discarded.
It is inevitably visible that there are many patterns of fighting against individuals who are not interested because of the probability.

In addition, there are too many disadvantages in the current state, so I considered other advantages.
・If you have the necessary weapons, you can defeat them as they are and add them to your collection as a reinforcement material.
・Deliberately place a reward within the control area and defeat it when it is just right to earn a reward.
・The ability to summon the converted Kuva Lich arbitrarily, so that it can be used not only as a weapon but also as a treasure element for characters.

I wrote a plan for improvement as far as I could come up with.

Sorry for the long sentence.Thank you for reading.


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After, several hotfix to perfect the process to defeat the kuva lich. This mode isnt perfect enough yet.

Its not a completely mess ever, its a breakthrough on our skills and power, but the reward is too simple.

To kill a lich now , is a marathon, but the reward at the final is a bottle of water.

As a long process and high diffculty mode, the reward should include long-term useful resouces,like kuva ,credits,  , but not a simple weapon, weapons should be a by-product in this process. Only Long-term resouces can make players absorb in it.

And, the way to the final is stubborn.

What i want to say is a higher riskness and heavier rewarded additional mode.

Let us actively approach the lich, to change now we can only wait for them. 

Add a lich ship navigation beacon ,every Kuva Thrall will drop navigation data. The lich's ship may at 150-170level as a high diffculty solo mission, there are no directly aim but annoy the lich, player can steal data mess which can increase the ? requiem process, or break the ship's energy center,etc. Give players some challenge and reward at the same time is a geart mode.

this can give players the right to choose how they can kill the lich, easier but slower or harder but faster, we should own this option.

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A few ideas :

-Would be nice to have a way to analyze the kuva lich instead of trying to kill it without any clues when it show up in mission so that you still get the bonus murmur and make it leave.

-Don't really like the way the lich are created and evolve, would be more interesting if they were integrated in the game as mini boss holding a sector and you just had to do a specific assasination contract to unlock them as your personnal lich it would make more sense to me.

-get the possibility to have up to 4 lich against you.

-Adding the possibilty for a killed lich to come back and team up or fight you current lich with dialog etc..

-More background and interaction, at the moment they feel more like reluctant kuva weapon deliverer, (you could add a notion of bloodline with their own perks stuff like that)

-Create dynamic alerts where lich are fighting each other for power (crossfire mission involving both lich or even a new mission type in open space, space ship boarding)

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25 minutes ago, Syln said:

-Would be nice to have a way to analyze the kuva lich instead of trying to kill it without any clues when it show up in mission so that you still get the bonus murmur and make it leave.

That's an idea.

Scanning your lich gives you murmurs and causes the lich to flee to avoid you finding out his entire requiem by continually scanning him.

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Not sure on a proper way to fix it,

I myself do not kill my own litches when the murmur circle is past 3/4ths filled since it would take longer in the long run. Getting killed by the litch would reduce his 'annoyance' level from furious to 'uninterested', which causes him to appear anywhere from 3-4 missions after that one. Instead of just letting them be, fill up murmur by next map > do a proper sequence test the next. That's a difference of usually 3 missions longer. Would opt to go private, however litches seem to spawn more frequently in public even if you're the only one there.  

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Why do Lich's tend to spawn way behind me? The Lich tends to be pretty forgettable if you don't want to try and kill him (because you don't have the right Parazon sequence or something).

This annoying design makes it so when Lich appears in your exterminate/capture mission you could just run away. They won't be able to chase you down because enemies that can't see and shoot a Warframe after a while (like, say they go too far) will go from Alerted in Suspicious, then back to Unalerted, meaning they are no longer a threat. Makes the Lich less of a Rival or Adversary, hunting you down with a bounty for your head, and more of just another dumb Grineer lancer skoom enemy that you won't worry about them seeing you because you're already 3 rooms ahead of them towards the objective/extraction.

Make it so they Lich's will always know where you are (unless invisible of course) and chase you through the map. If you get way too far away they'll teleport closer too you, like they do when they first enter the mission.

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Liches should have a greatly increased chance to appear in your mission after you get to know all 3 requiems needed to kill it
Running a dozen or so missions when you don't have to get any murmurs just slowly raising the meter and praying for the lich to finally appear is absolutely tedious and one of the worst parts of the entire system

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