(PC) Kuva Liches / Parazon / Kuva Weapons / Etc. Feedback

[(PSN)FK2P]

Let us use 20k kuva to re-roll our lich’s weapon and stats please. 

Long grinds only work if you actually get something you want at the end of it. If I already have something, I’m not farming it again just to throw it away and try again. It’s like being on a train that reads: “destination: off a cliff” and then saying OK I’ll ride that for 4 hours and go off the cliff. Thanks.

[(PSN)FK2P]

On 2019-11-01 at 4:32 AM, Monochromeatic said:

Honestly this has been the biggest slap to the face I've ever received in the history of this game. I understand the liches are supposed to be "end game" content but this is exactly what we didn't want, grind on top of RNG on top of grind, why do you insist on butchering every update with an absurd amount of grind that completely puts people off of the game. The encounter with the Lich was the biggest disappointment I have ever received in this game. All that time and effort put into getting a lich to spawn for him to go down instantly, my parazon to tickle his junk and then he instantly one shots me through 8000hp, armor and adaptation.

On what earth is this fun? To literally just get one shotted regardless of what you do because you don't have the right parazon mods, I could understand if you where given them all to begin with and had to figure it out but really? putting them behind a grindwall or buy now for 800plat? and I also heard they where consumed after use.

This is without a doubt the biggest pay2win system we have ever had in this game and to top it off you don't even win, its a pay2maybewin. You really should feel ashamed of yourself for shipping this mess to us.

Totally agree

[rurufusu]

Kuva liches is bad design in the current state. Everyone talks about good Warframe community. I think it's a lie. 

Other tennos don't kill their liches. I encountered 4 of 5 people who behaved this way last hour. 

Tennos leave mission when your lich has spawned. 

Who is mastermind behind this system?  Why did he push player base to go solo farm? There a lot of good solo player games and Warframe is not one of them.

 

[Muminidas]

Guess it's time to add my few thoughts about Kuva Liches, especially about the feature of CONVERT THE LICH.

1. Stats show it's GREATLY unpopular choice for players to make. For two features there has to be more balance or at least if we have two choices we should have more benefits from both. As it is now, it is a no no.

2. Converted Kucha Liches should be crew members of your future Railjack - the common idea that circles around on the forums and Reddit. Still, it won't change much. Tie it with some actuall benefits like bonus stats for your Railjack, dmg boost, repair speed boost, inner defense help (when boarded by enemies) etc.

3. The chance for allied liches to show up during missions is completely random AND in my opinion too low. If I am supposed to have randomly showing up sidekick, he should show up randomly but more often.

4. They should give you different bonuses as they show up so if you kill Lich larvaling with Oberon, untill he's hostile he has Oberon's attack abilities, but when converted he can use Renewal to heal u up. WOuld be blas and amazing help if that was possible i.e during 100lvl sortie or long Arbitration run.

5. More interactions with converted liches, more specific lines, maybe let them hang out in our Orbiter or Dojos (would be pretty neat to have them walk around Crimson Branch joking about life trafficking or in Chem Lab doing some repair works, in the drydock looking up into space).

[DesertEagle1280]

Post Dev stream and Post 26.08 - my concerns regarding DE giving player-negative rewards stands, so reposting:

Hopefully your internal discussions are addressing the concept of player-positive vs player-negative rewards.  Without a way to guarantee progress, for example merging weapons to boost %, or somehow behind the scenes forcing future drops to never be lower than the same weapon/ele combo we already have, the chance to get "rewards" that we have to grind for, that also cost us requiem uses to unlock that lack any perception of player gain, is absolutely unacceptable.  Again, I know I sound like a broken record but I propose the following:

Valence transfer can up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.  Speaking of, I'd say murmurs could be improved a little, maybe set it to 30/30/50 or 30/30/30 instead of 30/30/70, but that's less important as progress is progress.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60% or whatever max is cold seer.  From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops. Added to my intial suggestion of a guaranteed improvement to ele % it means every lich would guarantee progress in some way - either improving a weapon you have, or spawning a weapon you don't. 

I genuinely sympathize with your needs to balance longevity, replayability, etc - and I don't envy y'all the job you do trying to balance all this.  However, I think the heart of the matter is that the only way this system will work, long term, is that it must be perceived by players as being player-positive.  The possibility to get 100% "unrewards" is purely and simply player negative.  If I have a 34% cold seer, and my next lich is a 28% cold seer - what is supposed to make me want to grind for that?  Trying to trade it hoping that someone wants such a bad roll?  That's really the only thing I can do with it - vanquishing it serves no purpose, and I don't really care to convert and trade for a long shot of anyone wanting it in addition to forcing me to use requiem charges (a limited and RNG controlled element in it's own right) for something that doesn't benefit me at all.  That lich would be a purely player-negative experience, I would be effectively punished for putting time/effort into your systems and your game. 

Using my solution above, every drop no matter how bad, can be a step forward, which is player positive, a net gain even if a small one.  It maintains the longevity and replayability that y'all seem to want, if not even making it MORE so - someone with a 54% rad karak for example, wouldn't want another Karak most likely, since it's almost guaranteed to be a lower roll.  Under my system, they'd be happy because theirs would get better up to max.  From the players side, it means there is never a point where a lich is a step backwards, an obstacle that gives them no progress at all.  There will be a long term engagement of the system because it is always rewarding in some way, shape, or form.

I'm not against grind, against taking time to gain the best reward - I'm only against wasting player time and punishing player effort with liches that represent 0 reward for time invested and resources cost, and for the system allowing the best rewards to be realistically attainable.  Working to eliminate player-negative experiences should be the forefront of DE's effort, IMO, or better yet, not introduce them in the future.

[AmberVael]

Okay, I think I've taken the time to feel out the system - more time risks making feedback late, I think. Three weeks and seven liches in have given me a decent feel for it.

The great power of a nemesis system is the emergent story, an engaging rivalry between player and villain that doesn't need hand-crafting. My experience is that the Kuva Lich system doesn't capitalize on that potential as well as it could. I'll try and hit the key points.

• Origin of a Maggot: Your Kuva Lich starts out as a larvaling, an enemy who spawns randomly and dies swiftly in your first encounter. This feels like a missed opportunity to me, as the lack of narrative hook or detail in a Kuva Lich's origin makes them less of a rival. From their perspective, sure - I murdered them. But from mine? In the few months I've played warframe, my stats report I've killed over 75,000 grineer. To quote Bison, "I'm sure it was the most important day of your life. But for me? It was Tuesday." While you could really go whole hog on this and have some dramatic gameplay around the origin of a nemesis (minibosses of a level, perhaps?), I think simple solutions could also help: even an inbox message with implications of an origin based on factors like the mission they spawned in ("thank you for killing my boss, you'll be seeing more of me" or "I escaped the reactor explosion, now I will destroy you in turn") could add some much needed flavor.
• Rivalry Ensues: A Kuva Lich has a lot of fun generation options (the elemental bit is pretty cool, the names make me laugh but I wouldn't trade them for anything, the quirks are pretty nifty and I think the differing ability sets has good potential). However, once created a Kuva Lich is fairly... static. They can get more powerful, but they don't gain new abilities. Every encounter with them is also largely the same: they show up, you fight, you probably stab them, they steal your stuff. Greater variation, I believe, would lead to more engagement. You might have a variety of encounters rather than pure combat (perhaps something like a kuva siphon showing up, or how capture missions sometimes become exterminate, except with the Lich playing a key role). You might have the Lich develop new quirks or powers, or change quirks or powers or effects depending on interaction with them. Variation, some ability for things to shift or play out unexpectedly, is what will help give rise to an emergent story.
• Rising Tension: There's... not much going on with figuring out how to beat your lich. In fact, its not just samey, its incredibly vague. What am I even doing, gathering murmurs? 'Murmur' implies interrogation, maybe, but there's not much of that going on. And while figuring out the correct sequence of Requiem mods shows promise, the trial and error method of testing isn't much of a puzzle. I don't think a super in depth puzzle is necessary, but a method that's a little more complex and less opaque might help. Maybe actually using Requiem mods on thralls somehow, testing them before going for the lich? We're hitting the problem of Bison's Tuesday again here: killing Grineer isn't exactly new gameplay ground, so hunting murmurs just doesn't engage me much. Even some small twist would be much appreciated.
• Breaking Batman: Games have pretty well established that dying is a failure state. Warframe reinforces this by penalizing affinity when you do so. This is something we're trained to try and avoid, to a certain extent. So... when the core Kuva Lich loop makes your repeated death inevitable, it feels like we're doing something wrong. After all, we hit the failure state! And for the narrative, well, it means we're always telling the same story, which hamstrings the strength of a Nemesis system: varied, emergent stories. Having the hero lose a few times before killing the villain is a well trod path, but it being unavoidable and a dissonant gameplay note feels like a flaw.

And now, a few other bits and pieces!

• Luchalich!: The grapple+throw attack of the lich feels too strong. I primarily run a tanky Valkyr (2000+ armor and 1000 health from full Umbral, plus Adaptation) and more often than not, the throw one-shots me. The balance feels quite out of place compared to their other attacks, and the fact that it so heavily discourages melee (my favorite combat style) is disheartening. Its possible that my normal defenses don't apply well to it for some reason, but given everything else I tank it does feel off. I'll also note that its a very slow move and since you lose control for the duration, I find myself saying "hurry up already." So, maybe it could use faster animation too?
• Weapon Duplicates: I greatly appreciate that liches won't drop the same weapon twice. But um, half of my liches have had Twin Stubbas. Maybe a more thorough solution is required? Perhaps a relic style drop system, so you have more control over what you get from a lich. An evergreen reward choice could help with replay value as well, as people will eventually get the weapons they want. (Forma or forma blueprints? Would also help with the forma needed to rank up Kuva weapons, come to think of it).
• Boston Tea Party: Sooo the one way a Kuva Lich really feels like a rival is the way they steal from you. But, I don't think it provokes the right response? For the resource rich and powerful, it won't get a reaction. For others... it seems to be getting annoyance. 'cause, well, its a tax. And not liking taxes seems to be a universal truth. I think a method of antagonizing and provoking us could be a great part of the system, but I dunno that this is doing it.

Lastly, I want to touch on my favorite parts of the system to avoid going pure critique.

• You will rue the name: Lich names are far more entertaining than I could have ever expected. Yeah maybe they're not very serious, yeah maybe they can be immersion breaking, but honestly its the most memorable part of the system. I can't remember any of my fights with a Kuva Lich, but I DO remember Mix Magg, Grineer DJ. And Sogg Hoff, the miserably damp. And my current Lich, Mukepub, promises to give them a run for their money. If you want to take a fun thing and make it even better? More names. Give them titles and epithets as they rank up, take territory, and do cool things. Because the only thing better than Sogg Hoff is Sogg Hoff the Sweltering.
• Born of Fire: The elemental system for liches is pretty cool. Yes, we can learn the details of it fast. Yes, we can game it. But... that's another form of engaging with the system, really. Its a small thing, but I'd love to see even more like it: stuff determined by origin planet or node, stuff determined by where or how you defeated them, or how many thralls you killed, and so on. Its really cool.
• Kill Him for his Hat: A cosmetic award that appears on your nemesis is fantastic, and so I love Vengeful Ephemera. Seeing it gives you drive to acquire it, and its just another layer of customization on an enemy. I'd like to see more stuff like this: its way cooler to take a trophy from your enemy than receive it off a reward table.

Hope all this was useful and not too long winded!

Edited November 23, 2019 by AmberVael

[Test-995]

Looks like lich drops kuva even on successful stab, and i think it should be kept as is, since it's much balanced to the point i believe this is intentional.

So we could farm 1200 kuvas in 5 min if we keep liches alive at rank 5, but it's only 1200 kuvas for a lvl100+ missions with some beefy boss (you know kuva liches  are actually a challenge for majority of people right?)

And yes, there is a chance that we could get 4800 kuvas for same time, but this is the reward for helping other players, and it's just RNG since there is no guaranteed chance to spawn liches other than yours.

Also do not forgot kuva is the only meaningful reward for 99% of times, you would get liches with no ephemera and literally inferior weapons than prior one for vast majority of encounter.

Please don't fix it or change it, this is fine.

Oh btw where is the fix for instagib? at least can you give us the ability to instantly revive right after the that stupid guaranteed death? there is a small chance that you are playing solo defense and objective destroyed in "rank up" period.

 

Edit; looks like r5 lich doesn't drop 400 kuvas for reasons, i don't know why i thought like that but well then this change isn't that meaningful imo.

Edit 2; well here is why this is meaningless : i think this is meant to be incentive to stab liches, but due to the fact you lose kuva gain on r5 liches you'd want to kill him with r4, so this is actually discouraging that, so fix would be simply removing kuva gain for successful stab.

Also it's not working as a reason to help other players, because r5 liches are the (only) one that actually need a help to kill, but for other squad members r5 liches are the most unrewarding one.

But well working as "added value" i guess, still better than nothing...

Edited November 23, 2019 by Test-995

[K3RB3RUS]

from 5 Liches, i got 2 dupes, all 5 elemental bonusses are sub 30. after getting 26% Kraken i got a 25% kraken (just 2 hours before your patch), my first Kohm had 30%, my 5th weapon is a kohm. 28%. 40% if the drops are worth less. worthless hourlong grind.

I really really loose any interest in this game right now ... 

to trade a kuva weapon i need to to the grind, if i want to skip the random drops by trading, i still need to grind the lich as well... this is all so exhausting

[Madway7]

I really hope more changes are coming to the lich system because the last 2 changes we got were disappointing to say the least.

Yes, we got a measure against players who ignore their liches

Yes, we got "incentive" to deal with other players liches. (problem here is that the only continuous use for kuva is rivens and rivens are essentially slot machines and kuva is the tokens for for it)

 

But none of these help with the RNG aspect of the liches, mainly obtaining the weapons you want and a good bonus % WITHOUT NEEDING TO TRADE.

Not even the grind was reduced, but I'm actually fine with the grind so long as we get a way to work towards what we want INSTEAD OF having to look for another player to give us what we want in exchange for something they want.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating this system will be if more weapons are added to the same pool, it really kills my hype for future kuva weapons.

 

As for the current ones.

 

Why does the Kuva Tonkor have a 1 meter smaller explosion radius than the regular Tonkor?

Why does the Kuva Ogris need to have a smaller magazine size?

 

As far as I can see, usage wise, these 2 weapons needed all the help they could get to bring interest towards them.

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Madway7

[Arsonistic]

On 2019-11-15 at 1:06 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

Worth noting that Blood Rush is worthless for this build. So no - Blood Rush *DOES NOT* make all other Crit mods useless!

Cmon mate, pay attention. Check when the comment was made; it was before the update that buffed Sacrificial Steel.

On 2019-11-15 at 1:06 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

Other than that, Heavy Attacks are OP

Some weapons are very strong now, yes. But my main issue still remains after the update: Heavy Attacks are slooooooooow and require specialized mods, making normal attacks weaker than a general build.

Balance is also just as bad as it was before the 3.0 Phase 2 update. They've just shifted some builds out and new ones into the meta.

[Jeger_Wulfe]

Getting the same weapon, but at a lower % elemental is too disappointing. I would suggest that you be able to scavage parts from it and increase the percentage of your main weapon by a small amount (say 3%). Example:

You have a 48% Toxic Kuva Seer, and find a 41% Kuva Seer. If you scavage parts from it you end up with one 51% Kuva Seer.

That would give a small use for lower weapons. You could still cap the result at 60%.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

I don’t think Liches should be able to steal void traces, considering we need those to refine the relics for a better chance at the mods we need to defeat them. To be honest I was pretty disappointed to find that acquiring the parazon mods would require the same relic grind we’ve been doing for years now, but having a lich steal traces from you is just bitter icing on a very poorly made cake.

[Jynx41174]

So here's what I think of the Lich System so far.

The Bad

1. Having a Lich being able to "Take it's Tithe" on a planet or node it doesn't control... Not cool.  My current Lich taxed me on Sedna earlier today and it's only at Stage 3 (could be a bug however)

2. Lich's  being able to steal Requiem Relics shouldn't be a thing

3. 3 use Mods after going through 6 Levels of RNG is Utter BS

3. Having Requiem Relics Rely on Void Traces which is a Limited Resource instead of Kuva... Seriously... What were you guys Thinking???

4. Farming 130 enemies to find out what mods you need to kill the Lich?  Again... What were you guys thinking???

 

The Good

1. Progressively Stronger Enemies

2. A new Puzzle to solve (Well not really a puzzle for anyone with half a brain, but still)

3. I'm pretty sure I'll find something to put here

 

Suggestions

1. Have Lich's only Tax you in Lich Specific Missions i.e. Mission: (your Lich's Name Here) ) Controlled Territory &tc.

2. Have Active Lich's be tradeable (if possible)

3. Reduce the Murmurs needed to 20, 20, 40.

4. Use Kuva instead of Void Traces to Fully Charge Requiem Mods

5. Have the Requiem Mods be Rechargeable instead of having only 3 uses

6. Please give us a way to Mute a Lich without having to Mute Transmissions all together.  Like... I don't know give them their own Voice Ticker Like we used to have for our Operator?

[Ikusias]

Kuva lich gameplay is not engaging:

- murmurs grind: stupidly monotonous grind by hunting down special mobs in "mirrored" isolated nodes of the starmap - no dinamic missions, no alternative sources of information, nothing

- kuva lich birth: we stomp a worm and bam superpowered enemy - stupid and boring

- Kuva lich removal: failing parazon combo on lich earns you a bed place right beside batman after bane was done with him... why if our lich was on the ground vomiting blood and vishera? just let us murder it and have it then resuscitate like we do with warframes - that is an immortal, not a cheater that ignores the rules of the fragging game

- kuva weapons: blergh sidegrades at best, ofthen worse versions of parent weapon, see tonkor and ogris in particular, or parent weapon was bottom tier to start with

- negative player experience: hours of poor gamplay with high potential of 0 payoff if: you get a kuva weapon you already have, you get a worse kuva weapon, you "befirend" the pallid excuse of an npc

Edited November 24, 2019 by Ikusias

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I gave my feedback multiple times already, which lead to half-measures which didn't address the ridiculous grind of this new system. My new solution is sadly to go play other games that don't treat me like a hamster in a wheel farming murmurs to get crappy gun reskins then putting 65 formas on that crap to get the mastery rank. Cya later, hopefully railjack won't be a mess like this.

Edited November 24, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Requiem mods should be rechargeable with Kuva.

There seriously needs to be a reduction in the actual grind and not just the number of times we have to do it.

With the way the requiem mods are now it’s basically the equivalent of the game destroying our operator Amps after every 3 Eidolon kills. There’s no sense of actual progression with the Lich grind. We’re just stuck in this constant loop of using up valuable resources for weapons that 12/13 of the time we don’t want. And what’s our reward for sticking it out past 3 liches? Well we get to go right back into farming the mods that were completely wasted.

allowing players to recharge the mods with Kuva gives players like me who couldn’t care less about rivens an actual use for Kuva.

Edited November 24, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Kalvorax]

is there a way to delevel liches? Im still on my first lich (rng hates me for the requiem mods) and level 5 lich is a royal PITA with its garbage armor scaling with status invuln. I can tank the hell out of the t5 enemies and the lich just fine with a 0 forma ember prime, but can do enough damage unless i take chroma who doesnt have the same tankiness (Ember has 90% with max 2, plus 90% with adaptation).

I almost think Chroma's 3 needs a rework so its damage mitigation instead of armor. (up to 90% with higher power strength needing less shields to charge)

Edited November 24, 2019 by Kalvorax

[AreeSoothsayer]

The fact that Rank 5 Kuva Liches give no Kuva at all..... bwuh?

If you convert I can see no Kuva from it. The Lich is still alive. However when you kill it, I personally would dig out every scrap of Kuva from the container embedded in it's body.

When you Convert the Lich, well the thing is pretty useless. 60s of an Npc that uses NO skills. Fires a So-So weapon that, I think, doesn't have the bonus element it did when the Lich was your Nemesis. Why not have the Lich drop a Kuva Weapon fragment. 4-5 fragments to be combined into an enhancing mod that can then be used to upgrade any of your Kuva weaponry by 1%. These fragments would drop for everyone.

Edit: It would work like a forma but instead of changing elemental property it would increase the % of the elemental bonus.

Edited November 24, 2019 by AreeSoothsayer

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

Could the Kuva Liches be linked to a Steel Meridian miniquest?

Okay, so you spare your Lich, thus balancing the scales between the two of you--but they aren't your ally yet. They follow you around out of curiosity mixed with their obsession, occassionally spawning in missions--and drawing aggro in non Grineer missions. They also show up in Iron Wake when you go there where the grineer defectors get to talk to them and then get the Lich as an ally.

[PaddyMaxson]

There's been a few great fixes to the Lich system in hotfixes already, but the Lich system is still bad grindy nonsense.

 

• Chance of repeat weapons is still too high - Since DE added an update so two liches in a row don't have the same weapon I still almost exclusively get Ogris, Kraken, Seer of 11 Liches  have had 5 repeats
• Liches are STILL just Trigger a larvling, kill it, grind missions for an hour or two, kill Lich. It's still just grinding for a weapon, and because you know what weapon it'll be before you start the grind it's hugely demoralising getting your third repeat in a row as you have to capture them to trade them.
• They're still just BORING to fight/intereact with, the most exciting thing you can hope for is they have a funny name.

[blackflashcannon]

The addition of kuva dropping when a player fails a parazon on a kuva lich in my opinion has no value at all to 'reward' the players in assisting others fight their liches. There is no drive to help because you don't get anything out of it worth pursuing. we already get kuva on kuva on more kuva from siphons and floods, to requiem relics trying to get the mods to defeat the lich in the first place. From what I've seen, there isn't the incentive anymore compared to when a fellow player failed a parazon and everyone gained murmurs as a result.

[TaurusDeRoma]

I'm pretty sure I am getting into this thread very late, and the chances my suggestion probably won't get much feedback, or much traction (47 pages is a lot to sift through), but here goes.

The Parazon does not have enough mod slots to warrant modding, and the only real use for it is Mercy kills on a Lich or enemies with 5%, or was it 10%, health remaining which is too low. The Parazon has mods divided between hacking and mercy(ing?) but given the 3 mod limitation, and the extremely low health threshold, hacking is much easier to use.

The Parazon is obviously a hidden blade, so why can't Ash, or other frames that forgot to bring a melee weapon, use that as their primary Finisher weapon? At the very least, give Ash an increase to the Mercy kill threshold by 5% for his secondary passive. My other solution is to give it two upgrade trees; Hacking and Mercy.

These upgrade paths should be ranked up, or whatever, through Murmur hunting, and or Kuva. Since every frame has this Hidden Blade automatically equipped, like Focus, players should be able to switch between the primary functions of the Blade in their Arsenal.

General outline:

Spoiler

Mercy Tree

Mercy Threshold: ranks: 4, each increasing the threshold by 5%, maximum of 25%

Possible aftereffects; Ammo refill (rank 1 for one weapon category, rank 2 for 2 weapons, rank 3 for Arch gun)

 Energy replenish as either direct energy or energy orbs 50% drop chance

Healing; radial (30m or affinity range that diminshes with distance), self heal, or Health orb

Affinity boost for 10s (rank 1) 50s (max rank)

Any other suggestion would be helpful, or a redirect to a Parazon specific thread.

Spoiler

Hacking tree: not sure, use enemy traps against them and general buffs/ crowd control?

As an added bonus, maybe use this to overhaul stealth, or give us aerial finisher like air assassinations?

[V0LK]

Finished my first and probably the last Lich

And on a scale of fun it was a solid 3/10.

Before I even tried to find myself a Lich, I read a guide of what I'll have to go through and my eyes almost rolled out of my eye-sockets. RGN upon RNG, inside RNG with RNG on top. Awful. But I had to tried it myself before complaining.

Requiem Mods farm. The worst part. Absolutely ridiculous amount of grind.

Murmur farm: not as bad as I thought it would be. Not fun but not frustrating.

Lich killing part: the second worst part. Who thinks it's fun to be instakilled because you did not guessed a random mod sequence? Good thing it runs away after being down three times now. I'm not surprised DE didn't think about it in a first place.

Overall it's not fun. It's not rewarding. It's frustrating. It's Warframe.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Feedback from 2 Lich kill veteran lol.

• Murmur missions should all be survival, exterminate, sabotage (capture is nice but to short 4 hunting murmurs) NOTHING else...   we are there to murder thralls to learn the right req mods.  Defending a target is completely opposite of running around killing everything you can find to try and make thrall appear.  Spy, disruption, defend, intercept, hijack, excavate are all to easy to fail vs Lv60+ enemies with 0 people trying to do the objective.

Now IF you feel like forcing us to play those mission types then we the players would expect DIFFERENT rewards from them.   Extractors to grant Kuva instead of cryo...  Spy/Sabotage caches to hold kuva, riven slivers, req relics, Endo.....     not sure what defend/intercept/hijack would offer besides that same stuff.  Maybe buttloads of credits a big murmur bonus?

Murmor missions are not equal.... 

• Through the entire game I see the occasional grineer(maybe others) take damage and get marked for mercy kills.  These are not thralls and not on murmur nodes(although it happens there to).  They do not go immune to damage so you usually kill them before you can mercy but I have done it to several and you do not gain murmur progress from them....  dont know if this is a bug or not.  If it is not a bug then these enemies need to go invinc as soon as they get mercy icon and they need to grant murmur progress....  
• Only a Kuva Lich should be Lv60-100+.  Thrall forces should be Lv30.  

This will probably be insanely unpopular.  As you, DE, said yourselves this is suppose to be for veterans and you need to bring your best gear AKA be meta or die.   I have done 2 Lichs and I plan on starting my 3rd today even though im on console and will probably get a 3rd identical kuva weapon lol.  The kuva weapon is my only motivation for doing Lichs.  I actually enjoy hunting for murmurs it is very grindy in a nice way.  But I wish I could use ANY of my warframes and just have FUN (until the Lich shows up.  AND if a Lich just normal kills you he shouldnt run away).   Besides opening up murmur grind to fun frames it would make those other mission types in my first bullet more achievable and less avoid at all costs.  

To be clear,  I can handle things as is but its not as fun as it would be if it was easier (atleast for the majority of murmur farming,  the Lich fight should be hard).  Same goes for Profit Taker and eidolons.  

• When it comes to difficulty you have no problem obliterating casual players but then when it comes time to make us really hate our Liches you go easy??  Lich's only take a little of our resources after a mission??  They should be taking ALL of our stuff (except for the things you exempt).  After a murmur mission when im looking at result and see the Lich only takes SOME of my stuff thats more funny than it is rage inducing.  Likewise it makes for a VERY anticlimatic ending when you do take down your Lich....and the game is like here is your 10k credits and 2 argon and 5 crap mods....   I want to see a pile of loot!!!
• You miss a really great moment for our Lich to taunt us everytime we have our sequence wrong.  You guys are working on Hero moments.... here is your Villain moment!!!   Your Lich should grab your wrist that has parazon with one hand and grab you by the throat with the other and lift you into the air and then says taunt worthy things (crowd source taunt lol,  maybe not...) and then throat slams you like Kane/Undertaker into the ground.  Would be super cool if your Lich knew whether or not you were with others or alone at the time and tailors his taunt accordingly.  
• I guess the only thing I will say about Req mods is that the symbols should be ALOT more unique.  A handful of them all look very similar.  I knew my 2nd and 3rd sequence mods and all I had to do was figure out the first so I just started changing them out as I waited for my 3rd murmur to fill up.  I figured out I was missing a mod so I traded for that.  Still didnt work and I was like WTF!!.  At the same time my 3rd murmur filled up and revealed what the mod was... turns out it was one I already had... i just thought I had used it already because it looks so similar to another and you cant really see them with a giant red line going through the middle of them on a failed attempt.  
• My worst reaction to the Lich system is Requiem Relics and Fissures.   Oh first off the fissures only flip flop between survival and rescue... rescue is a horrible mode for fissure.  You need other endless types.  ALL Fissures should ONLY be endless.   But besides that issue I really hate with a passion the fact you have to spend trace on requiem relics.  Maybe this was only a temporary problem as we all built up our mod collect for the first time.  But I have every mod and would just like to pop the ones I got in a full squad to better my odds at actually getting more mods but people will not join for intact popping.  They only want to do rad or flaw relics.  They dont NEED to but they cant get out of that mentality.  But farming trace without a res booster has been the bane of relic popping for years.  There is a whole economic system built around relic popping being a pain in the #$^ and even drives $$ into DE's pockets but now you are making it even worse by creating a THIRD void trace resource sink.   I just wish Req mods would have come from somewhere else besides popping relics.  You could have driven players to Sanctuary or Arbitration.

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Otherwise I cant wait for console to get bug fixes like to repeat kuva weapons.   As is the Lich system is a chore to get new weapons and mastery,  but can also be a nice waste of time if your not in a hurry.  But we need betters mission types, lower level murmur enemies, more punishing "taxes", and taunts.  Then Lichs would be a very fun part of the game.

My hope for the future of the system.....I was really in love with the early concepts of the impact our progenitor would play on our Lich.  I love the messed up faces of our liches but I wish there bodies looked more like the warframe who killed them.   This maybe goes against lore as there only ever being a single warframe of each type.  But picture the grineer hollowing out a warframe and wearing it like armor, doesnt have to be totally accurate but atleast half the look of each warframe.   Even more importantly I really wanted our Lich's to mimic our color palette.

Kuva Weapons were nice but my personal goal with the Lich system was to use my Female warframes and give them BRIGHT colored armor and then murder a Larvaling to create A brightly colored Lich that looks like all the sexy warframes in the game and then recruit them for my railjack crew.   Maybe a Rhino, atlas, nidus, nekro or harrow to...   Definately a Grendel as Captain of the ship!!   Instead our Lichs are pretty blah looking and our color pallette has no impact except on the color of the gun and that doesnt stick if you change any of the other colors on it. 

 

[Eljureo]

There are some good parts about this. 

Instantly we can fight high level grineer.

Then there are bad parts.

You need to farm quva for relics, then relics for mods, then hunt for rng lichness, then do it few more times,.. In short it takes forever.

But that is only if you try to get the lich.

I try to enjoy high level missions, it is fun and engaging, especially with new melee.