(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[Zarcxon]

Can we do something about how i have all weapons but im only getting worse upgrades, this makes me not wanna touch the system at all, as there is no reason to go in now other then the chance to get a slightly better version of what i have already.

can we get stuff like kuva, endo, or let the lower % weapons fuse into the better one adding around 5-10% more. because i have no reason to go after a kuva tonkor thats worse then the one i have since it wont help me at all in any way.

[magnakoji]

I know there are a lot of things to work on, I'd just like to not have navigation default to Earth after every Lich mission.

[wiersmaim]

a good idea that needs improvement, i want this thing to be a challenge, so far im dissapointed, also it takes too long to get its weapon, the grind is already bad, i want a challenging and fun enemy to fight, so far the lich is neither, i reccomend tweaking the ai in general to be smarter

[SeidronDaer]

I was in a defense mission when I defeated the Lich. Just as the screen transitioned to the convert/vanquish screen, the mission ended and we extracted. I was unable to pick either of the options (convert/vanquish).

[Twilight-Knight]

Game getting literally making frustration actions, Kuva lich beat a tenno, grap them up, kick them out. We forced to die

And in the end when we choose to terminate them, we kick their head, grind their head and execute.

[Zesty_Aardvarks]

Just a couple of fun little ideas:
1. After you Convert/Vanquish a Lich and look at their page in the "Kuva Lich History" menu, some of the space under their stats could be used to show the Requiem sequence that did them in. That way you can display the Requiem sequence and the Lich can still have all the space on the right like they do now.
And 2. An additional tab in the Profile menu that shows your Kuva Lich history so it can be viewed by others.

One more thing, I'm on my 10th Lich and most of them have been incredibly similar-looking. 4 of them have had the eyepatch, 3 of them have had the same Limbo hat, 2 of those had both the eyepatch and Limbo hat (both were fire element, coincidentally), only 2 of them have had masks. I can see the sheer variety of looks the Liches can have, which is one of the exciting things about starting a new one, but looking at the same features over and over is getting a bit stale (which isn't helped by the fact they only have 2 personalities).

Spoiler

Other than that, I'm greatly enjoying the Old Blood. I like the involved process, like your own personal campaign. I like the in-game story behind it. Can't wait to see Corpus and Infested get in on this system!

 

 

[Tyreaus]

Possibly / probably mentioned before but with all the complaints about people not stabbing at their Lich, would an acceptable stopgap solution be for Operator Void stuff to force the Lich to retreat? Void energy already interacts with Kuva clouds so it's got narrative precedent, the retreating voice lines and functions seem to be there already (see Revenant glitches), it's borderline impossible to do by accident, and everyone has access to Operators before they can do Liches, so...

[vaarnaaarne]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Possibly / probably mentioned before but with all the complaints about people not stabbing at their Lich, would an acceptable stopgap solution be for Operator Void stuff to force the Lich to retreat? Void energy already interacts with Kuva clouds so it's got narrative precedent, the retreating voice lines and functions seem to be there already (see Revenant glitches), it's borderline impossible to do by accident, and everyone has access to Operators before they can do Liches, so...

Odds are the main thing that would achieve is a second layer of complaints about people intentionally using the Operator to despawn other people's Liches. Implementing it just for the Lich's target would really just kick the can down the road rather than solve the core problem, and it might not be that reliable as a partial solution either.

 

No, the real fix will have to be one that will make people less likely to not stab their Lich. It's psychology really, by nature many people see the revive screen as a failure and the game conditions them to avoid it as much as possible, and if they're in a group they're more likely to experience it as embarrassing too. Besides that there is the thing about the Lich ranking up, but personally I think this is most often a rationalization for the prior or just a secondary concern.

So as many have mentioned, the best way to deal with the not-stabbing-the-Lich is to tackle the negative experience it has for many people, which would simply be the removal of the main "penalty" of the failed stab, getting killed for it. The secondary concern could be alleviated by giving a carrot with the stick, say raising the % bonus of the weapon on each rank up or some other benefit, but I believe simply having a more readily accessed explanation of how the rank ups will work (including that they cap at 5 and the Lich's Enraged meter doesn't lower after 5 is reached) would be sufficient so it's just less scary.

EDIT: Also Lich attempt murmur progress should be shared by the whole team, so there's incentive to team up instead of solo.

Edited November 18, 2019 by vaarnaaarne

[Rifz57000]

Many of the new requiem fissures nodes are not good in their current state. 

I don't mean that having only rescue and survival was the best, that hindered diversity and running only those 2 could've become boring in the long run.

Why those 2 mission types are great:

1. Rescue: You can do it in a pretty fast way if you know how to play (rewarding the knowledge of the map/hacking speed or cipher stock/skilled parkour navigation). It rewards something else as well as the content of the relic itself, the reward is based on how well you do the mission (if you speedrun it you will probably trigger alarms and not kill the guards getting the worst reward but at least you can finish it faster).
2. Survival: It's a great way to get kuva if you have a booster/kavat whilst opening multiple relics in a row (in the span of ~5.5mins each). Rotations also reward neo/axi relics once in a while.

Why most of the newly added missions are not worth to play (i'd rather just wait for other fissures to open relics)

1. Assault/mobile defense: Have absolutely no additional reward at all. Have a time gate mechanic that forces the players to wait for the countdown/progress bar to reach that sweet 00:00/100% without giving them any way to accelerate the process (not having a skill reward system). This makes those missions last at least twice longer than the average rescue mission, and they still offer the same "only 1 relic content" without anything else (unlike rescue's specters).
2. Disruption: It's similar to survival as it's an endless mission with a chance to get kuva but it's worse. The orange resource booster only works on kuva dropped by demolisher units and doesn't on the rotation reward making it objectively slower than survival if you have one. To run rotations as fast as possible it's required that all 4 players activate the conduits as fast as the keys drop, this can lead to having to kill demolishers solo and thats not something you find in an auto-fill squad. In fact running these to open relics in auto-fill squads is generally slower than doing the same in survivals and give out worse rewards (less kuva and no relics).
3. Defense: The enemy spawn locations make it so that trying to reach the same reward/time spent doing the mission ratio as survival is too hard. Enemies can get stuck waiting for their death in rooms far away and generally take too long to come in. Maybe reducing the amount of enemies in waves and having more of them spawn in the same time can fix it like it fixed arbitration defenses.

I didn't cover exterminate and spy as i think they are fine as they are because they reward 'skill / time spent in the game' like faster kills->faster mission for exterminate and map knowledge/vautlt rewards for spy (even if i still haven't found a spy fissure).

The mobile defense issue is also present on everything else, i never run those except if it's in the sortie or i'm doing a radshare and the only fissure is a mobile defense. Since the addition of lots and lots of ways to level up gear, they are to me only a waste of time that give no reward.

It would be cool to see a reduction of the time needed to open one relic at least in assault and mobile defense with the addition of active gameplay that reduces dead times (like killing a lot of enemies in a short span, hacking additional panels, being able to defend multiple terminals in the same time (the 0/2 goal mechanic in high level spies where it's required at least 2 of the 3 vaults to be successfully completed could be put in mobdef), shooting the door idk) and in general having better additional rewards for those missions i listed if they have to take more time to complete than fast ones.

Sorry if this is hard to read, english is not my first language. 

EDIT: Also please revert the change on the murmur progress not being shared between teammates for kuva lich kill failures, it's kind of weird that in a cooperative game you're incentivized to play solo because you'll avoid other players lich that are only a waste of time.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Rifz57000

[WalkerInTheVoid]

I recall a discussion about the upcoming Empyrean aka Railjack last Tennocon, about making "islands" and Railjack was instead going to reconnect those islands.  Kuva Liches, so far, are the exact opposite.  The Kuva Lich content is creating a dull, uninteresting island: the only way for one player to even detect another has a Kuva Lich is by going on Kuva Lich missions, or in other words, going to Kuva Lich Island.

 

Kuva Lich island doesn't have anything interesting.  The entire system just feels padded, bloated, pointlessly frustrating to the player.  Getting Murmurs is a tiring slog that just drags on and on.  For a brief moment, when we got murmurs for squadmates liches, that was much better, I'd almost say about right.  It also meant that if someone found their lich out the gate and killed it, well you weren't getting any more thralls, but you got a bunch of murmurs so everyone's happy.  Now?  If someone gets and kills their lich out the gate, everyone else feels like they should be doing these missions solo, further isolating the experience on Kuva Lich Island.  Kuva Lich Island doesn't offer any side benefits, anything otherwise interesting that could be done on the island while you're trudging your way through your murmur farming.

 

You talked about a "Power Inversion"... this doesn't feel anything like that.  The "oh, screw it up and the Lich just kills you" mechanic just feels pointlessly punishing the player for having the gall to actually play the game.  The RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG feels padded, an attempt to conceal a lack of actual content by needlessly frustrating the player.  Kuva Liches don't feel actually difficult, just cheaty and BS and makes my eyes roll.  I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I finish a lich.  I feel a sense of "ugh, done.  Why do I want to do this?"

 

Meanwhile, the Liches themselves... me, personally, I find the "Logical" personality to be akin to nails on a chalkboard.  The "Jovial" personalities I find more amusingly irritating.  That said, I know at least one friend who has the exact opposite opinions in the Lich personalities but all of this wouldn't be such a drawback if the Murmur hunt wasn't so long and boring and aggravating.  The Kuva weaponry having the Paracesis' rank 40 with 5 forma mechanic is a worrying sign that makes me want to look elsewhere going forward because it is yet another long, boring, slog.  A way to pad out by demanding the player rank up the same weapon 5 times, demanding 5 times or more the time investment for the same amount of content.

 

Kuva Liches has made me consider trying Destiny because if this is the way Warframe intends to go forward... perhaps it's time to find some other game that still respects its players.

[WalkerInTheVoid]

Additional thoughts that I forgot with the last post: Why do the Liches steal mission rewards?  It doesn't feel like anything other than Kuva Lich Island demanding a visit, and in turn an admission that Kuva Lich Island itself doesn't have anything to draw the player to it.  A nagging, a harassing of the player's time rather than anything engaging.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, vaarnaaarne said:

Odds are the main thing that would achieve is a second layer of complaints about people intentionally using the Operator to despawn other people's Liches. Implementing it just for the Lich's target would really just kick the can down the road rather than solve the core problem, and it might not be that reliable as a partial solution either.

 

No, the real fix will have to be one that will make people less likely to not stab their Lich. It's psychology really, by nature many people see the revive screen as a failure and the game conditions them to avoid it as much as possible, and if they're in a group they're more likely to experience it as embarrassing too. Besides that there is the thing about the Lich ranking up, but personally I think this is most often a rationalization for the prior or just a secondary concern.

So as many have mentioned, the best way to deal with the not-stabbing-the-Lich is to tackle the negative experience it has for many people, which would simply be the removal of the main "penalty" of the failed stab, getting killed for it. The secondary concern could be alleviated by giving a carrot with the stick, say raising the % bonus of the weapon on each rank up or some other benefit, but I believe simply having a more readily accessed explanation of how the rank ups will work (including that they cap at 5 and the Lich's Enraged meter doesn't lower after 5 is reached) would be sufficient so it's just less scary.

EDIT: Also Lich attempt murmur progress should be shared by the whole team, so there's incentive to team up instead of solo.

While I could say "it could just be the owning player's capability and responsibility as it is now", I totally understand that it's not the ideal solution and I completely know the core issue behind it. That's why I say it's just a stop-gap, because it should be quick and easy to do (and not necessarily something that has to be removed later: it shouldn't get in the way, after all) while DE solves the core problem about it being undesirable in the first place.

[Cephalon_Baphoma]

Kuva Tonkor feels great, but its only unique ability is that 5 metter safety feature. Scrap that, and instead create a duplex style firing mechanism. Shooting the Kuva Tonker with Quick tap makes it explode at any range, however holding the fire button allows you to prevent the granade from detinating and lets the granade bounce. Then when the fire button is released it explodes.This would make the sticky granade augment useful, because it wont have that stupid delay between sticking and explosions, allowing you to hit targets closer to you ( if you like using Cautious Shot ) while still maintaining the kind of play style its being used for now.

 

gif to show what I mean by a bounce mechanic.

[AreeSoothsayer]

What happened to the Lich specilization? Like the Tech specilization in the big reveal at Tenno con.

[b4timert]

How about making the weapon generation per grineer planet. its less programming work than going per node i would assume. But to add some randomness to it make it 3-4 weapons per planet with this i can more consistently farm the weapon i want with the element I want and if I can get it more consistently it's also easier to get the bonus i want on it. This would incentivise doing missions on different planets and unlike now were I just repeat the same node everytime I want a lich.

While we're at it make it so we can disband/bribe the grineer queens with kuva or credit to stop our lich. They are most likely making liches because we stole to much anyway. I don't roll rivens and buying off liches give me something to do with all the kuva i don't have a use for.

[vaarnaaarne]

Per planet (say, primary only or trigger type only or something?) and per frame (say, weapons XYZ for a given frame in that element?) would be a good way to go at making the RNG less painful (though that does nothing to the % RNG). There's enough frames and planets to go around to calibrate a less painful system.

[shredder2007]

It is way to grindy and the RNG is nutz!!!

[Madway7]

Can kuva weapons be given an extra benefit for putting forma into them beyond the +2 capacity (per forma)?

[HunterDigi]

Likely mentioned already but making sure it's mentioned:

Apart from the other issues with playing lich missions on public, there's also the fact that once a lich gets killed no more thralls and no more liches spawn in that mission, making the mission a waste of time for everyone else if it's something that can't be ended immediately, like survival or defense.

This is I hope a bug but I don't know anymore xD

Edited November 19, 2019 by HunterDigi

[Icecryos]

I didn't finished to kill my first Lich for one reason, the thrall farming part. You just have to farm the thrall and killing yourself when your lich appear, it's a bit boring and the interaction with the lich is not interesting. I rather like if the murmurs could be aquired by completing high level special mission such as capture, rescue, mobile defense, spy etc. We have arbitration for high level Endless missions but we have no high level regular missions (exept sortie but it's just 3 missions per day).

We could have an alert mission system who work a bit like void fissure, 4 or 5 mission with a 30 min rotation. During those alerts a lich could spawn and try to compromise the mission. Here are some examples:

Capture: You gain murmurs if you capture the target, a lich will spawn and try to save (or kill) the target.

Rescue: You have to save and escort the prisoner to gain murmurs, a lich will spawn and try to kill the prisoner.

Spy: You gain murmur for each successful data extration, a lich will spawn in each spy room.

mobile defense: Each defense give you murmurs, liches will try to destroy the consoles.

Defection: Each time you extract a squad, you gain murmurs, liches will try to kill the squads

Intreception: You will play vs your liches (one for each player).

Defense: You will have to defend a target for 5-10 waves (similar to sortie defense), liches will try to kill the target.

This type of mission should be way more interesting and more challenging than a basic thrall farming because the failure of the mission wouldn't depend on the death of your warframe, they would depend on the destruction of the objectives, and the liches would actively try to destroy them forcing you to interact with them.

How to interact with the liches?:

During these mission the liches would be "unkillable" ( you couldn't use your paragon to hack them), instead you could weaken them and use your paragon to banish them for a short duration (5-10 sec). The lich could be affected by CC for a reduced duration (20-30% duration), the priority would not be to kill them but to prevent them from destroying your objective.

How to kill your lich?

You could kill your lich in a dedicated assassinate mission, the lich could take the control of the assassination node from the Occupied planet (like Phorid). Since the lich is your personal nemesis it could be a solo mission (maybe).

Edited November 19, 2019 by Icecryos

[LeastWeasel]

please can you change the system for exchanging riven slivers for a riven mod so that the timer shows how long it is until you can get another riven mod. at the moment, the timer only counts down when it's already possible to exchange slivers. During the cool down week, there is no timer and so I can't tell when I can do my next exchange

[Maj-Cero]

Kuva Lich trade game seems to be in a steady spot at the moment but can see some issues that may arise in the future.

As more people get all their weapons the trade scene will more than likely die down to ppl selling high % weapons or ephemera. There will still be somewhat of a market for ppl just looking to complete MR fodder, but think majority of sales/trades will be for those higher %'s.

The issue i see coming from this is not from the trade itself but in the way that Liches are currently traded. As you gain more and more Converted Liches the more you have to sort through in trade menu. Imagine sorting through 1000 Liches looking for the one you wanted to trade off. Perhaps an option to "Dissolve Lich Contract" of the Liches you no longer want taking up your inventory.

As a result another issue arises with demand for good % weapons while in your hunts. If you have the weapon there is no reason to Vanquish if you already own or have a better stat, and Converting will only add to the list of ever-growing unwanted liches. Perhaps add a "Disassemble" option to Vanquished weapons sitting in your Foundry. It would bring up a pop-up similar to Canceling a foundry item being built showing the resources being returned to your inventory. Not only would this be a good way to get rid of useless kuva weapons, but perhaps ways to obtain some of the rarer resources that used to be easier to obtain (looking at you Nightwave Nitain). Could even offer a new resource that is only obtained in this way giving more reason to actually do it. This alone could add to the longevity of Liches instead of eventually dieing out as "old content".

Would also be nice if there were separate tabs in the Lich Codex to show All/Vanquished/Converted/Traded Liches similar with other codex entry sections.

•  

[XacKflash]

Hi, Please Stop Kuva Lich from taking my Void Traces, I'm working hard as it is to grind them , combined with the rng grind to get relics so I can grind more to get Parazon mods so i can get rid of my Kuva lich Cancer on my navigation map. 

I understand ur already looking at player feedback so I know ur trying to fine tune the kuva lich system, but please understand for players who spent so much time grinding stuff, its very humiliating to force them to grind this MUCH again from beginning every new content.

Players who want Punishing challenges should be provided with separate game modes that do not have exclusive or mandatory game items/mods. DE was able to implement separate game modes before such as Sanctuary Onslaught and Arbitration , Shouldn't be too hard to create or subclass the already functional system.

Forcing players to go through lvl 60-100 Content , every single content somehow , is not FUN, I repeat its NOT FUN , I didnot want to fight the already tedious Exploiter orb with hordes of knock_over corpus nor I want to be FORCED to find the meta to BARELY get through that mission, Now we have Requiem Fissures which am forced to enter at that high Level, I have an arsenal of warframes that I spent effort to Forma and Learn How does their kit work so I can use that to best of its abilities and for Fun situations, THE REDUNDANT HIGH LEVEL CONTENT is keeping me from using my warframes casually combined with nerfing High Level dedicated weaponry is just Mental pressuring me to stop caring to play.

I played hard to get my skills up and I Grinded till my brain bleeded to have stuff stored {Not even that lot but more than enough} for upcoming Foundry needs, I gained pt through hard work and ingame trades and got my mods & learned how to mod properly and how to get info from content creators and wiki, I should be spending my HARD EARNED Skills and Power Level chilling through hordes of enemies, DO NOT PUNISH ME on the expense of pleasing some other player requirements

If veterans are harming the game with their efficiency, Just tell us to stop playing to leave some room for the newer generation, I for one wont be offended I understand the difficulty of maintaining an active/ healthy f2p online game , I will just login daily for Nightwave challenges and few resources and leave, No big deal , it will still be fun for me.

Please the punishing for hard work should end, We understand the difficulties of maintaining the game & that players sometimes hunger for more content , We understand players using one type of weapon / ability over and over is not ok, HOWEVER removing the option to FORCE ppl to use the other options is not Correct, Update other weapons/ abilities to be TRULY on PAR with the meta and monitor if no changes happen,  I am VERY Confident ppl are EAGER to find more efficent choices, not every body like Lazer weapons or Shotguns or Splashy Splash or etc etc, I bet ppl are actually hoping they have more choices BUT they don't and thats the problem

Sorry for the rant, I actually came here for one sentence then it just came to my head and I let it out

I hope u get objective about this feedback & implement objective thoughts in ur future updates

Ty

 

 

 

[shootaman777]

What is this? 

"-Fixed Traded Kuva Liches always being Rank 5. They will now be the appropriate Rank 1! This fix was made serverside on Thursday
-Fixed Traded Kuva Liches retaining the Requiem Mod guesses from its previous owner. This fix was made serverside on Friday."

Making them rank 1 instead of rank 5 is purely asinine.  It does not matter whether or not they were intended to be rank 5 originally when traded.  I guess anyone who missed the window where Kuva Lich trading was more user-friendly can go **** themselves.  A level 5 Lich does not lose rage if the fight does not result in a convert/vanquish - a level 1 does.  Regardless of if the kill set of requiem mods is already known in this case, if the player dies or fails the mission to some unforeseen circumstance that may have nothing to do with the Lich at all (such as a Mesa getting shredded through Shatter Shield by a random Bombard rocket while fighting the Lich, or a defence objective dying during the fight), then the player has to wait a ludicrously long amount of time to build up the Lich's rage for it to have a decent chance to show up again. 

So... is there now a completely different set of Requiem Mods required required to kill the same Lich, since it doesn't show the ones that the previous owner used to convert it?  Or is the trader now supposed to just tell their customer the correct set, since the game doesn't anymore?  This change is quite unclear. 

[The_1_FreeMan]

Kuva weapons. It is entirely possible to go through literally dozens, theoretically hundreds of liches and still not get a single copy of a particular weapon. A feature where the probability of getting a certain weapon increases the more liches you go through without getting it would be nice. Or make it so that if you kill a larvling with the normal variant of a weapon they are more likely to have the kuva version, or something like that. Because taking out thirty liches and not getting a single ogris is getting really old really fast.